Casey Anthony - guilty, or not?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well, she'll be out at the latest in July. Bleah...

[princessbelle]

Well, she'll be out at the latest in July. Bleah...

It's all so unfair and nothing we can do.

I suppose it is what it is. However, i believe as many here, she will end up back in jail for something, it is just a matter of time. Just worries me what it will be due to.

Hate to be a "debby downer" but it's just all very sad to me and disheartening.

[Apocalipstic]

When I lost a child, drinking and dancing was the furthest thing from my mind, I'm trying really hard to wrap my mind around the partying, the "the kids out of town", the blaming 2 POC, the breaking in her own parents shed for gas cans, duct tape, I mean I could go on and on. Sociopaths can go on with life without skipping a beat, she's got a taste for it she won't stop, they never do.

This is what gets me. Even if what she said in court is true....she is scary.

[Jess]

If there can be anything "good" seen coming out of this tragedy, it is the people's action to indeed change or create new laws based upon the unrest of sentiment following this trial.

Several states as well as a motion to create a Federal Law dubbed the Caylee Law are now the buzz.

As a people, we do certainly have the right to feel enraged when we see what we think is injustice, however, instead of arguing among ourselves, it may serve our righteous anger better to find or start the movement to prevent this from happening again.

A couple of stories that give me hope that WE are NOT sitting idly by, but are indeed looking for a means to change things:

In Oklahoma:
http://www.koco.com/r/28472049/detail.html

In Florida:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43659842/ns/local_news-orlando_fl/t/new-law-proposed-wake-caylees-death/

On the Federal level:
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/conlaw/2011/07/caylees-law-proposal-for-federal-statute-constitutional-power.html

One thing we can do:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/caylees-law-for-caylee-marie-anthony/

[Queerasfck]

Nice..... this is a very nice way to bait someone. wtf?
If he was saying that he would have said that. Yer reading in.

Now I see how people get in arguments on this site. I'm not here enough to witness it first hand, but this time I am.

Hope this made you feel good, whoever you are.

I'm irritated by it. Blocking now. So say whatever. I'd report it if I knew how.

FYI, to report someone's post you simply go to the bottom left side of the particular offensive post and click on the small red triangle with the exclamation point on it and leave your message as to why the post is being reported.

[Apocalipstic]

If there can be anything "good" seen coming out of this tragedy, it is the people's action to indeed change or create new laws based upon the unrest of sentiment following this trial.

Several states as well as a motion to create a Federal Law dubbed the Caylee Law are now the buzz.

As a people, we do certainly have the right to feel enraged when we see what we think is injustice, however, instead of arguing among ourselves, it may serve our righteous anger better to find or start the movement to prevent this from happening again.

A couple of stories that give me hope that WE are NOT sitting idly by, but are indeed looking for a means to change things:

In Oklahoma:
http://www.koco.com/r/28472049/detail.html

In Florida:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43659842/ns/local_news-orlando_fl/t/new-law-proposed-wake-caylees-death/

On the Federal level:
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/conlaw/2011/07/caylees-law-proposal-for-federal-statute-constitutional-power.html

One thing we can do:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/caylees-law-for-caylee-marie-anthony/

If nothing else, I bet the number of crimes one is charged in these cases will increase...at best case scenario she did way more than just lie to the police.

[Jess]

If nothing else, I bet the number of crimes one is charged in these cases will increase...at best case scenario she did way more than just lie to the police.


I agree. I think unfortunately the cruelty that our society imposes upon one another ( even on our children) has been too taboo to speak about ( much less create laws regarding) until the advent of the internet and our ability to instantly share our feelings.

I do think we will see more encompassing laws as "the people" are able to respond so quickly and directly to our lawmakers.

Depraved indifference is the one thing that keeps coming to mind.

Not to continue stirring a pot, I do hope that as a society, we begin to more quickly enlist a means for prevention rather than live in the "woulda/coulda/shoulda" mentality of our past.

[Mister Bent]

FYI, to report someone's post you simply go to the bottom left side of the particular offensive post and click on the small red triangle with the exclamation point on it and leave your message as to why the post is being reported.


You really know how to help a brother out.

At least I was spared having to give a lesson in how to follow the logic of a statement.

[Jess]

Oklahoma woman calls for parents who fail to notify police of missing child to be charged with felony; more than 37,000 supporters join in less than 24 hours.

More than 37,000 people in all 50 states have joined a Change.org campaign calling for a federal law -- called “Caylee’s Law” -- that would make the failure of a parent to notify law enforcement of a child’s disappearance a felony.

Casey Anthony was found “not guilty” of first-degree murder or manslaughter on Tuesday in the case of her two-year-old daughter Caylee’s death. One of the central controversies of the case has been the fact that Anthony never notified law enforcement that her daughter was missing. Caylee was last seen on June 16, 2008; grandmother Cindy Anthony notified the police on July 15, a month later.

After hearing the verdict and seeing a Facebook page response, Oklahoman Michelle Crowder started a Change.org petition asking Congress to create “Caylee’s Law,” making it a federal offense and a felony for a parent or guardian to fail to report a child’s disappearance to law enforcement.

Nearly 2,000 people have signed the “Caylee’s Law” petition each hour since its creation, making it the fastest-growing campaign on Change.org.

"When I saw that Casey Anthony had been found not guilty in the murder of little Caylee, and that she was only being convicted of lying to the police about her disappearance, I was sickened; I could not believe she was not being charged with child neglect or endangerment, or even obstruction of justice,” said petition-starter Michelle Crowder.

“I saw a page on Facebook proposing that a law be made, but I saw nothing about a petition being started for it. So, I decided to start one on Change.org because I have signed several petitions on the site and I knew it would be a way to reach people and hopefully get something done.”

Michelle continued, “I am hoping that this will be made into a federal law so that no other child's life, disappearance, and/or death is treated in the manner that poor Caylee's was treated. No child deserves that."

“There is extensive debate about this issue, and this campaign has been remarkable,” said Change.org founder Ben Rattray. “In less than 24 hours, a woman in Oklahoma has recruited tens of thousands of supporters for her cause. Change.org is about empowering anyone, anywhere, to take action on the issues that are important to them, and it is the perfect platform for this record-breaking campaign.”

Change.org, the world’s fastest-growing platform for social change, was profiled this week in the New York Times, Sacramento Bee, and Washington Times.


You can click here to sign this petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/create-caylees-law

[cinderella]

(sorry, that should've read: And you *know* what, Femmie...)

even if she came out and blatently said she did do it, and even elaborated on how/why she killed Caylee, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING they can do to her - she has been acquitted, and cannot be tried again for the same crime - that's Double Jeopardy. Except, of course, she cannot run nor hide from the people's wrath. Even if she never said anything, she still has to face the public, and a good majority of the public is outraged and angry. Somebody may just be angry enough to 'off' her. All I know is, no matter where this woman goes, she will have no peace. Not because she cares or feels any remorse over Caylee, but because of the hell people are going to give her. So essentially, she will never be 'free', even if she is not in jail.


You're right - they never do. In their minds, whatever they do is justifiable. Maybe not to you or me or anyone else, but in their minds, everything, including lives - are expendable. I'm not necessarily stating that every narcissist/sociopath in the world is a killer, but the ones that are, are very dangerous and cunning people indeed. They push on with no conscience whatsoever.

On another note: There is a juror who is speaking about it now, and she says that the only reason why she was acquitted was because of the evidence -- no one knows how Caylee died - it wasn't because of what they felt in their hearts. I don't think she is back peddling - one of the first things she said was what has been said in here - she's not guilty, but she's not innocent. I think the majority of people feel that way with very few feeling that she was actually innocent.

Makes me wonder if the defense team had their own doubts about her, which I am sure they did. They called her out as a liar right off the bat ... so how can they not? Which makes me think about this supposed book deal that is in the works ... not that I would ever consider buying it - but with four counts of lying to the police and authorities - the book should be considered fiction. Her side of the story means absolutely nothing - it would be all lies anyway I imagine.

