Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Lee]

Ive never seen Male Id butch before this website. I think i get the concept, ive read short explanations on a lot of other posts but I was wondering if someone would mind breaking down the difference between a Male ID Butch person and a FtM trans person?

Thanks
Lee

[Corkey]

Ive never seen Male Id butch before this website. I think i get the concept, ive read short explanations on a lot of other posts but I was wondering if someone would mind breaking down the difference between a Male ID Butch person and a FtM trans person?

Thanks
Lee

Since I am, I'll give it a go. Male ID, it all depends on whether they are TG and what they want to call themselves. Now then as for me, I am not going to take T or have surgeries, therefore I retain Male Butch. Simple really, anyone can be any ID they choose.

[Leigh]

For Me personally, as an FTM, I not only identify as male but also plan on taking T (testosterone) as well as having top surgery (but not bottom). Male ID'd butch, to Me, is pretty much how Corkey explained it ~ while he is not going to take hormones or have any surgeries, he still identifies as male ........ hope I got that right anyways :)

[Ebon]

I don't want to take T but I do want to have top surgery. As far as male IDbutch goes, I guess my behavior and energy fits into what the world's social construct calls male and I myself feel more male. I love this website, it's nice to find men and women with the same mindset. Cheers!

[Converse]

For me, being male identified is more about not finding any recognition or connection within myself of anything that is normally perceived as female. When female pro-nouns are used it feels foreign, and has for as long as I can remember. But I also don’t wish to become a man. As a child I always wanted to be a boy, but not any boy that I ever knew- I actually recall one afternoon when I had been playing soccer and walking home thinking boys are really stupid I’m glad I’m not one, and then going with my mother to visit a friend who had a little girl my age- and feeling like she was speaking another language as I tried to make sense of the fact that this person actually enjoyed being in a room surrounded by sparkly things. I guess those feelings never really changed-

I was very young when my mother told me to keep away from “those freaks” that lived upstairs, and yet being in the same space as those “freaks” was all I wanted to do. Perhaps I am who I am because of the Butch-Femme couple that lived above us, lol. who knows? but for me, remaining female bodied and masculine presenting, is what feels the most natural- Butch for me becomes a gender, I don’t need to transition to another one. I use bastardized male pronouns because it is just a small attempt to ask that you try to see me not as male or female, but as Butch.

[Liam]

Ive never seen Male Id butch before this website. I think i get the concept, ive read short explanations on a lot of other posts but I was wondering if someone would mind breaking down the difference between a Male ID Butch person and a FtM trans person?

Thanks
Lee

A male identified butch presents themselves as male. An FTM is male.

[BullDog]

A male identified butch presents themselves as male. An FTM is male.

I am confused by this statement. If someone tells me they are male, I consider them male and it doesn't have anything to do with them having surgery or taking T.

[Glenn]

A male identified butch presents themselves as male. An FTM is male.

No. I had a beautifully perfect female body that represented ITSELF as female. Inside, since the get go, I participated in male activities, and sexually, I ID as male. All my life I've wanted to transition, yet, I did'nt want to mess up my female body in any way.

[chefhottie25]

Ive never seen Male Id butch before this website. I think i get the concept, ive read short explanations on a lot of other posts but I was wondering if someone would mind breaking down the difference between a Male ID Butch person and a FtM trans person?

Thanks
Lee

I am not sure that I am qualifyed to explain this. I identify as a boi. I don't necessarly identify as a male id butch. I am not in transition. I feel like there is a third sex for bois like me. It doesn't seem to require if you male identify or not. I was wondering if anyone else feels this way?

[Liam]

I am confused by this statement. If someone tells me they are male, I consider them male and it doesn't have anything to do with them having surgery or taking T.

You bring up a very important point, Bulldog—not all FTMs have surgery and/or take testosterone.

[Liam]

No. I had a beautifully perfect female body that represented ITSELF as female. Inside, since the get go, I participated in male activities, and sexually, I ID as male. All my life I've wanted to transition, yet, I did'nt want to mess up my female body in any way.

I have a few questions for you popcorninthesofa:

What do you mean when you say your female body represented itself as female?
What are male activities?
How are you using the word, "sexually," and what does it mean to sexually identify as male?

Thanks.

[betenoire]

Ive never seen Male Id butch before this website. I think i get the concept, ive read short explanations on a lot of other posts but I was wondering if someone would mind breaking down the difference between a Male ID Butch person and a FtM trans person?

Thanks
Lee

This, really, is an unanswerable question. Really, truly, it is near impossible to define an ID since IDs are so SO super-personal and if you took 50 people who considered themselves "Male ID Butch" they would have 50 different definitions of what that means to them and 50 different ways of presenting their gender.

[EnderD_503]

A male identified butch presents themselves as male. An FTM is male.

I disagree. I identify as a male id'd stone butch and as far as I am concerned I am male. Since I was a small child I couldn't think of myself as anything but. I am not just masculine, not just male presenting, but male. Part of the reason I identify as a male id'd stone instead of FtM is that FtM or trans anything has always, to me, implied going from female to male. Some have expressed that male id'd butches just don't want to get top surgery, go on T etc., but I don't think that's what defines a male id'd butch. For me when I do get top surgery, f.ex., I don't feel that I'll be taking a greater step toward transitioning to male because I already perceive myself as male. I've always been there mentally (not saying transguys haven't either, just trying to explain how my own mind processes my own characteristics), and I've spent the better part of my life sculpting my body physically to try to match where I am mentally as best I can.

So then why do I still insist on the stone butch part? Honestly, it's what I've comfortably grown into, was an important part of how I began to better understand myself and I don't see it as detracting from my "maleness" (or whatever you want to call it) in the least. It's perhaps more a descriptor of my own boundaries, and yet those boundaries, for lack of a better word, exist for me because I am male; yet a male who's physical body does not entirely match his mind.

Considering the differences of opinion here, I think what defines a male id'd butch varies from individual to individual. For me it's no different than simply being male.

[MysticOceansFL]

I have always ID'd as a Male Butch and thought about having the post op done but never did so alot had to do with being happy with who I am and physically even though I have a female body I am just as Much a Butch as a FTM is just because I use a strap on doesnt make me any less butch just means I can have many ajustables ones for sizes to pls my partner.

I'm not a chew tobbacco type of butch either I'm old school old fashioned and I believe that femme's are not a door mat rug they should be treated like the classy ladies that they are.

[Lee]

I am not sure that I am qualifyed to explain this. I identify as a boi. I don't necessarly identify as a male id butch. I am not in transition. I feel like there is a third sex for bois like me. It doesn't seem to require if you male identify or not. I was wondering if anyone else feels this way?

I think I feel a lot like you do, I do not Id as a boi, but then I try to avoid gender labels/ids where ever possible. I dont feel like the body I was born with reflects my gender, but I dont feel like transitioning from one gender to the other is what fits me either. I very much feel in the middle, I like the middle. I ID with Trans people because thats where ive found acceptance of my gender stuff, not because my end goal is to "switch genders".

The way I explained my desire to change my physical appearance ... hair cut, binding, clothing choices etc.. to my (very supportive) partner was this:
"Its not about trying to be something Im not, its just that I have to put a LOT of thought into my gender, other people should at least have to do a double take before they make an assumption."

[Lee]

Thank you all for your great responses. I think Im learning a lot here. Basically Male ID Butch is another gender label, and as we all know each person defines their own gender label in a very personal and individual way? Right?

So heres what ive heard (read?) :

Male ID Butches are generally men or male ID folks who choose not to alter their bodies with T or surgery but some Male ID Butches still see their physical body as female.
FtM Trans folks are men who did not start out with a male body and may or may not use T or surgery to change their body.

So do any Male ID Butches take T and have surgery, or does the T and surgery mean that you are FtM (I know that you dont HAVE to have T and surgery to be FtM, but im wondering if it works the other way around...everyone who takes T and has surgery is an FtM, rather than other labels like Male ID Butch)??

Forgive my ignorance on the subject...

Thanks
Lee

[Corkey]

Thank you all for your great responses. I think Im learning a lot here. Basically Male ID Butch is another gender label, and as we all know each person defines their own gender label in a very personal and individual way? Right?

So heres what ive heard (read?) :

Male ID Butches are generally men or male ID folks who choose not to alter their bodies with T or surgery but some Male ID Butches still see their physical body as female.
FtM Trans folks are men who did not start out with a male body and may or may not use T or surgery to change their body.

So do any Male ID Butches take T and have surgery, or does the T and surgery mean that you are FtM (I know that you dont HAVE to have T and surgery to be FtM, but im wondering if it works the other way around...everyone who takes T and has surgery is an FtM, rather than other labels like Male ID Butch)??

Forgive my ignorance on the subject...

Thanks
Lee

It is all purely subjective, from the person who wishes to ID themselves. There are no set rules or ways of gender expression. A FTM may or may not take T and FTM may or may not have surgery. It is up to that individual to make that distinction. A Male ID'd person may or may not take T a Male ID'd person may or may not have surgery, again it is all subjective and expressed individually.

[Greyson]

Thank you all for your great responses. I think Im learning a lot here. Basically Male ID Butch is another gender label, and as we all know each person defines their own gender label in a very personal and individual way? Right?

So heres what ive heard (read?) :

Male ID Butches are generally men or male ID folks who choose not to alter their bodies with T or surgery but some Male ID Butches still see their physical body as female.
FtM Trans folks are men who did not start out with a male body and may or may not use T or surgery to change their body.

So do any Male ID Butches take T and have surgery, or does the T and surgery mean that you are FtM (I know that you dont HAVE to have T and surgery to be FtM, but im wondering if it works the other way around...everyone who takes T and has surgery is an FtM, rather than other labels like Male ID Butch)??

Forgive my ignorance on the subject...

Thanks
Lee

Lee, again, welcome to the site. The questions you are asking have been discussed many times here and on the other site. Please do not think I am saying your questions are redundant, they are not. I like the straight forward way you ask the question.

I cannot give you a big long answer that includes the "whys" right now because I am due at a meeting.

I am a masculine identified butch/ Transmasculine Butch and I have had surgery and I have been taking T for two years. I also use the label Transman at times.

Gotta go.

[Greyson]

Back. Lee there is no right way or wrong way to label your gender identity. That is entirely your decision. Many of us here came to our own personal gender identity through somewhat of an evolutionary process.

Let me step back and speak from the "I" perspective. For most of my adult life, I consciously identified as a Butch. In my thinking that put me in a sort of 3rd gender realm.

Now, for the past 20 years give or take a few years, it has become very possible for female bodied people to "transition."

For me, this "transition" is taking years and my transition is not restricted to hormones and surgeries. There is also the psychological, spiritual, and legal aspect to all of this, for me.

I identify as a "Transmasculine" Butch in part because I do not believe masculinity must be, can only be expressed as a male. "Masculinity" is present in both sexes and and all along the gender spectrum.

Legally, I am now a male but in many ways I am still working on what that looks like for me. For me I do not believe I am the same as a cisgendered man. Not all of the Butches, FTMs, bois believe the same as I do. And that is okay.

Finally, I have seen a few of us here change our ideas, and opinions about "gender" as we continue to discuss things here and live our lives in the world.

Good luck to you.

[Joe Mario]

Wow, this is a very interesting topic. The terms "male" and "man" still doesn't feel right for me.
The term male feels like "Bio-male" to me. I am still a sexual minority, not more than superficially assimilated with the hets.

TG Butch, as always before, still feels right for me.

[DamonK]

I'm not on T.
I've not had top surgery.

I have no intention of going on T.
Currently, I am not going to have top surgery. Regarding this, I have a plan that is a possibility. Healthwise, and emotionally, my plan fits my needs better.

That being said. I am a transguy. I don't need surgery or T to know this. I just am.

Someday, my outside will present more as my insides do. Hopefully within the next year.

I'm not FtM necessarily, I'm not male. I'm an unique person that embodies another third gender.

[SelfMadeMan]

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

[~Bo]

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?






Ditto.....

[Greyson]

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?


Thank you for speaking up and stating what is true for you. I sincerely mean this. I would like to hear more of what you have to say. I am aware that "transitioning" may have similarities for many but there too are many varied experiences and identities.

[BullDog]

What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT.

Thank you for this. I am proud to be a butch, proud to be a woman and proud to be a lesbian.

[Stacy]

This is how I personally break it down...
masculine/feminine = characteristics
male/female = gender
man/woman = sex

So to me the Male ID'd Butch is a combination of the three.
sex (woman) + characteristics (male) = Male ID'd Butch (woman)

In the end, the sex stays the same and the characteristics are usually very male. With an FTM transsexual the sex generally changes to MAN in the end and their characteristics are generally a more equal mix of male & female. It has been my experience with many of the FTM transsexuals I have met that after transition they are more open to explore their feminine characteristics because their gender & sex are in sync, male + man.

I often wonder when I see male ID'd butches on the site if that is how they present themselves to their family, their jobs, and the public in general outside of the forums. A male ID'd butch is still physically and usually legally a woman and therefore has the option of having one foot in both worlds. Whereas my husband, who has undergone SRS and is on hormone therapy can no longer present as a woman anywhere, and that is perfectly okay with him. That is how it is suppose to be, for him.

I am not trying to step on any toes here, I'm just expressing how I try to keep something straight in mind that has a tendency to be very convoluted.

[SelfMadeMan]

Thank you for speaking up and stating what is true for you. I sincerely mean this. I would like to hear more of what you have to say. I am aware that "transitioning" may have similarities for many but there too are many varied experiences and identities.

Thanks Grey... I'm not trying to bash anyone's identity - I believe so strongly in the freedom to express oneself. I just think that oftentimes, the lines get blurred between Transgender and Transexual, Butch and FTM, etc. and the term FTM, IMHO is often misused. FTM - female TO male, refers to someone who has transitioned (or is transitioning) from being female to being male. I think this gets used too loosely at times to refer to someone who might present as male but is not transitioning, and I think this causes a lot of confusion - and incorrect assumptions by society. I also think the word Butch is used too loosely, and this not only hurts those Transmen who don't identify as such, but the Butch community as well. The Butch experience is vastly different than the FTM experience.

[SelfMadeMan]

Thank you for this. I am proud to be a butch, proud to be a woman and proud to be a lesbian.

Yes!! Thank you for this!

[imperfect_cupcake]

This is how I personally break it down...
masculine/feminine = characteristics
male/female = gender
man/woman = sex




see this is where is get irrationally annoyed and confused. it's totally my own issue.

But growing up with biology and anthropology being spoon fed at an early age, it's

masculine/feminine = characteristics
man/woman = (two of many) genders
male/female = (two of *many*) sexes

so when people say "male ID'd butch", I go "huh?? but Male is a sex, not a gender. I don't understand what you are saying. If you said you were transsexual, rather than transgender, I'd get it. It's why there are male horses, not man horses."

So it's a massive stumbling block I can't seem to get past in comprehending. I went away from the web for six-8 months and came back and everyone was using it, where as before, they called themselves TG butches. Which I understood.

It's not really anyone else's problem, granted, it seems to be only me that doesn't understand. I have tried. People have tried explaining. But I keep ramming up against "but... but... that's transgender... not transsexual..."

And it's not my place to tell people who they are. But the word means something entirely different to me and sometimes it rubs me the wrong way :confused:

Not in any majour way, mind you. I think it's just something my brain won't switch on. TG butch = what some other people call male ID'd butch. It's a Dictionary problem I can't seem to change. I still see them as who they are, mind you.

I suppose it's like inki and I arguing "that's green" "no it's turquoise"
this can go on for hours. she means pale green with a smidgen of blue in it (thus green) I see turquoise. To her, Turquoise has more blue in it. I'm also suspecting since people see colours differently, that perhaps I see more blue in things than she does.

we are saying practically the same thing but our perceptual semantics get in the way.

[Stacy]

Didn't want to irrationally annoy anyone, as I stated, it is how "I personally break it down".

[SuperFemme]

what if a person is transgender but disputes the term FTM?
because to this person they were never female, always male...
so transitioning away from something they never were to something
they've always been seems to be a sticking point

[SelfMadeMan]

what if a person is transgender but disputes the term FTM?
because to this person they were never female, always male...
so transitioning away from something they never were to something
they've always been seems to be a sticking point

Well while it may not be something they want to admit or face, or own, they WERE born biologically female. Period. I am as manly as the next man, and I can own the fact that while my mind & spirit were ALWAYS male, I was born into a BIOLOGICALLY female body. They can dispute whatever they want to - but if they were born into a body that was biologically female, then one MUST transition to male - unless that person chooses not to transition, then they are choosing to remain biologically female regardless of what pronouns they choose.

[SuperFemme]

Well while it may not be something they want to admit or face, or own, they WERE born biologically female. Period. I am as manly as the next man, and I can own the fact that while my mind & spirit were ALWAYS male, I was born into a BIOLOGICALLY female body. They can dispute whatever they want to - but if they were born into a body that was biologically female, then one MUST transition to male - unless that person chooses not to transition, then they are choosing to remain biologically female regardless of what pronouns they choose.

I get and respect what you are saying. However, even with transitioning can one become "biologically" male? Following that logic could put transmen in great peril with a false safety net maybe? Because if one is "biologically" male then they wouldn't need to make sure to get pap smears and mammograms would they? Which saves lives.

I think at the end of the day, people have their own personal truths, and those truths may not align with with the next guys....

I am not trying to argue, I am just taking into account some things I've discussed with transguys at our local meetings...because it is super important to me to actively listen to other humans truths.

thanks for yours. (f)

[Rufusboi]

I get and respect what you are saying. However, even with transitioning can one become "biologically" male? Following that logic could put transmen in great peril with a false safety net maybe? Because if one is "biologically" male then they wouldn't need to make sure to get pap smears and mammograms would they? Which saves lives.

I think at the end of the day, people have their own personal truths, and those truths may not align with with the next guys....

I am not trying to argue, I am just taking into account some things I've discussed with transguys at our local meetings...because it is super important to me to actively listen to other humans truths.

thanks for yours. (f)


Although there are many FTMs who have had both top surgery and the full removal of all reproductive organs and so yearly mammograms and pap smears are no longer needed.

But to the larger point, I think we are getting into the territory of what constitutes male and female. Texas has followed this logic to its end point and recognizes no form of transition whatsover. Texas states that you are what you are born as. A very rigid way of thinking. When we try to put everything back into the box, so to speak, we end up with Texas' law. They take it to the chromosome level. Their argument is that chromosomes can't be changed and therefore "biology" = chromosomes. So none of us can ever be "biologically" male under this definition. Texas being Texas they also throw "God" in there somewhere, too.

Rufus

[RavynTuqiri]

I've read the thread here with great interest and intrigue and wonder about
the labels we are trying to a fix to one another...while I understand that labels
do have a place in life (labels and definitions bring understanding and through
understanding it can lead towards a path of acceptance), how a person identifies is going to be defined by their personal experiences and their own individual responses to those experiences.

