Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Thinker]

From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

From my perspective, many people have come here (and gone into other discussions) and attempted to engage in challenging conversations that they do not see eye-to-eye on and, quite possibly, will always disagree. Those are hard conversations with opposing viewpoints; they're not "taking people to task". Again, that's my perspective on it.

And, to me, it feels frustrating and silencing when people who do not want to be challenged say that the opposing view being presented is silencing. Personally, and it's not just in this thread, we are watering down the "silencing" thing to where we won't be able to see it or really know what it means when it really *does* happen. And, yes, I do know it happens.

Actually, I think if I come into a discussion and share *my* experience from *my* *me* space and someone comes in and tells me that my post is silencing, then I feel like *they* are trying to silence me.

So again... It's a catch 22.

Bulldog, it's sad to me but it has become very clear to me over the past few months that you and I see these things VERY differently. I don't recall that it was ever that way some years back.

But things to do change. I know that a lot about my life has changed in the past two years, and I also know that my heart, soul, and spirit have not......nor has my mind. Maybe it's the physical changes in me that you have come to object to; I don't know. But I'm still the same person, and I still stand for the same things I always have.

What I have noticed here is that when someone responds to you (or Martina or whomever) with an opposing position, you call foul. *That*, to me, is frustrating. How are we supposed to have a hard conversation about this stuff? I don't feel we can.

So if you feel those types of replies are "silencing" then you should probably report that......all of them.

[BullDog]

Well Thinker, it has felt silencing to me. Perhaps the topic can be discussed in another thread at another time. I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

Edit: I don't like the insinuation about me objecting to your physical changes. I don't object to anyone's physical changes. That is his or her personal decision.

[T D]

I can't say that I've experienced this male privilege yet as people are still waffling between she/he with me. It's so odd, I can go into one store and be called he or sir, then turn right around and go into a different store and be called she or ma'am. Now that I'm letting a little facial hair grow this will most likely change though.

It should be very interesting (to say the least) to experience the world differently from what I've been experiencing it for the past nearly 60 years. Since I feel like the same person I've always felt like I forget (for the most part) that how others experience me may change my privilege and/or position in the world at large. I personally don't think that this is going to be an easy adjustment, and I'm mostly stunned at how so many people think that my decision to start using "T" was easy and is about wanting privilege or something. This whole concept is completely foreign to me.

I really don't believe that anyone ever knows exactly what another person experiences internally. And what I find fascinating as all get out is how people will "speculate" on what something is "about" for others without even checking in with those others.

Just a few of my thoughts at the moment :)

[nycfem]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but I wanted to add my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues. To further clarify, a man who wants to distance himself completely from the umbrella of queer culture (which, imo, includes heterosexually identified FTMs, lesbians, butches, femmes, etc.) would not join this site and engage so thoughtfully as I see happening within our community.

[Corkey]

Well, call me stunned. Thanks to Jack, Thinker, EZ Mr Bent WB and the rest who stood up to ignorance. Good thing I slept in, and had to shovel snow. :|
Back to the point.

[AtLast]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but I wanted to add my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues. To further clarify, a man who wants to distance himself completely from the umbrella of queer culture (which, imo, includes heterosexually identified FTMs, lesbians, butches, femmes, etc.) would not join this site and engage so thoughtfully as I see happening within our community.

Also, gender identity politics is an offshoot of Second Wave feminism.

[Melissa]

I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

.



Actually, Martina somewhat did. She was talking about bio men and trans men experiencing privilege in the same way. This is what started the discussion of privilege and why it is not a black and white issue, and how privilege is also effected by race, class, appearance etc among many other things. Martina states that all men have privilege and therefore must be aware of how they wield that privilege. She goes on to say that even if a man does not feel privileged he is and must be aware of it at all times. She did not differentiate between bio men and trans men.

Here is her quote "It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not. "

I have noticed a lot of antipathy toward transmen in this thread and on other threads. The privilege issue is brought up a lot. Then the silencing issue. I agree with Thinker that it becomes a Catch 22 and the silencing issue is brought up when a debate begins.

We can't debate and discuss if posters keep pulling out of the thread, get mad, or object by saying he or she feels silenced. For me, it has gotten to the point where I no longer know what it means when someone says they feel silenced. No one is stopping anyone from posting or stating their point of view or describing his or her personal experience. In fact, on this site, posters bend over backward to make sure members feel able to post, debate, and discuss and bring in personal experiences and points of view. But the silencing issue and the privilege issue does begin to feel, more and more to me, as a verbal weapon being wielded against trans posters. It puts them on the defensive.

For me, I learn through debate and discussion and testing my own experiences against those of others. So right now Bulldog, I am debating you, mentioning some things I think and have noticed, and generally putting my two cents worth in. This is not an attempt to shut you up but an attempt to counter, debate, discuss, offer an opinion and I hope you will take it as that.

My post was not written in anger or frustration but a genuine concern for gender, women's, and trans issues and a desire for more understanding about the issue of privilege. I think all these issues are interconnected in all of our lives regardless of how we identify in terms of sex, gender or sexuallity. You should know I am a lesbian and married to a transman. I identify as lesbian first and femme second. Because of my marital status and partner I'm sure there are many people who would deny my claim to being a lesbian.


