Gulf Oil Slick

[dreadgeek]

In the last few days there have been credible reports from Houston, New Orleans, Florida, Tennesee, Ohio, and South Carolina of an oily substance coming down in the air and in the rain. Crops are dying. It's not just in the Gulf water anymore. This chemical rain is not from Corexit in the waters of the gulf. It is coming from the aerial spraying by thr Air Force of Corexit and other dispersants. Also see Dr. Riki Ott on Utube.

Credible reports from where? Do you have a link? A link that ISN'T a YouTube video? Do you have link to this on any of the following:

Scientific American
New Scientist
Nature
Science News

If there is a credible report--credible by what standard? Yours? Riki Ott's? The scientific community? If you are going to say that there's a credible report, don't you think that you would enhance your own credibility if you provided a link?

I recall you also saying that there were credible reports that any minute now, a giant methane bubble would burst under the Gulf creating a tsunami that would kill untold numbers of people living along the coast. No methane bubble, no tsunami, I presume that those hundreds of thousands or millions of people are still--on the whole--alive. So is there anything you can produce to corroborate this credible report? Thanks in advance.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Because I'm a relatively impatient AND because I have grown sadly accustomed to unsinkable rubber duckies* I thought I would Google Corexit rain to see if any *actual* credible reports were to be had.

The first two pages of results either link to Prison Planet (not exactly what I would call a reliable source) or Above Top Secret (also not reliable) or are references TO those sites. In other words, if this is happening there is not--in the entire community of chemists, geophysicists, physicists, material scientists or environmental scientists no one has reported on this. SciAm appears to be unaware of it, as does Science News, New Scientist, or Nature. Those four comprise the most reliable scientific reporting available to the general public. I find it absolutely incredible that the scientific community seems unaware of this.

Keep in mind that scientists from the various involved disciplines have been monitoring this incident from the moment it started and have been providing reliable--if not as exciting or breathless--reportage on the matter. Yet, here we have yet another breathless claim that the doom is upon us and yet there's no corroboration outside of conspiracy theory sites. The thing is, in two weeks, they (and the unsinkable rubber duckies that spread these rumours about) will move on to something else.



Credible reports from where? Do you have a link? A link that ISN'T a YouTube video? Do you have link to this on any of the following:

Scientific American
New Scientist
Nature
Science News

If there is a credible report--credible by what standard? Yours? Riki Ott's? The scientific community? If you are going to say that there's a credible report, don't you think that you would enhance your own credibility if you provided a link?

I recall you also saying that there were credible reports that any minute now, a giant methane bubble would burst under the Gulf creating a tsunami that would kill untold numbers of people living along the coast. No methane bubble, no tsunami, I presume that those hundreds of thousands or millions of people are still--on the whole--alive. So is there anything you can produce to corroborate this credible report? Thanks in advance.

Cheers
Aj

[MsDemeanor]

Aj, this might be the source. As best I can tell, folks are taking a local news story and weaving theories in to a new story.

linkyloo (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ybenjamin/detail?blogid=150&entry_id=65552)

[Toughy]

Aj.........there may be some credibility to crop damage, mind you I am saying may be.

go through the entire thing.....there is a UTube newscast from a local station about mysterious crop damage and dead birds....

http://s-data.current.com/1t0io4c#ixzz0s0PbLxgK

The thing I did not know about was the Air Force is spraying that crap........

http://s-data.current.com/news/92513258_video-air-force-delivering-wide-spread-aerial-spraying-of-corexit.htm

[Andrew, Jr.]

On the news tonight, it was stated that the oil spill has leaked across all across the gulf states, and is in Louisiana's famous lake. Boaters are now pulling their sailboats and powerboats out of the water. There are 50 million migrating birds that are now disoriented due to the spill. BP is paying people to try to get some of the migrating birds to change their eating habits. This makes me sick. I hope and pray that BP goes bankrupt after all is said and done.

[Ebon]

I just want to vent about this Oil Slick or catastrophe going on in the gulf right now. It's ridiculous!! The earth is pretty fucked. Human beings that only care about profits can suck it and mean people suck. Can't they do something? All the technology in the world and they haven't figured out anything?! Golf Balls to cover up the hole?!! Are you dipshits fucking kidding me!!! Ugh I hate poeple...Ok i'm done. Thanks for listening. lol

[AtLast]

BP board game foreshadows Gulf disaster
eBay.com

In BP Offshore Oil Strike, the first player to earn $120,000,000 wins.
LONDON -- An obscure BP-themed board game in which players aim to avoid rig disasters has become an unexpected hit at a British toy museum.

BP Offshore Oil Strike was released in the early 1970s and allows up to four players to explore for oil, build platforms and construct pipelines. The first player to earn $120,000,000 wins.

Its "hazard cards" include "Blow-out! Rig damaged. Oil slick clean-up costs. Pay $1million."

BP announced Monday that it has spent $3.12 billion dealing with the Deepwater Horizon spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

The game was recently donated to the House on the Hill Toy Museum in Stansted, Essex.

"The parallels between the game and the current crisis... are so spooky," museum owner Alan Goldsmith told Britain's Metro newspaper. "The picture on the front of the box is so reminiscent to the disaster with the stormy seas, the oil rig and an overall sense of doom.

"I was just knocked over by how relevant this game is, despite being made some 35 years ago, to BP’s troubles today."

Goldsmith said the game is worth about £75 ($115).

- By Jason Cumming, msnbc.com

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/06/4621357-bp-board-game-foreshadows-gulf-disaster?Gt1=43001

This IS eerie! Take a look at the box cover via the link!

[Selenay]

http://www.wpbeginner.com/digg/oilinfographics.gif

Just for a little perspective.

>Source (http://www.wpbeginner.com/worst-oil-spills-in-worlds-history-infographic/)<

>Found via (http://contexts.org/socimages/2010/07/09/comparing-oil-spills/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SociologicalImagesSeeingIsBel ieving+%28Sociological+Images%3A+Seeing+Is+Believi ng%29)<

[Jesse]

Yikes! I am thinking this type of leadership would be even more devastating and harmful than all of the oil spills put together!

Jesse

Sneaky motherf*uckers! If I was king, BP would be liquidated, it's assets used to restore all the damages, and the people responsible would be publicly executed without a trial, warrent, or judge's signature. If a serial killer can get the chair, so should the folks who murder and destroy on such A MASSIVE SCALE.

[AtLast]

Monday is when BP will be announcing its 2nd quarter earnings..... ought to be interesting!

Last week BP's Tony Baloney the CEO was attempting to round up new investers in the Middle East. This kind of gives me hope that BP might try to keep itself solvent which seems better in terms of it actually being in this for the long haul and making restitution.

I know, I know, I am probably being far too optimistic... Sometimes, however, I do think of what is at stake for big oil in this in terms of what BP does. This could prove to be one major blemish the industry world wide that it cannot afford.

Guess I am more of a glass half-full kind of person. Or I am really in deep denial! Just having a huge problem thinking about the people in the Gulf that really need BP to pay up.

So, do you all think we will finally get the message that alternative fuels must be developed and put the resources in this that are vitally needed?

[MsDemeanor]

The map seems to be a bit off....I wonder how old it is. Even the information in the 'found via' link says that the numbers on the map don't match to the widely reported numbers. The most glaring issue, and why I wonder when the map was created, is that the Deepwater spill has exceeded the size of Ixtoc, yet is substantially smaller on the map. Also, the Gulf War spill estimate seems high - although any 'official' estimate of a spill during a US war would, in my mind, be questionable and quite likely understated.