[princessbelle]

Release date....

Casey Anthony walks on JULY 13. Next Wednesday.


The law was followed. The judge could do no more than issue her the maximum amount of time.

I don't get why her time served for bad checks can now go retro to the offence she was just charged on. However, that is evidently the law.

Again, it is what it is.

Signing that petition for Caylee's Law.

Maybe, possibly...something positiive out of this...

[cinderella]

...that's not an uncommon Hispanic name. Maybe she was the only one in the vacinity, but still, many Zenaida Gonzlez' will be stigmatized by this, I think.

The real Zenaida already stated that she will sue Casey for defamation. She was denied employment because she was believed to be a baby kidnapper.

I hope they appeal and file a civil suit. It will keep Casey in the judicial system for a while if nothing else.

[Heart]

A different perspective on "Caylee's Law:" I worked with a survivor of horrific intimate partner violence whose husband suffocated their 2-month old under a mattress and forced the mother to bury the child. Because they were poor immigrants the authorities didn't know or care about what was happening in this family. When the mother was finally able to flee the house in which she had been literally imprisoned and hop a bus to escape, she was so traumatized, she could barely speak. Eventually, with help, she alerted authorities who arrested her husband.

How do you think Casey's Law would affect this mother?

(And I hope no one thinks that prosecutors wouldn't use such a law against a poor battered immigrant victim of domestic violence -- because I can assure you they would. There are hundreds of such victims imprisoned all across the U.S. right now).

Heart

[apretty]

You really know how to help a brother out.

At least I was spared having to give a lesson in how to follow the logic of a statement.



now i know why the sky is so blue and the summer is so hot and your legs are so white!

[princessbelle]

A different perspective on "Caylee's Law:" I worked with a survivor of horrific intimate partner violence whose husband suffocated their 2-month old under a mattress and forced the mother to bury the child. Because they were poor immigrants the authorities didn't know or care about what was happening in this family. When the mother was finally able to flee the house in which she had been literally imprisoned and hop a bus to escape, she was so traumatized, she could barely speak. Eventually, with help, she alerted authorities who arrested her husband.

How do you think Casey's Law would affect this mother?

(And I hope no one thinks that prosecutors wouldn't use such a law against a poor battered immigrant victim of domestic violence -- because I can assure you they would. There are hundreds of such victims imprisoned all across the U.S. right now).

Heart

Surely under these circumstances it would be dealt with differently. She certainly was fearing for her life.

Thanks for giving this a different perspective. Information is always a good thing. :)

[Novelafemme]

A different perspective on "Caylee's Law:" I worked with a survivor of horrific intimate partner violence whose husband suffocated their 2-month old under a mattress and forced the mother to bury the child. Because they were poor immigrants the authorities didn't know or care about what was happening in this family. When the mother was finally able to flee the house in which she had been literally imprisoned and hop a bus to escape, she was so traumatized, she could barely speak. Eventually, with help, she alerted authorities who arrested her husband.

How do you think Casey's Law would affect this mother?

(And I hope no one thinks that prosecutors wouldn't use such a law against a poor battered immigrant victim of domestic violence -- because I can assure you they would. There are hundreds of such victims imprisoned all across the U.S. right now).

Heart

This is just horrific, Heart. Thank you for sharing as this scenario is one that needs to be addressed before implementing such a law.

[JustJo]

This is just horrific, Heart. Thank you for sharing as this scenario is one that needs to be addressed before implementing such a law.

Absolutely, yes. It seems like it could certainly be written to address a situation in which the parent feared for their life or safety and still address the "Casey situation" in which she was clearly just partying on and having fun.

[Mister Bent]

Oklahoma woman calls for parents who fail to notify police of missing child to be charged with felony; more than 37,000 supporters join in less than 24 hours.

More than 37,000 people in all 50 states have joined a Change.org campaign calling for a federal law -- called “Caylee’s Law” -- that would make the failure of a parent to notify law enforcement of a child’s disappearance a felony.

A different perspective on "Caylee's Law:" I worked with a survivor of horrific intimate partner violence whose husband suffocated their 2-month old under a mattress and forced the mother to bury the child. Because they were poor immigrants the authorities didn't know or care about what was happening in this family. When the mother was finally able to flee the house in which she had been literally imprisoned and hop a bus to escape, she was so traumatized, she could barely speak. Eventually, with help, she alerted authorities who arrested her husband.

How do you think Casey's Law would affect this mother?

(And I hope no one thinks that prosecutors wouldn't use such a law against a poor battered immigrant victim of domestic violence -- because I can assure you they would. There are hundreds of such victims imprisoned all across the U.S. right now).

Heart

Heart, you raise an excellent point. While Caylee's Law only means that a parent could be charged, not convicted. Unfortunately, that means we have to trust the police and the justice system in the handling of those cases. Ideally, proper investigation would clear an abused or otherwise victimized parent. I think one thing that the Casey Anthony media circus underscores, and which has been discussed here, is the schism in our justice system when it comes to race. I can imagine a scenario where the mother you wrote about and Casey Anthony are both put in the situation of having to explain where their child is, or why their child is missing, and only one of them walking out of the police station.

The intent is good, however, toward an effort to keep children safe and making parents more accountable (because apparently some have forgotten that fundamental concept of parenting). My question is what's to be done for a child like Christian Choate (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/26/christian-choate-boy-who-_n_884731.html), of whom the state seems to have lost track? Maybe that's a different thread topic, but it raises all sorts of questions for me, like what is the state's responsibility in a situation like his, in which Child Protective Services had been involved?

[NJFemmie]

http://www.wesh.com/2011/0706/28459082_240X310.jpg

Yup, that's kinda how a lot of people feel .... like we've been given a huge fuck you.

[girl_dee]

George and Cindy had their lawyer prepare a statement for the press, which has just been released, saying:
"The family may never know what happened to Caylee Marie Anthony. They now have closure for this chapter of their life. They will now begin the long process of rebuilding their lives. Despite the baseless defense chosen by Casey Anthony, the family believes that the jury made a fair decision based on the evidence presented, the testimony presented, the scientific information presented, and the rules that they were given by the Honorable Judge Perry to guide them."



CLOSURE?

[Heart]

Whenever I hear/read about making parents more responsible/accountable, I consider how we live in one of the most family UNfriendly countries in the world, (so-called "family values," notwithstanding). With no universal child-care, afterschool or health care, no meaningful paid maternity/paternity leave, ever-shrinking access to free family planning and mental health care, not to mention lack of affordable housing and livable wages in many sectors, it's a wonder most parents do as well as they do.

This has nothing to do with this awful case, per se, but if we had these things in place, as many other devloped countries do, it would be a heck of a lot easier to weed out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent.

But these issues are complex, and require long-term solutions. It's easier to rant about a head-line grabbing case, whipped into a frenzy by the Nancy Graces of the tabloid media, and push through rightous and emotional legislation that may hurt innocent parents and their children.*

Heart

*not personal to anyone here, just my viewpoint.

[princessbelle]

George and Cindy had their lawyer prepare a statement for the press, which has just been released, saying:
"The family may never know what happened to Caylee Marie Anthony. They now have closure for this chapter of their life. They will now begin the long process of rebuilding their lives. Despite the baseless defense chosen by Casey Anthony, the family believes that the jury made a fair decision based on the evidence presented, the testimony presented, the scientific information presented, and the rules that they were given by the Honorable Judge Perry to guide them."



CLOSURE?

Thanks for posting Sassy girl. Well isn't that spiffy they can find closure. I, for one, cannot and will light my porch light every night for this little girl.

More than that...for all the little people of this world who have been murdered or abused and their murderers/abusers walk free.

This whole thing is just sickening.

[Gráinne]

Anyone else notice that the web /newspapers don't show her sobbing; they show her laughing or smirking.

I think justice failed here, laws and proceedures nonwithstanding. I hope guilt eats her from inside the rest of her days (but I doubt it). She'll have more money than Job by the following Monday.