Melissa

[BullDog]

Actually, Martina somewhat did. She was talking about bio men and trans men experiencing privilege in the same way. This is what started the discussion of privilege and why it is not a black and white issue, and how privilege is also effected by race, class, appearance etc among many other things. Martina states that all men have privilege and therefore must be aware of how they wield that privilege. She goes on to say that even if a man does not feel privileged he is and must be aware of it at all times. She did not differentiate between bio men and trans men.

Here is her quote "It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not. "

I have noticed a lot of antipathy toward transmen in this thread and on other threads. The privilege issue is brought up a lot. Then the silencing issue. I agree with Thinker that it becomes a Catch 22 and the silencing issue is brought up when a debate begins.

We can't debate and discuss if posters keep pulling out of the thread, get mad, or object by saying he or she feels silenced. For me, it has gotten to the point where I no longer know what it means when someone says they feel silenced. No one is stopping anyone from posting or stating their point of view or describing his or her personal experience. In fact, on this site, posters bend over backward to make sure members feel able to post, debate, and discuss and bring in personal experiences and points of view. But the silencing issue and the privilege issue does begin to feel, more and more to me, as a verbal weapon being wielded against trans posters. It puts them on the defensive.

For me, I learn through debate and discussion and testing my own experiences against those of others. So right now Bulldog, I am debating you, mentioning some things I think and have noticed, and generally putting my two cents worth in. This is not an attempt to shut you up but an attempt to counter, debate, discuss, offer an opinion and I hope you will take it as that.

My post was not written in anger or frustration but a genuine concern for gender, women's, and trans issues and a desire for more understanding about the issue of privilege. I think all these issues are interconnected in all of our lives regardless of how we identify in terms of sex, gender or sexuallity. You should know I am a lesbian and married to a transman. I identify as lesbian first and femme second. Because of my marital status and partner I'm sure there are many people who would deny my claim to being a lesbian.


Melissa

Martina's quote- if someone is recognized as a man they are in a privileged position and when in interactions with women they need to be aware of that. That is what I have interpreted Martina's statements to mean.

I don't know what that has to do with the fact that many men's individual lives are challenging- which could be due to being trans, race, class, etc.

That is not to say I don't think transmen shouldn't talk about the challenges they face.

Transmen can get fired from a job if their trans status gets discovered. Butch women may not get the job to begin with because when we show up for the interview we are not what people are expecting a woman to be. A femme woman may be offered less money for a job than a man would. A black man may not get a job that a white transman would. We all have challenges and all of our privileges are situational.

I am white. I have white privilege. That doesn't mean my life has been a bed of roses or hasn't been impacted by the fact that I am a woman and a lesbian. However, I don't feel the need to qualify any of those things when white privilege is discussed.

[Corkey]

Martina's quote- if someone is recognized as a man they are in a privileged position and when in interactions with women they need to be aware of that. That is what I have interpreted Martina's statements to mean.

I don't know what that has to do with the fact that many men's individual lives are challenging- which could be due to being trans, race, class, etc.

That is not to say I don't think transmen shouldn't talk about the challenges they face.

Transmen can get fired from a job if their trans status gets discovered. Butch women may not get the job to begin with because when we show up for the interview we are not what people are expecting a woman to be. A femme woman may be offered less money for a job than a man would. A black man may not get a job that a white transman would. We all have challenges and all of our privileges are situational.

I am white. I have white privilege. That doesn't mean my life has been a bed of roses or hasn't been impacted by the fact that I am a woman and a lesbian. However, I don't feel the need to qualify any of those things when white privilege is discussed.

Bully the part I highlighted. It isn't a pissing contest. Not all FTM look like men, not all Butches look like men. People get discriminated against for a myriad of reasons, some because of their looks some because of who they are. Point being we all have to fight against the inequities every single day in what ever body we as humans occupy.

[BullDog]

Bully the part I highlighted. It isn't a pissing contest. Not all FTM look like men, not all Butches look like men. People get discriminated against for a myriad of reasons, some because of their looks some because of who they are. Point being we all have to fight against the inequities every single day in what ever body we as humans occupy.

Yes, exactly Corkey. I agree.

[DapperButch]

I admit it. My emotions got the better of me on that one. It's kinda funny because we were just discussing not taking "bait" earlier in this thread, and I took it hook, line, and sinker on this one!

Oops...

I think it is great that you guys stepped in!

[Thinker]

my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues

This is nice. I never really thought to put it that way. And I certainly like this particular perspective over "why would a (trans)man even come to this site". :)

Thanks.:bunchflowers:

[AtLast]

Trying to think of a way to be able to discuss some of the similarities that are coming up for me with FTM's and male identified butches (I'm female identified). Always fascinates me when I read about things like (TD brought this up) being called sir and ma'am all in the same day, just in different stores. I also feel areas of male privilege come up.

But, I don't feel comfortable doing this here- this is in the Trans Zone and the theme of the thread is for FTMs and male identified butches- yet I sure feel crossover. Certainly this can apply with physical violence issues.

I don't want to start another thread in another zone in which FTMs or male identified butches wouldn't feel invited into to give their opinions as well as femmes, MTFs (or any identification thereof).

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all of us and maybe that is a way to transcend "speculation," generalizations," etc.

[Thinker]

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all us

I agree with you on this with my whole heart.