For me personally...before I came out (almost seems like a whole other life I lead before this one), I was straight, married and had a kid. I wouldn't change that experience for any reason because of the child I have now.
Parts of me will forever be female and I am ok with that.

I don't identify as butch...more of a boi. I don't identify as male, don't wish to be a man, although I am predominantly masculine. I've considered top surgery not because I want to be manly but more because I don't associate with that part of my female anatomy. It would be the only thing I would want
to change (as a child when my breasts started to grow I was markedly upset...you can't catch footballs quite the same way ever again...on the flip side...I have great hands now :P ).

So I think the gender identity is evolving...particularly due to boards like this
and open discussions...I know I don't fit into the female...I don't fit into
the male either....I am just simply....me.

[Corkey]

On a personal aside. I don't assign any identity to another person, that is for them to decide, just as (you generic) have no place assigning my identity.

I think once we start accepting folks on how "they" wish to be called, the sooner the gender labeling will fade into history/herstory.
Be who you are, and allow others the same consideration.

[SelfMadeMan]

I get and respect what you are saying. However, even with transitioning can one become "biologically" male? Following that logic could put transmen in great peril with a false safety net maybe? Because if one is "biologically" male then they wouldn't need to make sure to get pap smears and mammograms would they? Which saves lives.

I think at the end of the day, people have their own personal truths, and those truths may not align with with the next guys....

I am not trying to argue, I am just taking into account some things I've discussed with transguys at our local meetings...because it is super important to me to actively listen to other humans truths.

thanks for yours. (f)

No, I will never be biologically male - however, I am legally male. I wasn't suggesting that Transmen can ever transition to biological men. I was simply pointing out that I have taken the steps required to become a man in the legal sense of the word.

[SuperFemme]

No, I will never be biologically male - however, I am legally male. I wasn't suggesting that Transmen can ever transition to biological men. I was simply pointing out that I have taken the steps required to become a man in the legal sense of the word.

I understand. Thank you for talking w/me about it. :)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Didn't want to irrationally annoy anyone, as I stated, it is how "I personally break it down".


it's not personal :|. more than just you uses male = gender instead of sex. it's like how some people get irrationally annoyed from the misuse of punctuation. Like I said, it's my problem.

ETA: I'm not saying sexual transitioning isn't "real" - as far as I'm concerned it's "real" before it occurs anyway. my only stumbling block is pedantic: male is sex, man is gender. It's why I can have multiple gender (woman, femme, gender neutral) that I inhabit in my female (sex) body.

sexual transitioning, is not gender transitioning in my brain. I know that sounds weird. But someone who sexually transition is a man turning into a male. if that makes sense. Or like some of my friends a _____ (however they classify their gender) gender transitioning to male.

Perhaps my brain works differently.

that said I do know transgender and transsexual individuals. to be more confusing.

I am by NO MEANS speaking for anyone. I am only talking about why the confusion between sex and gender drives me a bit bonkers and I get very confused as to how people use them.

[JustBeingMe]

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

Ditto................

[JustBeingMe]

Thank you for this. I am proud to be a butch, proud to be a woman and proud to be a lesbian.


Ditto Bulldog !!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?


yes. I know plenty of men of any/all origins or aren't even slightly butch-as-adjective. In fact two of my closest men friends are giant queens. And manly as all get-out. And still very much the male they have always been no matter what their starting point was.

Butch, for many, is a gender - regardless. some people I know that physically transition into their very own gender and sex (not exactly male sex, but something else entirely) still see one of their genders as butch as their sex still encompasses something partially female.

So I can see the crossing of why some still claim the gender.

But I can see/understand the very clear logic of why many do not.


I personally don't tend to see FtM as butch. Unless they tell me they are because of the variety of their sex(transition and head space) (FtQ a term a couple of my friends use and how I separate it in my own head).

again, it's not up to me though. it's where they live. I have no say in that.

[EnderD_503]

[B]This is how I personally break it down...
masculine/feminine = characteristics
male/female = gender
man/woman = sex

So to me the Male ID'd Butch is a combination of the three.
sex (woman) + characteristics (male) = Male ID'd Butch (woman)

That may very well be for you, but that is not the case for many male id'd butches. For some maybe, but for others it is not at all the case. What I don't understand is why, on a forum that claims to accept the way everyone chooses to identify, there seems to be so many ready to explain to male id'd butches what they should be. And yet for most other id's, when a poster does this they're jumped on for not accepting the way a person chooses to identify.

I explained in my first post why I retain stone butch as a part of my identity. If you want the run down again, then here it is: I have never identified as a lesbian, a woman or female despite what some people like to tell me. Since early childhood I unquestioningly thought of myself as male. Not just "a boy," or "a man," but of the male sex. The only time in my life I ever even attempted to believe in any god was when I was 7 years old praying that I'd wake up one morning to find that it had all been a dream and that my body would be changed to what I always saw it to be.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. From that early I age I'd also always been attracted to women, which became a problem for me because there was no explanation for me (the word lesbian never worked for me), for what I was, for how I could continue to live my life. Middle school people start coming out as lesbians, bisexual etc. Women attracted to other women, and that brought me even more confusion and delayed my entrance into the queer community for quite a long time because I didn't feel it was the place for me. In many respects I still feel like it continues to put a wedge in between me and the community. I was not a woman attracted to other women. I did not want to be in a relationship where I was recognised as a woman, have an anatomy I detested in myself be recognised.

When I first came across the term stone butch it had been the closest term, at that time, that described who I was as far as what appeared to be sexual boundaries. It told me that I was not the only one who had been born with female genitals who did not want to be touched in a way that I deemed as feminizing (and since I know people have scoffed at that word in stone butch threads in the past, I'll put it more plainly: touched in a way that recognises genitalia I wish I'd never been born with). I know there are many different ways stone butches see their identity, and many won't agree with me on my perspective on my own identity. It gave me a means to understand myself at a time when I'd never met anyone who felt the same way; who was born with female genitalia, who was attracted to women, but who did not consider themselves female, woman etc. but male. I always had a strong aversion to the term FTM or transsexual because to me, even with surgery or hormones, it didn't recognise that I was already male in mind. It would never be a transition for me because my mind is a bigger definer, to me, of who I am than my body. I kept that as a part of my identity as a testament to the first thing that began to make some sense of me as far as my sexual orientation. As far as I applied it to myself, stone butch has never meant lesbian or woman, though I've always understood that some who identified a such did see themselves that way. To me, as far as I applied it to me, that was never how I saw it. To this day I still can't give an answer as to my sexual orientation because I don't have a clear cut answer. My brain tells me I'm a straight male born into something else that does not have a name for me (wanted to edit and clarify this before someone jumps on it...maybe this will make more sense: I feel like I'm straight according to my own perceived sex (male) and who I'm attracted to (women, more specifically femmes), yet also feel a part of the queer community. My attraction is to femmes and I honestly don't know what to call that beyond "I'm attracted to femmes." So my sexual orientation is simply someone of the male persuasion who is attracted to femmes if you want to call it anything...which makes me feel like I should just do away with defining my sexual orientation all together. While I can define my brain's sex and my gender, defining my sexual orientation has never been something that has come easily to me). If that makes me crazy and dillusional go ahead and think that of me. I don't care anymore.

In the end, the sex stays the same and the characteristics are usually very male. With an FTM transsexual the sex generally changes to MAN in the end and their characteristics are generally a more equal mix of male & female. It has been my experience with many of the FTM transsexuals I have met that after transition they are more open to explore their feminine characteristics because their gender & sex are in sync, male + man.

Not all FTMs get bottom surgery. They may get their gender marker on their id changed to M instead of F, get top surgery, go on T, but many haven't gone as far as bottom surgery. The whole point of the surgery is to bring your body in line with your mind...the neurological sex (which means sex is not as clear cut as we once thought, considering there are both biological and neurological components) has always been male. Why is it that people always take the physical body as more indicative of sex when the brain is also an indicator of sex. What happens to someone who does not have the opportunity or resources to go on testosterone, to get surgery? They have to submit to the world's interpretation of their sex just because the world can't crack open their skull and take a look inside? We have to be called women and female and dillusional until we have the money not to?

I often wonder when I see male ID'd butches on the site if that is how they present themselves to their family, their jobs, and the public in general outside of the forums. A male ID'd butch is still physically and usually legally a woman and therefore has the option of having one foot in both worlds. Whereas my husband, who has undergone SRS and is on hormone therapy can no longer present as a woman anywhere, and that is perfectly okay with him. That is how it is suppose to be, for him.

This comment makes it sound like male id'd butches are jumping between male and female worlds out of convenience, that they have a choice. Sure I have a choice. I have the choice to keep my job or to be out on my ass, jobless, homeless, in debt and even further away from surgery than I am now. I can tell my mother ten thousand times that I am male and it doesn't mean she'll accept that. Maybe she will one day. I first told her that when I was 4. At least she doesn't hate me. And many FtMs go through the same thing with their families telling them they aren't male despite the fact that they've gone on T, they've got the surgery, the gender legally changed etc. I don't have the "option" to have my foot in both worlds right now. I can barely use any fucking public washroom. At work I just get "friendly" mockery. That's the hand that's been dealt to me right now and I'm doing everything I can to be able to change that financially. But I need to go through "hell" to get to something better, so maybe part of that "hell" is not being recognised by this community either. I'm 25 years old, still paying off thousands in student loans while hoping to go back to school again and so put myself in debt...again, work my ass off in a full-time job that isn't going so great because of the economy, and trying to generally survive. Top surgery is right at the top of the list of priorities right now next to making enough money to live. I also recently got hired at a job that I won't be able to take time off from until next year, which is also a very physical job so I would have to take time off after top surgery. And because of the hours I work (and soon adding school to that again) I can't even go to therapy or support groups (I love the support group here for that reason. Thank you to all the regular guys there for accepting me into the group. You have no idea how thankful I am). Yeah, I know it's all excuses, same old sob story blah blah blah but honestly it's something that's going to take time and effort for me. I know it'll come eventually. I have to deal with life as it is for me right now. The comment suggests that I like and want to still be able to present as female to some people. That I'm somehow oh so "lucky" to have that "privilege" of being denied who I am by other people every day. Oh joy, oh bliss, don't hold your breath as I thank my lucky stars.

Luckily I have good friends that do recognise me, and luckily I also manage to pass decent enough walking down the street/going about life, though my spirit still sinks when I'm recognised as female by a random stranger, or when I get the 20 questions by random strangers on "what the fuck are you".

The point of this little outburst (not typically inclined to such outbursts or getting riled by much of anything but getting tired of the same old broken record spiel) is to try to clarify some things, and apparently people only hear you when you rant. I'm not asking for pity. I'm not asking for sympathy. I'm not even asking for anyone's help in any of this because I can deal with my own shit and take responsibility for my own shit. I'm not asking for anything except that at least in the queer community people would stop telling me that I'm dillusional, insane, a woman, a female and everything I've never understood myself to be; that it doesn't matter what I say or do I'm always what you think I am. As if I need anymore help in feeling trapped in this life. But I'm starting to think even that's too much to ask, so forget it. I'm not even asking that. If everything you all wrote is what you think, hell you've got that right and I certainly won't take it from you since I do believe everyone should have the right to their own thoughts and beliefs. But I also have the self-given right to reply whether anyone else chooses to give a rat's ass or not...so there you have it. I also have the feeling this will be interpreted as me being oh so terribly offended by other's thoughts. Not so. Like I said, we can all think what we want. Just annoyed at the same old song and dance, but ultimately I know, more and more, that maybe acceptance isn't something I should care enough to look for anymore.

[Stacy]

I believe I stated that it is how I personally break it down and what it means to ME. By being a member of this site it doesn't automatically mean you're willing to just accept whatever, I just choose to not make issues of the things I don't accept. I find far too often when I share my opinion about any damn thing other than fun or fluff, someone inevitably jumps my shit about it. You can claim whatever ID you choose on this site. I'm still curious how many claim those ID's in the real world. Just because I'm on this site, doesn't mean I am just blindly accepting of anything. I didn't even bother reading your whole rant, I know it would just piss me off. However, I wanted it to be clear that I stated right off the bat, that it was how I personally view it. I never claimed to be Harry Benjamin or the all knowing guru of all things trans.

[SelfMadeMan]

Funny how when you state your opinion on the FTM side of things in a thread asking for opinions on the differences between (male ID'd) Butches and FTMs, you get your shit jumped for your viewpoint. I just find that very interesting. This kind of thing is exactly why a great number of transitioning/transitioned FTM's go stealth and separate themselves from the GLBT community. Makes me question why on earth I still try to be a part of it...

So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period.

[Corkey]

Well aren't we a tad judgmental.
If you have an issue with how Ender or any other Male here ID's, that is your issue. There's room for everyone at this table. Thank goodness your approval isn't necessary.

[SelfMadeMan]

Well aren't we a tad judgmental.
If you have an issue with how Ender or any other Male here ID's, that is your issue. There's room for everyone at this table. Thank goodness your approval isn't necessary.

How is believing in the HBSOC being judgemental? So if my opinion differs from yours, I'm judgemental... how convenient. Those standards are there for a reason, and the process has worked for YEARS. If someone doesn't intend to transition, why then should they be on male hormones?

[Corkey]

How is believing in the HBSOC being judgmental? So if my opinion differs from yours, I'm judgemental... how convenient. Those standards are there for a reason, and the process has worked for YEARS. If someone doesn't intend to transition, why then should they be on male hormones?

There are plenty of reasons for being on T, especially when one gets older, or has certain medical issues. You are assuming that the rest of the world cares about that "standard" it doesn't. You are the one making assumptions about people you don't even know. Like I said you aren't the one we have to answer to, you don't hold the power over others. Those "standards" are gatekeeping at it's finest.

[SelfMadeMan]

I wasn't referring to someone who has been told by their Doctor that they need to be on male hormomes for medical reasons... that's a whole other issue. I'm talking about taking male hormones by choice, not by medical necessity. And I didn't suggest you need MY approval. I said I believe in the HBSOC and that Physicians should have to follow those guidelines. I am still entitled to my beliefs, no? As usual - state an opinion that isn't popular and you get ripped. I have thick skin though... so slam me all you want, this isn't my first rodeo.

[Stacy]

If he's being judgemental of anyone it's the doctors totally disregarding the HBSOC. He's not judging those taking T who have not gone through what he had to go through. I'm quite sure if Michael could have gotten the hormones and that M on his driver's license an easier way, he would have taken the easier way. He is just stating that he believes the SOC is a good system which should be followed, in his opinion.

[Corkey]

I wasn't referring to someone who has been told by their Doctor that they need to be on male hormomes for medical reasons... that's a whole other issue. I'm talking about taking male hormones by choice, not by medical necessity. And I didn't suggest you need MY approval. I said I believe in the HBSOC and that Physicians should have to follow those guidelines. I am still entitled to my beliefs, no? As usual - state an opinion that isn't popular and you get ripped. I have thick skin though... so slam me al you want, this isn't my first rodeo.

You are stating your opinion like it is some law. It isn't. People chose to do all sorts of things, one of them is whether to take T or not. That is a personal choice, not something you get to decide for another. Doctors have there place, it isn't to decide for their patient what they can and can not do. If you think I'm slamming you, you have an opinion of yourself I do not. There is no better than, no less than, no ID is greater than another and you don't get to tell others how to live their lives. Simple.
Now pardon me I have things to do like take a shower and use my T.

[Corkey]

If he's being judgemental of anyone it's the doctors totally disregarding the HBSOC. He's not judging those taking T who have not gone through what he had to go through. I'm quite sure if Michael could have gotten the hormones and that M on his driver's license an easier way, he would have taken the easier way. He is just stating that he believes the SOC is a good system which should be followed, in his opinion.

Gatekeeping.

[Rufusboi]

I believe I stated that it is how I personally break it down and what it means to ME. By being a member of this site it doesn't automatically mean you're willing to just accept whatever, I just choose to not make issues of the things I don't accept. I find far too often when I share my opinion about any damn thing other than fun or fluff, someone inevitably jumps my shit about it. You can claim whatever ID you choose on this site. I'm still curious how many claim those ID's in the real world. Just because I'm on this site, doesn't mean I am just blindly accepting of anything. I didn't even bother reading your whole rant, I know it would just piss me off. However, I wanted it to be clear that I stated right off the bat, that it was how I personally view it. I never claimed to be Harry Benjamin or the all knowing guru of all things trans.

Deviant - I think you make good points. There are a lot of terms, IDs, and definitions and different people define them differently. It is confusing. Over the years the names and labels have changed for me. Now that I am taking T I struggle with how to identify myself and what word or words to use that will communicate how I identify. I think that many people find it a struggle to ID who they are internally out in the world because the large majority of people don't know the differences or nuances, they might just see lesbian, gay, bi and know a little about trans.

Many know little about the differences between sex and gender, even. I'm not totally sure what you mean by claim those IDs in the real world because most people in the real world have little to no knowledge of these IDs. What does a male Id'ed butch check on an application form because there is no box with this ID available.

If their paperwork says Female then they have no choice but to check female otherwise HR is going to start asking questions. Personally. I don't correct people when they call me he or she. In any given day I can be called she 5 times and he five times by various people I come in contact with. Neither he or she really fits, neither does gay or lesbian. These are the terms people apply to me to try to fit me into their concepts of gender and sexuality.

I don't correct the wait staff who call me she because its a waste of energy for me. I dont care how they address me. For some, though this is an important issue and they will correct people they come in contact with. So even these types of things vary from person to person. We are butting up against language limitations, traditional ideas of gender and sex, lack of knowledge of most people about gender and sex, rigid systems of paperwork that require an either/or answer and all paperwork must align. I'm only on my third shot of T but all these issues have come up as I work on this "transition"

Rufus

[EnderD_503]

I believe I stated that it is how I personally break it down and what it means to ME. By being a member of this site it doesn't automatically mean you're willing to just accept whatever, I just choose to not make issues of the things I don't accept. I find far too often when I share my opinion about any damn thing other than fun or fluff, someone inevitably jumps my shit about it. You can claim whatever ID you choose on this site. I'm still curious how many claim those ID's in the real world. Just because I'm on this site, doesn't mean I am just blindly accepting of anything. I didn't even bother reading your whole rant, I know it would just piss me off. However, I wanted it to be clear that I stated right off the bat, that it was how I personally view it. I never claimed to be Harry Benjamin or the all knowing guru of all things trans.

If you'd bothered to read my whole post you'd actually get the answer to your question about me claiming my id in the real world. No I don't say "hey guys, I'm a male id'd butch, ask me how!" I simply say that I'm male because male is what I am. I can't put a gun to their head and get them to call me what I call myself, and I shouldn't have to. They have just as much of a right to their opinion as I do. And I have a right to defend myself. Here people tend to "get it" (or so I thought) more, so I thought I might be able to say something about my history. My bad.

If you'd read the post, you'd also have read that I don't care if you accept me or not. I don't believe in blind acceptance. I'm not asking you to blindly accept me. Think whatever you want, but like I said in my last post, I also have the right to respond. You gave your reasons why you don't see me as male. I responded to those claims.