[Heart]

Here we go:

http://news.yahoo.com/brothers-3-4-found-dead-car-wisconsin-002109465.html

These children went missing, mother had police contact, told them what she knew, and the children were discovered -- murdered, apparently by her abusive boyfriend, who had a long history of violence. He's been arrested.
While this mother could not be charged under Caylee's Law, as she DID contact authorities, how many will blame her anyway -- for being involved with an abuser/criminal?

In the 1980s Hedda Nussbaum's adopted daugher was killed by her abusive husband Joel Steinburg. They were both arrested, he for murder, she for neglect. She turned state's evidence and was granted immunity. There was a huge national outcry against her even though he had permanantly re-arranged her face, (I mean this literally -- she looked nothing like she did before she met him), tortured and terrified her and the child for years. He was convicted of manslaughter and receivedof 8-25. She had to go into hiding because of the public's rage against her for "allowing" it to happen.

My point? One of our favorite past-times in this country is blaming mothers.
I'll lay bets that most of you can name five killer mothers off the top of your heads. Now try and name five killer fathers. (Father's are ten times more likely to be responsible for the death of a child.)

In another case in NH, a mother begged and pleaded with authorities to find her children who did not return on time from court-ordered visitation. The police did nothing, sending the mother to family court which took days. In the meantime, the kids were killed by her ex. Caylee's Law is intended to punish bad parents (especially bad mothers), but what about systems such as police, child welfare, courts, that neglect the needs of families, the fears of violence survivors, enact racist, sexist, anti-immigrant, and homophobic biases, and hold mothers and fathers to vastly different standards?

Seriously. Can we move beyond this case and get to some of the deeper issues?*

Heart

*I don't mean anyone here personally, I just mean the discourse in general.

[scootebaby]

Of course the TVs and websites and newspapers are gonna ONLY show her laughing and smirking. The general public wouldnt want it any other way. I know im one of the outsiders where this is concerned,but as i was telling Jo last night...there ARE ppl out there that support Casey(and have from the beginning) and they are posting and commenting and interviewing but THEY dont get any media time whatso ever bc that would take attention off of the media circus surrounding all of this.

And i dont mean this too any particular person in here,more a general /observation from me,but this has been going on for over 3 yrs..Remember she was last seen on JUNE 16th 2008--we are now in July 2011...where were the porch lights,the support,the ppl trying to get laws passed then? was the public waiting to see if she would get put to death? would that have changed things? would the porch lights not be on now? would there not be a petition for Caylees Law?

My point is this--after the initial media crush there was VERY little about this in the news or on the lips of ppl. Im truly curious as to the why.

oh and something that came to me last night--bc im known to look at different scenarios/possibilities--George Anthony was a retired HOMICIDE detective...he would know(or at the very least have some knowledge of procedure) what would really be needed to get a conviction,and knew it would never be found....so could he have been more involved? could Caylees reaction be to him "throwing" her under the bus--on top of any other crime perpetrated upon her in her life by him? I personally feel she did not act alone in this.

As someone said we will NEVER know all the facts surrounding this case,and altho i understand the emotion response i also know that things can be misconstrued all the time--and does, and people pay the price.


just my thoughts at the moment!

[NJFemmie]

Please sign this petition and share on your FB pages and twitter accounts:

http://news.change.org/stories/more-than-250000-americans-join-viral-caylees-law-campaign

They have over 370K signatures already and need more for Caylee's Law.

Whether you agree with the verdict or not - no child should go missing and unreported like this again.

[scootebaby]

thanks NJ signed!

and agreed...no matter personal thoughts this bill should be signed,and hopefully it will get passed!

[AtLast]

Whenever I hear/read about making parents more responsible/accountable, I consider how we live in one of the most family UNfriendly countries in the world, (so-called "family values," notwithstanding). With no universal child-care, afterschool or health care, no meaningful paid maternity/paternity leave, ever-shrinking access to free family planning and mental health care, not to mention lack of affordable housing and livable wages in many sectors, it's a wonder most parents do as well as they do.

This has nothing to do with this awful case, per se, but if we had these things in place, as many other devloped countries do, it would be a heck of a lot easier to weed out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent.But these issues are complex, and require long-term solutions. It's easier to rant about a head-line grabbing case, whipped into a frenzy by the Nancy Graces of the tabloid media, and push through rightous and emotional legislation that may hurt innocent parents and their children.*

Heart

*not personal to anyone here, just my viewpoint.

Yes, very complex and right now the pittiful few and under-funded services in the US are under attack so that a very few can continue to pay less in taxes that support these services than the many.

When will the US get the priorities in line with needs and the things that can make a difference in child rearing and parent support? Being able to identify pathological parents is vital to stopping these kinds of things from happening.

There are counties right now that are cutting the school week to 4 days- and the US is falling below in education around the world.

I also am having trouble with the "mother blame" that goes on. No, I do not see the verdicts here as just at all and I can't even watch video of this little girl- haven't been able to since the start of this case. But, so much of what promotes these kinds of horrible actions in our country just never seem to get addressed.

[Toughy]

Seriously. Can we move beyond this case and get to some of the deeper issues?*

Thank you Heart!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You beat me to the punch. I truly sincerely worry when folks run about and sign on-line petitions for laws they haven't even read. GREAT care must be taken in how these laws are written so there are no unintended consequences. This is pure reaction and is not really going to help. Considered action makes far more sense.

----------
I still don't understand why folks think she deserved the death penalty when there are no facts as to who killed the child, how the child was killed and why it happened. Facts are needed in our system, not conjecture and emotion. Justice is never served when emotion and vigilanteism are disguised as fact.

edited to add: part of me wishes Casey would sue Nancy Grace for defamation, libel and slander. I hate Nancy Grace and all the pundits like her.....they do way more harm than good....

[Mr. Moon]

A different perspective on "Caylee's Law:" I worked with a survivor of horrific intimate partner violence whose husband suffocated their 2-month old under a mattress and forced the mother to bury the child. Because they were poor immigrants the authorities didn't know or care about what was happening in this family. When the mother was finally able to flee the house in which she had been literally imprisoned and hop a bus to escape, she was so traumatized, she could barely speak. Eventually, with help, she alerted authorities who arrested her husband.

How do you think Casey's Law would affect this mother?

(And I hope no one thinks that prosecutors wouldn't use such a law against a poor battered immigrant victim of domestic violence -- because I can assure you they would. There are hundreds of such victims imprisoned all across the U.S. right now).

Heart

Thank you Heart! EXACTLY what I've been saying. Making blanket laws about this is very very dangerous. Typical Governmental move though. They do it about everything. Making blanket type laws is invasive to my personal rights! (I'm still traumatized about seat belt laws....like my flying body is such a lethal weapon).
Seriously though. There will be no "common sense" when it comes to this law. There will be a simple blanket law, you don't do it, yer arrested. They won't care about circumstances because you can't possibly think up all the circumstances that could arise to hold someone up from notifying them. Isn't anyone outraged by these type laws and how they could be used against us? too much government in my life I tell ya! Ugh! Calm down people, and stop the mob mentality! I know of two other situations that happened RIGHT NOW where children were killed by caretakers/parents. Happens all the time somewhere on this earth. It is sad but knee jerk reactions aren't helping!!

rant rant sorry!

[Mr. Moon]

http://www.wesh.com/2011/0706/28459082_240X310.jpg

Yup, that's kinda how a lot of people feel .... like we've been given a huge fuck you.

I think it's pretty appropriate considering how the media has hounded and exploited this whole situation.

[girl_dee]

These tragedies are coming out of the woodwork..

This one today:


<snip>

MONTREAL - Some Quebecers called for the death penalty as anger raged at a former doctor who was found not criminally responsible for killing his two young children.

Guy Turcotte, 39, admitted to stabbing five-year-old Olivier and three-year-old Anne Sophie 46 times in his rented home in Piedmont, north of Montreal, on February 20, 2009.