[DapperButch]

I don't want to start another thread in another zone in which FTMs or male identified butches wouldn't feel invited into to give their opinions as well as femmes, MTFs (or any identification thereof).

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all of us and maybe that is a way to transcend "speculation," generalizations," etc.

AtLast,

Maybe you could put it in the butch zone (since you are butch), and then you would be inviting the others to join. Title the thread by what genders you want to "compare" (used loosely)...(sounds like you would like to add female butch to the comparison of male id butch and FTM). Then in the opening post, indicate who all you would like/prefer to participate (FTM, butches, femmes, all other identities)

I do think, however, that there might already be a thread somewhere "comparing" (again, wish I had a better word), the different masculine identities, so maybe you want to look first and just post on it.

Good luck if you decide to get something going!

[SelfMadeMan]

Trying to think of a way to be able to discuss some of the similarities that are coming up for me with FTM's and male identified butches (I'm female identified). Always fascinates me when I read about things like (TD brought this up) being called sir and ma'am all in the same day, just in different stores. I also feel areas of male privilege come up.

But, I don't feel comfortable doing this here- this is in the Trans Zone and the theme of the thread is for FTMs and male identified butches- yet I sure feel crossover. Certainly this can apply with physical violence issues.

I don't want to start another thread in another zone in which FTMs or male identified butches wouldn't feel invited into to give their opinions as well as femmes, MTFs (or any identification thereof).

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all of us and maybe that is a way to transcend "speculation," generalizations," etc.

I'm going out on a limb here, and I can only speak for myself... but I have no problem with you adding your perspective to the conversation here. I feel like there is such a huge divide between the Butch community (regardless of whether you are male or female IDd) and the FTM community, that making you go start your conversation elsewhere would just be adding to that. It is such a huge concern for me and for so many of my brothers, this nasty little 'thing' between some Butches and FTMs. I would really like to keep the conversation going and see if we can't get to some common ground.

[justpjhere]

I'm going out on a limb here, and I can only speak for myself... but I have no problem with you adding your perspective to the conversation here. I feel like there is such a huge divide between the Butch community (regardless of whether you are male or female IDd) and the FTM community, that making you go start your conversation elsewhere would just be adding to that. It is such a huge concern for me and for so many of my brothers, this nasty little 'thing' between some Butches and FTMs. I would really like to keep the conversation going and see if we can't get to some common ground.

i have to agree with you...there is a barrier between male identified butches and FTM and there doesnt need to be.

if we seek acceptance by the world in general we have to stand asunited brothers...embrace our differences as well as similarities and stand as strong allies...we all share the same community.

[SelfMadeMan]

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

[justpjhere]

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

totally agreee brother...we all fall to earth with our own identities and ill defend with my life the right anyone has to be who they want to be...

dont beat yourself up for past feelings...we learn and grow from error and we move on and live not just side by side but in unity...

[DapperButch]

I'm going out on a limb here, and I can only speak for myself... but I have no problem with you adding your perspective to the conversation here. I feel like there is such a huge divide between the Butch community (regardless of whether you are male or female IDd) and the FTM community, that making you go start your conversation elsewhere would just be adding to that. It is such a huge concern for me and for so many of my brothers, this nasty little 'thing' between some Butches and FTMs. I would really like to keep the conversation going and see if we can't get to some common ground.

I think this is a good idea. I didn't feel comfortable recommending it since I do not indentify as FTM or Male Ided butch (I define as TG Butch...which to me is between male and female). Subsequently, I didn't think it to be my place, but I do think that if no one minds it would be a great idea.

[Chazz]

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

Nor do I see SelfMadeMan as having had beliefs that are uncommon to this community. I simply see SelfMadeMan admitting to them which is, I think, good. It's a begin point.

Just because a conversation gets heated and/or messy doesn't mean it isn't necessary or productive. The fact that conversations such as this have been stifled within the LGBTQ community IS, I believe, a source of much of the divisiveness.

Coming into a discussion like this with the expectation that there can be a meeting of the minds is unrealistic. There is history and cultural (writ large) factors that must be parsed before that can happen, if at all. This too is for the good.

What would the world be like if we all of a single mind? It wouldn't be perfection, it would be us ceding our autonomy.

We are all in transition in the truest sense of the term. Identity is, after all, an ongoing evolutionary process. I am not the dyke now that I was a 20, 30, or 40. A sincere thank you to the Universe for that. :clap:

There are two, separate and distinct ontological "arguments" going on in this discussion. For the sake of brevity let's say, Thinker represents one, Bulldog the other. In the end, a complete meeting of the minds may not be possible. Certain lived experiences under patriarchy may preclude that possibility. So be it ! What's the alternative? Catastrophizing over the lack of perfect community?

Would it really be so terrible if there really are places where we diverge in our experiences and belief systems? The fact is we do. It isn't any body's job to make another feel good with her/himself. That tenet too often gets lost in the mix.

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” ~ Jalal ad-Din Rumi

[SelfMadeMan]

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

[BullDog]

Thanks SelfMadeMan for your invitation to participate.

Sometimes I honestly think what we have in common is the discrimination that we face, and it feels kind of uncomfortable for me to rally around persecution as something to bond over. However in a political sense it is quite smart and necessary.