[Selenay]

The map seems to be a bit off....I wonder how old it is. Even the information in the 'found via' link says that the numbers on the map don't match to the widely reported numbers. The most glaring issue, and why I wonder when the map was created, is that the Deepwater spill has exceeded the size of Ixtoc, yet is substantially smaller on the map. Also, the Gulf War spill estimate seems high - although any 'official' estimate of a spill during a US war would, in my mind, be questionable and quite likely understated.


The information for the iconograph comes from the ITOPF.

>ITOPF (http://www.itopf.com/)<


Yes and no, to the map being off (I'm doing further research to ensure that the statistical data on ITOPF is as accurate as people are implying it is.) because the source collects data from both published and UNpublished sources.

I know I hate wikipedia (and maybe you do, too), but this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spills#Largest_oil_spills) is a fairly well documented link to the largest oil spills in recent / reported history.

As for their actual numbers, the ones I have checked so far are not exorbitant, but they are the highest range of the projected spill amounts.

Comparing between measurements (metric tonne vs kg vs lb) all of their reported measurements (except the recent spill which, yeah, kind of hard to keep consistent...) is accurate to within twelve percentage points. Another possible explanation is that they have also added in a percentage for oil lost to the environment that cannot be accurately assessed. That, and there are discrepancies for almost ALL of the spills saying that the media underrepresented the oil spilled in... Well, given that we all know how much the gulf numbers have changed, I'm sure you know what I mean.

Even so; I meant the iconograph not as a factual basis for argument but more as a demonstrative comparison in scale to the disasters that have historically happened and continue to happen on a daily basis, and the issue in the gulf. I was really trying to make the point that this has happened before on smaller (though that isn't depicted on the graph) and much larger scales. . . And we don't hear about it. At all.


I'm going to continue researching the iconograph creator and the data and will keep you posted, if you'd like.

Edited to add: Oh yeah I forgot! The map's creator has an updated version of the map on his site, to reflect the increasing size of the spill, I just couldn't do a link to it at the time of my post for... some reason, I forget what, but you can check his website out.

[Gayla]

I heard something on the news on the radio on my way home tonight about potential containment by Monday. All I've been able to find about it is -

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/09/gulf.oil.disaster/index.html?hpt=T1

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

[Glenn]

BP just signed another record contract called the Caspian Project. A panel of only 3 judges rejected Obama's 6 month moratorium of offshore drilling..

[AtLast]

BP just signed another record contract called the Caspian Project. A panel of only 3 judges rejected Obama's 6 month moratorium of offshore drilling..

As the money turns....

Last night I saw some actual scientific news about the long term effects we are looking at. What the hell is wrong with people? We should be putting billions into this research and demanding these people be part of the entire regulation processes for off-shore drilling.

My head spins when I think about the future tangle of suits that will come as the real long-term health effects of this become evident.

I also keep thinking about all the tangles of drilling pipes that are underneath the Gulf... that we really don't know about. There is so damn much we do not know that is out there after years of cover-ups.

[MsDemeanor]

I heard something on the news on the radio on my way home tonight about potential containment by Monday. All I've been able to find about it is -

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/09/gulf.oil.disaster/index.html?hpt=T1

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

MSNBC has been reporting all week that the cap is being removed and replaced by a better one this weekend. Guess I kinda assumed that all of the media had been reporting the story all week. BTW, CNN is doing a story on it right now.....



Selenay, thanks for the answers and your continued hard work researching the numbers :)

[AtLast]

I heard something on the news on the radio on my way home tonight about potential containment by Monday. All I've been able to find about it is -

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/09/gulf.oil.disaster/index.html?hpt=T1

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

Just pretty much the same. Oh, and possibly an additional tanker at the top for more oil collection with an additional pipe bring oil up to surface. Hummm.. don't know if this is one of the newly re-configured kind of tankers???

MSNBC has been reporting all week that the cap is being removed and replaced by a better one this weekend. Guess I kinda assumed that all of the media had been reporting the story all week. BTW, CNN is doing a story on it right now.....


Selenay, thanks for the answers and your continued hard work researching the numbers :)

Yes, Thank you Seleny!

Yes, I want to be hopeful about this diffferent cap. Ugh, just when I am, a report comes along with info about everthing that could go wrong that might cause more oil (other than when the old cap is off and the new being seated) to spew. Or, things/pipes, etc. under everything exploding more and possibly making the relief wells non-functional when completed.

Touch and go....

[Selenay]

This is the other thing I meant to post, but got sidetracked with.

http://contexts.org/socimages/files/2010/07/Picture-14-500x162.png

Does it change your opinion to know that our biggest supplier is actually Canada?


>Source (http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html)<

[Toughy]

I think one of the problems with numbers is all the different measurements.........

British tonnes
US tons
gallons
barrels

I do believe it's truth that the permanent solution to the gushing lives in the relief well (s).

I wish I could remember where I heard or read the following and will do some searching around maybe later:

There are something like 2000 abandoned wells in the Gulf that have been capped and never looked at for years and some of them decades. Talk about accidents just waiting to happen.

Apparently all the oil companies are continually spraying toxic shit dispersant at every active well head, because they all leak a little bit of oil all the time. From what I know about drilling oil on land, that is probably a true statement that all wellheads leak a little. They spray the dispersant so the leaked oil stays in the water column and doesn't get to the surface. Remember when some idiot said that oil tar balls wash up on the beaches fairly regularly, so just maybe the tar balls are not from the Deep Horizon?

[AtLast]

I think one of the problems with numbers is all the different measurements.........

British tonnes
US tons
gallons
barrels

I do believe it's truth that the permanent solution to the gushing lives in the relief well (s).

I wish I could remember where I heard or read the following and will do some searching around maybe later:

There are something like 2000 abandoned wells in the Gulf that have been capped and never looked at for years and some of them decades. Talk about accidents just waiting to happen.

Apparently all the oil companies are continually spraying toxic shit dispersant at every active well head, because they all leak a little bit of oil all the time. From what I know about drilling oil on land, that is probably a true statement that all wellheads leak a little. They spray the dispersant so the leaked oil stays in the water column and doesn't get to the surface. Remember when some idiot said that oil tar balls wash up on the beaches fairly regularly, so just maybe the tar balls are not from the Deep Horizon?

Oh, this is something I think about! One of the more scary things in all this to me. I just don't believe that this disaster will be the last or the largest we deal with. I don't want to believe this, but do not see any movement in a direction of prevention going on that is getting much serious attention or funds. Just a whole lot of anti-tree-hugger type snarls from the usual sources.

http://eater.com/archives/2010/05/25/meanwhile-in-the-gulf-coast-1.php

One of many links about the research by Philippe Cousteau. Also, I saw some new stuff by him and a woman he researches with today on CNN.


I also heard this (what I bolded in your post above) somewhere... thinking maybe NPR? I'll look too, I usually have NPR or Green Radio on when I am listening to radio. Just seems like I would of heard about this on NPR. Ugh.. but what program!