The 11 jurors accepted the defence's argument that Turcotte suffered from depression, anxiety and was suicidal after he found out his estranged wife was having an affair with a friend.

He had sent an e-mail to his ex-wife on the day of the killings that read "you want war, you'll have it."

The court also heard that little Olivier tried in vain to talk his father out of killing him, crying "no papa," before Turcotte plunged the knife into his stomach. The trial judge ruled that the jury was not allowed to hear that Turcotte refused to pay for his children's funerals.

Law enforcement officials and ordinary citizens blasted Tuesday's verdict, saying it sends the wrong message to fathers going through messy divorces.


<snip>


If this was not a case of *I'll get even with the ex* I don't know what was!
I am sure the mother is to blame here too. grrrrrr

What law could have protected these kids??

[cinderella]

Heart, that is an excellent idea - you should start a thread dedicated to "deeper issues". But, as far as your comment of "can we move beyond this case..." I started this thread specifically for the discussion of 'this case' - to get opinions on whether Casey Anthony was guilty or not, and it still remains the focus of the thread.

That said, I have read your comments with great interest. They are enlightening, and give much food for thought. I welcome your input and any further comments you wish to share with us. But I respectfully request that you not try to change the intended purpose of this thread. Thank you.

Here we go:

http://news.yahoo.com/brothers-3-4-found-dead-car-wisconsin-002109465.html

These children went missing, mother had police contact, told them what she knew, and the children were discovered -- murdered, apparently by her abusive boyfriend, who had a long history of violence. He's been arrested.
While this mother could not be charged under Caylee's Law, as she DID contact authorities, how many will blame her anyway -- for being involved with an abuser/criminal?

In the 1980s Hedda Nussbaum's adopted daugher was killed by her abusive husband Joel Steinburg. They were both arrested, he for murder, she for neglect. She turned state's evidence and was granted immunity. There was a huge national outcry against her even though he had permanantly re-arranged her face, (I mean this literally -- she looked nothing like she did before she met him), tortured and terrified her and the child for years. He was convicted of manslaughter and receivedof 8-25. She had to go into hiding because of the public's rage against her for "allowing" it to happen.

My point? One of our favorite past-times in this country is blaming mothers.
I'll lay bets that most of you can name five killer mothers off the top of your heads. Now try and name five killer fathers. (Father's are ten times more likely to be responsible for the death of a child.)

In another case in NH, a mother begged and pleaded with authorities to find her children who did not return on time from court-ordered visitation. The police did nothing, sending the mother to family court which took days. In the meantime, the kids were killed by her ex. Caylee's Law is intended to punish bad parents (especially bad mothers), but what about systems such as police, child welfare, courts, that neglect the needs of families, the fears of violence survivors, enact racist, sexist, anti-immigrant, and homophobic biases, and hold mothers and fathers to vastly different standards?

Seriously. Can we move beyond this case and get to some of the deeper issues?*

Heart

*I don't mean anyone here personally, I just mean the discourse in general.

[cinderella]

...and I'm upset at myself for doing that - there's things to be done...however, I can't tear myself away. The last time I did that, it was decided that Casey would be out in 6 days - how it got to that point, I don't know - I missed that part.

In any case, things keep evolving...now the discussion has turned to where will she go? Can she live safely in society? Is her safety at stake? All I know is right or wrong, sensible or not, there are alot of angry people out there, and it wouldn't surprise me if some unbalanced person does her harm. Where do you suppose she could live, and how, in this country? Some have suggested plastic surgery, a name change, and putting great distance between herself and Florida. But seriously, where in the US could she possibly go - the world, for that matter.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one - speculations, sensible or not, are welcome. I'm just curious what everyone thinks about this.

[scootebaby]

To Mr Moon...thank you for your post. I did glance over the law that Change.org is trying to pass and i did sign it without first studying it further. like so many others i signed it without doing research..my reason was so much knee jerk as in emotional...however after reading ur post and thinking i realize u r absolutely right! There is no way to make that law work. Thank you for eduvating me a little today.

To Cinderella,

i do believe she will have a hard time for awhile...and i do agree her safety is gonna be an issue bc there are people out there who do stupid things. however i think that just like everything else it will die down eventually,and she will be able to resume a somewhat normal life---without having to do anything major to herself. There will always be someone out there that obsesses over her and what she did,but once time has passed or some other horrific crime fills our airways and print she will fall off the radar--unless she does something criminal!

Right now emotions are raw and there are those looking for their 15 sec of fame...in time tho

[princessbelle]

...and I'm upset at myself for doing that - there's things to be done...however, I can't tear myself away. The last time I did that, it was decided that Casey would be out in 6 days - how it got to that point, I don't know - I missed that part.

In any case, things keep evolving...now the discussion has turned to where will she go? Can she live safely in society? Is her safety at stake? All I know is right or wrong, sensible or not, there are alot of angry people out there, and it wouldn't surprise me if some unbalanced person does her harm. Where do you suppose she could live, and how, in this country? Some have suggested plastic surgery, a name change, and putting great distance between herself and Florida. But seriously, where in the US could she possibly go - the world, for that matter.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one - speculations, sensible or not, are welcome. I'm just curious what everyone thinks about this.

I have stopped watching. I've been busy today, but now i'm just getting updates here and on the regular news. It appears though that she may not be safe, and that is worrisome to me. I do think she did this horrible act. I do not however, wish any maleficence to fall upon her due to an irate member of society.

I hope she just disappears out of the sight of the world for now. Karma is evident, and something i believe in, to a fault probably. For me, and I hope for others, making some type of positive from a negative is what I will try to do.

[Jess]

Whenever I hear/read about making parents more responsible/accountable, I consider how we live in one of the most family UNfriendly countries in the world, (so-called "family values," notwithstanding). With no universal child-care, afterschool or health care, no meaningful paid maternity/paternity leave, ever-shrinking access to free family planning and mental health care, not to mention lack of affordable housing and livable wages in many sectors, it's a wonder most parents do as well as they do.

This has nothing to do with this awful case, per se, but if we had these things in place, as many other devloped countries do, it would be a heck of a lot easier to weed out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent.

But these issues are complex, and require long-term solutions. It's easier to rant about a head-line grabbing case, whipped into a frenzy by the Nancy Graces of the tabloid media, and push through rightous and emotional legislation that may hurt innocent parents and their children.*

Heart

*not personal to anyone here, just my viewpoint.

I totally agree that these issues are complicated and need to be addressed thoroughly when creating laws to protect children/ families.

The change.org petition was the immediate reaction of a concerned, well meaning citizen, who "acted" and if nothing else, will bring attention from law makers to begin to research the proper actions to take regarding missing, exploited and abused children. It is merely a stepping stone and without proper legalese would never become an actual law.

While it may not be THE answer legally, it is a beginning and is bringing about discourse such as this. For that, I am grateful. I firmly believe that the more concerned citizens become aware and involved in the process, the more comprehensive our laws can become. It will be voices exactly like yours Heart, whom have the first hand knowledge of the inner workings of our social systems that will be and are some of the most needed.

Thank you for what you do for families. I can only imagine the frustration on the part of people who are in the trenches trying to sincerely get "actual" support where it is truly needed and that is usually way before this type of incident ever happens.

[T D]

I know that here in California, the woman who was dating Scott Peterson, Amber Frey, when he allegedly killed his wife (Laci) and unborn child, has moved to another state and changed her name. It can be done, but it takes time for people to forget. Sometimes a LOT of time.

As for whether or not Casey Anthony is guilty? I don't think anyone has the answer to that question, except Casey Anthony.

Just my thoughts on these two questions.

[Mister Bent]

Whenever I hear/read about making parents more responsible/accountable, I consider how we live in one of the most family UNfriendly countries in the world, (so-called "family values," notwithstanding). With no universal child-care, afterschool or health care, no meaningful paid maternity/paternity leave, ever-shrinking access to free family planning and mental health care, not to mention lack of affordable housing and livable wages in many sectors, it's a wonder most parents do as well as they do.