Also, I am not sure if the statements about Brotherhood were intended for all butches and transmen or just male identified butches and transmen. If it was the latter, it makes sense. If it was the former, I don't relate. I don't really relate all that well to someone I don't know calling me Sister either, but if we are talking inclusion I don't want to always have to translate everything in my head. I never hear anyone talking about Butches and Transmen uniting together in Sisterhood.

Transmen are part of the butch femme community because it resonates with them. I get that and appreciate that. I understand that transmen feel the complexities of their lives are not understood and they are branded as the "enemy." We can bond over the fact that we are in a community together and there are some commonalities we share, for sure. I too have been sirred and maa'med all in the same day on many occasions.

To me a simple request from a femme to be aware of male privilege when in the presence of women and the harm that can potentially cause women due to the inequalities between men and women that exist in society should be listened to and not met with such hostility and defensiveness. She was talking about interpersonal interactions.

Also, in my opinion, the root of homophobia and transphobia is sexism. It is in everyone's best interest to understand the roots and intersections. I don't believe in any shape or form that Homophobia or Transphobia can be wiped out with sexism fully in place. Transphobia is specific but it also comes from sexism. Take for example the case of Nikki Araguz for those who are familiar with her story. She is denied being taking seriously as a woman but at the very same time being treated in a very sexist manner as the "gold digging" woman. When transmen are denied their male status they are viewed as "not real men." These cases are transphobia but they are also very rooted in sexism. Right now the Republican Party in the United States is waging a war on women. This won't make it easier for queers or trans people either when trying to limit women or put them into place.

So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.

[Stacy]

Thanks SelfMadeMan for your invitation to participate.

So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.

I love this last paragraph. It definitely strikes a cord for me. I am lucky that my husband is also a feminist. He is very proactive in women's Issues and equality for women. He has helped me raise two very strong, feminist daughters. He has helped me empower them, and he has helped me empower myself. I am grateful for that every day. He has not forgotten the community where he spent a large portion of his adult life. He oftens speaks out and stands up for the rights of all those in the GLBTQIAA community, not just the T. I believe what affects one of us, affects us all.

[SelfMadeMan]

Sometimes I honestly think what we have in common is the discrimination that we face, and it feels kind of uncomfortable for me to rally around persecution as something to bond over. However in a political sense it is quite smart and necessary.

It is a large part of what we have in common... although I don't really see it as rallying around persecution in the bonding sense, rather, rallying around a shared issue in solidarity. We can bond over lots of issues, that may or may not have anything to do with gender. You and I may share a love of some of the same movies, we may both love cooking (I do), we may both ride Harley's... even though our struggles may be more different than they are similar, we can get along.

Transmen are part of the butch femme community because it resonates with them. I get that and appreciate that. I understand that transmen feel the complexities of their lives are not understood and they are branded as the "enemy." We can bond over the fact that we are in a community together and there are some commonalities we share, for sure. I too have been sirred and maa'med all in the same day on many occasions.

For me, having nowhere else that felt like it fit, I did spend over 10 years as part of the lesbian community, it's where I grew up. I feel a certain investment in the issues that affect the entire GLBT community, but especially, women. As I look back, no, I don't think I was ever a lesbian in the true sense of the word, because I always felt male. But that doesn't change the fact that I lived it to some extent and know the issues - do they all affect me now, as a man? No. But I care.

To me a simple request from a femme to be aware of male privilege when in the presence of women and the harm that can potentially cause women due to the inequalities between men and women that exist in society should be listened to and not met with such hostility and defensiveness. She was talking about interpersonal interactions.

Agreed. I had/have no issues at all with being asked to be aware of male privilege. I have no problem accepting that I gained male privilege with transition. I choose to see this as a positive, because I use that privilege to try and affect the (bio)men in my life, and those I encounter on a daily basis.


So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.[/QUOTE]

Again, agreed. I think ALL members of the GLBT community should be aware of one another, and not only respect the individual experiences, but have an attitude of solidarity. What does it say to the outside world, the homophobes, if we're attacking one another? I truly feel each of us is interesting in our diversity, I look at the rainbow flag and see the different colors and think of all the unique, wonderful members of the community at large. Maybe I'm naive, but I think we CAN all learn to get along and fight ALL oppression. I would also like to add that I am a Psychology/Gender & Women's Studies major... I care deeply for what women have to say and I know I'm not alone in that. I'm not patting myself on the back, just want to point out that just because I transitioned, didn't mean I had anything against women... I just wasn't one :-)

[Thinker]

There are two, separate and distinct ontological "arguments" going on in this discussion. For the sake of brevity let's say, Thinker represents one, Bulldog the other.

I would just like to go on record as saying that I don't actually believe Bulldog and I are on opposing sides of any argument. Personally, I believe we share many core values and beliefs.

I think the scope of these types of discussion is broader for me because I am a transman. I also don't believe for one second that I am right about any of this and that Bulldog is wrong......or vice versa. I think the "thing" that fires us up just happens to be different. And I think that's okay. I also think, Chazz, that lends itself to what you were saying too.

I applaud your entire post. I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the part I quoted above.