Funny how when you state your opinion on the FTM side of things in a thread asking for opinions on the differences between (male ID'd) Butches and FTMs, you get your shit jumped for your viewpoint. I just find that very interesting. This kind of thing is exactly why a great number of transitioning/transitioned FTM's go stealth and separate themselves from the GLBT community. Makes me question why on earth I still try to be a part of it...

So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period.

I'm not even going to bother because you obviously didn't even bother to read my post. But for the record, this is why I feel the need more and more to separate myself from the LGBT community. Because you're always what other people want you to be. Many lesbians tell you you need to be a lesbian, because you supposedly only think you're male because society pressures you to be, or because you think masculine = male (I'm not that dense, thank you) or because people are pressuring you to transition (quite the opposite). Others tell you you aren't male because you weren't born with the right genitals. Others tell you you don't belong in this community because you're very existence isn't compatible with feminism and the LGBT community. Society tells you you're not even human. Not sane. Not normal. Not this. Not that. I'm tired of being told I don't exist. I'm tired of being shot at from all fronts.

I'm not telling you who you are or who you should be. Sure go ahead and give your opinion on the subject, but don't expect me not to give my opinion back. The problem I have with your perspective is that your perspective, were it reality, would deny people the right to be themselves all because they choose not use the same terminology you do. And yeah, while you have the right to make that claim, I have the right to speak against it.

As for the differences between FtMs and male id'd butches, the point myself and others were making before is that, depending on the individual, there may very well not be a clear cut difference. It depends on the individual because not everyone sees their identity the same way.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Deviant - I think you make good points. There are a lot of terms, IDs, and definitions and different people define them differently. It is confusing. Over the years the names and labels have changed for me. Now that I am taking T I struggle with how to identify myself and what word or words to use that will communicate how I identify. I think that many people find it a struggle to ID who they are internally out in the world because the large majority of people don't know the differences or nuances, they might just see lesbian, gay, bi and know a little about trans.

Many know little about the differences between sex and gender, even. I'm not totally sure what you mean by claim those IDs in the real world because most people in the real world have little to no knowledge of these IDs. What does a male Id'ed butch check on an application form because there is no box with this ID available.

If their paperwork says Female then they have no choice but to check female otherwise HR is going to start asking questions. Personally. I don't correct people when they call me he or she. In any given day I can be called she 5 times and he five times by various people I come in contact with. Neither he or she really fits, neither does gay or lesbian. These are the terms people apply to me to try to fit me into their concepts of gender and sexuality.

I don't correct the wait staff who call me she because its a waste of energy for me. I dont care how they address me. For some, though this is an important issue and they will correct people they come in contact with. So even these types of things vary from person to person. We are butting up against language limitations, traditional ideas of gender and sex, lack of knowledge of most people about gender and sex, rigid systems of paperwork that require an either/or answer and all paperwork must align. I'm only on my third shot of T but all these issues have come up as I work on this "transition"

Rufus


Rufus, what you are explaining covers much of what many of my friends describe. They don't really have a label, I don't see them stretching for one, no one I know actually cares what those labels are. As far as I'm concerned is Nat, jim, Cee, Balla, Leng etc genders and sexes and their pronouns aren't really one that exists. They get to say where their transition stops and starts, since they are neither male or female. Some take T, some other have their chests reduced, some have both. Some do neither. Some stop and start.

I don't think any of them use the word butch that I'm aware of. Most of them just use genderqueer as an umbrella term and fuck the specifics, they aren't really needed - at least, no one I know has been arsed enough to try and tell me what theirs are if they have one and I really don't care about their ID, I'm more interested in how they are, what they been up to, if they are busy next thursday. This is probably why I get confused about the term male ID'd butch.

Usually when one goes to a genderqueer club, it's a rainbow of gender and sexes with no two being exactly alike.

that has nothing to do with paperwork and living in the realities of HR nightmares though where you have to pick male, female or transgender (at least public service has put this box on at the very least).

thanks for the help in figuring out why I get so confused by this board when in person I'm not even slightly confused.

[SelfMadeMan]

Note to Self: Only voice your opinion if it is the popular one. Otherwise, temper tantrums and mud slinging are sure to follow.

[Corkey]

Note to Self: Only voice your opinion if it is the popular one. Otherwise, temper tantrums and mud slinging are sure to follow.

OFFS get over yourself. I am.

[SelfMadeMan]

OFFS get over yourself. I am.

I don't recall asking for your approval ... did we not cover the fact that you don't seek approval for who you are and what you do? You don't have to read me if it bothers you, but I'll decide what to get over for myself , m'kay? I don't make a habit of doing what I'm told.

[Stacy]

You are stating your opinion like it is some law. It isn't. People chose to do all sorts of things, one of them is whether to take T or not. That is a personal choice, not something you get to decide for another. Doctors have there place, it isn't to decide for their patient what they can and can not do. If you think I'm slamming you, you have an opinion of yourself I do not. There is no better than, no less than, no ID is greater than another and you don't get to tell others how to live their lives. Simple.
Now pardon me I have things to do like take a shower and use my T.

The HBSOC isn't a law, it's a guideline. I don't believe Michael was stating his opinion as if it were law. I know that he just believes very much in those guidelines and their effectiveness. As is his right. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose about the HBSOC, however, calling my husband judgmental is making it personal. IMHO

Gatekeeping. Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

If you'd bothered to read my whole post you'd actually get the answer to your question about me claiming my id in the real world. No I don't say "hey guys, I'm a male id'd butch, ask me how!" I simply say that I'm male because male is what I am. I can't put a gun to their head and get them to call me what I call myself, and I shouldn't have to. They have just as much of a right to their opinion as I do. And I have a right to defend myself. Here people tend to "get it" (or so I thought) more, so I thought I might be able to say something about my history. My bad.

If you'd read the post, you'd also have read that I don't care if you accept me or not. I don't believe in blind acceptance. I'm not asking you to blindly accept me. Think whatever you want, but like I said in my last post, I also have the right to respond. You gave your reasons why you don't see me as male. I responded to those claims.



I'm not even going to bother because you obviously didn't even bother to read my post. But for the record, this is why I feel the need more and more to separate myself from the LGBT community. Because you're always what other people want you to be. Many lesbians tell you you need to be a lesbian, because you supposedly only think you're male because society pressures you to be, or because you think masculine = male (I'm not that dense, thank you) or because people are pressuring you to transition (quite the opposite). Others tell you you aren't male because you weren't born with the right genitals. Others tell you you don't belong in this community because you're very existence isn't compatible with feminism and the LGBT community. Society tells you you're not even human. Not sane. Not normal. Not this. Not that. I'm tired of being told I don't exist. I'm tired of being shot at from all fronts.

I'm not telling you who you are or who you should be. Sure go ahead and give your opinion on the subject, but don't expect me not to give my opinion back. The problem I have with your perspective is that your perspective, were it reality, would deny people the right to be themselves all because they choose not use the same terminology you do. And yeah, while you have the right to make that claim, I have the right to speak against it.

As for the differences between FtMs and male id'd butches, the point myself and others were making before is that, depending on the individual, there may very well not be a clear cut difference. It depends on the individual because not everyone sees their identity the same way.

I still am unclear as to whether you are transitioning or not, which doesn't really matter. I do however associate the term BUTCH with woman/female. (pertaining to this topic). I know that many have different views/opinions and that is their right. I am respectful when I am around butches who want to be called male pronouns. I would not knowingly disrespect someone by intentionally calling them by a pronoun different than what they've chosen for themselves. Whether or not they use them in the real world or not.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.

[Corkey]

I don't recall asking for your approval ... did we not cover the fact that you don't seek approval for who you are and what you do? You don't have to read me if it bothers you, but I'll decide what to get over for myself , m'kay? I don't make a habit of doing what I'm told.

You know until you voiced your opinion (read disapproval) folks were getting along nicely. Not that everyone agreed, they didn't. You are taking all of this a wee bit personal and I have to ask myself why. Is there something you need from this discussion, other than all of us bow to the "man". You don't get to be the great decider, Bush beat you to the title. Folks are going to agree or not based on facts, you haven't brought any to the table, other than a "standard" that isn't. People will be themselves, whether you like it or not. I see you are fairly new to "this" site, lots of folks have gone over the gender discussion on other threads, and sites, you are late to the table.

[RavynTuqiri]

Hmmm...how can one expect the world outside of the GLBT community to
accept our individuality when we ourselves can not embrace our own?

I may walk with a friend down the same path and share the same experiences but I do not expect that friend to come away with the same views, thoughts, feelings...memories. How can I...we do not share the same eyes nor the same heart.

I value the differing opinions on the subject because I want to know...does not mean we should be passing judgment on an opinion for being different. There is no right and wrong here...

[Corkey]

[QUOTE=Deviant;174786]The HBSOC isn't a law, it's a guideline. I don't believe Michael was stating his opinion as if it were law. I know that he just believes very much in those guidelines and their effectiveness. As is his right. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose about the HBSOC, however, calling my husband judgmental is making it personal. IMHO

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO



I still am unclear as to whether you are transitioning or not, which doesn't really matter. I do however associate the term BUTCH with woman/female. (pertaining to this topic). I know that many have different views/opinions and that is their right. I am respectful when I am around butches who want to be called male pronouns. I would not knowingly disrespect someone by intentionally calling them by a pronoun different than what they've chosen for themselves. Whether or not they use them in the real world or not.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.



It isn't your place to decide for others, you don't have the authority. Opinion only goes so far. You can ask but Ender doesn't owe you an answer, your opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things in his world, or for that matter mine.

[Stacy]

You know until you voiced your opinion (read disapproval) folks were getting along nicely. Not that everyone agreed, they didn't. You are taking all of this a wee bit personal and I have to ask myself why. Is there something you need from this discussion, other than all of us bow to the "man". You don't get to be the great decider, Bush beat you to the title. Folks are going to agree or not based on facts, you haven't brought any to the table, other than a "standard" that isn't. People will be themselves, whether you like it or not. I see you are fairly new to "this" site, lots of folks have gone over the gender discussion on other threads, and sites, you are late to the table.

I believe Michael joined before you. He is certainly not new to this site, or this community, or this subject. Michael was giving his opinion like everyone else when he stated that he believes the HBSOC should be upheld. You are the one that made it personal by calling him judgmental. As far as the quotations around man, nice touch. My husband does not think he's better than anyone just because he has transitioned and is legally male. He is more than happy to answer questions and help others in the process. He didn't say he should decide who takes T and transitions and who doesn't. He just knows how that the process worked well with him and many of his friends and that it does have value. As is his right. So you don't believe in the HBSOC, we get that. Why make it personal and call him judgmental and bring Bush into it. Haven't we all had enough of him?

[imperfect_cupcake]

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.

good question. No one I know in London who uses soley he, uses T and considers themselves soley male (sex, not gender) considers themselves butch.

It only seems to be the people I know who use T and consider themselves a mix of male and female (sex) and entirely their own category (gender) still use that word as messy inaccurate short hand but they aren't married to the ID. Many use Boi.

I'm guessing that's different here....

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.

Sorry, for those who do. I'm not expecting you to educate me. it's just pure naive ignorance on my part. Willing and happy to be corrected.

[Corkey]

So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period. [/COLOR][/B]


Really, I think you two need to look over each others posts and answer this.

Gatekeeping is so passe'

[Stacy]

It isn't your place to decide for others, you don't have the authority. Opinion only goes so far. You can ask but Ender doesn't owe you an answer, your opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things in his world, or for that matter mine.

I did not ask Ender to explain himself to me. I said whether or not I know doesn't really matter. I am not saying I'm an authority on this subject either. I believe I already said I'm not claiming to be Harry Benjamin himself. Obviously my opinion doesn't matter to you, but it may matter to someone who is of the same thoughts/opinions. While my opinion may be different than yours, I still have the right to voice it. Tell me once where I said I thought I had a right to decide for others??

[Rufusboi]

You know until you voiced your opinion (read disapproval) folks were getting along nicely. Not that everyone agreed, they didn't. You are taking all of this a wee bit personal and I have to ask myself why. Is there something you need from this discussion, other than all of us bow to the "man". You don't get to be the great decider, Bush beat you to the title. Folks are going to agree or not based on facts, you haven't brought any to the table, other than a "standard" that isn't. People will be themselves, whether you like it or not. I see you are fairly new to "this" site, lots of folks have gone over the gender discussion on other threads, and sites, you are late to the table.


Corkey - self made man joined this site a month before you did. When someone joins has no bearing. Many of us have been over this same topic many times but, speaking for myself, it helps me learn. I still need to go over it many more times and have no answers or easy answers to any of the gender issues or questions that come up. My ID has changed over the years too just like it has for many people on this site. Its a long journey for all of us and the questions never end and the answers and points of view are all different depending not just on who you talk to but when you talk to them. I still have questions and confusions about all these topics and I've been at this table for many years.

Rufus

[Corkey]

good question. No one I know in London who uses soley he, uses T and considers themselves soley male (sex, not gender) considers themselves butch.

It only seems to be the people I know who use T and consider themselves a mix of male and female (sex) and entirely their own category (gender) still use that word as short hand.

I'm guessing that's different here....

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.

Sorry, for those who do. I'm not expecting you to educate me. it's just pure naive ignorance on my part. Willing and happy to be corrected.

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

[Corkey]

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

In answer to Deviant.....your words.

[Stacy]

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.


I was just saying in mind, in this community, when I hear/see the term butch, that I, personally, associated that term with a woman. It also has very good feelings for me when I hear it, because I happen to find butch women pretty damn sexy. Just sayin' ;)

I know that this isn't the case for everyone though. I also know that people can use butch to describe whatever they want it to encompass. Urban dictionary is full of new definitions of old words.

[Corkey]

I really have a hard time when femmes and lesbian ID'd butches come into a Male ID'd/FTM thread and spout off too, but here you are. Now I would have been run off if I came into a femme or lesbian ID'd butch thread and said the following..."I find male ID'd Butches sexy as hell and they are men in my opinion." Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[Thinker]

Moderating

Hold up, please...

Some of the exchanges here are getting entirely too personal, hurtful, and disrespectful.

At this time, I suggest taking a 24-hour posting break if you know you are typing in an angry state. And we all know when we are doing that...

One of the expectations here is that we remain considerate and respectful of all members. That does not mean we all see eye-to-eye or that we even come close to agreeing, but it does mean that we disagree as respectfully as possible. And sometimes it means just agreeing to disagree.

Again, if you feel pretty pissed right now, please take a break from the website.

Thinker (moderating)

[Stacy]

Deleted post as I did it before moderation. Sorry

[RavynTuqiri]

So then....what do you all think of a third gender? If a third gender
exists, then the rules of each specific gender do not inherently apply
nor do the rules of switching from one gender to the other.

[Corkey]

Far from pissed but thank you Thinker.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

[EnderD_503]

The HBSOC isn't a law, it's a guideline. I don't believe Michael was stating his opinion as if it were law. I know that he just believes very much in those guidelines and their effectiveness. As is his right. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose about the HBSOC, however, calling my husband judgmental is making it personal. IMHO

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

Why, exactly should that gate be tended? What is it's supposed "effectiveness."

I still am unclear as to whether you are transitioning or not, which doesn't really matter. I do however associate the term BUTCH with woman/female. (pertaining to this topic). I know that many have different views/opinions and that is their right. I am respectful when I am around butches who want to be called male pronouns. I would not knowingly disrespect someone by intentionally calling them by a pronoun different than what they've chosen for themselves. Whether or not they use them in the real world or not.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.


Please show me where exactly I wrote that "labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing." It's far more complicated than that. I answered the precise questions you're asking now in the post you chose not to read. I wrote some four paragraphs on why I continue to hold on to the term "stone butch" and why I don't see that term as equatable with "woman" or "female" for myself. On top of that I also expained why I have an aversion towards the words "transition," "FtM" and "transsexual." I'm not going to sit here and type out another huge post directed at you, that you problably won't even read.

But in case you're still interested: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=174741&postcount=43

Note to Self: Only voice your opinion if it is the popular one. Otherwise, temper tantrums and mud slinging are sure to follow.

I can't help but laugh for personal reasons when you make the comment of "only voice your opinion if it is the popular one" since I'm generally the master of unpopular opinions it seems. It's all in how you stage your argument, and if you're argument is one that blatantly disrespects others, don't expect respect back. Can't also help but be amused at your claim about "temper tantrums" and "mudslinging".

When I stated that my problem with your perspective was that it would require that if it were followed in the real world people would not have the freedom to make decisions about their own bodies or to generally be themselves, that was not mudslinging...that was following a logical train of thought. Please explain how I was supposed to deduce otherwise when you claim that only people who, by your own definition, plan to "transition" should be given testosterone.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I wrote some four paragraphs on why I continue to hold on to the term "stone butch" and why I don't see that term as equatable with "woman" or "female" for myself. On top of that I also expained why I have an aversion towards the words "transition," "FtM" and "transsexual."

actually you did, Ender. Apologies. I hadn't taken your answer into consideration for some unknown reason in my head, you get your very own category. lol. Aren't you special!

[Soon]

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.
[/B]



Deviant,

I'm not sure if you saw posts 19 and 20, but there are two members who explained the retention of their ID as butch after transition.

Self Made Man,

You stated that if someone doesn't intend to transition, they shouldn't be on hormones and, yet, the HBSOC allows for people who have no intention of having surgery or real life experience to be on hormones.

I was just wondering your thoughts on that considering you are pro-HBSOC and, yet, their guidelines seem to contradict your position.

Personally, I think Harry Benjamin has its place but I don't think that it should be stringently applied to all without exceptions.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm not sure if you saw posts 19 and 20, but there are two members who explained the retention of their ID as butch after transition.




is there? that's fucking embarrassing :blush: whoops - I was asking as well. Thanks for that, I'll just slink off and read those... I should have been a bit more diligent in reading if I'm going to post...
I feel like I just trod in someone's cake and asked them where the cake was...

[SelfMadeMan]

Not pissed at all - never was :)

[DapperButch]

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

[DapperButch]

So then....what do you all think of a third gender? If a third gender
exists, then the rules of each specific gender do not inherently apply
nor do the rules of switching from one gender to the other.

If:

Sex = male, female, intersexed

Gender = man, woman, Butch, etc.

Did you mean third sex?

(Side note: Many see butch as inherently third gendered.).

[AtLast]

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

Hey, Dapper-

I think this is really important. However, I am not either, but have had conversations with folks that are very clear about these distinctions for themselves. I can't speak to this, really, but, I do have a personal concern about not wanting mis-information to be floating around about these distinctions. This could be (without even meaning it to be) dismissive to our transsexed members. This is just a complex set of variables and does have bio-physiological and medical parameters to understand.

Anyway, glad to see this distinction clarified. Maybe someone with knowledge about this will offer information so that the distinction does not get lost in assumptions. This can get very sensitive.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

yes and more popular use of that term. And in that, seperating transgender from transsexed. which my brain really thanks you for. that's the one I "come of age" with.