This has nothing to do with this awful case, per se, but if we had these things in place, as many other devloped countries do, it would be a heck of a lot easier to weed out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent.

But these issues are complex, and require long-term solutions. It's easier to rant about a head-line grabbing case, whipped into a frenzy by the Nancy Graces of the tabloid media, and push through rightous and emotional legislation that may hurt innocent parents and their children.*

Heart

*not personal to anyone here, just my viewpoint.

As a single parent who has experienced the family UNfriendliness up close and personal, I could not agree with you more. Especially the importance of "weed(ing) out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent." There is a vast difference between those two creatures, and we should be wary of enacting any law that would trap the latter into the net with the former. But then, I find it hard to believe that even the most stressed out parent wouldn't report their child missing within a few hours, let alone 24 (or whatever the requirement) and that alone would serve as a weeding out process (though I'm not saying that's sufficient).

Like you, I am wary of knee jerk legislation, and would need to very carefully read all the fine print before I lend my signature.

[cinderella]

I too had a 'knee-jerk' reaction to this suggestion, but thanks to Heart's post, I don't think I will subscribe.

General 'Blanket Laws', as Heart put it, can seem to be a great thing, but ultimately can be dangerous and have serious repurcusions. I am a passionate Latin woman who tends to jump at conclusions, and want to 'get on the bandwagon' whenever something like Caylee's Law is suggested. But, thankfully, time and age has taught me a valuable lesson - be wary of 'good things'...they may not be so 'good' after all is said and done. In retrospect, I can see how this law can be a good idea gone bad...

Again, thanks for opening up my eyes, and conscienceness, Heart.

[JustJo]

I too had a 'knee-jerk' reaction to this suggestion, but thanks to Heart's post, I don't think I will subscribe.

General 'Blanket Laws', as Heart put it, can seem to be a great thing, but ultimately can be dangerous and have serious repurcusions. I am a passionate Latin woman who tends to jump at conclusions, and want to 'get on the bandwagon' whenever something like Caylee's Law is suggested. But, thankfully, time and age has taught me a valuable lesson - be wary of 'good things'...they may not be so 'good' after all is said and done. In retrospect, I can see how this law can be a good idea gone bad...

Again, thanks for opening up my eyes, and conscienceness, Heart.

I still think there is a need for such a law....it simply needs to be thought out and written carefully.

I don't think any of us need fear that a proposal is going to be lifted straight from Facebook or change.org and passed as law. It will be discussed, changed, and altered many times before anything is done.

I think petitions of this sort are valuable in that they tell our legislators that we see a gap in the law...and put them on course to addressing it.

[jules5041]

I totally respect everyone's opinion and am glad to have read them. I have kept up with this story since the very beginning.

I just happen to think she's guilty.

That's my two cents.

[NJFemmie]

It is a tangible proof of public opinion - that a law needs to be created. Once it is brought to legislative parties, they will fine tooth comb it and refine the legalities.

I've sifted through several of them this morning - and some I found to be quite harsh. One wanted to declare it first degree murder with a 25 year sentence. I think that's a bit much.

I am sure there will be considerations in those cases of extenuating circumstances. If someone can't report their child missing because they are being abused or held hostage, etc ... I sincerely doubt a court will throw her in jail on a felony charge if it proven she was forced, etc. They will amend it to make it as "right" as possible.

[NJFemmie]

Just two days after a Florida jury (http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-anthony-trial-aftermath-caylee-law-drafted-states/abcnews.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-juror-jury-sick-stomach-guilty-verdict/story?id=14005609) found Casey Anthony not guilty (http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-anthony-trial-aftermath-caylee-law-drafted-states/abcnews.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-guilty-murder-caylees-death/story?id=13987918) of murdering her 2-year old daughter Caylee, four states are drafting legislation being referred to as "Caylee's Law," which would tighten requirements on missing persons reports.



Lawmakers in Florida, Oklahoma, New York and West Virginia have all announced that they will propose versions of the law. This comes at the same time that an online petition for a "Caylee's Law" went viral on Change.org (http://www.change.org/petitions/create-caylees-law), which has collected over 300,000 signatures.
Oklahoma Rep. Paul Wesselhoft said that the petition, created by Michelle Crowder of Durant, Okla., caught his eye and the eyes of his constituents.
"Yesterday, I got a lot of emails from my constituents who are very outraged by the trial and the verdict," Wesselhoft told ABCNews.com. "We're all outraged that Caylee did not receive justice. There's no question about that."



Wesselhoft, a Republican, plans to propose a law at the start of Oklahoma's legislative session in 2012 that would make it a felony for a parent of guardian not to notify authorities within 24 hours of a child's death. He also plans to propose a requirement for parents to notify runaways under the age of 12 in a timely manner, although he admits having a time table for that is "more difficult because you don't know when the clock starts," he said.



More here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-anthony-trial-aftermath-caylee-law-drafted-states/story?id=14020260

[girl_dee]

Maybe it's me but isn't even 24 hours kinda long for a missing 2 year old?

[Jess]

Just two days after a Florida jury (http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-anthony-trial-aftermath-caylee-law-drafted-states/abcnews.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-juror-jury-sick-stomach-guilty-verdict/story?id=14005609) found Casey Anthony not guilty (http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-anthony-trial-aftermath-caylee-law-drafted-states/abcnews.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-guilty-murder-caylees-death/story?id=13987918) of murdering her 2-year old daughter Caylee, four states are drafting legislation being referred to as "Caylee's Law," which would tighten requirements on missing persons reports.



Lawmakers in Florida, Oklahoma, New York and West Virginia have all announced that they will propose versions of the law. This comes at the same time that an online petition for a "Caylee's Law" went viral on Change.org (http://www.change.org/petitions/create-caylees-law), which has collected over 300,000 signatures.
Oklahoma Rep. Paul Wesselhoft said that the petition, created by Michelle Crowder of Durant, Okla., caught his eye and the eyes of his constituents.
"Yesterday, I got a lot of emails from my constituents who are very outraged by the trial and the verdict," Wesselhoft told ABCNews.com. "We're all outraged that Caylee did not receive justice. There's no question about that."



Wesselhoft, a Republican, plans to propose a law at the start of Oklahoma's legislative session in 2012 that would make it a felony for a parent of guardian not to notify authorities within 24 hours of a child's death. He also plans to propose a requirement for parents to notify runaways under the age of 12 in a timely manner, although he admits having a time table for that is "more difficult because you don't know when the clock starts," he said.



More here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-anthony-trial-aftermath-caylee-law-drafted-states/story?id=14020260

and this is precisely the time that we ( generally/ collectively) need to contact our lawmakers/ representatives with the knowledge of the abused spouse type of scenario that Heart mentioned above.

We ( the people) have their attention, now it is up to us to make them aware of the potential dangers of the previously mentioned pitfalls of a "blanket law".

Conversations like the very one going on here, is what will help our representatives help our families. I do not see the action of the change.org petition initiator as negative or dangerous. I see it as an excellent opportunity for follow up from an informed public.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I have been glued to the TV watching this case. One of the protestors was carrying a sign that read "Somewhere a village is missing 12 idiots." Then there was a young guy on the other side of the red tape on the opposite side of the protestors who was carrying a sign "Marry Me Casey!". It boggles one's mind. :|

I do think that Casey isn't safe living in Florida. She does need to move, change her name, have plastic surgery, and move on with her life. However, I do think we will hear her commiting another crime for some reason or another. It is another OJ Simpson but with Casey.

I would like to know that since Casey is a convicted felon for the check fraud issues, does she have to pay the $4,000 when she is released from jail next week? And is there a time table for her to pay back the State of FL for the various searches for Caylee, police support and so on?

The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

:detective:

[scootebaby]

Andrew,i mean no disrespect,but ur statement of "single women who dislike men" is way off base and out of line. Altho it was a 7/5 split(if i recall correctly) i know of at least 2 female jurors were married. As for George....he made himself look untrusting..the way he went around answering instead of directly,or getting into a pissing match with Baez


The jury being blamed is ludicrous...they admitted they wanted to convicted,but the evidence THEY needed wasnt there. It took a lot of strength for them not to vote out of emotion--i cant imagine how hard that is.