Respectfully,
Thinker

[justpjhere]

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

i totally agree with you! yes we have very different issues, but also some similar...still that doesnt mater...we are all brothers of the same family and maybe im juvenile in my thinking but i believe in a unison and solidarity...

until we embrace each other, differences and similarities we will never truely gain any acceptance...we pass too much judgement in my opinion...we are all people living in the same world...im a man of peace and i judge no one, and i expect that no one will judge me based on what i have or dont have as part of my physical anatomy...

the world already judges us, why do we bicker and judge each other??? just my 2 cents...:hangloose:

[BullDog]

I would just like to go on record as saying that I don't actually believe Bulldog and I are on opposing sides of any argument. Personally, I believe we share many core values and beliefs.

I think the scope of these types of discussion is broader for me because I am a transman. I also don't believe for one second that I am right about any of this and that Bulldog is wrong......or vice versa. I think the "thing" that fires us up just happens to be different. And I think that's okay. I also think, Chazz, that lends itself to what you were saying too.

I applaud your entire post. I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the part I quoted above.

Respectfully,
Thinker

I agree with this. I don't think Thinker and I represent opposing sides, although I do think I get the short hand Chazz was trying to describe in a few words. I do think that a meeting of the minds may be possible even if people are not coming from the same perspective if there is genuine good will and the recognition that we have to fight sexism together- for our shared as well as separate best interests.

There are very real reasons why women need to be very vigilant about sexism.

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

[SelfMadeMan]

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

I totally see what you're saying. I know many Transmen who are angered by the suggestion that they are different from bio-men. Speaking only for myself, and my experience, I view MYSELF differently than other men. And it's in a good way. I certainly don't feel like less of a man than a bio man, but our life experiences are vastly different, and I come into this with real life experience being seen by society as a woman. I've experienced opposition as a woman, I've seen how men exclude a woman's point of view in a conversation, I've experienced how differently men look at me now that I am "one of the guys" - how they look me directly in the eye when speaking to me, and it makes me sick. So no, I am not the same as a bio-man. I wasn't raised being taught by society that I am better, stronger, or more capable. I have experienced both sides, and I am proud to be a feminist and I am passionate about gender equality. And THAT is where I think we have a lot of common ground.

[BullDog]

I totally see what you're saying. I know many Transmen who are angered by the suggestion that they are different from bio-men. Speaking only for myself, and my experience, I view MYSELF differently than other men. And it's in a good way. I certainly don't feel like less of a man than a bio man, but our life experiences are vastly different, and I come into this with real life experience being seen by society as a woman. I've experienced opposition as a woman, I've seen how men exclude a woman's point of view in a conversation, I've experienced how differently men look at me now that I am "one of the guys" - how they look me directly in the eye when speaking to me, and it makes me sick. So no, I am not the same as a bio-man. I wasn't raised being taught by society that I am better, stronger, or more capable. I have experienced both sides, and I am proud to be a feminist and I am passionate about gender equality. And THAT is where I think we have a lot of common ground.

Yes, I can totally understand this. Different is not less than.

I am a different sort of woman being a butch. It doesn't make me less than other types of women.

Yes, I think we have a lot of common ground.

Thanks Mike!

[EnderD_503]

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

There's a difference between the way a person wants to be seen and the way the majority of society actually sees them. Because of that, there are a lot of social/economic issues and challenges that touch transmen that don't touch straight cismen to the same degree no matter how a transman wants to be seen. While a transman is no less of a man than a cisman, he does have different challenges, because of the way society perceives trans people, that will likely persist throughout his life. Those challenges affect the way he walks through the world.

I think that's the issue for a lot of people under the "trans" umbrella.

They may not always or necessarily want to be seen as different when it comes to gender, but the statistical reality is that we are at a much higher risk than other men. That, I think, is where a distinction should be made for the purpose of improving human rights issues.

It also depends on the transman/woman. Some want to be seen as specifically transmen/women, or no gender specifically, while others want to be seen as simply male/female. Or a combination of identities. I don't think any one way of looking at it can be applied to all trans people.

[BullDog]

There's a difference between the way a person wants to be seen and the way the majority of society actually sees them. Because of that, there are a lot of social/economic issues and challenges that touch transmen that don't touch straight cismen to the same degree no matter how a transman wants to be seen. While a transman is no less of a man than a cisman, he does have different challenges, because of the way society perceives trans people, that will likely persist throughout his life. Those challenges affect the way he walks through the world.

I think that's the issue for a lot of people under the "trans" umbrella.

They may not always or necessarily want to be seen as different when it comes to gender, but the statistical reality is that we are at a much higher risk than other men. That, I think, is where a distinction should be made for the purpose of improving human rights issues.

It also depends on the transman/woman. Some want to be seen as specifically transmen/women, or no gender specifically, while others want to be seen as simply male/female. Or a combination of identities. I don't think any one way of looking at it can be applied to all trans people.

Yes I understand that. Not being seen as how we want to be seen- that is true for most all of us. Butch is not well understood and we are not always seen as the women we are (for those of us who do view ourselves as women).

Yes, I agree that the risks and challenges that trans people face should be identified and worked on/fought against.

[EnderD_503]

Also have a question to other male/trans identities whether male id butch, FTM, transguy etc. Do you find or have you found that your identity shifts at all? The way you perceive yourself versus the way you explain yourself to people depending on the environment? If you don't id specifically as a FTM or transguy but present as male id'd butch or a related identity, do you find yourself partially adopting a trans identity in order to better explain yourself to others in ways they might find easier to understand? Or perhaps as you go through your transition? Or maybe you find it more and more of a convenience or necessity from an activist perspective?