[MsDemeanor]

There are something like 2000 abandoned wells in the Gulf that have been capped and never looked at for years and some of them decades. Talk about accidents just waiting to happen.
You're off by a decimal point - it's 27,000, according to an Associated Press investigation. I think that Rachel mentioned this on her show recently.

linkyloo (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38113914/ns/disaster_in_the_gulf/)

[Toughy]

You're off by a decimal point - it's 27,000, according to an Associated Press investigation. I think that Rachel mentioned this on her show recently.

linkyloo (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38113914/ns/disaster_in_the_gulf/)

I originally thought it was about 20,000 but I just couldn't quite grasp that kind of number.....laughin.....I thought I must have misread or misheard....

thanks for the correction....

The sea bed must be just littered with well heads ...............shaking my head.....

[AtLast]

I originally thought it was about 20,000 but I just couldn't quite grasp that kind of number.....laughin.....I thought I must have misread or misheard....

thanks for the correction....

The sea bed must be just littered with well heads ...............shaking my head.....

Really, huh? Craziness.... One big web of possible disaters without ways to deal with them! Sometimes I think about the magical thinking that continues on in adulthood. Or, just transforms into adult arrogance. Why would anyone believe that this mess would not lead to something like this? And now, what is it going to take to get people to realize this may be only the start of things like this? Well heads and miles of pipe un-checked, buried under what sustains human life!!

[Glenn]

Really, huh? Craziness.... One big web of possible disaters without ways to deal with them! Sometimes I think about the magical thinking that continues on in adulthood. Or, just transforms into adult arrogance. Why would anyone believe that this mess would not lead to something like this? And now, what is it going to take to get people to realize this may be only the start of things like this? Well heads and miles of pipe un-checked, buried under what sustains human life!!

The reason why the oil industry has'nt improved it's clean-uo technology in 50 years is because there have'nt been enough oil spills! I'm not kidding you Folks. This was their actual excuse! I could'nt make this up if I tried!

[Toughy]

The reason why the oil industry has'nt improved it's clean-uo technology in 50 years is because there have'nt been enough oil spills! I'm not kidding you Folks. This was their actual excuse! I could'nt make this up if I tried!

I did hear a big oil guy (maybe it was BP or Haliburton) say that.............shaking my head............

[AtLast]

The reason why the oil industry has'nt improved it's clean-uo technology in 50 years is because there have'nt been enough oil spills! I'm not kidding you Folks. This was their actual excuse! I could'nt make this up if I tried!

No, you are not making this up!Unfortunately.....

[Rockinonahigh]

Intresting..In my local sunday paper an artical by the AP said that in the gulf theire are 3000 caped and abandoned wells that are ticking time bombs for a blow out.These wells are owned by many companys,most havent been touched in a decade or more.Also they have been caped in salt water wich has/is corodeig the piped as I type this,mant leak a littls from presure from the oil or a leak somewhere.On land the artical stated that over 35,000 land wells do the same..tho on land can be delt with easyer.No maintainance has been done to near any of thise wells since being caped.This dosent surprise me one bit,I can count the caped wells driveing down the road hear near everywhere I drive,both gas and oil let me say its an ugly smelly sight.
The aritcal is in the sherveporttimes.com online addition.

[Toughy]

You're off by a decimal point - it's 27,000, according to an Associated Press investigation. I think that Rachel mentioned this on her show recently.

linkyloo (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38113914/ns/disaster_in_the_gulf/)

Rockin...........take a look at Msdemeanor's link (above) to an AP article.

And I think you misread the Shreveport Times article because here is the link:
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/article/20100711/NEWS01/7110332/Gulf-awash-in-27-000-abandoned-wells

[SuperFemme]

It seems Kevin Costner has been way ahead of the oil companies and his 15 year long $24 million dollar oil skimming boat is on the way to the gulf.


http://media.al.com/live/photo/kevin-costnerjpg-94908db36852ff61_large.jpg
Oil skimmer backed by Kevin Costner ready for work

Actor Kevin Costner, co-founder of Ocean Therapy, and BP COO Doug Suttles, right, talk during the announcement that the Ella G. vessel to will be deployed carrying Ocean Therapy's centrifuge system to separate oil and water,

Kevin Costner added a bit of Hollywood glitz, but it was the bright orange barge full of equipment counted on to scoop oil from the Gulf of Mexico that was the real star Thursday.

The Ella G, once an offshore supply barge, has been refitted to skim and separate oil spilling from BP PLC's blown-out well, making for a more efficient way to remove petroleum from the Gulf waters. It set sail for the first time Thursday.

"I know a lot of times you have been down on the ground and stayed down," Costner told workers and visitors who had come to see the latest in the fight against the oil spill. "But the machine I once dreamed of is here to help you."

The ship is now one of BP's "Vessels of Opportunity." It was retrofitted to receive oil and water from the skimmer, separate the oil and place it in storage tanks, and return the cleaned water to the Gulf, said Ed Dufrene, project manager for Edison Chouest Offshore, which supplied the barge and assembled the equipment on it.

The system was built in 10 days, and BP chief operating officer Doug Suttles said it offers many advantages. For instance, it can remove more oil, stay at sea indefinitely and skim in seas up to 10 feet. Most skimming vessels can't work in seas higher than 4 feet.

"It can make a big difference," Suttles said.

The Ella G, along with the C Rover, will configure boom in a J shape between them, Dufrene said. That will funnel the oil to the bright, yellow skimmer, which floats out from the Ella G attached to tubing and can skim more than 1 million gallons of liquid a day.

The oil is sent through a centrifuge system on the ship that separates the oil and water. Normally, the oily water has to be taken to a receiving point for separation, so doing that at sea is more efficient.

http://blog.al.com/live/2010/07/oil_skimmer_backed_by_kevin_co.html

[Rockinonahigh]

Toughy...I will check it out, tks for the heads up,these eyes arent what they use to be.I do know if we have any abadons wells anywhers the oil companys should check then for leaks to avoid any peobs.

[Toughy]

The link is right there for you and I sooooooooooooo relate to the eyes thing......laughin....

CA has a bunch of abandoned well heads in our coastal waters and here is a quote below a picture found on the right hand column of the AP article in the Shreveport Times:

In state waters, California has resealed scores of its abandoned wells since the 1980s, but in federal waters, the official policy is out-of-sight, out-of-mind. Neither industry nor government checks for leaks at the more than 27,000 oil and gas wells abandoned in the Gulf of Mexico since the late 1940s. (AP)

[AtLast]

Well, BP has the cap off.... so right now, the oil is gushing at full tilt.

Reports I have seen say BP could have this new cap on by Wednesday and it could actually get the flow down quite a bit. Some reports say to the point of almost stopping it entirely. Dunno.

No, I don't believe BP much at all, but have to say that I do have my fingers and toes crossed and just want this to work! It would mean less oil leaking out by the time the relief wells are drilled and that has to be something positive. Hard to find anything in all of this to be happy about.

[Andrew, Jr.]

BP should pay for all the concerts in the Gulf. Jimmy Buffet's concert last night was huge, and a success. All the proceeds were to help the struggling small business owners there.

The new containment cap is being lowered today. I am not sure if this cap will work or not. I really have very little faith in BP. I still see no reason why Mrs. Obama is going to Panama City. It makes no sense to me, but as being pr for her hubby. *Deep sigh*

I am so sick when I see the animals and nature just destroyed, and men acting like it is just another day at work for them. UGH!

[dreadgeek]

Sneaky motherf*uckers! If I was king, BP would be liquidated, it's assets used to restore all the damages, and the people responsible would be publicly executed without a trial, warrent, or judge's signature. If a serial killer can get the chair, so should the folks who murder and destroy on such A MASSIVE SCALE.