As for pymt Casey is responsible for the $4000 court cost (which a pymt plan will be set up) as for what if any is her part in the search for Cayleee wont be determined until the hearing--which im unsure of when that happens!

[girl_dee]

pport and so on?

The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

:detective:


Huh? ...........

[tantalizingfemme]

I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

:detective:


Can you explain how single mothers = women who dislike men? I find this really offensive as a single mother.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Everyone has the right to their own opinion. That is why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.

[girl_dee]

Yes we all have a right to our opinions but no right to be offensive.

[scootebaby]

Andrew

I have ALWAYS tried to understand your reasonings and posts when a lot of people jump to the wrong conclusion,or flat out attack you,but your last post was totally a "fuck you" in my eyes to all of "US" single moms...and to me personally because i am the SINGLE mother of a MALE child.


You are right everyone is entitled to their own opinion...i guess kinda like everyone has the right to be an asshole!

[Andrew, Jr.]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was only stating my own personal opinion. I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion. This evening my neighbors and I were chatting about this case over dinner, and everyone agreed with my opinion. I am really surprised that folks here were offended because when chatting about this, some of the neighbors were single mothers.

I am now leaving this thread.

Andrew

[JustJo]

The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

:detective:


Excuse me?

I know I'm not the first one verbalizing this, but this statement is offensive.

There are an awful lot of us who are single mothers....and I would venture to guess it has no impact on our opinions about men.

As a matter of fact, both my partner and I are the single mothers of boys. Are you trying to tell us we dislike men? And, if so, when are we supposed to suddenly start disliking our sons?

You're calling this an "opinion" - which it is....but it's the same kind of opinion that leads to racism, sexism, sizism, ageism and all of the crap we're all supposedly working hard to rid ourselves of.

[JustJo]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was only stating my own personal opinion. I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion. This evening my neighbors and I were chatting about this case over dinner, and everyone agreed with my opinion. I am really surprised that folks here were offended because when chatting about this, some of the neighbors were single mothers.
I am now leaving this thread.

Andrew


I see....so if other people back up my racist opinions and they happen to be POC, then it's okay for me to say it?

[Thinker]

We're receiving reported posts from this thread. Let's steer clear of any dog-piling situations while the mod team sorts this out.

We'll be back.

Thanks.

Thinker (moderator)

[Scorp]

Personally, I'm done with reading this thread for a couple of reasons. Mostly because I may say something out of line and be considered a vigilante and it will be viewed as inappropriate (even though in my mind I feel differently) and I'm saying that openly here.

In time the truth will come out because it usually has a way of doing so.

Lastly, and most importantly, rest in peace sweet little Caylee. You're an angel in heaven and will not be forgotten. :candle: :candle: :candle:

- Scorp (unsubscribing from this thread)

[Thinker]

I'm going to steal a page out of June's play book and go through these posts with you; some are problematic and some are not.

The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

:detective:


Andrew, while it is true that is your opinion, that type of statement is *not* helpful and, as others pointed out, only lends itself to further perpetuate sexist notions. It's really not any different from the age old "lesbians are men haters" thing, and we all know what kind of bullshit that is.

It really was a gross statement to make.

Andrew,i mean no disrespect,but ur statement of "single women who dislike men" is way off base and out of line. Altho it was a 7/5 split(if i recall correctly) i know of at least 2 female jurors were married. As for George....he made himself look untrusting..the way he went around answering instead of directly,or getting into a pissing match with Baez


Thank you for this. It's really a perfect response to a statement that "throws you for a loop".

Huh? ...........

A reply like this isn't helpful. It doesn't do anything to further the conversation in a constructive manner, and it can be read as insulting too.

Can you explain how single mothers = women who dislike men? I find this really offensive as a single mother.

Again, this is a great way to respond to what was written. Ask for clarification. We can say things are offensive without tearing down the person who posted the statement.


Everyone has the right to their own opinion. That is why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.


This isn't helpful either.

Yes we all have a right to our opinions but no right to be offensive.

Yes.

Andrew

I have ALWAYS tried to understand your reasonings and posts when a lot of people jump to the wrong conclusion,or flat out attack you,but your last post was totally a "fuck you" in my eyes to all of "US" single moms...and to me personally because i am the SINGLE mother of a MALE child.


You are right everyone is entitled to their own opinion...i guess kinda like everyone has the right to be an asshole!

scoote, I was just loving this response......until that last little bit. While one can argue you didn't flat out call Andrew an asshole, one can also argue that it sure seems that way.

I understand the feelings involved here, but I believe we can always do better (and you initially did) than resorting to name-calling. Once we go down that road, the person whom we most want to hear us is no longer listening.


Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was only stating my own personal opinion. I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion. This evening my neighbors and I were chatting about this case over dinner, and everyone agreed with my opinion. I am really surprised that folks here were offended because when chatting about this, some of the neighbors were single mothers.

I am now leaving this thread.

Andrew


Andrew, I think it's wonderful that you returned to apologize and to also explain why you felt safe in sharing your opinion (since it had been reinforced by your friends at home). Thank you for that.

Try to avoid the leaving announcement though. I don't believe anyone here wanted you to leave because you said that. I think they wanted you to understand why it was so offensive to them.

Excuse me?

I know I'm not the first one verbalizing this, but this statement is offensive.

There are an awful lot of us who are single mothers....and I would venture to guess it has no impact on our opinions about men.

As a matter of fact, both my partner and I are the single mothers of boys. Are you trying to tell us we dislike men? And, if so, when are we supposed to suddenly start disliking our sons?

You're calling this an "opinion" - which it is....but it's the same kind of opinion that leads to racism, sexism, sizism, ageism and all of the crap we're all supposedly working hard to rid ourselves of.

It's good to share personal stories as to why that statement was hurtful/offensive to you.......gives the poster another way of looking at things.

As I was working on this post I kept thinking to myself, "I hope no one sees this as condescending." I give you my word there is nothing uppity or all-knowing about sharing out this way.

It really is our hope that members here will be able to have hard discussions with one another without always resorting to the "report" button. If we are able to do that then that means we have said difficult things to one another and we have LISTENED to things that might be hurtful without resorting to name-calling, without feeling stepped to, without feeling personally attacked, etc...

A lot of this shit isn't easy, and it's rarely easy to put personal feelings aside when interacting with another member........and it seems damn near impossible to just ignore the posts of people we don't care for! ;) But that *is* what we're working toward.

We've come a long friggin' way, and the mod/admin team has seen a drop in reports because so many of you are really thinking about what you've written down before you hit the SUBMIT REPLY button. Thank you for that, by the way. :)

So let's get back on track here.

If you have any questions about this moderation, please contact one of us via PM so as not to further derail this very important discussion.

Thinker (moderator)

[NJFemmie]

and this is precisely the time that we ( generally/ collectively) need to contact our lawmakers/ representatives with the knowledge of the abused spouse type of scenario that Heart mentioned above.

We ( the people) have their attention, now it is up to us to make them aware of the potential dangers of the previously mentioned pitfalls of a "blanket law".

Conversations like the very one going on here, is what will help our representatives help our families. I do not see the action of the change.org petition initiator as negative or dangerous. I see it as an excellent opportunity for follow up from an informed public.

Agreed. It would be inevitable and completely necessary:

Rikki Klieman, a Los Angeles-based criminal defense lawyer and former prosecutor, said that while she supports the Anthony verdict, she also finds it reasonable in some cases to elevate misdemeanors, such as failure to notify, to felonies.

"But we have to have a debate about defining this," she said. "In some of the proposed laws I've seen, the times are very short. Yes, 31 days is too long, but I can think of many situations in which 48 hours would be too short. We can't put parents and caretakers in a situation that may not be their fault. We have to pay attention to reasonable complications and circumstances."