Or on the other hand: if you do or have identified as FTM or transguy specifically, do you find yourself letting go of the FTM/transguy labels as you go through your transition and no longer need access to certain resources? Distance yourself from a common trans pursuit for equality? Desire to simply melt away from a trans/ftm id?

In general, no matter your male/trans id, how has your relationship with the word "trans" changed over time (if it has at all)? If so, how and why do you think that is?

[Corkey]

[QUOTE=EnderD_503;297518]Also have a question to other male/trans identities whether male id butch, FTM, transguy etc. Do you find or have you found that your identity shifts at all? No. The way you perceive yourself versus the way you explain yourself to people depending on the environment? If you don't id specifically as a FTM or transguy but present as male id'd butch or a related identity, do you find yourself partially adopting a trans identity in order to better explain yourself to others in ways they might find easier to understand? No, I don't adopt FTM for myself because I'm not transitioning. Or perhaps as you go through your transition? Or maybe you find it more and more of a convenience or necessity from an activist perspective? I explain I am male ID TG Butch, I'm not FTM and the two are separate identities.

Or on the other hand: if you do or have identified as FTM or transguy specifically, do you find yourself letting go of the FTM/transguy labels as you go through your transition and no longer need access to certain resources? Distance yourself from a common trans pursuit for equality? Desire to simply melt away from a trans/ftm id?

In general, no matter your male/trans id, how has your relationship with the word "trans" changed over time (if it has at all)? If so, how and why do you think that is? My ID remains the same, I don't co-opt others ID's as that is not how I ID.

[DomnNC]

First off, let me say I'm an old dude and all these abbreviations and splitting hairs is just so unnecessary at times and is what is divisive among us at best. I'm not trying to be judgemental here but let me ask this:

Do any of ya'll really really think that when we identify as male or have transitioned that there is a magic switch we throw where we forget, just totally forget all the struggles, hostility, bias and discrimination that we felt when we were readily female identified? Think about it, if you male identify and unless you have transitioned, (and still in some cases if you work at the same employer) that we still aren't met with the same discrimination, bias, judgemental attitudes and hate as a readily identifyable female?

We have to fill out the same paperwork as any female has to in order to get a job and for tax purposes, and if you haven't transitioned but male identify you still have to check that lil box labeled female, so therefore you are still met with the same bias, judgemental attitudes and discrimination as any other woman whether you female identify or not, there is no male privilege extended to those who male identify but still have to check that lil box (well not in my experience anyway).

Furthermore, I happen to think that those who haven't transitioned but male identify (and in some cases when you have transitioned) have opened up the job market quite a bit for other women. Those jobs where the idea was that "oh women can't do that" were proven wrong when they hired a butch woman or one who male identifies, so therefore it opened the doors for other women who followed however they may have identified because it was proven that yes, a woman can do that job!

I don't for one instant believe that anyone from this website who has transitioned has forgotten their struggles, discrimination, bias, abuse etcetcetc and what they went thru when they still had to check that little box that said female. I have seen nothing but support offered for those who female identify from the guys here who have transitioned and those who male identify as well. These guys are still the same person that they always were, your inner core and most heartfelt beliefs don't change just because you take a shot of T or transition. You are still aware of the discrimination, bias etcetc but only at a heightened awareness now because you have added something else to the pot to make you be discriminated against.

Most people don't get transitioning and unless you've truly felt you were born in the wrong body then most people will never ever get it or understand it and attempt to treat guys who transition the same as a "real cis man", declare they have the same rights/privileges as a cis man when that is simply not the truth. You may look the part, you may act the part but there is always someone who will know the truth of how you became a man and that leaves open the possibility of violence and discrimination on a whole other level.

In all the talks of male privilege I have ever seen here no one here has denied that to some extent those of us who pass and those of us who have transitioned get a little bit of "privilege", but not to the extent of a cis male. It's those posts that hammer and attempt to silence the male identified and those who have transitioned that I don't agree with at all. Even when one tries to discuss the issue within the thread it doesn't matter what anyone says there is always someone screaming you're silencing me, it gets old, really old. Either you want to discuss it AND listen or you don't! But you can't have a one sided discussion and expect the male identified and the transitioned to sit back and have it tossed in their face on a daily basis that they have ALL this privilege, they don't. The way I see a discussion is you discuss it, then it's over with, unless someone blatantly tosses "male privilege" at you in the course of a discussion over something else, it's not something to be thrown into almost every single thread here where there is a discussion of something totally unrelated going on (not in my opinion anyway). I've not seen one guy who has transitioned or one guy who male identifies tell a woman here to put a sock in it, to shut up, to leave the thread, etcetcetc. It's almost like some of you want us that male identify and can pass or those who have transition to lay down on our bellies, crawl like a snake and beg your (general) forgiveness for simply being who we are. Chuckles, I for one will never do that. I have no apologies to make to anyone for being simply who I am.

I look at my transitioned brothers as still just the same brother I always had, he's no different inside than I am. He knows my struggles intimately as I know his. He just happened to have been fortunate to mesh his outer self with his inner self, he's still the same inner self he always was.