So you do not have a problem, at least in principle, with the Bush administration suspending habeus corpus, the 'enemy combatant' designation putting a person beyond either US civil law OR the Geneva conventions, black sites, extraordinary rendition or Guantanamo Bay? Because what you say above--and I understand the anger--sounds like you think precisely this kind of thing should happen to organizations like BP.

Blessedly, we (humanity) have largely given up on the Divine Right of Kings.

Cheers
Aj

[Glenn]

Yes, Aj; If I was a king..heads would be arollin over this! We are talking about millions of lives at stake. We are talking about the future of our planet, the collective destiny of life on Earth! But no.. no one seems to care, not as much as they should. If Bush was still in office America would be CRUCIFYING him. But it's OK for Obama to send troops down there to kick the media out? The Federa government is who insures these oil companies againest disasters of this magnitude and should have had better safeguards and accountability. BP and the industrial military own us, our laws. But what I am more concerned about are the methane hydrates that this drilling released,,which were slowly destroying us anyway, but they may be making it happen sooner.

[Toughy]

this video is about a month old and shows a crack in the sea bed floor close to the well head:

http://firedoglake.com/2010/06/18/breaking-bp-video-oil-leaking-through-cracks-in-floor-of-gulf/

[Corkey]

This isn't over by any stretch of the imagination. The scientists and engineers are going to have to find a solution.

[AtLast]

this video is about a month old and shows a crack in the sea bed floor close to the well head:

http://firedoglake.com/2010/06/18/breaking-bp-video-oil-leaking-through-cracks-in-floor-of-gulf/

Yup, and this is exactly why I so agree with Obama doing anything and everything within his power as president to halt drilling right now. Even when unemployment is what it is and the economic recovery is at a snail's pace. Not to mention the mid-term elections are around the corner and the Dems could lose control in one or both houses of Congress.

I do feel badly for lost work and wages for rig employees, but, what is down there (and top-side on every off-shore rig) needs to be looked at.

Actually, the major oil corporations are not fighting this as they know damn well that this disaster could turn their industry as they know it on its head!

As much as I am discusted by BP and other oil giants, it is going to take them to develop sound contingency plans for spills and monitor every freakin' pipe under the Gulf... and all over the world.
Governments do not have that kind of cash.

Our (the US) getting to a point in which we can tell big oil to shove it is many, many, years and alternative feuls development away...

[Toughy]

there are two kinds of wells........production wells and drilling wells.......this works the same for land or water based oil rigs.

they bring in a drilling rig and drill the hole in the ground, temporarily cap the well head and that rig is moved from over the well to some other place some where else.......no oil sucking out of the ground...that would be a drilling well. The Deep Horizon is a drilling well......there was no oil being produced from that well. The explosion that started this happened when they were temporarily capping the well so the production rig could come in.

they then bring in a new platform rig, set it above the capped well head...........uncap the well head and start sucking the oil out......that would be the production well. The Deep Horizon was not/is not a production well.

The moratorium Obama wants is ONLY on drilling rigs.....it would not in any way shape or form affect the over 3000 production wells in the Gulf. All the oil that is currently being sucked up will still be sucked up.........nobody is losing their job with a drilling moratorium.

[AtLast]

there are two kinds of wells........production wells and drilling wells.......this works the same for land or water based oil rigs.

they bring in a drilling rig and drill the hole in the ground, temporarily cap the well head and that rig is moved from over the well to some other place some where else.......no oil sucking out of the ground...that would be a drilling well. The Deep Horizon is a drilling well......there was no oil being produced from that well. The explosion that started this happened when they were temporarily capping the well so the production rig could come in.

they then bring in a new platform rig, set it above the capped well head...........uncap the well head and start sucking the oil out......that would be the production well. The Deep Horizon was not/is not a production well.

The moratorium Obama wants is ONLY on drilling rigs.....it would not in any way shape or form affect the over 3000 production wells in the Gulf. All the oil that is currently being sucked up will still be sucked up.........nobody is losing their job with a drilling moratorium.

Ah, Ha! Another piece of info that seems very lost with the GOP and rush! Also, am I correct in believing that many of the laid-off workers (from the wells actually under the moratorium) are getting some work in the clean-up efforts?

But, 'cept... all of the damn wells (and pipelines down under) out there worry me!

[Toughy]

I kind of really doubt any of those drillers are out of work.....I think it's only about 30-40 wells that are affected and there is always drilling work somewhere. They drill and cap wells all the time.

Who knows who BP is hiring for clean-up......those drillers make big ass bucks and I doubt BP is paying 30 or so bucks an hour to pick up tar balls and sludge............besides those drillers work for Haliburton and several other companies that do this kind of work all over the world.

[JustBeingMe]

I think BP should put out a huge reward for any NEW COLLEGE Engineers to develop something that will actually work to stop the darn oil from leaking. It's been months now, and nothing has done a darn thing. It's ruining the wildlife and creatures inhabiting the ocean. Hell they need to put all the fishing boats to work to help with the cleanup efforts along the shores too.

[Glenn]

I kind of really doubt any of those drillers are out of work.....I think it's only about 30-40 wells that are affected and there is always drilling work somewhere. They drill and cap wells all the time.

Who knows who BP is hiring for clean-up......those drillers make big ass bucks and I doubt BP is paying 30 or so bucks an hour to pick up tar balls and sludge............besides those drillers work for Haliburton and several other companies that do this kind of work all over the world.

I can tell you who they're hiring. Fishermen and women and folks who badly need a job. But they are getting sick left and right and BP says it must be food poisoning on the internet. They refuse to offer folks masks and protective gear, and they also make them sign a health waiver so folks can't sue them. In some places a non-disclosure agreement so fplks can't tell anyone what they see.
axisoflogic.com/artman/publis
thinkprogress.org/2010/06/03/bp-contract-media

[Oneida]

http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/lsesale/visual1.pdf

The above link is a lease/ sale map (pipelines). You can right click and zoom on an area to see the details of the lease blocks. This information is probably not too useful unless you know what you are looking at, except that it shows the areas of lease and how far out, etc.

http://www.offshore-mag.com/etc/medialib/platform-7/offshore/maps-and_posters.Par.36859.File.dat/0110%20GOM%20OS%20Map-ADs.pdf

This map is kinda useful as you can zoom in on specific regions. It shows gas pipelines, oil pipelines, oil fields and gas fields as well as identifying rigs. It is insane!

[AtLast]

I am amazed at the under-reporting of illnesses that relate to toxins going on! I know that the Gulf 's economy is a mess, but, there is no way I would be that water! Or, eat any fish or seafood from the Gulf (not eating either right now unless I know where it came from). I would be one of the people that canceled my vacation! Hell, I'm concerned about the disaster and clean-up workers! It doesn't look to me that they are given proper protective clothing, etc. Food poisoning, my ass!

[MsTinkerbelly]

BP: No oil leaking into Gulf from busted well

NEW ORLEANS – A tightly fitted cap was successfully keeping oil from gushing into the Gulf of Mexico for the first time in three months, BP said Thursday. The victory — long awaited by weary residents along the coast — is the most significant milestone yet in BP's effort to control one of the worst environmental disasters in U.S. history.

Kent Wells, a BP PLC vice president, said at a news briefing that oil stopped flowing into the water at 2:25 p.m. CDT after engineers gradually dialed down the amount of crude escaping through the last of three valves in the 75-ton cap.