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/125199389.html


So far, the petition elicited over 600,000 signatures making it very clear that although the general public is outraged - something needs to be done. Every state that has adopted this is working on their own version of it - in attempt to keep it reasonable.

[cinderella]

Good point, Jo. And you are right, these things have to be very carefully thought out before they actually become law.

Petitions are important - it lets the government & judicial system know what the people are thinking/feeling. Our judicial system is not perfect - it has been created by imperfect human beings. But, as many commentators have said - our judicial system is not perfect by any means, but by comparison with other countries, it is the best in the world. I can't say that's completely valid - I only know about US law, and that barely - but in the UK, it is my understanding that one is considered guilty until proven innocent, where in the US, it's the opposite. However you slice it, for me personally, I'd rather deal with our imperfect system then any other country's.

I still think there is a need for such a law....it simply needs to be thought out and written carefully.

I don't think any of us need fear that a proposal is going to be lifted straight from Facebook or change.org and passed as law. It will be discussed, changed, and altered many times before anything is done.

I think petitions of this sort are valuable in that they tell our legislators that we see a gap in the law...and put them on course to addressing it.

[dreadgeek]

I see....so if other people back up my racist opinions and they happen to be POC, then it's okay for me to say it?

Don't ya know that all you need to not be a racist while espousing racist opinions is to have what June calls a BFTTR--Black Friend to the Rescue. We make it all okay. :)

This is, of course, a valuable service which I am willing to provide for a small, nominal monthly charge or even barter. For example, I'll be your Black Friend to the Rescue for, say, an iPad 2. :)


Cheers
Aj

[Toughy]

Our judicial system is not perfect - it has been created by imperfect human beings. But, as many commentators have said - our judicial system is not perfect by any means, but by comparison with other countries, it is the best in the world. I can't say that's completely valid - I only know about US law, and that barely - but in the UK, it is my understanding that one is considered guilty until proven innocent, where in the US, it's the opposite. However you slice it, for me personally, I'd rather deal with our imperfect system then any other country's

If you are comparing our system to dictatorships and some 3rd world countries, yes ours is better. Our law is based on English common law (which is England/UK) which goes back to the late 1700's and maybe even the Magna Carta for trial by jury.

As to the UK.......in criminal cases the burden of proof is on the prosecution just like in the US.

I lived in New Zealand for a year and their judicial system is just as good as ours. Actually I was far less suspicious of the po po (police) when I lived there.....they did not come armed and they knock politely on the door instead of banging on the door with a flashlight. They didn't try to get in the house and were very apologetic for waking me up at midnight. The guy they were looking for did not live at that address any longer.

This idea of US exceptionalism.........we are the best, have the best, work the hardest, have the best system of governing, etc......makes me bonkers. Plus it's insulting to the rest of the world that operate as democracies. As near as I can tell a number of those democracies work better than ours depending on what indicators you look at. None of them have the death penalty and they all have universal health care for everyone paid for by everyone's tax dollars.

[dreadgeek]

This idea of US exceptionalism.........we are the best, have the best, work the hardest, have the best system of governing, etc......makes me bonkers. Plus it's insulting to the rest of the world that operate as democracies. As near as I can tell a number of those democracies work better than ours depending on what indicators you look at. None of them have the death penalty and they all have universal health care for everyone paid for by everyone's tax dollars.

This might be an interesting topic to discuss in depth someplace else but I did want to say this briefly in echo of what you are saying. It is instructive to note that the *newer* democracies (i.e. the ones that came about after WW II in the wake of dismantling of the English, French and Dutch colonies) have *not* modeled their constitutions on the US Constitution. Rather, they have used the constitutions of other Western democratic republics. In fact, even Japan whose post-WW II constitution was all but written by MacArthur uses a parliamentary system. Other than that and excluding Iraq (for obvious reasons)not a single nation that became a democracy in the 20th century has a constitution modeled on the US Constitution. Not a one. The last nation to do so was the Philippines and that was in 1899 when they became a colony of the US in all but name. Before that it was Liberia in 1847.

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

More than 800,000 people have now signed the Change.org petition for Caylee's Law, as legislators in at least 16 states have pledged to introduce their own Caylee's Laws.

Other states where lawmakers are considering such measures include Georgia (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/georgia.htm#r_src=ramp), Kansas, Louisiana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas and West Virginia, according to news reports.

Florida's proposal would make it a felony for a parent or other caregiver to not report a child under the age of 12 missing after 48 hours. It also makes it a felony to not report a child's death or "location of a child's corpse" to police within two hours of the death.
Had Florida's measure been in place and Anthony been convicted, she could have faced another 15 years behind bars.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/09/states-weigh-caylees-law-in-verdict-aftermath/#ixzz1RcBHZx24

[Heart]

NYT editorial - it's not the justice system that's at fault, it's the opportunism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/opinion/sunday/10bruni.html?_r=1

[Glenn]

You can also blame bad detective and forensic work. But, yes, the world got high and the media got rich on this indignation rush. I also agree that the feeding frenzy crushed the case causing the jurors to second guess themselves.

[Sachita]

I know about the case and occasionally read updates. There is no defense against insanity within a psychopath. I rank these cockroaches, sub-humans in the same category as pedophiles. They simply don't care about the repercussions of their actions as long as their selfish needs are met.

Of course she did it and the reasons why we might not ever know. The biggest consolation is that she will be treated as a murderer the rest of her life. Sure, she may get a book deal or movie, but that is short lived and money will never ever help her escape the stigma she'll always wear. She can get plastic surgery, change her name, etc but in this case I hope she is never allowed to have any more children.

The thing I don't get is the clorofill (sp) and why she would use this to sedate her daughter when there are so many drugs on the market. This part leaves me wondering what her real intentions were.

[Glenn]

[QUOTE=Sachita;

The thing I don't get is the clorofill (sp) and why she would use this to sedate her daughter when there are so many drugs on the market. This part leaves me wondering what her real intentions were.[/QUOTE]

Because she thought looking up recipes for chloroform on the internet was easier and less noticeable. She researched the internet how to use chloroform. Began using it to put her daughter to sleep while she partied. One night, she could'nt wake her up and freaked, so she placed her in a garbage bag, placed a heart-shaped sticker on her mouth, and sealed it with duct tape. She then tossed her in a swamp. 30 days later,she reported her missing, and gave a fake story about a Hispanic nanny. At the very least she should have been convicted of manslaughter.

[BullDog]

I agree that the feeding frenzy has been disgusting, but there is a huge gap in the law if someone can not report a death and then only get sentenced to 4 years in jail. I did not follow the case very closely but from what I have read the decomposition of the body made it almost impossible to determine the cause of the child's death. There was major obstruction of justice.

[girl_dee]

I have heard that the detectives and police today are perplexed about crime shows like CSI. Juries and citizens in general expect what they see on TV to actually happen. DNA results within a moment, crime scenes which are never tainted in any way shape or form, and larger than life (and very hot) heroes who can bring the guilty party to trial without even the smallest doubt for the jury to ponder over.

That is why I still say that people have different views on what *reasonable doubt* means. Although in this case, I struggle to see what that reasonable doubt was, but I trust that the jury found something to keep them from using it.

[Beasley67]

I have never been able to reconcile the Prosecution's theory that Caylee was drugged and then suffocated with duct tape. It doesn't seem plausible. I also have wondered how much Ray Kronk (the meter reader guy) actually (and truthfully) disturbed the crime scene (or recovery site). His story changed too many times. I don't believe he did what the Defense team said. However, I don't believe he was truthful. Therefore, that put doubt in my mind about the condition of the remains.
Uglyboi and I have argued over this case from opening to closing arguments. I guess I have been looking at the facts or lack thereof. I understand that one can use logic to come to a conclusion of guilt. However, I don't think the Prosecution proved she MURDERED her child. I do believe that they proved she was present and in some way responsible for her death (through neglect or abuse). Uglyboi, however, is absolutely convinced of her guilt. UB also constantly reminds me of how Scott Peterson was convicted and sitting on death row with less physical evidence.
I just try to remind UB that 12 individuals came to the same conclusion. Then I remind UB that it is difficult to get 12 people to agree on a restaurant to eat at, let alone a verdict.