One other thing to think of, us that male identify or who have transitioned can often be in a place to promote the hiring of women. Before I left my full time job due to my back disability, when I started working there, there were men in every place of management at the family owned company I worked for, I was the lone one that had to check that lil box that read female. I was put on the hiring committee for the management positions within the company in the office and some in the plants and remote locations. Before I left that company every management position at the main location was occupied by women with the exception of the Owner (obviously who was the President) and the Vice-President, there were others at the remote locations who were put into management. Just a little something to think about when you (general) feel like bashing those of us who can pass and those who have transitioned. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has done that.

Thanks for listening!

[Corkey]

I don't check those boxes. If they can't figure it out, they don't get an answer.

[DomnNC]

I hear ya Corkey, sometimes I don't either but being in the position I was in the last company I was often privy to personnel files as well. I pulled mine and some ass checked it for me!! lol.

[Chazz]

I agree with this. I don't think Thinker and I represent opposing sides, although I do think I get the short hand Chazz was trying to describe in a few words. I do think that a meeting of the minds may be possible even if people are not coming from the same perspective if there is genuine good will and the recognition that we have to fight sexism together- for our shared as well as separate best interests.

Thank you for understanding my tendency to speak in concise, short hand.

As some one who had visited this discussion many times over many years, I'm not sure a meeting of the mind can occur based on good will alone. Perspective matters when it comes to prioritizing ones personal and political agenda.

There are very real reasons why women need to be very vigilant about sexism.

Indeed, there are.

I, too, subscribe to the notion that sexism is the root of all homophobia and transphobia.

[Chazz]

Thank you for the exchange, SelfMadeMan.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them.

Yes, I understood that.

Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community.

Yes, there are different groups under the umbrella. One group self-defines primarily on the bases of sexual orientation. Another on the bases of gender. Some lesbians see gender as fluid others as an artificial construct. And so on.... I am aware of the issues.

The reality is there are a number of smaller umbrellas under the LGBTQ umbrella. This is not an occasion for "pissing contests"; it's a situation that calls for mutual accommodation where and when possible. When that is not possible, as is sometimes the case, respectful disengagement is an alternative.

Would that the expectation be: We meet where and when we can, so that the burden of unanimity be lifted from all our shoulders.

I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities.

Yes, most of us do "live it every day".

Implied in your phrase: "....BOTH our communities", is an acknowledgment that people are differently located. It's all most of us can can do to navigate our own personal landscapes, let alone someone else's.

With few exceptions, I don't expect that my issues need be any one else's issues, including, people standing under my little umbrella.

Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles.

To the extent that there is mutual disrespect, I don't think it necessarily has to do with the expectation that one abandon her/his "issues and struggles", except when it does. I think it has to do with not respecting other peoples' opinions. Which is not to say that all opinions are equally respectable. A moral relativist, I'm not.

However, I do think that there has sometimes been a prioritizing of concerns within the LGBTQ community that doesn't necessarily encompass everybody's "issues and struggles". Take the EDNA controversy for instance.

It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real.

Catastrophizing is real.

I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted.

My neighbor, Dick, is a dyed in the wool homophobe. I appreciate his voting in agreement with me, nevertheless.

While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about...

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.

Respect is earned, provisional, contingent. Beyond respecting my fundamental human rights, you are under no obligation to respect, or agree, with me. If I choose to feel disrespected, it's because you're triggering something in me.

[BullDog]

No DomnNC, I don't think any of those things you are charging women with and don't know of any that do.

I am happy there are people like Mike to talk to who don't get angry and defensive when the topic of male privilege comes up and who treat me with respect and listen and share their own thoughts and experiences. Those are the types of people that I can relate to and give me hope that common ground can be reached.

[DomnNC]

I didn't charge women with anything Bulldog, I do believe I said ALL or ya'll which encompasses ALL quite a bit. I'm not angry and defensive, I stated my opinion just as you do yours. The only thing I stated was the constant derailing of threads here with charges of male privilege, which happens to be the truth for the most part. I've yet to run across a topic in the Trans zone (admittedly I haven't looked at every single one) where someone runs in and starts derailing the thread with male privilege. But thanks for listening and respecting my viewpoint as well, perhaps you should reread and "listen" this time. This thread started out with someone merely asking the difference between male-identified butchs vs trans, look where it is now.

[SelfMadeMan]

Also have a question to other male/trans identities whether male id butch, FTM, transguy etc. Do you find or have you found that your identity shifts at all? The way you perceive yourself versus the way you explain yourself to people depending on the environment? If you don't id specifically as a FTM or transguy but present as male id'd butch or a related identity, do you find yourself partially adopting a trans identity in order to better explain yourself to others in ways they might find easier to understand? Or perhaps as you go through your transition? Or maybe you find it more and more of a convenience or necessity from an activist perspective?

Or on the other hand: if you do or have identified as FTM or transguy specifically, do you find yourself letting go of the FTM/transguy labels as you go through your transition and no longer need access to certain resources? Distance yourself from a common trans pursuit for equality? Desire to simply melt away from a trans/ftm id?

In general, no matter your male/trans id, how has your relationship with the word "trans" changed over time (if it has at all)? If so, how and why do you think that is?