Corkey's use still slightly confuses me as I'm not quite certain of the underlaying premise of his terms, but I don't really need to completely understand. it's sort of close enough and it's not really all that important - Corkey is still completely Corkey, regardless of if I can follow it with my own upbringing of terms or not.

my mind is probably geared to non-specifics better. maybe I'm just a generalist, blurry person. I get along better with really gappingly wide terms.
It's why, ever though I'm fairly gender fluid I can't be arsed with defining it (too muuuuch wooork. lazy.) and just go with generalist "femme" with no qualifiers. I also don't care if I'm called she or sie.

I do actually really appreciate the effort people are taking to help me understand though!! jesus. that's actually pretty damn nice. So thank you, Dapper x

[Corkey]

For me
Transgender = who I am
Transexual = how I fuck

My sex isn't my gender and my gender isn't my sex.
And I just went and confused a whole lot of folks.

[RavynTuqiri]

A third gender in which the "rules" attempting to be applied
by the two main stream genders do not apply and by which
members who identify alternatively can apply their own rules,
definitions, and labels as they see fit.

The only requirement of the third gender is the understanding that
the third gender is grey and is up to each individual to color their own
palette as they see fit...while keeping open to marvel at the beauty
of the other portraits being painted around you.

[DapperButch]

Deviant,

I'm not sure if you saw posts 19 and 20, but there are two members who explained the retention of their ID as butch after transition.

Self Made Man,

You stated that if someone doesn't intend to transition, they shouldn't be on hormones and, yet, the HBSOC allows for people who have no intention of having surgery or real life experience to be on hormones.

I was just wondering your thoughts on that considering you are pro-HBSOC and, yet, their guidelines seem to contradict your position.

Personally, I think Harry Benjamin has its place but I don't think that it should be stringently applied to all without exceptions.





Right. The only expectation for hormones and chest reconstruction is one letter from a therapist saying you have a gender identity disorder and meet "readiness criteria"

For genital surgery you must live full time for one year as the opposite sex and you need two letters for sugery.

The standards of care actually specifically state:

Can Hormones Be Given To Those Who Do Not Want Surgery or a Real-life Experience? :
Yes, but after diagnosis and psychotherapy with a qualified mental health professional following
minimal standards listed above. Hormone therapy can provide significant comfort to gender
patients who do not wish to cross live or undergo surgery, or who are unable to do so. In some
patients, hormone therapy alone may provide sufficient symptomatic relief to obviate the need
for cross living or surgery.

[imperfect_cupcake]

For me
Transgender = who I am
Transexual = how I fuck

My sex isn't my gender and my gender isn't my sex.
And I just went and confused a whole lot of folks.

LOL!!!!

ok that helps.

transgender = who you are, totally understand.

transexual = how you fuck. I think I get. you mean in hetero - meaning fucking opposite sex to how you see your own body?

sorry corkey it's getting personal and feel free to tell me to fuck off and mind me own biz!

[EnderD_503]

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

Haha, and so we come full circle :p Every label is different for everyone. There is no widespread or clear cut definition that applies to how everyone applies their own identity.

And so to the question the OP initially asked, we're back to the beginning. What is the difference between a male id'd butch and an FtM? Well, what's the difference between one FtM and another. Not every FtM sees themselves the same way or views the label FtM the same way. We've even had some guys who have "transitioned" here in this very thread who claim they don't see themselves as male despite the fact that they've "transitioned" (sorry for the quotations, I just dislike that word) physically and even changed their gender legally. Same way that not every male id'd butch understands that identity the same way. Some of us identify as 100% male, others feel differently. Or male but not in the same way someone born biologically male might consider themselves male (which is a whole other kettle of fish, since we shouldn't assume that every single biologically born male understands themselves in the same way as though they're all carbon copies of one another.). Some of us plan on transitioning/are transitioning/have transitioned while others have no such plan to do so while still considering themselves male. Some of us like the colour blue, others like yellow. Some of us hate brussel sprouts, others devour them like they're god's gift to humanity.

My point: sure we all have commonalities and dissimilarities. I may have more in common with someone who identifies as FtM than with someone who identifies as male id'd butch (talking about experiences, identity etc. here), or I may have more in common with another male id'd butch than with another FtM. There might not actually be a huge difference or any difference at all beyond terminology depending on the individual. Or the terminology and being male might be all we have in common. Or not. Often in order for discussions to occur there needs to be agreement on a common vocabulary...the problem is that having a common vocabulary with identical meanings doesn't really work when talking about how people understand themselves or identify themselves to others.

[Corkey]

LOL!!!!

ok that helps.

transgender = who you are, totally understand.

transexual = how you fuck. I think I get. you mean in hetero - meaning fucking opposite sex to how you see your own body?

sorry corkey it's getting personal and feel free to tell me to fuck off and mind me own biz!

bing bing bing we have a winner!!!! Precisely.

[BullDog]

Often in order for discussions to occur there needs to be agreement on a common vocabulary...the problem is that having a common vocabulary with identical meanings doesn't really work when talking about how people understand themselves or identify themselves to others.

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

[Corkey]

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

And you don't consider yourself male ID'd. And that is fine with me, just another color in the spectrum.

[BullDog]

And you don't consider yourself male ID'd. And that is fine with me, just another color in the spectrum.

Yes, agreed Corkey.

[Corkey]

Yes, agreed Corkey.

Just as Butch has a spectrum, so does Transgender, those who are on it will have their own identity and definition of who They are. Isn't diversity fun.

[imperfect_cupcake]

bing bing bing we have a winner!!!! Precisely.


woohoo! I get the giant stuffed panda!!!


We've even had some guys who have "transitioned" here in this very thread who claim they don't see themselves as male despite the fact that they've "transitioned" (sorry for the quotations, I just dislike that word) physically and even changed their gender legally.

see that, I'm more familiar with. The term I was told by a few I know/knew was FtQ/M
"transitioning" to their own queerly defined sex/gender (just matching things up better). I personally like the word if it's used in a ritual sense rather than a medical sense as I've known people to "make transitions" to very different stages of their life to celebrate achievements or what not. And running the gauntlet (transition) to their desired "state." that doesn't even sound quite right either. nevermind.

They use FtM as messy imprecise short hand. I'm not saying everyone does, but the individuals I'm thinking of did.

I'm by no means not trying to say I know much, I'm only trying to... ah... contextualise my knowledge/ignorance divide so people know where I'm coming from. Reflexivity ;)

I'm learning. Thanks for the patience :rrose: to everyone so far in allowing me to participate in this space.

[DapperButch]

Hey, Dapper-

I think this is really important. However, I am not either, but have had conversations with folks that are very clear about these distinctions for themselves. I can't speak to this, really, but, I do have a personal concern about not wanting mis-information to be floating around about these distinctions. This could be (without even meaning it to be) dismissive to our transsexed members. This is just a complex set of variables and does have bio-physiological and medical parameters to understand.

Anyway, glad to see this distinction clarified. Maybe someone with knowledge about this will offer information so that the distinction does not get lost in assumptions. This can get very sensitive.

Yes, personally, for me, if I was transsexual (meaning FTM), I would never use the term transgender. It would throw things off.

I have seen the word transgendered used in quite a few ways:

1) an umbrella term for FTMs, genderqueers, crossdressers (of the non-trans persuasion), etc. I am pretty certain this was the first usage of the term

2) For people who tend to see themselves as between sexes - male/female

3) other ways


I'm #2 and think that there are enough of us around to shift things this way! lol

The only problem with the term (which I talked about in another thread on another site), is that it has the word gender in it when really in definition #2 we are talking about a person's sex. So, really we need another term (and no, genderqueer is not the same thing to me...and again, there is that pesky gender word again when really referring to a person's sex!)

Anyway, my initial point was going to be that I think that if I was transsexed that it would bother me if the word transgendered was used when describing me. They are NOT the same thing and I would feel misunderstood/misrepresented, I think.

Just my two cents of rambling for ya...

[imperfect_cupcake]

Just as Butch has a spectrum, so does Transgender, those who are on it will have their own identity and definition of who They are. Isn't diversity fun.

rotflmao after the nerf bat bonking is over...

[DapperButch]

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.


No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

[BullDog]

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

[julieisafemme]

I know for myself a lot of the frustration and confusion comes when trying to define my partner's gender within the context of male and female. Sometimes it is more defining what he is not. He is not a woman. Never was and never felt like one. He is a transmasculine butch. That is his gender. Not female. Not male. He has legally transitioned and yet still retains butch as his gender. He does not use the term FtM to define himself.

If feels uncomfortable to me when we discuss how others choose to change their bodies. The problem I have seen with the Harry Benjamin guidelines is that they are too rigid in defining gender and the wide range that encompasses.

[BullDog]

Well, I have had the same difficulty as HB with understanding the term male identified butch, whereas TG Butch has always made sense to me. I am not sure they mean the exact same thing and it will vary from individual to individual. I have always associated male= biological sex and man/woman/butch/femme etc = gender, so male being used in what seems to me to be gender terms does confuse me.

I just got into the habit that if someone says they are male then I consider them male. It doesn't have to do with biology, surgery, transitioning, hormones, etc. It has to do with who they say they are. Not everyone has the same options or makes the same decisions based on how to align their physical body and legal status with their gender, biological sex or physical body attributes. I think many who consider themselves to be male id'd butches- it is more about their mind than actual physical body, or where the two meet. Ender did talk about that.

I was reading something today about the Nikki Araguz case. It wasn't written by a scientist but it did make sense to me. The person was talking about how we tend to exaggerate the role that reproductive organs play in determining biological sex, when it fact they are actually, in many ways, a minor component of the physical body. There is of course reproduction of the species, which is quite important, but in terms of how we relate to our bodies our genitals are not the be all, end all. Then there's the fact that I'm a woman and have a cock whether it's strapped on or not. ;)

OK the last paragraph may not make a lot of sense, but anyway I think biological sex is more than about what the textbook definitions of male and female are, lol. First of all we all know that intersex does exist. Also, there may be scientific basis for biological sex, but most of what we understand our biological sex and physical bodies to be and mean come from cultural and personal understanding. Most of us are not scientists.

[Corkey]

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

Bully I don't think Dapper is saying that. Third gender is as much an identity on the spectrum as the rest of the identifications folks use to describe who they are to an audience that understands the concepts of gender.
Make since?

[DapperButch]

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.

[BullDog]

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.

I am not being argumentative. I am saying that to say inherently third gender would be inaccurate- emphasis on word inherently. I did not take it to mean that you, Dapper, thought that.

[imperfect_cupcake]

The only problem with the term (which I talked about in another thread on another site), is that it has the word gender in it when really in definition #2 we are talking about a person's sex. So, really we need another term (and no, genderqueer is not the same thing to me...and again, there is that pesky gender word again when really referring to a person's sex!)

agreed that it is easier for me to grasp if they are separated - in some people it *is* both though. I'm just thinking of some mates.

and yes the umbrella term of the genderqueer scene here in London is imprecise - here it refers to physical transformations in conjunction with genderblending or gender individuality or gender fluidity, usually with a strong dyke presence. However, I do know what a comfortable mixed bag (FtM, MtF, butch, boi, genderfuck, transexual to ones own thing, intersex, femme, bird, bear, just me's, dolly mixtures, ad infinitum) the club will be if it's advertised as such.

Club Wotever uses "wotever" for a reason. It's not so imprecise, it's just blurry and apathetic lol.


I don't see it getting defined here in London more though. Nobody really uses qualifiers even with butch or femme. I don't personally know anyone who publicly calls themselves "stone butch" - privately maybe, in a relationship. Genderqueer is more the name of the community, I think... *ponder* Ish.

[DapperButch]

I am not being argumentative. I am saying that to say inherently third gender would be inaccurate- emphasis on word inherently. I did not take it to mean that you, Dapper, thought that.


Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

[DapperButch]

agreed that it is easier for me to grasp if they are separated - in some people it *is* both though. I'm just thinking of some mates.

and yes the umbrella term of the genderqueer scene here in London is imprecise - here it refers to physical transformations in conjunction with genderblending or gender individuality or gender fluidity, usually with a strong dyke presence. However, I do know what a comfortable mixed bag (FtM, MtF, butch, boi, genderfuck, transexual to ones own thing, intersex, femme, bird, bear, just me's, dolly mixtures, ad infinitum) the club will be if it's advertised as such.

Club Wotever uses "wotever" for a reason. It's not so imprecise, it's just blurry and apathetic lol.


I don't see it getting defined here in London more though. Nobody really uses qualifiers even with butch or femme. I don't personally know anyone who publicly calls themselves "stone butch" - privately maybe, in a relationship. Genderqueer is more the name of the community, I think... *ponder* Ish.

Yes, I have heard about your Club Wotever. If I ever make it to London I am SO going there! Sounds fantastic! (As does the rest of your queer culture).

[BullDog]

Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

[AtLast]

agreed that it is easier for me to grasp if they are separated - in some people it *is* both though. I'm just thinking of some mates.

and yes the umbrella term of the genderqueer scene here in London is imprecise - here it refers to physical transformations in conjunction with genderblending or gender individuality or gender fluidity, usually with a strong dyke presence. However, I do know what a comfortable mixed bag (FtM, MtF, butch, boi, genderfuck, transexual to ones own thing, intersex, femme, bird, bear, just me's, dolly mixtures, ad infinitum) the club will be if it's advertised as such.

Club Wotever uses "wotever" for a reason. It's not so imprecise, it's just blurry and apathetic lol.


I don't see it getting defined here in London more though. Nobody really uses qualifiers even with butch or femme. I don't personally know anyone who publicly calls themselves "stone butch" - privately maybe, in a relationship. Genderqueer is more the name of the community, I think... *ponder* Ish.

Frankly, it sounds much less stuck in old patriarchal gender distinctions and uptight sexual mores (unfortunately, major US fundamentasl of society) to me! It has been years since I was in the UK, but, when you and HB and others talk about it in terms of this, I long for anbother visit! I was het when there last.

[Corkey]

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

Ok in the context of this thread is where Dapper is using "inherently". No not all butches are third gendered, nor are they female, or male or transgendered. They are all over the spectrum and in the context of this male id'd/ FTM thread it may make more since than a strictly female lesbian butch thread. Yes? No?

[BullDog]

Ok in the context of this thread is where Dapper is using "inherently". No not all butches are third gendered, nor are they female, or male or transgendered. They are all over the spectrum and in the context of this male id'd/ FTM thread it may make more since than a strictly female lesbian butch thread. Yes? No?

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs who don't consider themselves to be third gender. Not sure if all male id'd butches do.

[Corkey]

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs and perhaps also male id'd butches who don't consider themselves to be third gender or transgender.

You may be correct, but so is Dapper. That's the beauty of each individual having their say in how they perceive themselves.

When trying to pidgin hole a group there's bound to be those who refuse to comply. YEY! There are no set ground rules, no set in stone ways of being. To each their own.

[Soon]

I don't know if it's just where I am from, but I have never heard of male - Id (or trans) butches until I joined these sites a few years ago.

I *thought* butches were masculine lesbians.

Well, that former notion of butch has expanded, but, honestly, it is only on these sites that I have heard of people Id'ing as butch AND male (or even trans too)--where there is no acknowledgement of female in conjunction with the ID of butch I guess is what I am trying to (poorly?) express.

Deviant wrote of her curiosity concerning people who have transitioned and retain butch as part of their identity.

This prompted me to wonder what lesbian butches (if anything) think of those who have physically transitioned from F to M and, yet, also retain the ID of butch?

I'm not sure if there's anyone besides Bulldog who id's as a lesbian butch on this thread, so I don't want to put you on the spot Bully, but I was curious if butches had any thoughts or feelings on the retention of butch as an ID for those who have transitioned.

[BullDog]

You may be correct, but so is Dapper. That's the beauty of each individual having their say in how they perceive themselves.

When trying to pidgin hole a group there's bound to be those who refuse to comply. YEY! There are no set ground rules, no set in stone ways of being. To each their own.

I just don't think butches are inherently third gender. That is all. I don't even think Dapper necessarily thinks that either. So I never did have a quarrel with Dapper.

Inherent means an essential characteristic, so no, I would say not true about all butches, but may be truer for more male id'd butches but not all. I am not sure what the third in third gender is supposed to be referring to. I think there are lots more than just three genders (woman, man, butch, femme, etc etc).

[Corkey]

I just don't think butches are inherently third gender. That is all. I don't even think Dapper necessarily thinks that either. So I never did have a quarrel with Dapper.

Inherent means an essential characteristic, so no, I would say not true about all butches, but may be truer for more male id'd butches but not all. I am not sure what the third in third gender is supposed to be referring to. I think there are lots more than just three genders (woman, man, butch, femme, etc etc).

Oh Bully there are many more, that you don't know of them is something I think you will have to investigate on your own. Inherently... in the context of this thread I don't find issue with. Remember you are talking to and about those with whom you don't identify. Our since of self will be much different that yours. Just as mine is different than an Lesbian ID'd Female Butch. I think you and I have had this discussion before, yes? Just because the english dictionary doesn't have the words, doesn't mean there aren't other words in another language, some not spoken that have more definition than what we in the US use.

[BullDog]

Oh Bully there are many more, that you don't know of them is something I think you will have to investigate on your own. Inherently... in the context of this thread I don't find issue with. Remember you are talking to and about those with whom you don't identify. Our since of self will be much different that yours. Just as mine is different than an Lesbian ID'd Female Butch. I think you and I have had this discussion before, yes? Just because the english dictionary doesn't have the words, doesn't mean there aren't other words in another language, some not spoken that have more definition than what we in the US use.

Corkey I don't understand what your issue is with me. Not all butches are third gender, not all third gender are butches. That is all.

[EnderD_503]

I was reading something today about the Nikki Araguz case. It wasn't written by a scientist but it did make sense to me. The person was talking about how we tend to exaggerate the role that reproductive organs play in determining biological sex, when it fact they are actually, in many ways, a minor component of the physical body. There is of course reproduction of the species, which is quite important, but in terms of how we relate to our bodies our genitals are not the be all, end all. Then there's the fact that I'm a woman and have a cock whether it's strapped on or not. ;)

OK the last paragraph may not make a lot of sense, but anyway I think biological sex is more than about what the textbook definitions of male and female are, lol. First of all we all know that intersex does exist. Also, there may be scientific basis for biological sex, but most of what we understand our biological sex and physical bodies to be and mean come from cultural and personal understanding. Most of us are not scientists.

I agree with what you've said and that there is probably more to biological sex. But I just wanted to make a note on the last bit. There is also a scientific basis for "brain sex" or neurological sex. In the last decade or so it's been found that those born in biologically female bodies who consider themselves male tend to have somatostatin neuron numbers in the brain in the male range (men have double the number that women have), while biologically born males who consider themselves female have numbers in the female range. So there does seem to be a scientific basis in the feeling of maleness or femaleness despite biological sex or being neither one. I think it would be interesting to see further studies, since, as we've all discussed here, the spectrum of identification goes beyond male and female and there are likely answers regarding how we identify in all of our brains.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the popularly viewed importance of reproductive organs.