"I am very pleased that there's no oil going into the Gulf of Mexico. In fact, I'm really excited there's no oil going into the Gulf of Mexico," Wells said.

The stoppage came 85 days, 16 hours and 25 minutes after the first report April 20 of an explosion on the Deepwater Horizon oil rig that killed 11 workers and triggered the spill.

Now begins a waiting period to see if the cap can hold the oil without blowing a new leak in the well. Engineers will monitor pressure readings incrementally for up to 48 hours before reopening the cap while they decide what to do.

Though not a permanent fix, the solution has been the only one that has worked to stem the flow of oil since April. BP is drilling two relief wells so it can pump mud and cement into the leaking well in hopes of plugging it for good by mid-August.

BP has struggled to contain the spill and had so far been successful only in reducing the flow, not stopping it. The company removed an old, leaky cap and installed the new one Monday.

Between 93.5 million and 184.3 million have already spilled into the Gulf, according to federal estimates.

[Apocalipstic]

I hope the cap stays, I keep hearing terrible stuff about how BP has nto wanted to cap the well, since then the oil escaping can be measured. I so hope that is not true and that the cap holds.

[AtLast]

BP: No oil leaking into Gulf from busted well

NEW ORLEANS – A tightly fitted cap was successfully keeping oil from gushing into the Gulf of Mexico for the first time in three months, BP said Thursday. The victory — long awaited by weary residents along the coast — is the most significant milestone yet in BP's effort to control one of the worst environmental disasters in U.S. history.

Kent Wells, a BP PLC vice president, said at a news briefing that oil stopped flowing into the water at 2:25 p.m. CDT after engineers gradually dialed down the amount of crude escaping through the last of three valves in the 75-ton cap.

"I am very pleased that there's no oil going into the Gulf of Mexico. In fact, I'm really excited there's no oil going into the Gulf of Mexico," Wells said.

The stoppage came 85 days, 16 hours and 25 minutes after the first report April 20 of an explosion on the Deepwater Horizon oil rig that killed 11 workers and triggered the spill.

Now begins a waiting period to see if the cap can hold the oil without blowing a new leak in the well. Engineers will monitor pressure readings incrementally for up to 48 hours before reopening the cap while they decide what to do.

Though not a permanent fix, the solution has been the only one that has worked to stem the flow of oil since April. BP is drilling two relief wells so it can pump mud and cement into the leaking well in hopes of plugging it for good by mid-August.

BP has struggled to contain the spill and had so far been successful only in reducing the flow, not stopping it. The company removed an old, leaky cap and installed the new one Monday.

Between 93.5 million and 184.3 million have already spilled into the Gulf, according to federal estimates.

Keeping my fingers and toes crossed! The idea that no more oil is going into the Gulf feels really good! Thinking this is monumental in terms of wildlife as well as people.

I know this will continue as just a very horrible disater, but, some hope helps!The clean-up as well as a permanent solution is still on-going, but, maybe this will help withe the long-term effects.

[Diva]

I hope the cap stays, I keep hearing terrible stuff about how BP has nto wanted to cap the well, since then the oil escaping can be measured. I so hope that is not true and that the cap holds.

Good Lord!

This whole thing has made me sick. I know I'm not the first person to say that.....

I SO hope this cap works and they keep drilling those "relief" routes or whatever they're called to capture the oil so that it DOESN'T pop off.

The whole thing is a tragedy on so many different levels....the sea life....the birds....the beaches....tourism and those whose livelihoods depend on the Gulf.

[Glenn]

Six remote control vehicles, monitoring the sub surface, have not detected oil since Friday morning. BP scientist have been conducting a seismic survey of the area surrounding the well to get a more detailed view. The results will be available today. Nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill

Scientists try to make sense of low well pressure- The Denver Post
A low pressure reading could mean oil is escaping- Business Week

[AtLast]

Six remote control vehicles, monitoring the sub surface, have not detected oil since Friday morning. BP scientist have been conducting a seismic survey of the area surrounding the well to get a more detailed view. The results will be available today. Nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill

Scientists try to make sense of low well pressure- The Denver Post
A low pressure reading could mean oil is escaping- Business Week

UGH... this may not be so good. But, frankly... the integrity of that well has to be in question. The whole damn Gulf is a tangle of pipes and wells to be questioned!

Thanks for this link!

[Glenn]

UGH... this may not be so good. But, frankly... the integrity of that well has to be in question. The whole damn Gulf is a tangle of pipes and wells to be questioned!

Thanks for this link!

Engineer Ken Price has just reported that he is moving his family away from the Gulf. He quotes at henry makow.com that "There are cracks in the sea floor leaking, and the pressure tests are revealing that the casing is not holding. It has already been perforated in numerous places. We also have a methane reading of 30%. If this continues the sea bed can swell than comtract and cause a major tsuami."

[AtLast]

Engineer Ken Price has just reported that he is moving his family away from the Gulf. He quotes at henry makow.com that "There are cracks in the sea floor leaking, and the pressure tests are revealing that the casing is not holding. It has already been perforated in numerous places. We also have a methane reading of 30%. If this continues the sea bed can swell than contract and cause a major tsuami."

Whoa!

I believe this possibility. And it makes me so damn angry! I am not a scientist and these folks know so much more than me. And for years people like this have been telling it like it is in terms of the possible ramifications of this kind of drilling. To no avail (deaf, billion dollar ears) and to just be considered nut-cake nay-saying tree-huggers. One hell of a way for them to come up right! So much damage and potential illness to all of us. And politics as usual.

[Toughy]

Engineer Ken Price has just reported that he is moving his family away from the Gulf. He quotes at henry makow.com that "There are cracks in the sea floor leaking, and the pressure tests are revealing that the casing is not holding. It has already been perforated in numerous places. We also have a methane reading of 30%. If this continues the sea bed can swell than comtract and cause a major tsuami."

ok.............Aj.........where are you.........

I have been without technology (most on purpose) since Friday morning.........

[MsDemeanor]

ok.............Aj.........where are you.........

I have been without technology (most on purpose) since Friday morning.........
Supposedly some engineer who worked for an oil company (what company? what kind of engineer? etc.) wrote an email to a web site (the subtitle or the web site is "Exposing feminism and the New World Order"). Of all the web sites in all the world, why would this engineer - if he exists - send this information to a fringy wingnut? The story was republished on another equally fringy freak site. If you google this supposed engineer you get three hits - the two tin foil hat sites, and, thanks to shoddy fact checking, us. What lovely company we now get to keep.

I'm no expert, but I imagine that a methane gas leak might be something akin to a submarine volcano. These volcanoes are quite common and rarely cause tsunami activity. There's one that's been active for decades in Lesser Antilles (named Kick 'em Jenny); the worst thing it's caused from what I've read so far is a 2M wave that took out a road. There's huge scientific debate right now about a possible tsunami in Italy from a submarine volcano, but that one involves a massive collapse of the ocean floor. That sort of activity is more in keeping with ocean floor movement that accompanies earthquakes - activity that does cause tsunamis.

Does that help?

[AtLast]

Engineer Ken Price has just reported that he is moving his family away from the Gulf. He quotes at henry makow.com that "There are cracks in the sea floor leaking, and the pressure tests are revealing that the casing is not holding. It has already been perforated in numerous places. We also have a methane reading of 30%. If this continues the sea bed can swell than comtract and cause a major tsuami."