Great questions! I personally never partially adopted my Trans ID. I literally left Texas, moved to Boston, and transitioned. I went to support group at that time with a couple of guys who were testing the waters by remaining female IDd at work, home, etc and only going out as Trans in the community. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just am an all or nothing kind of person I guess. I needed to make a clean break from the me I felt wasn't honest, to the man I am.
As for labels... I get annoyed by them, and wish they weren't so necessary, although I get why they just are sometimes. I don't really ever use FTM anymore, and not to get into the semantics of it, but I've grown uncomfortable to its very implication with how I ID. I've also strayed away from using the term Transgender, and prefer Transsexual when referring to myself. Like I said, I'm annoyed by labels, but sometimes find it necessary, as I do panels and speak at Universities.
So I guess I would say that yes, my relationship with the word 'trans' has changed throughout the years as I've grown and changed. But it's a good thing :-)

[SelfMadeMan]

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.
.

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

[DomnNC]

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

I agree with you 100% on this. It's time for the bickering to end, we're ALL in the same boat of discrimination, harrassment, and judgemental attitudes and we ALL want the same thing and that is equality and protection under the law.

[Chazz]

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place. :)

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.

Especially, when I read something like this:

It's almost like some of you want us that male identify and can pass or those who have transition to lay down on our bellies, crawl like a snake and beg your (general) forgiveness for simply being who we are. Chuckles, I for one will never do that. I have no apologies to make to anyone for being simply who I am.

This kind of perspective is not inconsequential.

[Jaques]

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

sarcasm forgiven - and there was no bait to take, i never mentioned assault or rape

[Jaques]

You're right. I should have known better than to respond when I saw that the poster felt compelled to repost the remark after nobody responded the first time. I won't fall for it again.

I didnt feel compelled to repost, just thanking Blade for the response......

[SelfMadeMan]

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place. :)

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.



Well since you brought up the knottier issues.... I had to mention that I probably am in solidarity with you on the two topics you touched on. Not to start a whole other thing in here - but I don't think Transmen have any place at a women's only space (i.e. Michigan Women's Music Festival, Women's Universities, etc), nor do I deny that when I transitioned, male privilege came with it. I don't think that has to be a negative, and I honestly don't understand why the mere mention of it pisses some people off. Perhaps it's in the delivery, I don't know, but I do acknowledge I have it and I use it responsibly. My opinions on these issues aren't necessarily popular with some members of the Trans community, so I *get* why you feel that solidarity in all issues may not be possible. But I still think it's something that can be achieved :-)

[Chazz]

Well since you brought up the knottier issues.... I had to mention that I probably am in solidarity with you on the two topics you touched on. Not to start a whole other thing in here - but I don't think Transmen have any place at a women's only space (i.e. Michigan Women's Music Festival, Women's Universities, etc), nor do I deny that when I transitioned, male privilege came with it. I don't think that has to be a negative, and I honestly don't understand why the mere mention of it pisses some people off. Perhaps it's in the delivery, I don't know, but I do acknowledge I have it and I use it responsibly. My opinions on these issues aren't necessarily popular with some members of the Trans community, so I *get* why you feel that solidarity in all issues may not be possible. But I still think it's something that can be achieved :-)

Time will tell on the knottier issues.

My interest in these issues isn't the conflict, per se. It's the inability for some to "see" or accommodate others needs and yet still insist on solidarity. I don't think you're doing this, SelfMadeMan.

Solidarity is an eye focused on the greater good. It is not, necessarily, unanimity of purpose or belief in all things, at all times. It's a renewable commodity, not stasis. No community can thrive on stasis.

Solidarity comes at a cost. It requires that individuals be able to budge, temporarily at least, move out of their comfort zone, forgo an immediate personal gain for the good of someone else.

This is a difficult thing for people who have suffered oppression, each in their own way, to achieve when their perceived needs sometimes come in conflict. Is it worth aspiring to, sure. The key word here is perceived.

Perceptions aren't reality. Feelings aren't facts. Solidarity is achieved when a common reality is agreed up based upon facts. Each of us must be sure that the story we tell ourselves about our lives, is consistent with the facts of our lives. Otherwise, we're waving at windmills and alienating those who might, otherwise, unite with us towards the greater good. Erecting hierarchies of oppression and playing upon people's emotions and/or guilt will not work over the long term.

That's it for me. I have to tend to the flood in my basement.

[greeneyedgrrl]

I came into this thread waaaay on the tail end! :p i just wanted to say that i appreciate being educated. i had never heard anyone id as tg butch in the ways described in the thread, nor had i heard of male id'd butch in any context, so this was an eye-opening read for sure. thank you all for your contributions/view points. :praying:

[DapperButch]

I came into this thread waaaay on the tail end! :p i just wanted to say that i appreciate being educated. i had never heard anyone id as tg butch in the ways described in the thread, nor had i heard of male id'd butch in any context, so this was an eye-opening read for sure. thank you all for your contributions/view points. :praying:

Cool.

How is it that you have heard TG butch defined?

[Bad_boi]

I think it depends upon the person. There are so many pre-conceived ideas about what makes a man and what makes a woman. Same goes for butch and FTM. It is different for the individual.

[SelfMadeMan]

The beautiful thing about diversity is that we each get to (or SHOULD get to) choose how we best identify, regardless of gender. I am a huge fan of female masculinity in all its forms... and I think Butches should be respected for wherever they choose to fall into the gender spectrum!