@HowSoonIsNow, I don't think that it is necessarily all that recently that the term butch has expanded or that butch has always necessarily meant masculine lesbian. Just thinking of Stone Butch Blues (as far as I remember, Jess talked about not feeling like a lesbian, not feeling female or male but something else. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, my memory's foggy) and even some of what's been said by prominent butch or tg authors, people around these sites, at conferences like Butch Voices (from what I've had the chance to see of the conference on youtube...would love to go one day) as well who talked about the butch/femme scene in the 50's, 60's, 70's as well as how both older and younger butches see their identity. I can't say out of personal experience, I wasn't there, but that's what I've gathered from hearing and reading what others who were have had to say. Maybe those who did not identify as lesbian were not the majority of the butch population in the past, but from what I gather still present. Just as male id'd butches today are pretty much a minority among those who do identify as butch, but still present.

[Corkey]

Corkey I don't understand what your issue is with me. Not all butches are third gender, not all third gender are butches. That is all.

Bully I have no issue with you, I have issue with you coming on a male ID'd thread and insisting we look at butch in only your way. You are trying to put words in folks mouths that aren't there. Yes, Bully there are more identities than you know of, not all are anything and no one here has said as much. Breathe. There are no IMPERATIVES when understanding humanity.

[BullDog]

Bully I have no issue with you, I have issue with you coming on a male ID'd thread and insisting we look at butch in only your way. You are trying to put words in folks mouths that aren't there. Yes, Bully there are more identities than you know of, not all are anything and no one here has said as much. Breathe. There are no IMPERATIVES when understanding humanity.

No Corkey, I am not insisting people look at butch in my way. Not all butches are third gender and there are more than three genders. For those who identify with the term they are free to do so.

[Corkey]

No Corkey, I am not insisting people look at butch in my way. Not all butches are third gender and there are more than three genders. For those who identify with the term they are free to do so.

Bully no one said there was, do you have a tape running in your head from another thread, where are you coming from? This is a ring around and it's getting boring. No Bully not every, not ALL not even a majority...feel better? Remember it's a spectrum and some do and some are and some will be.

[BullDog]

Bully no one said there was, do you have a tape running in your head from another thread, where are you coming from? This is a ring around and it's getting boring. No Bully not every, not ALL not even a majority...feel better? Remember it's a spectrum and some do and some are and some will be.

Corkey who are you arguing with? Really this is quite tiresome.

[Thinker]

Far from pissed but thank you Thinker.

Not pissed at all - never was :)

Sorry to be away so long but wanted to make sure I followed up on this...

I'm glad to hear no one was really "pissed". :) However, there was definitely some heat in here as well as some not-so-kind exchanges.

I'm glad to see things have gotten back on a positive track; lots of us are.

All we ask is that everyone continue to discuss very personal and important issues such as identities with respect, compassion, and understanding.

Thinker (moderating)

[Corkey]

Moving on.. I find it really sad that someone who has been involved with this conversation from the beginning has to unsubscribe from it...

[Thinker]

Corkey who are you arguing with? Really this is quite tiresome.

Hey BullDog...

Perhaps a conversation like this is best held in private. I'm asking that you either do that or just let it go.

This conversation is important to a lot of people, and we'd all like to see it stay focused and positive. Please contact me via PM if you have any questions or anything you'd like to address.

Thinker (moderating)

[BullDog]

Hey BullDog...

Perhaps a conversation like this is best held in private. I'm asking that you either do that or just let it go.

This conversation is important to a lot of people, and we'd all like to see it stay focused and positive. Please contact me via PM if you have any questions or anything you'd like to address.

Thinker (moderating)

Thinker I am not arguing with Corkey. He is arguing with things I never said.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Bully no one said there was, do you have a tape running in your head from another thread, where are you coming from? This is a ring around and it's getting boring. No Bully not every, not ALL not even a majority...feel better? Remember it's a spectrum and some do and some are and some will be.

the two of you are both saying exactly the same thing Corky there's no argument. I think there's just misfiring. :)

[Thinker]

Thinker I am not arguing with Corkey. He is arguing with things I never said.

Bulldog, I asked you to address this via PM...which we have done.....so I do not see the need to post here as well.

Let's get the thread discussion back on track, please.

Thinker (moderating)

[BullDog]

the two of you are both saying exactly the same thing Corky there's no argument. I think there's just misfiring. :)

Exactly, there isn't.

[imperfect_cupcake]

oops, sorry thinker. just caught up.

[Corkey]

Thinker I am not arguing with Corkey. He is arguing with things I never said.


Bully take it from me I have no reason to argue with you. Reread.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Bully take it from me I have no reason to argue with you. Reread.

Ixnay, dudes, before you get spanked. *pointy finger behind hand to Dad*

[EnderD_503]

see that, I'm more familiar with. The term I was told by a few I know/knew was FtQ/M
"transitioning" to their own queerly defined sex/gender (just matching things up better). I personally like the word if it's used in a ritual sense rather than a medical sense as I've known people to "make transitions" to very different stages of their life to celebrate achievements or what not. And running the gauntlet (transition) to their desired "state." that doesn't even sound quite right either. nevermind.


I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address :p I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

[Stearns]

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address :p I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

I get what you are saying here, Ender, and if our society were different there would be no 'need' to label anyone anything other than human. However, b/c labels can convey important information about us that we want others to know, I will continue to call myself a transman, rather than simply man. I want others to know that I am firmly rooted in the LGBT community and, further, that there is no shame or embarrassment (and nothing inherently wrong, except in the dysphoric sense) in being born biologically female.

[Thinker]

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

You have a remarkable way of "being" and expressing yourself. I was nowhere near this evolved at 25, dude. Seriously. I've enjoyed reading you here.

I appreciate you explaining this because it helps me more fully understand when male ID'd folks say they have no plans, no need to transition. I can get that now. So thank you.

I will also say that I wish you well in all that you are doing to get to where you want to be physically......wherever that may be for you. Should you end up in a new "suit" someday, I believe you really will love it and know a peace unimaginable.

Thanks again, young man.

Thinker (site member)

[imperfect_cupcake]

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address :p I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol


No I get that. I guess I was more along the lines of the transition boys had to make into men - sometimes it took up to a year of being separate from the group to think about the changes that would be expected from them, the changes their body would be going through and the changes in responsibility. Like say the Bull roarer ceremony at the end of that period. After that, they no longer lived with their mothers. They were always male. they were always who their personalities were. it's just an acknowledgement that things will change socially/recognition wise.

Or a wedding ceremony - you may have been living together for several years before the wedding. Now comes the legal commitment with all the majour differences than can entail - legally.

Of course the person and who that person is has always been there in both examples. There's just a formal recognition and the leading up period of preparation for formally acknowledged differences.

I do get what you mean though.
as much as I can, like. It's not something within my experience that particular journey. I have my own "transitions" that were always present, but nothing of that flavour so I can't pretend to "get" it in the way it's experienced by those who go through that particular kind.

[AtLast]

Frankly, it sounds much less stuck in old patriarchal gender distinctions and uptight sexual mores (unfortunately, major US fundamentasl of society) to me! It has been years since I was in the UK, but, when you and HB and others talk about it in terms of this, I long for anbother visit! I was het when there last.

LOL.. I'm a bozo...I mean't HB to be Met... sorry, I'm old!

[EnderD_503]

No I get that. I guess I was more along the lines of the transition boys had to make into men - sometimes it took up to a year of being separate from the group to think about the changes that would be expected from them, the changes their body would be going through and the changes in responsibility. Like say the Bull roarer ceremony at the end of that period. After that, they no longer lived with their mothers. They were always male. they were always who their personalities were. it's just an acknowledgement that things will change socially/recognition wise.

Or a wedding ceremony - you may have been living together for several years before the wedding. Now comes the legal commitment with all the majour differences than can entail - legally.

Of course the person and who that person is has always been there in both examples. There's just a formal recognition and the leading up period of preparation for formally acknowledged differences.

I do get what you mean though.
as much as I can, like. It's not something within my experience that particular journey. I have my own "transitions" that were always present, but nothing of that flavour so I can't pretend to "get" it in the way it's experienced by those who go through that particular kind.

Ok, even though I said I got your post that I referenced, I think I misinterpreted it and thought I understood when I didn't fully. For some reason I wasn't thinking ritualistic in the same sense as you've described it here. That makes more sense to me when you put it that way, and I think I can somewhat agree on some level. I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement. I'm finding myself more inclined to seeing it like a coming of age ceremony like in you're first example, but I think I'm stuck on thinking one can have only one such ceremony. Then again, looking at my life I can already think of two (one at 13 and one which seemed to be ongoing between the ages of 19 and 23)...and now I'm arguing with myself lol I think I'll mull it over and come back later because I have something else to say, but I'm not quite sure what it is yet.

Thanks to all who've posted in response.

[citybutch]

Woman and female are two completely different things... in terms of meaning, etymological heritage, and values... I am female. I do not identify as woman. I strongly admire those females who DO identify as woman. Gender identity is a rainbow and not dualistic as our language binds us to... When we cannot find the words to define our grey area... then these types of struggles happen. The fact is... butch is not necessarily woman. It's not even necessarily female (which is what I think you were saying) Oh.. and I have seen plenty of non-butch men... man and butch is really not all that redundant...


Am jumping in and just thought I would add a thought or two...


I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement (...) and now I'm arguing with myself lol

lol! well, in that we are very much alike!!

[Jaques]

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on. Therefore - though a transguy, being born with female genitals, I will not deny I am physically female. I can never, by way of taking testosterone or the operations I had to alter my body to that which felt comfortable, be a biological male. Its much easier to accept that, since there is nothing more I can do about it.
I consider myself male in essence, i.e. I feel/dress/behave in a male fashion, though there are female characteristics, as there are with any bio male. Therefore, I accept myself, as I am and live as male - easier now I look masculine - if anyone finds out I was born female, i have no problem with them knowing and am happy to answer any questions they may have.

When I thought I was butch lesbian, i did have a problem - it felt very wrong - so my take on this question, is that one should go with what's right for them - it can take time, sometimes a lifetime to discover what that is...............and its often a painful journey

[Liam]

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on.

Some folks are born with genitals that are confusing to the people filling out the birth certificate. Sometimes procedures take place to remove the confusion, there is a fifty percent chance that the results of that procedure, will match the infant's mind later in life. Not every FTM is truly a female transitioning to male.

[Jaques]

Some folks are born with genitals that are confusing to the people filling out the birth certificate. Sometimes procedures take place to remove the confusion, there is a fifty percent chance that the results of that procedure, will match the infant's mind later in life. Not every FTM is truly a female transitioning to male.

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

[Liam]

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

[citybutch]

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

For ME, sex and gender are different... and there is a rainbow of expression for both... Male/female is a binary illusion... language and culture set us up to squeeze into one box or the other...

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

[Thinker]

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

Liam, that first sentence isn't very kind or welcoming. Please make an effort to keep your comments positive. If you have any questions, you are welcome to write via PM.

Thank you.

Thinker (moderating)

[Jaques]

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

....................yes, my spelling certainly needs a lot to be desired doesnt it?
Whether intersexed is the preferred term, im not sure but it means the same.

For ME, sex and gender are different... and there is a rainbow of expression for both... Male/female is a binary illusion... language and culture set us up to squeeze into one box or the other...

I think sexuality and gender are different - and, depending on your outlook, everything we are is an illusion brought about by our own minds/energy - but again thats a matter of personal belief............

[Jaques]

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

.................yes i know that -and 4 people thanked me for my post (thankyou) no wonder you call yourself "Mr crankypants" - lol!

[Liam]

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.


The term hermaphrodite is a stigmatizing and misleading term, it implies that a person is both male and female, which is impossible physiologically. One can possess parts of what is consider male or female, but one is neither completely male or female. It is an offensive word to the intersexed.

[Corkey]

The term hermaphrodite is a stigmatizing and misleading term, it implies that a person is both male and female, which is impossible physiologically. One can possess parts of what is consider male or female, but one is neither completely male or female. It is an offensive word to the intersexed.


City knows this and was correcting Jaques. :)

ETA: I want to publicly thank Liam for his kindness to me, you rawk buddy!

[Liam]

City knows this and was correcting Jaques. :)

I realise this, and I was hoping to educate others.

[Corkey]

I realise this, and I was hoping to educate others.

Gotcha!.....

[Corkey]

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

Actually we were talking Male ID"d Butches and FTM, not necessarily V.S. I do hope you will read the entire thread. Welcome to the thread.

[Jaques]

forgive me for "wandering" in the thread - intersexed is a relatively new word for hermaphradite - when i used it, it was not meant to be used in a derogatory way, but i am always happy to be educated - its how we learn - I am learning a lot from this site ................. its an education in itself

[SelfMadeMan]

I've been doing a lot of soul searching during the last few days about my attitudes/opinions on this subject and I just wanted to stop in here and apologize to those whom I offended with my posts earlier. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. I have had some pretty rigid opinions on the whole TG/TS thing. I think that this was because of the community being so different when I transitioned - prior to the Male ID'd Butch community being so present. The fact is, it doesn't affect me personally how anyone else ID's... and I do believe in individuality and having the right to be/look/live your life in a manner that makes you true to yourself - hence my tattoo on my chest that reads 'to thine ownself be true' I can't expect to have the freedom to live my truth while disagreeing with anothers. For that, I am truly sorry.
So anyway... I hope the conversation in here continues and we can all learn from one another.

[Greyson]

I don't know if it's just where I am from, but I have never heard of male - Id (or trans) butches until I joined these sites a few years ago.

I *thought* butches were masculine lesbians.

Well, that former notion of butch has expanded, but, honestly, it is only on these sites that I have heard of people Id'ing as butch AND male (or even trans too)--where there is no acknowledgement of female in conjunction with the ID of butch I guess is what I am trying to (poorly?) express.
Deviant wrote of her curiosity concerning people who have transitioned and retain butch as part of their identity.

This prompted me to wonder what lesbian butches (if anything) think of those who have physically transitioned from F to M and, yet, also retain the ID of butch?

I'm not sure if there's anyone besides Bulldog who id's as a lesbian butch on this thread, so I don't want to put you on the spot Bully, but I was curious if butches had any thoughts or feelings on the retention of butch as an ID for those who have transitioned.

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.

[BullDog]

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

[Greyson]

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.


Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

[AtLast]

forgive me for "wandering" in the thread - intersexed is a relatively new word for hermaphradite - when i used it, it was not meant to be used in a derogatory way, but I am always happy to be educated - its how we learn - I am learning a lot from this site ................. its an education in itself


Although I prefer this site to the old one, I had a difficult time leaving it when I did (don't have time to post in both) because finally, there were more intersexed people speaking up and offering a lot of good information. I get a lot of my information and suggestions for reading from my intersexed cousin, but, my hope is that this gender forms a much stronger presence here- not the same tenets apply to them that do for the TG.

I did post earlier (as a gender-blended female person, the identification I have found to be the most accurate for myself in the literature) about seeing why a transman would continue to identify as butch due to their history, which goes far deeper than an identification or label. It seems to fit for some people. I do view folks that take T, have gender reassignment surgeries and refer to them selves as men or male as transgendered and as men. Mainly, this is because of the bio-physiological and mental status scientific definitions put forth today in gender theory.

However, as has always been the case, I don't believe that everyone is going to fit neatly into specific gender identifications. Hell that is the reason gender-blended female person was introduced for people like me! There is just too much fluidity to gender as I see it for the continuation of rigid definitions.

Now, I do have a problem with one gaining male privilege, abusing it as cisgendered men have for centuries and wanting to claim butch in any female sense. That is just the same old patriarchal power dynamic that men have enjoyed forever. There does come a point in transitioning in which one will be viewed exclusively as male and this is where feminist thought (which is not exclusively the purview of women) needs some self-exploration.

Sometimes, a duck really is a duck and it doesn't matter if that duck started out as a pigeon. If it quacks, it's a duck.

I do feel that more discussions about the entire spectrum of gender as we know it today and especially intergendered manifestations (or female-ifestations), would give the entire site a much more well rounded learning curve on gender in its entirety. We seem to really focus on the TG in this all here as it relates to male, or men or masculinity. My personal sphere is about my comfort with female masculinity because that for me has not always been a congenial space and I am not transgendered, nor do I want to pass. I want to be recognized as the blending of gender that I am and just have that be OK!

The struggle for acceptance as we are with our female presentation (as female-identified butches for want of a better term) of what is defined as masculine is far from over. So is our need to have what is woman in us being recognized. We are just not that kind of woman or female! This is why, for me, the building of productive coalitions among the various genders that we all represent is critical in gaining equal rights and protections. It seems like we would be getting a lot further if we all could extract that butch history/experience from our souls and use it in conversations like this. We might find many more avenues to build alliances and coalitions. I know many TG men that speak from this space.

[BullDog]

Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

Yes, I realize that.

[Cowboi]

hermaphroditism- condition where both testicular and ovarian tissue exit in the same person, the testicular tissue containing seminiferous tubules or spermatozoa in the ovarian tissue containing corpora albicantia. A chomasomal abnormality.


psuedohermaphrodite- a congenital condition in which a person has either male or female gonads but external genitalia of the opposite sex, or both.




pseudohermaphroditism- a condition in which a exhibits the somatic characteristics of both sexes through possessing, the phsysical characteristics of either males or females.

[Cowboi]

hermaphroditism- condition where both testicular and ovarian tissue exit in the same person, the testicular tissue containing seminiferous tubules or spermatozoa in the ovarian tissue containing corpora albicantia. A chomasomal abnormality.


psuedohermaphrodite- a congenital condition in which a person has either male or female gonads but external genitalia of the opposite sex, or both.




pseudohermaphroditism- a condition in which a exhibits the somatic characteristics of both sexes through possessing, the phsysical characteristics of either males or females.


In the first paragraph the word exit should be exist.

[Corkey]

While I am pleased that we have a conversation about Intersexed individuals, this thread isn't about them.
Nor is it about Female ID'd Butches. It is about Male ID'd and FTM's, the differences that we see about the two id's and how we have some of the same issues. Don't know where we veered off topic.

[AtLast]

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.


Bully, my experience is very different than what is often (not always) presented here and in the real-time B-F/Tg/I/multi-sexuality based community I live in. This has become one of the reasons I am not posting as much in threads like this anymore. Also, many folks here are trying to figure out their gender variables and struggling deeply. I have been thinking that I'd rather see these members be able to find their path without so much of the divisive conversations we can get into. PM messages work well if we want to really talk on a more personal basis.