Looks like this is goofy set of thoughts... I need a scientist type engineer too! It would really be nice to just be able to get real facts. I am upset enough with this mess. But, I guess a lot is out there in cyberspace.

Today I only heard a little about a new problem with the situation... have to try and get some info tomorrow. I just want this to take some good turns and see the clean-up go into full swing. Yup, I am mad at BP et. al... but right now, some good news and hope would feel really good!

[Toughy]

Supposedly some engineer who worked for an oil company (what company? what kind of engineer? etc.) wrote an email to a web site (the subtitle or the web site is "Exposing feminism and the New World Order"). Of all the web sites in all the world, why would this engineer - if he exists - send this information to a fringy wingnut? The story was republished on another equally fringy freak site. If you google this supposed engineer you get three hits - the two tin foil hat sites, and, thanks to shoddy fact checking, us. What lovely company we now get to keep.

I'm no expert, but I imagine that a methane gas leak might be something akin to a submarine volcano. These volcanoes are quite common and rarely cause tsunami activity. There's one that's been active for decades in Lesser Antilles (named Kick 'em Jenny); the worst thing it's caused from what I've read so far is a 2M wave that took out a road. There's huge scientific debate right now about a possible tsunami in Italy from a submarine volcano, but that one involves a massive collapse of the ocean floor. That sort of activity is more in keeping with ocean floor movement that accompanies earthquakes - activity that does cause tsunamis.

Does that help?

yes ma'am it certainly does help...........

[Diavolo]

Supposedly some engineer who worked for an oil company (what company? what kind of engineer? etc.) wrote an email to a web site (the subtitle or the web site is "Exposing feminism and the New World Order"). Of all the web sites in all the world, why would this engineer - if he exists - send this information to a fringy wingnut? The story was republished on another equally fringy freak site. If you google this supposed engineer you get three hits - the two tin foil hat sites, and, thanks to shoddy fact checking, us. What lovely company we now get to keep.

I'm no expert, but I imagine that a methane gas leak might be something akin to a submarine volcano. These volcanoes are quite common and rarely cause tsunami activity. There's one that's been active for decades in Lesser Antilles (named Kick 'em Jenny); the worst thing it's caused from what I've read so far is a 2M wave that took out a road. There's huge scientific debate right now about a possible tsunami in Italy from a submarine volcano, but that one involves a massive collapse of the ocean floor. That sort of activity is more in keeping with ocean floor movement that accompanies earthquakes - activity that does cause tsunamis.

Does that help?

Immensely.

Everyone should do their homework before posting anything anywhere. That's how knuckleheads get traction.

[JustJo]

So evidently the surface oil is clearing much more quickly than anyone expected and, while we naturally should have concerns about long-term impacts, this whole situation is looking more hopeful...

Of interest to me in this article...evidently the Gulf has thousands of natural oil seeps and, as a result, also has bacteria present that "eat" oil.

Interesting read from the NY Times right here. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/28/us/28spill.html?exprod=myyahoo)

[AtLast]

Argh.... so, you think safety regulations are honored by oil companies in the Gulf?

Wed Jul 28, 1:50 pm ET
NEW ORLEANS – Oil, natural gas and water are still spewing from an abandoned well hit by a barge on a Louisiana waterway near the Gulf of Mexico.

Crews work to cap new La. oil leak near Gulf

Coast Guard Capt. John Arenstam says a wild well company is working on a plan to shut down the well, which is north of Barataria Bay and has been leaking since early Tuesday.

Authorities had already been working there to avoid contamination from the much larger BP oil spill in the Gulf. Arenstam expects the company to present its shutdown plan at some point Wednesday.

It's not clear how much oil has spewed from the damaged wellhead but local officials say it's a minuscule amount compared to the BP spill.

The Coast Guard says a towboat was pushing the barge on Mud Lake when it hit the wellhead. The towboat captain told investigators the well was not lit as required.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100728/ap_on_re_us/us_oil_well_accident

[dreadgeek]

Engineer Ken Price has just reported that he is moving his family away from the Gulf. He quotes at henry makow.com that "There are cracks in the sea floor leaking, and the pressure tests are revealing that the casing is not holding. It has already been perforated in numerous places. We also have a methane reading of 30%. If this continues the sea bed can swell than comtract and cause a major tsuami."

Popcorn:

I know you're probably getting very weary of this and I can understand why. However, as long as you continue to put up histrionic posts with NO sourcing and NO links to reputable information sites then I will have no choice but to continue to do this.

Firstly, yes there are cracks in the sea floor however that is the *last* piece of actual information in this post. The rest is nothing but breathless fear mongering.

The 'methane reading of 30%' is meaningless meant to *sound* like data without actually being about anything. The methane reading is 30% of *what*, Popcorn? Are you saying that 30% of the gases in the Gulf of Mexico is methane? Are you saying that the methane gas level is 30% above normal? If it's the latter, that's actually not that big a deal because--wait for it--methane is dissolved in water! If it's the former then that figure is something somebody conjured up out of thin air because the last numbers, in one spot, was that the methane concentration (which is different than your 'methane reading' in that concentration actually *means* something) is 1,000,000 times above normal background. However, this was in one area, not far from the Deepwater Horizon site and in other surrounding areas, the methane concentration was either at or lower than background levels.

Secondly, one more time---THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE A TSUNAMI--it isn't going to happen Popcorn. It just isn't. The sea floor *does* have cracks in it but the crust of the Earth is not perfect and there are cracks and fissures all around the sea floor.

Thirdly, the person who actually proposed the 'killer methane' hypothesis to explain, for instance, the late-Permian extinction (500 mya) is on the record as saying that he rejects the hypothesis that a methane explosion is imminent in the Gulf of Mexico because--and I want to make this perfectly clear because this point is really, really important--his theory deals with an entirely different methane compounds than are present in the Gulf of Mexico. Your posts assume--entirely incorrectly as it turns out--that methane is methane but that is not the case. There are various methane compounds and the kind of methane compound that might have built up and then was rapidly released into the atmosphere causing a large reduction in biodiversity is *not* the kind of methane compound found in the Gulf of Mexico. It simply is not. Here is Dr. Gregory Ryskin (http://www.chem-biol-eng.northwestern.edu/people/faculty/ryskin.html) himself:

I also want to emphasize that in my theory, methane hydrates (clathrates) do not play any role.

So who should we believe? The man who actually proposed the theory that rapid release of methane caused a mass extinction and who has a faculty page (linked above) where you can actually go and check his cred or some guy who is nothing more than a name without any affiliation?

Lastly, the idea that the sea floor on the Gulf of Mexico is fractured beyond all repair is a hypothesis with *very* little actual support. There is a lot of breathless histrionics and verbal hyperventilation about it but actual empirical support? Not so much.

Science, Popcorn, is a process that proceeds--sometimes in a drunkard's walk fashion--toward higher levels of certainty while never reaching a point where certainty = 1. Just quoting some random numbers, pulled out of a hat does not make those numbers data. Claiming that someone is an engineer and *therefore* we should take that person seriously is an argument from authority and if that is the only support for your argument--and in this case your conjecture that we are on the verge of a massive methane blow-out is your argument--is almost certainly wrong. The only real support you have for this conjecture is that someone who claims to be an engineer, but does not say what kind of engineer he is*, who he works for, says that he is moving his family from the Gulf because 'the methane reading is 30%'. That's no support at all. I could claim that all is well because Carl Sagan once said that humanity is extinction proof. Does that mean that, in fact, we are extinction proof? No.

Lastly, to return to the issue of throwing numbers around as if they mean something. If I say that atmospheric oxygen readings are 20.2%! Have I said anything? No, although it appears that I have. Am I saying that atmospheric oxygen is 20% higher today than yesterday or am I saying that atmospheric oxygen is 20% of the total gaseous makeup? However, if I say "the Earth's atmosphere is 20% oxygen" NOW I have said something useful. Saying "methane readings are at 30%" sounds like you are saying something and on first glance it seems that you might be but we don't know what you mean by 30%.

When you are talking about a scientific topic--and everything that is NOT about BP or how the US government has handled this disaster is, in fact, a scientific topic--it is important to define your terms and make it clear what you are saying. Your post does not do this. Instead, it simply relies on fear to drum up more fear or other strong emotions which, it would appear, you accomplished with at least one person. Good for you! Instead of providing useful information you provided fear.

*Actually from what I could find--which is the same breathless article posted and reposted all over the Tin Foil Hat-o-sphere--he is a mechanical engineer. He does not, however, say which oil company he worked for.

[Glenn]

Aj; Why do you think our government is restricting our awareness of this profound event? it's a hard lesson for all of us to learn.

[dreadgeek]

Aj; Why do you think our government is restricting our awareness of this profound event? it's a hard lesson for all of us to learn.

Popcorn:

So now you're going to try to change the subject? I have not said anything about the government's behavior. Do I think that the government is trying to cover BPs corporate ass? Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. However, that is a *separate* issue from the breathless conspiracy-minded, fear mongering of your jeremiads about methane explosions and tsunamis. These are *separate* issues. In fact, one of the problems I have with the fear-mongering--and it IS fear-mongering--is that it distracts from real concerns (government underreporting of the toxicity of the dispersants, BPs continuing and historical malfeasance, etc.) and puts the attention on non-issues. The methane-bubble-will-kill-us-all meme is a distraction. It is the *least* likely major consequence of this disaster. The government isn't keeping this from the public, there's quite simply nothing to keep. As I pointed out, the type of methane compounds found in the Gulf of Mexico (methane hydrates) are *not* implicated in the great methane bubble explosion theory of extinction.

Now, is the government not stating the true risk of toxicity of the dispersants? Most certainly they are. Are they underestimating the final economic impacts? Almost certainly. Are they clamping down on BP and every other major corporation as they should? Most certainly they are not. However, what good does it do to whip up fear of an event that isn't going to happen? There is certainly lots to be upset with about this disaster However, spreading disinformation--and incorrect information is a form of disinformation--does no one any good.

So, back to the topic at hand. If the person who developed the methane bubble hypothesis says that the kind of methane compounds involved in his model of extinctions and the methane compounds in the Gulf of Mexico are so different that the latter are no kind of threat for the kind of catastrophe described by the former, why should we not give that more weight? Why should we trust the word of this engineer over the word of the man who developed the hypothesis? Why is it that we should focus our attentions on events that are so unlikely that their probability is not far from zero while not *actually* being zero when there are events whose probability is much closer to 1 that should have our attention.

I've answered your questions, popcorn, is there some reason that you are deserving of having your questions answered directly without changing the subject while I am undeserving of the same courtesy from you?

I am not pro-government, popcorn nor am I anti-government. I am pro-facts and pro-reality. What I stand opposed to is allowing bad memes to spread without challenge.

Cheers
Aj

[JustJo]

Now, is the government not stating the true risk of toxicity of the dispersants? Most certainly they are. Are they underestimating the final economic impacts? Almost certainly. Are they clamping down on BP and every other major corporation as they should? Most certainly they are not.
Aj

Aj, I think you've hit the nail on the head here...

We should have some major concerns about this situation, but panic-spreading "ain't it awful" scenarios isn't the most effective use of our time and focus.

I believe that we need to be doing some serious examination of safety standards and compliance with regard to offshore drilling, as well as ensure that we aren't poisoning ourselves with dispersants as we try to clean up the mess.

For me, government's primary focus right now should be to ensure that this scenario never occurs again, and that we are better prepared to handle spills in an effective, safe manner.

I don't see any evidence that BP has turned over a new leaf as a good corporate citizen...and that's a bigger concern to me than the ravings of any particular individual looking for their "moment in the sun" on the internet.

[dreadgeek]

Aj, I think you've hit the nail on the head here...

We should have some major concerns about this situation, but panic-spreading "ain't it awful" scenarios isn't the most effective use of our time and focus.

I believe that we need to be doing some serious examination of safety standards and compliance with regard to offshore drilling, as well as ensure that we aren't poisoning ourselves with dispersants as we try to clean up the mess.

For me, government's primary focus right now should be to ensure that this scenario never occurs again, and that we are better prepared to handle spills in an effective, safe manner.

I don't see any evidence that BP has turned over a new leaf as a good corporate citizen...and that's a bigger concern to me than the ravings of any particular individual looking for their "moment in the sun" on the internet.

Jo:

This is precisely my concern with all kinds of rumour and fear mongering--that it distracts from the genuine issues. From the 9/11 Truther to the Birthers to now, I dunno, the Oilers(?) the conspiracies serve as a distraction from the genuine issues. If there is, for instance, a giant methane pocket that is going to explode, release lethal levels of methane into the atmosphere and cause a Permian-style extinction there is nothing anyone can do about it. Not a damn thing. We would be as powerless in the face of that disaster as 19th century people would have been in a K-T extinction-sized rock (about the size of Manhattan island) were to have slammed into the Atlantic ocean in 1850. There would have been a day of terror and then years of eerie, eerie silence. So if that kind of event is going to happen, worrying about it does absolutely no one any kind of good.

On the other hand, we *can* do something about letting corporations run rampant across the social and physical landscape, having the pretense of personhood when convenient (being able to make campaign contributions in the name of 'free speech') but magically shedding personhood when inconvenient (liability or criminal violations). That struggle may be difficult, it may be grueling, it may even take a long time and require constant vigilance lest we are once again lured by the siren's song of unrestrained, unregulated capitalism but it is a *winnable* struggle.

I like to draw a distinction between engineering problems and hard (or scientific) problems. How, if at all possible, to prevent a giant release of methane from 5000 feet under the sea is a scientific problem. If it were a threat (and here I have to reiterate that it is not a threat in the Gulf of Mexico) there would be lots of basic science to be done just so that we could reduce the problem down to one of engineering. What to do about corporate control of the United States is, on the other hand, an engineering problem. By that I mean that we *know*, at least in broad outline, the shape of the solution and the real problem is how to get from here to there.

BP should face both civil and criminal penalties and it is nothing short of a travesty that the top brass at BP and its board are not fearing for the very future of their company. We can do something about that. But if everyone along the Gulf coast were to be panicking and trying to get away from the Giant Methane Bubble that Ate New Orleans then that energy and media attention will be taken up with an event caused by a non-probable issue while the real-world, probable events and actual crisis are ignored.

Cheers
Aj
(Proud member of the reality-based community)

[dreadgeek]

I'm no expert, but I imagine that a methane gas leak might be something akin to a submarine volcano. These volcanoes are quite common and rarely cause tsunami activity. There's one that's been active for decades in Lesser Antilles (named Kick 'em Jenny); the worst thing it's caused from what I've read so far is a 2M wave that took out a road. There's huge scientific debate right now about a possible tsunami in Italy from a submarine volcano, but that one involves a massive collapse of the ocean floor. That sort of activity is more in keeping with ocean floor movement that accompanies earthquakes - activity that does cause tsunamis.