And sure, as a lesbian, I tire of the anti-lesbian, or as aptly described in the TOS, lesbian-phobic rhetoric that I often see here. Although, with the inclusion of lesbian-phobia in the TOS, I view the admin as top notch in recognizing the problem for what it is- bigotry about a sexual minority. Kudos to the admin! Yes, I have experienced butch-phobia and seen transphobia as well as femme-phobia from separatist lesbians. However, they do not represent the all lesbians and certainly not the majority.

In some ways, I feel like the question posed to (only) female-identified butches about our views on butch being used by some of the gender identifications here that claim masculine, male, or man is a form of baiting. We don't need any more division among us. And I do use us as inclusive. As I stated, there are many fully transitioned transmen that have a deep and long history of butch identity and I just don't see how that can be wiped-out simply due to transitioning. Butch is part of the narrative we all have experience with as femme (considering what many femmes get blasted with if they are involved with a TG person).

Sometimes, I honestly do not understand why there is so much division among us on websites like this. This is just not my real-time experience.

I will welcome the day when butch is not discussed in terms of Trans or visa versa and female is not compared to male in the same ways it has been for centuries. We (all of us) have the opportunity to transcend patriarchal bigotry right in front of us. I hope we seize this opportunity and write a very different history along with gender presentations and interaction. Historically, I see no better time to banish gender myths and sexism. But, we have to take the lead and get un-stuck.

Personally, I accept anyone's claim of butch.

[BullDog]

AtLast, I didn't find the question being posed to be baiting at all, especially taking into consideration who asked it. The reason I answered privately is because it's very obvious that my participation is not welcomed by some on this thread.

I responded to Greyson's post yesterday only because I didn't want there to be an impression that Soon's question was being ignored and my experience is very much indeed different than his.

I do agree with you that my experience of butch in the real world is very different than what I find online.

Now back to your male comparisons without any further intrusions from me.

[Corkey]

Ok so back on track guys, any thing to add?

[SuperFemme]

Ive never seen Male Id butch before this website. I think i get the concept, ive read short explanations on a lot of other posts but I was wondering if someone would mind breaking down the difference between a Male ID Butch person and a FtM trans person?

Thanks
Lee

i don't know if you will be able to get a group think on the break down you are asking for.

we are at a unique place in history right now, where the gender spectrum becoming visible to the world at large is vastly greater than the language available to describe it. the only thing consistent in this is change.

i really truly think that the best way to sift through it all is to rely on an individuals self identity rather than trying to cram people into the same old tired two available boxes.

[Corkey]

i don't know if you will be able to get a group think on the break down you are asking for.

we are at a unique place in history right now, where the gender spectrum becoming visible to the world at large is vastly greater than the language available to describe it. the only thing consistent in this is change.

i really truly think that the best way to sift through it all is to rely on an individuals self identity rather than trying to cram people into the same old tired two available boxes.

I think you are right SF, people weren't made to be placed in boxes, there are far to few, and not all are the same.

[Cowboi]

I would like to offer an apology to anyone that was offended by the medical terms I posted this morning. It was not my intent to mean anything rude or hateful.

I of all people do not have issues with how one id's. I do feel like we all at some point and time we have all traveled some of the same roads during our journeys.

Earlier in the day I had a conversation about the same words. Most people use the wrong term anyway.
The defenitions were straight from one of my medical books from school.


Again my apologies.

[Corkey]

I would like to offer an apology to anyone that was offended by the medical terms I posted this morning. It was not my intent to mean anything rude or hateful.

I of all people do not have issues with how one id's. I do feel like we all at some point and time we have all traveled some of the same roads during our journeys.

Earlier in the day I had a conversation about the same words. Most people use the wrong term anyway.
The definitions were straight from one of my medical books from school.


Again my apologies.

I know you weren't trying to being offensive, the Intersexed folks who I know who have spoken out do not use those medical definitions to describe themselves, for they have said they are not deformed or an abnormality. We have to remember there are people behind these definitions and I will go with what they prefer to be called, Intersexed. Which again isn't the topic of this thread, but thank you for the apology.

[AtLast]

AtLast, I didn't find the question being posed to be baiting at all, especially taking into consideration who asked it. The reason I answered privately is because it's very obvious that my participation is not welcomed by some on this thread.

I responded to Greyson's post yesterday only because I didn't want there to be an impression that Soon's question was being ignored and my experience is very much indeed different than his.

I do agree with you that my experience of butch in the real world is very different than what I find online.

Now back to your male comparisons without any further intrusions from me.

Bully, I was just pointing out a personal observation. I own personal sensitivies just simply as a human being. I know grey well and no, my comment was not any kind of swipe at him. In fact, he and many transmasculine butches get shit for using butch while engaging in what is considered transitioning to men kinds of procedures and treatments. Maybe my wording was not as clear as posible, but it wasn't a swipe, but I know baiting does happen in online threads on every website I have become a member of. To every identification that any person could have. Really counter-productive. I want more conversation that helps us build community and is supportive to all.

[Soon]

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was or may be baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

[AtLast]

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

My post was in response to Greyson, actually. And I explained it and also said I could have used other terms. I received a positive rep from him regarding the post. I also know him well enough in real-time to know that if he had a problem with anything, he would let me know, with honor, integrity and dignity. We would have a work thru things via goodwill.

The question grey posed was directed at butches like me! Feel free to PM me with anything. This is just going to spin off into exactly the kind of nonsense that hurts all of us. I don't want to have anything to do with that. I'm tired of the hurt these discussions can cause simply due to jumping to conclusions as opposed to asking for clarification.

I'm confused about something. If you do not want post from non-trans persons in this zone, why have questions posed to and about us? Since other female-identified butches are posting here, I thought I was invited to post as a member of this site and community as the identification I hold.

I will not continue to read the thread, or post in it.

[Greyson]

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was or may be baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrisy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

[Soon]

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrasy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

Wow--thanks so much, Greyson!

[Greyson]

Wow--thanks so much, Greyson!




Of course the English Teacher would repost my original post before I could correct spelling errors. :blink:

[SuperFemme]

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrisy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

i second this.

[Corkey]

i second this.

third... cause we, my wife and her husband, have spoken before, I know her heart is in the right place.

[SuperFemme]

HSIN for president. :hangloose:

[Joe Mario]

Regarding the highlighted part of your post:
Have been reflecting much on my transition and gaining this 'male priviledge' after transitioning. In my case, the 'priviledge' has felt superficial at best. My ID for the previous 25 years before I transitioned 2 years ago was some flavor of Butch. First softbutch, then Butch, then TG Butch, which I claim today. In straight culture, I am 'treated as' a man, which is fine with me- like before. But I still need to 'edit' what I do and say-like before, but just in different ways.
I have feminist values and history but am dealing with straight males who want to bond (priviledge?), but who are not from my culture. I dont know their culture either and have no real interest in it. So, I wouldn't appreciate the red carpet leading to the mens club being rolled out for me by My Community. :| No, Thanks!

I am less visible or invisible in the queer community and (could) face misinterpretation and rejection for transitioning, which many Butches don't have to deal with.

I'd say this 'priveledge' is a trade-off. Perhaps the ones who complain about Butches Transitioning (not you, ALH; but generally speaking) need to examine why they are complaining to begin with. Begrudging us our 'ounce' of (so-called) priviledge and not looking at the drawbacks we face is unfair.


PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life...;) )

Although I prefer this site to the old one, I had a difficult time leaving it when I did (don't have time to post in both) because finally, there were more intersexed people speaking up and offering a lot of good information. I get a lot of my information and suggestions for reading from my intersexed cousin, but, my hope is that this gender forms a much stronger presence here- not the same tenets apply to them that do for the TG.

I did post earlier (as a gender-blended female person, the identification I have found to be the most accurate for myself in the literature) about seeing why a transman would continue to identify as butch due to their history, which goes far deeper than an identification or label. It seems to fit for some people. I do view folks that take T, have gender reassignment surgeries and refer to them selves as men or male as transgendered and as men. Mainly, this is because of the bio-physiological and mental status scientific definitions put forth today in gender theory.

However, as has always been the case, I don't believe that everyone is going to fit neatly into specific gender identifications. Hell that is the reason gender-blended female person was introduced for people like me! There is just too much fluidity to gender as I see it for the continuation of rigid definitions.

Now, I do have a problem with one gaining male privilege, abusing it as cisgendered men have for centuries and wanting to claim butch in any female sense. That is just the same old patriarchal power dynamic that men have enjoyed forever. There does come a point in transitioning in which one will be viewed exclusively as male and this is where feminist thought (which is not exclusively the purview of women) needs some self-exploration

Sometimes, a duck really is a duck and it doesn't matter if that duck started out as a pigeon. If it quacks, it's a duckI do feel that more discussions about the entire spectrum of gender as we know it today and especially intergendered manifestations (or female-ifestations), would give the entire site a much more well rounded learning curve on gender in its entirety. We seem to really focus on the TG in this all here as it relates to male, or men or masculinity. My personal sphere is about my comfort with female masculinity because that for me has not always been a congenial space and I am not transgendered, nor do I want to pass. I want to be recognized as the blending of gender that I am and just have that be OK!

The struggle for acceptance as we are with our female presentation (as female-identified butches for want of a better term) of what is defined as masculine is far from over. So is our need to have what is woman in us being recognized. We are just not that kind of woman or female! This is why, for me, the building of productive coalitions among the various genders that we all represent is critical in gaining equal rights and protections. It seems like we would be getting a lot further if we all could extract that butch history/experience from our souls and use it in conversations like this. We might find many more avenues to build alliances and coalitions. I know many TG men that speak from this space.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Regarding the highlighted part of your post:
Have been reflecting much on my transition and gaining this 'male priviledge' after transitioning. In my case, the 'priviledge' has felt superficial at best. My ID for the previous 25 years before I transitioned 2 years ago was some flavor of Butch. First softbutch, then Butch, then TG Butch, which I claim today. In straight culture, I am 'treated as' a man, which is fine with me- like before. But I still need to 'edit' what I do and say-like before, but just in different ways.
I have feminist values and history but am dealing with straight males who want to bond (priviledge?), but who are not from my culture. I dont know their culture either and have no real interest in it. So, I wouldn't appreciate the red carpet leading to the mens club being rolled out for me by My Community. :| No, Thanks!

I am less visible or invisible in the queer community and (could) face misinterpretation and rejection for transitioning, which many Butches don't have to deal with.

I'd say this 'priveledge' is a trade-off. Perhaps the ones who complain about Butches Transitioning (not you, ALH; but generally speaking) need to examine why they are complaining to begin with. Begrudging us our 'ounce' of (so-called) priviledge and not looking at the drawbacks we face is unfair.


PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life...;) )


So you are in denial of your *male privilege*??

I wanna ask about those who complain about butches transitioning too, but I need to understand the first question first.

Thanks in advance

[Liam]

For the record:
I never once, thought that this thread was about conflict between male identified butches and ftms. I thought it was about defining and comparing the two terms.

[Toughy]

For the record:
I never once, thought that this thread was about conflict between male identified butches and ftms. I thought it was about defining and comparing the two terms.

The title could have been 'and' instead of 'vs' and better accomplished that goal.

[Corkey]

The title could have been 'and' instead of 'vs' and better accomplished that goal.


Yes, it could have however the person who started the thread is a newbie, so that I think has to be taken into consideration. They probably don't have our vocabulary if they are asking these questions in the first place.

[Toughy]

Yes, it could have however the person who started the thread is a newbie, so that I think has to be taken into consideration. They probably don't have our vocabulary if they are asking these questions in the first place.

Absolutely. The learning curve can be difficult. I only brought that point up as a learning kind of thing. It has been currently talked about in other threads. The timing seemed appropriate and I hope I did it in a way that reminds all of us of language and the willingness to learn.

I did not mean to imply this thread had de-volved into a negative space.

[EnderD_503]

The term "versus" has more than one usage, as its definition should suggest. While it is often used to denote conflict or opposition, that definition does not encompass its entire meaning. It is also a term frequently used to compare one thing to another, not for the sake of opposition, but for the sake of comparison. It is not, by definition, a word that implies conflict.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if folks just enjoy being polemic for the sake of it. In the case of this thread, in my view it should have been blatantly obvious from the start that it was not meant to mean male id'd butch in conflict with FTM, but the characteristics of male id'd butch compared with FTM. I think that was made pretty obvious in the OP. Bringing the issue of the term's misuse in another thread into this one simply because the same term is used, does not mean the same issue of misuse occurred here. That's taking the term entirely out of its context. According to this thread's context, the term was applied correctly.

I think the title of this thread is perfectly fitting for what the OP was trying to find out.

[Corkey]

The term "versus" has more than one usage, as its definition should suggest. While it is often used to denote conflict or opposition, that definition does not encompass its entire meaning. It is also a term frequently used to compare one thing to another, not for the sake of opposition, but for the sake of comparison. It is not, by definition, a word that implies conflict.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if folks just enjoy being polemic for the sake of it. In the case of this thread, in my view it should have been blatantly obvious from the start that it was not meant to mean male id'd butch in conflict with FTM, but the characteristics of male id'd butch compared with FTM. I think that was made pretty obvious in the OP. Bringing the issue of the term's misuse in another thread into this one simply because the same term is used, does not mean the same issue of misuse occurred here. That's taking the term entirely out of its context. According to this thread's context, the term was applied correctly.

I think the title of this thread is perfectly fitting for what the OP was trying to find out.

I agree in the usage in the context of this thread, not the other however.

[Soon]

I agree with Ender.

In this thread is clear that the OP is trying to seek out people's definitions regarding these two terms and not attempting to pit one identity against another.

[Joe Mario]

TLS: To repeat myself; "It feels superficial at best"

So you are in denial of your *male privilege*??

I wanna ask about those who complain about butches transitioning too, but I need to understand the first question first.

Thanks in advance

[The_Lady_Snow]

TLS: To repeat myself; "It feels superficial at best"



You do realize men have privilege right?

[Dude]

PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life...;) )

actually in a duck's life , it's all about the plumage and presentation. I live with one. ( ">

[EnderD_503]

You do realize men have privilege right?

Talking about male privilege in relation to transguys/male ids is a little more complicated. Especially considering all the shit transguys go through, even when living full-time having an employer, landlord or random guy in the washroom somehow find out your trans can mean losing your job or your home with no legal back up, or being threatened for who you are. On top of that the potential reactions just going about your daily business, losing family, friends and anyone you care about, again for simply being who you are.

There is a reason why attempted suicides among trans people is approximately 70%, why suicide rates themselves are so much higher than in any other portion of the population, why approximately half of the trans population lives below the poverty line, why trans people are 3 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other areas of the population. How many trans people have been raped, beaten and killed because someone found out they were trans? How many trans people have been denied medical care outright because they are trans? Not to mention potentially never feeling at peace with yourself because of the body you were born into. Personally, this body does not feel like a privilege to me. Everytime people bring up male privilege in conjunction with transguys/male ids it seriously feels like an undermining of everything each and every guy that has to live his life as a guy born in the wrong body (whether pre-HRT/post-HRT, pre-op/post-op) has to go through. I'm not sure if you realise how disrespectful that can feel coming from a community that should be more aware of each other's struggles.

[The_Lady_Snow]

You're right I know nothing my bad for partaking in the conversation my apologies.

[Mister Bent]

Talking about male privilege in relation to transguys/male ids is a little more complicated. Especially considering all the shit transguys go through, even when living full-time having an employer, landlord or random guy in the washroom somehow find out your trans can mean losing your job or your home with no legal back up, or being threatened for who you are. On top of that the potential reactions just going about your daily business, losing family, friends and anyone you care about, again for simply being who you are.

There is a reason why attempted suicides among trans people is approximately 70%, why suicide rates themselves are so much higher than in any other portion of the population, why approximately half of the trans population lives below the poverty line, why trans people are 3 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other areas of the population. How many trans people have been raped, beaten and killed because someone found out they were trans? How many trans people have been denied medical care outright because they are trans? Not to mention potentially never feeling at peace with yourself because of the body you were born into. Personally, this body does not feel like a privilege to me. Everytime people bring up male privilege in conjunction with transguys/male ids it seriously feels like an undermining of everything each and every guy that has to live his life as a guy born in the wrong body (whether pre-HRT/post-HRT, pre-op/post-op) has to go through. I'm not sure if you realise how disrespectful that can feel coming from a community that should be more aware of each other's struggles.


Perhaps it could have been stated with more clarity, but I think this is exactly to what "superficial" speaks. Quite literally, scratch beneath the surface and this artificial, or assumed, privilege is gone.

It can't be denied that transmen can walk into situations and assume a sort of cloak of privilege. If they don't reveal their history, and are never "discovered," they can walk through the world with a form of privilege not possessed by women and those of us who don't always "pass" (I really hate that term, for the record). But should their history become known, there is often an undeniable shit-storm to face.

I'm not certain we can legitimately speak in terms of trade-offs, however. "Here, have a little male privilege in exchange for your trials." While transmen "enjoy" privilege in ways others don't, I agree it's not something for which our "community" should constantly berate them (assuming individuals with a certain degree of self-awareness and understanding of their privilege); each time it's brought up it feels a little "undermining" to me, too. Male privilege is a fact, one that stands alone outside all the other aspects of being trans that hardly feel like "privilege." When speaking of male privilege we are speaking of one very particular social construct, which becomes decidedly more complicated when applied to transmen/male IDs. Choosing to identify male is hardly a guarantee one will experience male privilege, and it is when this accusation is levied, that I most bristle.


ETA:
You're right I know nothing my bad for partaking in the conversation my apologies.


Snow, you made a statement and Ender was countering you, as happens in dialogue. Nowhere did I see any statements accusing you of "knowing nothing." These are sensitive topics with strong emotional weight for both "sides" and your comment here feels dismissive of that. I, for one, was looking forward to your response. Not this.

[Martina]

My point is not how the man feels about his privilege, but his effect on others. If he is not aware of privilege, he can do harm. A man frequently interrupting a woman can result in silencing her and other women. It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not.

[EnderD_503]

My point is not how the man feels about his privilege, but his effect on others. If he is not aware of privilege, he can do harm. A man frequently interrupting a woman can result in silencing her and other women. It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not.

Again, the issue of transmen/male ids is not so simple, partially because of the issues I raised above and I think it is important to acknowledge this. Additionally, not all transmen are even able to transition or successfully pass as male in greater society, so it seems these claims of privilege are ignoring them as men entirely.

Since we are on the subject of silencing individuals, it should be realised how harmful it can be toward transmen to constantly throw male privilege at them in such a manner that it eventually guilts them or frustrates them into silence. It seems that their male privilege (should all of them possess it or not) is raised as a weapon against them in order to silence them whenever they don't agree with the perspective of another, and far more frequently than the privileges the rest of the LGB community possesses over the trans community (not only within our own community, but in greater society).

But an argument over who has more privilege than the other is often useless and can either cause the silencing of one side or the other, or ongoing animosity between both sides. Both happen more frequently than people are willing to admit. I don't think either case is very productive when it comes to gaining rights within society at large, and, in fact, is rather counterproductive.