Does that help?

Methane escapes to the atmosphere all the time. The thing is is that the actual science behind the hysteria is really quite interesting. I apologize for the derail but this is really cool stuff and, I think, provides a useful counterpoint to the "oh my god we're all gonna die!" stuff.

There have been 5 major mass extinctions in the history of life on this planet and we are in the middle of the sixth. They are (from most recent to least):

1. Holocene event 12,000 - present. Most likely cause: Us
2. K-T extinction 65 mya. Most likely cause: Meteor strike
3. Triassic-Jurassic extinction 205 mya. Most likely cause: Unknown. Possible meteor strike
4. End Permian event 251 mya. Most likely cause: Unknown.
5. Late Devonian 360 - 375 mya. Most likely cause: Unknown
6. End Ordovician 440 - 450 mya. Most likely cause: Unknown

So the three oldest extinctions we don't know why. The one everyone wants to figure out is the End Permian because that was huge. By way of comparison the K-T extinction (the one everyone knows because it took out the dinosaurs) took down 17% of all families, 50% of all genera, and 75% of all species. The End Permian extinction took out 57% of families, 83% of all genera, 96%! of all marine species and 70% of all terrestrial species. An event that big--and that is as close to life has come to being wiped out since bacteria got things booted up--begs an explanation. The interesting hypothesis which seems to have the *best* data to support it is that there was a huge sudden release of methane into the atmosphere. Methane is a very powerful greenhouse gas and there is a 6 degree C rise in temp at the right place in the geological record.

That's the background behind this whole methane bubble hysteria. The thing is, the methane compounds that may have caused the Permian event are not present in the Gulf of Mexico in any significant amounts and they are *not* the form of methane compounds being detected in elevated levels.

Look, both the Universe and the Earth would be perfectly happy to see us all go. Hell, the Universe positively *wants* to kill us--big rocks, gamma-ray bursts, galactic collisions, the Sun expanding and that's just the ways I can think of off the top of my head. It is endless in its creativity of ways to shuffle our species off this mortal coil. The Earth isn't that much more benign toward our presence. But this man-made catastrophe in the Gulf of Mexico isn't a threat to the species. It's a threat to a way of life and it *should be* (but won't be) a threat to BPs continued existence but it isn't an extinction level event by any stretch nor will it precipitate one.

Cheers
Aj

[MsDemeanor]

Aj; Why do you think our government is restricting our awareness of this profound event? it's a hard lesson for all of us to learn.
I'm gonna guess that we'd all be hard pressed to find an instance where any government made it's citizenry aware of all of the details of a negative-impact event during said event.

[dreadgeek]

I'm gonna guess that we'd all be hard pressed to find an instance where any government made it's citizenry aware of all of the details of a negative-impact event during said event.

If that example exists in history, I have yet to see it. I wonder if it has occurred to some of the conspiracy folks that part of the government's silence is that they simply don't know. We throw around words like 'unprecedented' but this event is truly something unlike anything that has happened before.

Cheers
Aj
(Proud member of the reality-based community)

[AtLast]

If that example exists in history, I have yet to see it. I wonder if it has occurred to some of the conspiracy folks that part of the government's silence is that they simply don't know. We throw around words like 'unprecedented' but this event is truly something unlike anything that has happened before.

Cheers
Aj
(Proud member of the reality-based community)

Seems to me that there are quite a few unknowns going on with this situation. From the start, I have been amazed at how so many people think that answers were going to just fall from the sky in stopping the spill as well as cleaning it up. Sure, I wanted that too- and yesterday- but the reality is that the technology is sorely lacking along with all of the other contributing factors.

My major concern is- given this crisis and finding out what we do not know and need to find out- will the resources and political will get behind doing so? Will we appropriately fund the engineers, chemists, physicists, environmental scientists, biologists, etc., to build a safety net against this in the future? Will we bring bright people into this loop and pay them well for their expertise? Or, will magical thinking continue allowing the profit-motive to prevail? And it seems to me that a global effort needs to be at the core of advancing this knowledge... yanno, planet earth. There appears to be some countries that have much better know-how than the US or the UK in all of this.

Oh, yes, reality-based thinking is in order!!

[violaine]

david godfrey grew up in my neck of the woods- central florida, and he used to surf at a popular site in new smyrna beach near the jetties. he encountered sea turtles often while out in the water, and turned his interest of marine life into a career. i thought i'd share a story about 'dawn', a leatherback, and the tracking of sea turtles as they migrate toward the oil spill. there are other stories on the main page.

http://www.conserveturtles.org/pressreleases.php?page=n_dawn_oilspill

[JustJo]

Since the popular news is no longer following this story so intensely, I thought you might like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/us/06spill.html?_r=1&th&emc=th) update from the NY Times.

[weatherboi]

Hi folks!!!

Science Friday had some scientists on the show July 30th.


http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=128876055&m=128875896

[AtLast]

On one hand, I feel joy that the oil is no longer gushing from this well. On the other, I feel a sense of dred because I believe so much has been and will be swept under the carpet in terms of the real effects this will have on the Gulf.

Will this get buried under the next story of a big disater? Just because this leak is capped, does not mean there is much to do in development of ways to stop this kind of mess. Will we actually change policy and institute safe guards? or, will people forget about this just because we don't see oil floating on top of the water or the tar balls on beaches? Will people realize just how toxic this is in the long run for wildlife and the food chain if we don't have live video streams of that oil gushing? Will resources to avoid something like this again be allocated? Will deep-water drilling continue to be accepted and given approval?

Yanno.... see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil...

[JustJo]

On one hand, I feel joy that the oil is no longer gushing from this well. On the other, I feel a sense of dred because I believe so much has been and will be swept under the carpet in terms of the real effects this will have on the Gulf.

Will this get buried under the next story of a big disater? Just because this leak is capped, does not mean there is much to do in development of ways to stop this kind of mess. Will we actually change policy and institute safe guards? or, will people forget about this just because we don't see oil floating on top of the water or the tar balls on beaches? Will people realize just how toxic this is in the long run for wildlife and the food chain if we don't have live video streams of that oil gushing? Will resources to avoid something like this again be allocated? Will deep-water drilling continue to be accepted and given approval?

Yanno.... see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil...

I totally agree with what you're saying here. It seems like an unfortunate reality that most of the time we only deal with the thing that's jumping up and down in front of our faces...another reason we aren't taking any significant action to prevent global warming (but that's another whole thread). :blink:

[weatherboi]

i wonder how many of these are going to be found.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129304546&sc=fb&cc=fp

[AtLast]

i wonder how many of these are going to be found.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129304546&sc=fb&cc=fp

Probably quite a few! This is so not over! I am happy that that damn well isn't gushing any longer, but, feel just as freaked as when this all began.

I hope people don't forget about this in terms of what has to happen with deep water drilling. And the Gulf people are a long ways off from any kind of security in this mess. And then there is the upcoming hurricame season that is looking pretty severe. GeezzzzzzUUUSSSS!!!!

[Rockinonahigh]

U bet when hurricane season hits, I bet a dollar to a donut it will churn up the unseen oil they say dosent exist..then what r they gonna do or say about it...oh scuse me I thought........ it was gone.