[Martina]

Well if someone is not passing, yes, that is different. If they are, then they assume a position in society that gives them some power. i expect them to use it wisely.

i do not want to neglect anyone's concerns, but i am not going to be distracted from the fact that male privilege wielded without regard can harm women.

[SelfMadeMan]

Well if someone is not passing, yes, that is different. If they are, then they assume a position in society that gives them some power. i expect them to use it wisely.

i do not want to neglect anyone's concerns, but i am not going to be distracted from the fact that male privilege wielded without regard can harm women.

I agree 100%, I feel that because I have male privilege, I have a very serious responsibility to use my voice, and my actions to fight mysogyny and other crimes against women and children. And to take it a step further, because I have hetero male privilege in society, I have a responsibility to use my voice to fight homophobia, transphobia, etc. So any time I am in a group of male peers, and I hear hate speech, or mysogynistic statements, etc, I HAVE to speak up and let them know it's not acceptable. I think a lot of guys feel like this is somehow outing themselves, but it doesn't have to at all. I am stealth here in our community, but I speak out all the time about women's rights, GLBT issues, etc.

I also agree about guys who aren't passing as well as they want to, and don't feel comfortable speaking out. That's different. But for those who do blend right in, denying that male privilege comes with the territory is just beyond my comprehension.

[EnderD_503]

Well if someone is not passing, yes, that is different. If they are, then they assume a position in society that gives them some power. i expect them to use it wisely.

i do not want to neglect anyone's concerns, but i am not going to be distracted from the fact that male privilege wielded without regard can harm women.

And non-tg privilege wielded without regard can harm trans people. So what is the point of this debate, and why was the subject even brought up? I don't see anyone in this thread denying that male privilege exists or that it is harmful to women. However, I do have a problem with how some in this thread are applying that privilege to transmen. A cisgender, heterosexual (biological) male does not risk losing everything because of the way he was born. This "position" and "power" in society is nowhere near being applicable to all transmen given the prevalence of poverty and abuse against trans people as a whole. On top of that, this "position" and "power" is trivial when there is little legal protection to back it up, which demonstrates the true position of many transmen and transwomen in society. So yes, that privilege may exist to a degree for transguys, but it comes with a dangerous price, and I'm not sure that privilege is any greater than that which non-trans people possess.

I also question why this was even brought up to begin with in this thread, and I have a suspicion it was for the precise same reason as I mentioned previously; as a way of shaming, guilting or frustrating transguys. Why is it that in so many trans/male id threads someone or other sees fit to shove this in our faces as though we're expected to turn to self-flagellation, atoning for a great sin? It's tiresome.

I think many transguys spend enough time going through bouts of self-hatred, guilt or shame because of who they are as it is without adding more fuel to the fire.

Again, this post is not denying male privilege or its effects, it is asking people to understand that the circumstances of many transmen is unique from that of a cisgender heterosexual (biological) male and that that privilege cannot be applied in the same equal fashion to both.

[Melissa]

And non-tg privilege wielded without regard can harm trans people. So what is the point of this debate, and why was the subject even brought up? I don't see anyone in this thread denying that male privilege exists or that it is harmful to women. However, I do have a problem with how some in this thread are applying that privilege to transmen. A cisgender, heterosexual (biological) male does not risk losing everything because of the way he was born. This "position" and "power" in society is nowhere near being applicable to all transmen given the prevalence of poverty and abuse against trans people as a whole. On top of that, this "position" and "power" is trivial when there is little legal protection to back it up, which demonstrates the true position of many transmen and transwomen in society. So yes, that privilege may exist to a degree for transguys, but it comes with a dangerous price, and I'm not sure that privilege is any greater than that which non-trans people possess.

I also question why this was even brought up to begin with in this thread, and I have a suspicion it was for the precise same reason as I mentioned previously; as a way of shaming, guilting or frustrating transguys. Why is it that in so many trans/male id threads someone or other sees fit to shove this in our faces as though we're expected to turn to self-flagellation, atoning for a great sin? It's tiresome.

I think many transguys spend enough time going through bouts of self-hatred, guilt or shame because of who they are as it is without adding more fuel to the fire.

Again, this post is not denying male privilege or its effects, it is asking people to understand that the circumstances of many transmen is unique from that of a cisgender heterosexual (biological) male and that that privilege cannot be applied in the same equal fashion to both.



I also think that privilege is highly dependent on context and in relation to things like age, race, size, education, and looks. A white male has more privilege than a black male in certain contexts. A short, overweight, unattractive and uneducated white male will have less access to certain privileges than a young, tall, attractive highly educated white woman. In this case privilege is not based on sex but on education and looks. And we do privilege certain types of people based on how they look.

So I would rather discuss privileges than privilege and recognize that privilege(s) vary and depend on many issues not just male vs female, masculine vs feminine.

I think that making a blanket statement that all males (whether bio male or trans male) by default of being male have automatic privilege is shortsighted and fails to take into account context along with issues of race, age, ability, education level among other things. This issue is very nuanced and we do it a disservice by looking at it from a single or simplified perspective.

Thank you Ender for your insightful comments.

Melissa

[Jaques]

[QUOTE=Melissa;287920]I also think that privilege is highly dependent on context and in relation to things like age, race, size, education, and looks. A white male has more privilege than a black male in certain contexts......

The U.S.A. has a black male as president - there are always the exceptions.....


A short, overweight, unattractive and uneducated white male will have less access to certain privileges than a young, tall, attractive highly educated white woman. In this case privilege is not based on sex but on education and looks. And we do privilege certain types of people based on how they look.

......well i think you just described Elton John, short, overweight, unattractive and white and hes very privileged indeed - lol!

[Tcountry]

There are exceptions to every rule *sweet smile*

I have read most of this thread...I will admidt I skipped some pages of the arguing...but all in all most of it. I hesitated in posting, but decided what the heck anyway...so here goes:

As a butch...and as someone who does not exactly care what you(as in the general population) call me because it is more based on what pronoun you (still g.p.)are comfy with and not as how I see myself...I can say one thing about male ID butch for My Own Self, and that is it just feels right.
I really like when a woman/femme/girl(pick ur term there) is flirting with me and calls me "mister" I don't know why, but it really gets to me in a great way. :)
More often than not my actions and interests (job included) are typically mainstream socially identitified as "male/boy" things...so yes my ID is geared more toward the things that interest me.

I will not speak from any other perspective because I havent been there...but I will agree with the statements earlier in the thread...you ask 50 people and you will get 50 answers. However I have enjoyed reading this thread (minus the tension) and am daily learning about this awesome community.

Thanks for reading,
T

[Martina]

i am not talking about the circumstances of a man's life or making generalizations about how much he may get out of his privilege.

i may not KNOW that i am interacting with a transman. i do know i am interacting with a man. And if he is careless about the way he handles his privilege, he will do harm. i do not like to hear anyone denying that responsibility. It's not all about the transmen's personal experience or how educated a cis-gender person should be ideally.

The fact is that in the office or sitting in a classroom, a man interacting with a woman has a responsibility to be aware of male privilege and how that can disempower her.

[Jaques]

I have witnessed women disempowering men and reducing them to tears....................its quite common

[Toughy]

I have witnessed women disempowering men and reducing them to tears....................its quite common



*grabbing a chair*

popcorn anyone?

[asphaltcowboi]

just adding my thoughts, im male id butch.. my bigest fear is being discovered in public i have a responsiablity to my self and to the public not to let that happen. i do not feel its a privlage to use the mens room.. it is usually filthy an stinky its chancy to be discovered there,alot of times the only alternative is the parking lot. if i am discovered in public to be female born it causes a ruckus (if not a fist fight) to the point i would have to excuse myself from a date/dinner/dance/conversation or in any situation i may be in just being myself. i think any privlage has been worked hard for and would never intentionaly be abused. t/g male id butchs usually walk softly as not to disturbe the general public.. at least for me its like that. i do not feel in any way that any privlage is larger then what it takes to live as i feel i was born to live ftm/tg/male id
just my own feeling.:vigil:

[EnderD_503]

i am not talking about the circumstances of a man's life or making generalizations about how much he may get out of his privilege.

i may not KNOW that i am interacting with a transman. i do know i am interacting with a man. And if he is careless about the way he handles his privilege, he will do harm. i do not like to hear anyone denying that responsibility. It's not all about the transmen's personal experience or how educated a cis-gender person should be ideally.

The fact is that in the office or sitting in a classroom, a man interacting with a woman has a responsibility to be aware of male privilege and how that can disempower her.

Ok, well I wasn't going to respond because I have this feeling of going in circles, and figured we might as well stop before one of us drops down dizzy. But hey, who doesn't like a good headrush?

I highlighted in my last post why I was taking issue with yours and other posts and the way you were using male privilege in conjunction with transmen or non-biological (though I'm finding myself even taking issue with this term of description) male identities. But upon further consideration what truly does not sit well with me is both the absolutism of your words (and as far as I'm concerned, no situation can be absolute, and it takes more effort to keep that absolutist view in place than realise that most colours are the result of the mixtures of mixtures, if that makes sense), in addition to your statement that the presence of privilege in your hypothetical setting (interesting that you should call my examples of why many transmen may not have what is popularly called male privilege generalised when your hypothetical transman in his hypothetical office/classroom with his hypothetical responsibility talking to a hypothetical woman is...well...the definition of generalised) is not affected at all by the circumstances of a transman's life.

In fact, I'm not sure that you can entirely or absolutely divorce the experiences of a transman as a transman from a hypothetical situation such as you have described. First of all, let's think a little bit about the freedoms and therefore privileges that "passing" may or may not provide. What is "passing?" I mean that question to involve both its definition and its implications on the life of the one doing the "passing." Unfortunately, the Oxford dictionary does not reflect on the term passing as it is applied race or sex, but settles for a brief mention of passing as "of a resemblence or similarity." So when we're talking about "passing" are we as "female to male" identities agreeing with popular belief that we are actually imperfect copies of men that require hiding those imperfections in order to maintain our well-being? That we are not "real men" but merely trying to trick others into seeing us as men?

And if this is, truly what we are doing then why do we do it? To be seen as male by mainstream society. What does being seen as male mean? For many it means that society does not identify us as female, but as our mind's sex. That, then, means that society believes that men born with XX chromosomes and an anatomy defined as "female" are not male, cannot be seriously considered male, and so we tell ourselves and keep the misconceptions alive. Hence why I would argue that passing can be (note, I do not state "always is") an oppressive tool, and just because a transman passes does not mean that he cannot be disempowered by another man, woman or any other identity; does not mean he cannot be silenced, and the secret disempowerment during a seemingly innocent hypothetical conversation can be very harmful, and can, in fact, create a problem out of throwing "male privilege" at him. Again, my argument is not that it exists, but that this so-called responsibility (which nothing can truly be if one simply places that on another person without their consent) cannot exist on its own and only on the side of the transman (and certainly not without taking into consideration his experiences as a transman).

If we are going to bring the issue of transmen, passing and what male privilege exists for transmen, then we cannot allow that discussion to be a one-sided flogging block. The hypothetical woman, in this hypothetical discussion with this hypothetical transman also has a responsibility to be aware of her cisgender privilege; the privilege she possesses as a non-transgender person, or, if she is a hypothetical heterosexual "biological" women, of her privilege beyond the queer spectrum. She should not be excused of her unawareness because of the fact that she does not know she is interacting with a transman. If the world is to drop its rigid gender laws, then it must remain constantly aware of what one says, because even the most "innocent" comments can be a privilege if you've never been at the pointy end[s] of the stick.

Again, just because someone passes, just because the other party doesn't know a transman was born female, does not mean that other party is powerless to hurt that transman. It just means that a transman may very well remain silent in order to avoid making his humiliation or offense public for fear that society will view him as a lesser man, or not a man at all; or perhaps it isn't not being seen as a man that frightens him most, but the consequences of that visibility. I'm thinking also of those of part African, part European heritage who have also used passing for survival or the attempt to gain and maintain some dignity in society. If an African American man who can pass as a white man is in the presence of a white woman who does not recognise his African American heritage, who does not remain aware of her own privilege, does that mean that that man is not humiliated, silenced or disempowered by a comment she makes thinking she is in the presence of a white man? How does his white male privilege compare to a white man who is not "passing?"

Like trans people, I feel that he, too, is wedged somewhere between oppression and privilege (both hanging a mighty big axe over his head). Again, the dynamic is not so black and white when you are dealing with a "passing" individual.

And this is a main part of my point. While the transman may arguably possess male privilege in this hypothetically hypothetical situation (yes, I think I may just have crossed the border to ridiculousland), the woman in the situation also possesses a privilege whether she is ignorant of it or aware of it.

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up. Especially when it comes to accusatory statements about a person supposedly denying their privilege without necessarily knowing the circumstances of their life or their struggles. And that is something I do not like to see or hear.

The source of both privileges is the rigidly heterosexual, gendered, classed etc. society we live in, and attacking one person over another screams ridding one's self of one's own responsibility and dumping it onto somebody else. This is not what I want, and feel we should be dealing with the source, not the symptoms. I don't mind talking about male privilege and how it relates to transmen, but if we're going to do that then we should also recognise how that privilege differs for transmen and the perhaps brutal and unpleasant reality of passing in so far as how it affects that privilege. We should also be discussing the very basic privileges someone who is not trans possesses over someone who is trans, in conjunction with the above discussion, because that privilege is something most people (I dare say both in and out of the LGBT community) are dreadfully unaware of.

[waxnrope]

I am enlightened by this discourse ... thank you Ender ...

[Martina]

There is nothing ridiculous about my hypothetical. How hypothetical is a man talking to a woman. I am sure I can walk out my door right now and see an instance of it.

What is ridiculous is the degree to which trans politics seems to want to go to deny that many trans people have male privilege.

i do not doubt that a cis-gender woman talking to a transman has cis-privilege or that she might hurt him accidentally. So you are saying because they both have privilege, that cancels something out and we shouldn't talk about it. Or that we shouldn't talk about it because transmen might feel shamed and they have enough on their plate? How will there be change then?

i am sure that a transman experienes his privilege differenty than a cis-gender man, but I won't experience his sexism differently if he enacts it. It will be the same. Nothing about his background or his struggles will make ME or other women immune from the effects of his behavior if he handles the privilege given to him without care. Even if he just accepts it as his right, he is doing harm.

i have no interest in surrendering my expectation that all men be aware of their privilege in a world as crushingly sexist is ours. i won't modify that expectation for any man. i don't think any of us should. It's not about the man or his background or his personal experiences. It's about the social world we live in.

i will never stop looking at male privilege just because there are other kinds of privilege out there. Is that what you are suggesting women do? That's how women find a way to live in the world, by seeing privilege for what it is and finding ways to navigate through it. That's how men learn to facilitate change and help empower women, through identifying privilege, by SEEING it first, and then finding ways to negate its effects.

[Thinker]

Martina, I would like to ask what it is that you would like to see said that is NOT being said.

And I swear to you I'm not being confrontational or "nasty" in my tone...not at all.

I haven't seen anyone here say that transmen do not experience male privilege (I admit to not reading every single post).

I have seen people admit to that AND ALSO say that there are many ways that transmen are at a disadvantage and sometimes in danger....that it is not as simple as saying, "Hey, I've transitioned......I'm a man......now my path will only ever be a smooth one."

It just seems to me that you don't want to hear the rest of that......that maybe you think that will water down the seriousness of the privilege bestowed upon transmen.

So I am asking.......seriously and respectfully........what is not being said that you think should be said?

Or is it that you think there are things being said that are wrong?

Because, again, I haven't seen anyone say a transman does not also receive male privilege when he walks through this world seen, perceived, and received as that man, that one over there, this one, etc...

[Martina]

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up.

i was responding to Ender's post, to this in part. It seems to say there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen. i don't agree.

[Jesse]

Funny how some threads start off with one topic and then spin out of control...most often, Trans threads.

[DomnNC]

Funny how some threads start off with one topic and then spin out of control...most often, Trans threads.


Isn't that the truth, I thought the topic was someone asking the difference between male ID'd butch and a transman, funny how it wound up about taking a dump on the transmen.

[Martina]

Same ole response everytime male privilege is mentioned too. i had sworn offa these threads. i recall why.

[Linus]

Funny how some threads start off with one topic and then spin out of control...most often, Trans threads.

I don't know if it's spinning out of control as much as going on tangents as part of people's thoughts when they read something posted and it a triggers a random thought.

If we kept threads in the very narrow definition of the topic, I think that we wouldn't see too much growth or discussion in relation to the topic or side-topics. I think when we dismiss these discussions we dismiss our own opportunity to learn and grow. To be honest, I get Martina's point. To be honest that whole thread feels like a lot people are saying stuff and everyone is going "Lalalalalalala" when replying.

Privilege is something that some transmen claim they never have and that is just as wrong as saying that we get the exact same privilege as biomen. I think, however, it's important that transmen recognize that privilege. And then figure out how they are going to address it in their day-to-day lives. Because unless they go out and tell every person that they meet that they are trans, they will be inferred that privilege (and moreso if they are white, tall, handsome, etc.). Unlike transwomen, we blend far too well.

And I think that's what Martina's trying to point out (Martina, if I'm wrong please let me know).

That said, I will say that I believe that the privilege in question is transitory (although that may depend on circumstance or cultural area). For example, my recent activities with my chiropractor where I had to out myself for health reasons and ensure he had no issue with me (I also had to ask about the possible health impact of wearing a medium-compression binder). No Bioman has to worry about that. He just goes in, gets treated and leaves.

Now, if we are to get back to the original topic of the thread (what is the difference between a male-ID'd butch and an FTM), I think that it comes down to whether there is a sense of gender dysphoria or if there is a sense of belonging to one's body regardless of gender labels. But that's my view of it.

[Jesse]

Let me be clear here. I (Me all by myself) do not feel dumped on. However, it does sometimes feel that whenever transmen are the topic or even part of the topic as in this case, the thread gets changed into one of privilege and how much of it we transguys do or do not get.

If nothing else it is just plain rude to the OP. For me as a transman it is just tiresome.

Isn't that the truth, I thought the topic was someone asking the difference between male ID'd butch and a transman, funny how it wound up about taking a dump on the transmen.

[Jesse]

I agree Linus, and there are always going to be some that believe they do not have privilege, just as there are always going to be some whites who think they do not have privilege because they are white.

I also think it is important to not forget that many of us have been verbally bashed for transitioning and accused of doing it just to get this privilege. I am one of these people, so yes, it can be a trigger if one has not done some work around it and realized what privilege we do get and without our choosing it specifically.

I don't know if it's spinning out of control as much as going on tangents as part of people's thoughts when they read something posted and it a triggers a random thought.

If we kept threads in the very narrow definition of the topic, I think that we wouldn't see too much growth or discussion in relation to the topic or side-topics. I think when we dismiss these discussions we dismiss our own opportunity to learn and grow. To be honest, I get Martina's point. To be honest that whole thread feels like a lot people are saying stuff and everyone is going "Lalalalalalala" when replying.

Privilege is something that some transmen claim they never have and that is just as wrong as saying that we get the exact same privilege as biomen. I think, however, it's important that transmen recognize that privilege. And then figure out how they are going to address it in their day-to-day lives. Because unless they go out and tell every person that they meet that they are trans, they will be inferred that privilege (and moreso if they are white, tall, handsome, etc.). Unlike transwomen, we blend far too well.

And I think that's what Martina's trying to point out (Martina, if I'm wrong please let me know).

That said, I will say that I believe that the privilege in question is transitory (although that may depend on circumstance or cultural area). For example, my recent activities with my chiropractor where I had to out myself for health reasons and ensure he had no issue with me (I also had to ask about the possible health impact of wearing a medium-compression binder). No Bioman has to worry about that. He just goes in, gets treated and leaves.

Now, if we are to get back to the original topic of the thread (what is the difference between a male-ID'd butch and an FTM), I think that it comes down to whether there is a sense of gender dysphoria or if there is a sense of belonging to one's body regardless of gender labels. But that's my view of it.

[Corkey]

As far as Male ID'd getting some sort of privilege, I just don't experience that in my every day life. Sometimes I pass, but that is generally when someone isn't paying attention, but more often than not I don't. There isn't much privilege when one still has to use a restroom they aren't comfortable using, because if one used the mens their personage is in peril. There isn't much privilege when one gets ladled when in the company of others who are feminine, and there certainly isn't any privilege when it comes to not being seen as the male we are whilst having the bodies we do.

When I do pass I realize it and accept the responsibility that has been bestowed upon me, by being honest to the person I am with, who is Femme that I recognize it and will correct any affront done to her. This happens so infrequently that I still contend that *I* me myself do not suffer the privilege of man.

Do others get male privilege, yes, and some no. It isn't so pat that it can be applied to Male ID'd individuals or many Transmen. Men get it, men give it, but it is not so prevalent in my life as to apply to me.

[Thinker]

I've never denied the automatic "privilege" that a man receives once he goes out into the world, and I'm not going to do that now.

And I'm also not going to turn a deaf ear to those (trans)men who, as a result of transitioning, have lost their jobs, health benefits, families, loved ones, and/or homes. Those guys don't feel like they got much in the privilege department as a result of transitioning, and I can get where they're coming from.

That doesn't mean they get to act like asses and work to keep women down or any such nonsense, and I feel quite certain we are ALL on the same page there. But I do think we should ALL hear that those things are as much a reality and a result of the transition as the privilege is.

There are folks right here in this community who will say, "Tough shit. You wanted to transition; take the bad with the good." And you all know good and well that is a fact. Some people in b/f land have all but SAID those EXACT same words.

My gawd... Not one person here has said, "Transmen do NOT receive male privilege." People are trying to say it isn't necessarily automatic and isn't always easy and doesn't always feel like it............and that it is more complex than that!! Why can't it be grey? Why does it have to be so fucking black or white?

It doesn't feel good to have your struggle reduced to something that takes three seconds to say. If someone here goes through this world as a man and never encounters anyone who knows of his trans history and you hear him say he does not receive male privilege, I would really love to be a part of that conversation. Seriously. Because, yeah, there's something amiss there.

But until then, I think we should ALL honor each individual's struggle and hear them and question with compassion and respect. And I feel that way about everyone.....regardless of their identity, socio-economic status, race, position, etc... A little kindness goes a long way.

[Thinker]

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up.

i was responding to Ender's post, to this in part. It seems to say there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen. i don't agree.

I wanted to acknowledge this since it seems it was in response to a question I asked you; I appreciate the reply.

Personally, I don't see how you got "there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen" from what he wrote. I admit to not always getting things the first time around, but I just think there is so much more to what he said.

Respectfully,
Thinker

[DomnNC]

Awesome post Thinker. I totally get what you're saying, I read somewhere the other night and dang I wish I could put my finger on it right now, but it said that over 50% of the transmen in the US live far under the poverty level cuz as you said they lost their jobs, homes, family, etcetcetc when they transition. So now they are also left without healthcare as well if the state won't cover them. It was also said that the transmen group are one of the highest discriminated against groups in the US right now. Now that's privilege.

I can pass quite easily when I choose to do so. I had a very stressful high up job in a big manufacturing facility with 6 remote branches. I was the MIS Director for the whole shabang. I had to cost justify every little penny I wanted to spend. I was questioned endlessly as to why I wanted to spend the money. They even called other companies to come in and verify what I said. When I had my last back surgery they replaced me within a week with a "real" man with a cock dangling between his legs that said he had been with IBM for 20+ years and oh my he could do it all. He wound up costing that company well over $200,000 for shit they didn't need or to replace stuff he tore up and was hiding it, didn't have to justify one thing to them, he could just do it. Short ending, before my medical leave was up they called wanting me to come back full time, that I could run the department as I saw fit, you know, male privilege, I told em to go screw themselves in not so nice terms. So see, we don't get privilege like some people think we do, it's not all encompassing male privilege. At least my experience has been quite the opposite. I'm not denying it's out there somewhere, it's just not been my experience all that much.

lol, it took em 3 years to figure out the man lied about every ability he had and to fire him.

[EnderD_503]

i was responding to Ender's post, to this in part. It seems to say there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen. i don't agree.

Martina, this is not what I was saying.

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook (this "gender rulebook" is what causes privilege/lack thereof for transfolks, for women, for the LGBT community, so to me we should spend less time pointing fingers, and more time dismantling the root of that problem. To me, when people come into trans/male id threads and simply post at transpeople saying "well don't deny the privilege you have!" to complete strangers of whom they probably know very little, it feels dismissive of the individual's situation and experiences.)? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up.

In fact, I think I even highlighted in my responses to you a couple of times that I was not denying the fact that that privilege existed, but that it was far more complex when it came to transmen. We spoke a bit about transmen who pass and so on, but the problem is is it's hard to talk about a generic or stereotypical transman.

I think it is significant that a disproportionate amount of trans people are discriminated against in housing and employment situations in comparison to the general population (in Canada, probably one of the only other groups that deals with this problem to a similar degree (by this I mean statistically, I'm not denying others don't feel this, too) are Aboriginal Canadians, though they are protected by law...unfortunately many don't care), that more transfolks are the victims of violent assault than the general population, that so many still get swallowed up by drugs and prostitution (sometimes I feel like that aspect is unspoken when it comes to transguys) because of these challenges made harder by the fact that they have only artificial legal protection. I think that is important when we discuss male privilege within the trans community.

The other thing is, a lot of transguys on the internet are perhaps no longer in these situations, are not yet in these situations, with some who will never be in these situations, though I'm sure there still are quite a few who are. They at least have the current luxury of computer and internet access, which likely means they are not living below the povert line. There are a lot of transguys out there who do and so they have no voice in these kinds of conversations, may not even have a voice in the real world depending on their situation. They should be taken into consideration. They are significant, and their male privilege is complicated.

Why is it so insignificant to you? Why is it so offensive for me to say that coming up with a hypothetical trans person in an office job is problematic when talking about transguys' male privilege as a generalisation? Denying the circumstances of the trans population just seems really dismissive to me.

I agree that we should be listening to what anyone has to say about male privilege and how it is harmful to women. But it often feels that people rarely stop to actively listen to transmen or male ids without wagging their finger and saying "well, you have male privilege!" or some comment about their transition, who they are, how they should act, how they have this responsibility or that one, where they should exist, where they shouldn't. It pretty much shuts down anything a transguy has to say that doesn't agree with one aspect or another, and if he stands up for himself he must be exercising his male privilege.

Also, why is it problematic when I suggest that speaking about privilege should be a two-way conversation that weighs both sides and not only male privilege transmen carry to varying degrees (in some ways I do agree with what Joe said about it being superficial), but also the privilege that stands against them?

The reason why I suggest this is because in many threads that are either about transguys/male ids or simply in which they participate (like Domn and Jesse were saying), people use male privilege as a way of silencing transmen or talking down to them. Yet in many situations the privilege is a two-way street, because the same people who frequently bring up male privilege in trans threads also have their own privilege and it seems like they don't think that's as important...why is it so absurd and offensive that we focus on ridding ourselves of both? Both are harmful. Both are silencing. Why can't we talk about both?

Btw, everything I've said here about transguys (and all transfolks) and the challenges they face is also applicable to other identities, other minority groups, definitely applicable to many women that is for sure. In many respects we share these problems, which is, again, why I think we should explore the greater issue that causes both privileges and disadvantages on all sides. That, to me, seems more productive than shouting down a given transguy who walks into a trans/male id thread talking about his experience.

[Thinker]

and if he stands up for himself he must be exercising his male privilege.

*That* is what I've been trying to put my finger on! Something in this has felt very "catch-22"-ish to me, and I couldn't get down to it.

Well said, Ender.

[Jaques]

I have witnessed women disempowering men and reducing them to tears....................its quite common

Thank you blade..................it happens...........GJ

[CherylNYC]

Thank you blade..................it happens...........GJ

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

[Thinker]

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

:) I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

[CherylNYC]

:) I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

You're right. I should have known better than to respond when I saw that the poster felt compelled to repost the remark after nobody responded the first time. I won't fall for it again.

[Mister Bent]

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?


I've found this users' posts, frankly, ridiculous and largely lacking in content and relevance. I thought by intent, and so not worth comment.

I guess that means I didn't take the bait.

[Corkey]

I'm with Bent and Thinker, it wasn't a question of it being right, it was in My view point a statement minus facts.

[EnderD_503]

:) I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

^This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the post/repost as well. To me those kinds of comments also throw a stick in the spokes when it comes to communicating concerns to each other. Kind of like going backward rather than forward.

[Martina]

Isn't male privilege useful FOR speaking up when sexist remarks are made? i know this is a trans thread. i am not sure i can do any good by speaking here. i have been asked questions and then criticized for coming in here at all. My responses have been characterized as finger wagging and as shouting down. i can't really productively engage with that.

Thinker and Ender, it's not about how i feel about the lives of transmen. Of course, i must take responsibility for cis-privilege. And it's not, imo, about what goes on here on this thread or on this site. I am not trying to silence anyone here or anywhere.

I restate my point, that in the world, men who are not aware of male privilege, do harm. i hope that all men take responsibility for that unequivocally. i do not think that requests for exemptions, if that is what i am hearing, make any sense in real world situations.

i have no control over any one else's behavior. i do not want it. i do know that the more often i am told that my concern with the harm that male privilege can do should not be a priority, the less likely i am to hear others' concerns also. Male privilege is a safety issue for me.

[Thinker]

Isn't male privilege useful FOR speaking up when sexist remarks are made? i know this is a trans thread. i am not sure i can do any good by speaking here. i have been asked questions and then criticized for coming in here at all. My responses have been characterized as finger wagging and as shouting down. i can't really productively engage with that.

Thinker and Ender, it's not about how i feel about the lives of transmen. Of course, i must take responsibility for cis-privilege. And it's not, imo, about what goes on here on this thread or on this site. I am not trying to silence anyone here or anywhere.

I restate my point, that in the world, men who are not aware of male privilege, do harm. i hope that all men take responsibility for that unequivocally. i do not think that requests for exemptions, if that is what i am hearing, make any sense in real world situations.

i have no control over any one else's behavior. i do not want it. i do know that the more often i am told that my concern with the harm that male privilege can do should not be a priority, the less likely i am to hear others' concerns also. Male privilege is a safety issue for me.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here. Does this have to do with my decision not to engage Jacques or respond to his comment?

If so (and I realize that may not be what your point was) then all I have to say to that is this... Sometimes people post things here for NO OTHER REASON than to spark a fire or poke at someone/something. For me, personally, I felt that was what was happening, and I opted not to go down a road that I (again, just me) felt would be fruitless and would take the light off what I felt was a more important discussion.

Again, that's just me and why I did what I did and said what I said.

I know from experience (as I'm sure most of us do) that you can't educate everyone and you can't get them to see another perspective. I also know that in discussion forums, in particular, there are people who *intentionally* drop little stink bombs just to get the discussion to go elsewhere. I just wasn't willing to do that, and I still don't think it would have been wise or beneficial to engage Jacques in that instance.

And again, to Jacques... I really mean no disrespect to you on a personal level. I just have a strong gut feeling that you weren't really trying to participate in a positive way. The fact that you only made one comment and then repeated it tells me I just might be right.

And if I'm wrong...well....it won't be the first time and it certainly won't be the last.

Martina, if I was way off here, my apologies to you. Like I said, I couldn't grasp a clear point with what you wrote. I'm sure that's on me. If I was off, then maybe you wouldn't mind a little elaboration???

Respectfully,
Thinker

[Thinker]

^This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the post/repost as well. To me those kinds of comments also throw a stick in the spokes when it comes to communicating concerns to each other. Kind of like going backward rather than forward.

Exactly. The bolded statement especially.

[Martina]

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

[Chazz]

i am not talking about the circumstances of a man's life or making generalizations about how much he may get out of his privilege.

i may not KNOW that i am interacting with a transman. i do know i am interacting with a man. And if he is careless about the way he handles his privilege, he will do harm. i do not like to hear anyone denying that responsibility. It's not all about the transmen's personal experience or how educated a cis-gender person should be ideally.

The fact is that in the office or sitting in a classroom, a man interacting with a woman has a responsibility to be aware of male privilege and how that can disempower her.

All gender privilege is unearned. It doesn't matter how one comes by it (i.e.. attractiveness, "passing privilege", transitioning, etc.). It's all unearned because it's a byproduct of patriarchy.

These issues can be argued to the point of inanity, but they count for nothing if we do not excavate the inherent sexism entrenched in the false duality of gender roles.

The capacity to do that may be a lost art.

[Chazz]

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

Your posts have been perfectly clear. I agree with you. There is no justification for anyone exerting any kind of gender privilege over anyone, ever. How they arrive at that privilege is incidental.

[Thinker]

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

I agree with you on both counts. And given the situation, the manner in which he posted, and a little history of similar posts, I opted out of engaging.

I do the very best I can in navigating this new "me" and my new life. I have addressed unbelievably ignorant and cruel statements and felt my heart beating in my throat when doing so. I have also ignored some ignorant sh*t.

I don't think for one second I have made the correct decision each time. As a matter of fact, I think I screw up quite a bit. But I can say with 100% certainty that I do more good than harm, and I treat ALL people with the same courtesy and respect with which I would like to be treated.

It would be nice if you and everyone I come across approved of every choice I made/make, but that's just not gonna happen. In this particular situation, you have reasons for believing something should have been said; and I have reasons for believing that addressing it would have been a bad move. I don't think either of us is wrong or intended harm; we just see it differently.

[SelfMadeMan]

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

[HerDaddy]

I'm with Bent and Thinker


Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower. :seeingstars:

[weatherboi]

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower. :seeingstars:

excuse me could you please clarify yourself a little better because your post seems a little angry...and the hioghlighted part could you expound because it feels really gross what you are stating here...thank you

[Thinker]

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower. :seeingstars:

HerDaddy,

First off, my experience of/with Corkey is that he is MORE than capable of thinking for himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with chiming in on these boards that you agree with other posters.

Secondly, neither Mr. Bent nor Corkey are "she butches"; and I find it completely rude and disrespectful that you would make such a statement. We offer a community of support here, and those types of remarks are not supportive at all.

Thinker (posting as a member, no moderator)

[HerDaddy]

HerDaddy,

First off, my experience of/with Corkey is that he is MORE than capable of thinking for himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with chiming in on these boards that you agree with other posters.

Secondly, neither Mr. Bent nor Corkey are "she butches"; and I find it completely rude and disrespectful that you would make such a statement. We offer a community of support here, and those types of remarks are not supportive at all.

Thinker (posting as a member, no moderator)

I'm sorry you feel that others are not allowed to have opinions.

[Thinker]

I'm sorry you feel that others are not allowed to have opinions.

You can have all the opinions you want. I'm sorry it's problematic to *you* that someone is going to call you out on your opinions.

And that *is* going to be what happens.

It's not okay to come into these threads and be shitty to people. When it's done, it gets called out.

[Queerasfck]

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower. :seeingstars:

You wouldn't know anything about it. Why don't you step off jerk.

[Mister Bent]

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower. :seeingstars:


HerDaddy, claiming you are someone's daddy doesn't make you one either, but I'm not going to challenge your personal perception - and possibly misguided notion - that you are one. It's clear you should have read a lot more, and all over these forums, before putting fingers to keyboard. You do not get to call me, or any other member who does not so identify, a "she butch." I'm not even sure what that is.

I'd be angry at your offensive posts here, but I find anger is an emotion wasted on the ignorant, instead I'll simply hope that you continue to read and educate yourself before continuing to insult members of this website.

[AtLast]

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

I agree with you very much in terms of what for me is an over simplification of facts and issues concerning transmen and male privilege. It is complicated and it bothers me that generalizations are made about this whole area.

And I also need to point out that many female or male identified butches are subjected to the same kinds of threats and violence (I certainly have been beat up- and yes, raped and I continue to watch where I go). Femmes are as well. We queers in general are not exactly welcome by all.

I wish we all could look at these variables without lumping each other into boxes. My transmen friends all have varying insights into their experiences with male privilege- they are individuals with varying backgrounds. And my son (non-trans) has a whole different take on things as a feminist male in US society. Transwomen I know can also be a good resource for looking at the opposite effect of losing this privilege.

For me, it all comes down to personal consciousness-

[Thinker]

I admit it. My emotions got the better of me on that one. It's kinda funny because we were just discussing not taking "bait" earlier in this thread, and I took it hook, line, and sinker on this one!

Oops...

[hpychick]

Thinker,

It happens to each of us from time to time. I try to remember, "do no harm" as philosophy I live by.

Anger is important where injustice and ignorance are present.

I hope it's all right that I stepped in here. I want you all to know that my support is yours and inasmuch as I can, I have your back, too.

Sunny

I admit it. My emotions got the better of me on that one. It's kinda funny because we were just discussing not taking "bait" earlier in this thread, and I took it hook, line, and sinker on this one!

Oops...

[AtLast]

Hey all,

We have banned this screen name. This is a troll hiding behind a proxy and is here to create drama. So lets just step over this one rather than giving this idiot any more screen time.

Thanks for reporting this!

Jackhammer

ARGH! But, you caught it and thank you!

[BullDog]

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

Mike I agree with this. I think it is helpful to hear the complexities of what transmen go through to understand better and to acknowledge your struggles.

However, I also haven't seen Martina or anyone else who has brought up male privilege saying transmen have the same amount of privilege as a male who isn't trans either. From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

When women experience sexism from men it feels exactly the same whether they are transmen or not- or at least it does to many. When transmen talk down at me on this forum (not all do), it feels exactly the same as if a man out on the street who isn't trans does. So we have to experience sexism and the effects of male privilege over and over- and from many womens experience it doesn't feel any different whether someone is trans or not.

Male privilege can indeed be situational and vary depending on race, class, being trans or not and other factors. I don't see where anyone has denied that.