[InsatiableHeart]

I do not understand how they did not find her guilty of aggravated child abuse. She was responsible for that baby and the fact that she is now dead is at the least her fault. She did not report the child missing, did not tell the truth about where she was when she did mention her and then lied about talking with her on the phone when she was already dead.
I have no right to judge but, she will face her maker one day and she or whomever hurt that baby will have to answer then. I can only pray there really is a special place for people like that.

[Toughy]

I don't believe she was charged with aggravated child abuse. I could well be wrong.

[AtLast]

I don't believe she was charged with aggravated child abuse. I could well be wrong.

No she wasn't and there was no proof (any history of child protective services intervention or calls to police) of her being an abusive parent. her own parents did not make any statements of her being abusive or neglectful (of course, they practically raised this little girl). No friends or boyfriends, neighbors, etc. were on the stand that witnessed any abuse.

Sometimes with cases as horrific as this one and as widely publicized and scruitinized, based on circumstantial evidence without any DNA or some other forensic "silver bullet," really do end up with the "court of public opinion" over shadowing the lack of conclusive evidence.

I hate it that this obviously disturbed and dysfunctional young woman will be out in society. Personally, I think she either caused an accidental death or otherwise- simply an act of neglecting just how easily a little kid can drown or die of things like being left in a closed up car. Think of parents that have left kids or babies in cars for 10 minutes and caused their death or the child being abducted.

I wonder too if the state didn't blow it by insisting on a 1st degree murder death penalty jury. Jurers selected as such can be much harder to convince in a circumstantial case. They were chosen because they will impose death.

I just feel like there were many variables as to why she was found not guilty. She certainly isn't innocent of either wrong or neglectful behavior, however.

[JustJo]

I don't believe she was charged with aggravated child abuse. I could well be wrong.

She was charged with it, but not convicted.

[UofMfan]

I am posting this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/caylees-law-casey-anthony-_n_893953.html)great article here.

I know that it doesn't conform to the way the majority of people feel, including some of my friends, who in FB who are passing this petition around.

Then again, I am not a conformist, or one to have to go with the popular belief, in fact I am quite comfortable in my beliefs, no matter how different they are from the "majority". I usually feel most comfortable dealing with reason and logic than dealing with emotionally charged actions/reactions.

My friends respect me for that, and I respect them for their beliefs.

I hope time is taken to read the article. I particularly liked the following snippets:

Within minutes of the Casey Anthony verdict, much of America devolved into the mass media equivalent of a mob bearing torches and pitchforks. Twitter lit up with calls for vigilante justice, and proposals that we revoke the Fifth Amendment's protection against double jeopardy (or at least that we revoke it for Casey Anthony). Nancy Grace nearly spit fire, proclaiming, "The devil is dancing tonight." Conservative syndicated columnist Ben Shapiro wants to do away with juries altogether.

Laws named after crime victims and dead people are usually a bad idea. They play more to emotion than reason. But they're disturbingly predictable, especially when they come after the death of a child. So it's really no surprise that activist Michelle Crowder is now pushing "Caylee's Law," a proposed federal bill that would charge parents with a felony if they fail to report a missing child within 24 hours, or if they fail to report the death of a child within an hour. What's surprising is just how quickly the Change.org petition for Caylee's Law has gone viral. As of this writing it has more than 700,000 signatures, and is now the most successful campaign in the site's history. For reasons of constitutionality and practicality, it seems unlikely that Caylee's Law will ever be realized at the federal level. But according to the AP, at least sixteen state legislatures are now considering some version law. That's troubling.

This is a bad way to make public policy. In an interview with CNN, Crowder concedes that she didn't consult with a single law enforcement official before coming up with her 24-hour and 1-hour limits. This raises some questions. How did she come up with those cutoffs? Did she consult with any grief counselors to see if there may be innocuous reasons why an innocent person who just witnessed a child's death might not immediately report it, such as shock, passing out, or some other sort of mental breakdown? Did she consult with a forensic pathologist to see if it's even possible to pin down the time of death with the sort of precision you'd need to make Caylee's Law enforceable? Have any of the lawmakers who have proposed or are planning to propose this law actually consulted with anyone with some knowledge of these issues?

While Caylee's Law could quite conceivably ensnare innocent grieving parents, it seems unlikely that it will prevent a single child's death. Consider: Is a father who is depraved enough to kill his own son really going to be dissuaded by a law that says he must notify the authorities of his son's death within an hour of having killed him? He's already committing murder. The law isn't likely to affect a parent who kills a child in a fit of anger or rage, either. By definition, crimes of passion are perpetrated in the heat of the moment, with little consideration of consequences.

[Heart]

By and large, I agree.

I just wish people would stop and think for a minute what it could mean to THEM to be a parent wrongly accused. Parents have brought their children to emergency rooms only to be reported and arrested for abuse and neglect because a doctor or nurse misinterpreted/misdiagnosed. I'm no fan of our criminal justice system or of juries, given that they tend to be as racist and sexist as the society they reflect, BUT I wouldn't want to be tried in the court of public opinion either.

Heart

[girl_dee]

I am posting this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/caylees-law-casey-anthony-_n_893953.html)great article here.

I know that it doesn't conform to the way the majority of people feel, including some of my friends, who in FB who are passing this petition around.

Then again, I am not a conformist, or one to have to go with the popular belief, in fact I am quite comfortable in my beliefs, no matter how different they are from the "majority". I usually feel most comfortable dealing with reason and logic than dealing with emotionally charged actions/reactions.

My friends respect me for that, and I respect them for their beliefs.

I hope time is taken to read the article. I particularly liked the following snippets:

Within minutes of the Casey Anthony verdict, much of America devolved into the mass media equivalent of a mob bearing torches and pitchforks. Twitter lit up with calls for vigilante justice, and proposals that we revoke the Fifth Amendment's protection against double jeopardy (or at least that we revoke it for Casey Anthony). Nancy Grace nearly spit fire, proclaiming, "The devil is dancing tonight." Conservative syndicated columnist Ben Shapiro wants to do away with juries altogether.

Laws named after crime victims and dead people are usually a bad idea. They play more to emotion than reason. But they're disturbingly predictable, especially when they come after the death of a child. So it's really no surprise that activist Michelle Crowder is now pushing "Caylee's Law," a proposed federal bill that would charge parents with a felony if they fail to report a missing child within 24 hours, or if they fail to report the death of a child within an hour. What's surprising is just how quickly the Change.org petition for Caylee's Law has gone viral. As of this writing it has more than 700,000 signatures, and is now the most successful campaign in the site's history. For reasons of constitutionality and practicality, it seems unlikely that Caylee's Law will ever be realized at the federal level. But according to the AP, at least sixteen state legislatures are now considering some version law. That's troubling.

This is a bad way to make public policy. In an interview with CNN, Crowder concedes that she didn't consult with a single law enforcement official before coming up with her 24-hour and 1-hour limits. This raises some questions. How did she come up with those cutoffs? Did she consult with any grief counselors to see if there may be innocuous reasons why an innocent person who just witnessed a child's death might not immediately report it, such as shock, passing out, or some other sort of mental breakdown? Did she consult with a forensic pathologist to see if it's even possible to pin down the time of death with the sort of precision you'd need to make Caylee's Law enforceable? Have any of the lawmakers who have proposed or are planning to propose this law actually consulted with anyone with some knowledge of these issues?

While Caylee's Law could quite conceivably ensnare innocent grieving parents, it seems unlikely that it will prevent a single child's death. Consider: Is a father who is depraved enough to kill his own son really going to be dissuaded by a law that says he must notify the authorities of his son's death within an hour of having killed him? He's already committing murder. The law isn't likely to affect a parent who kills a child in a fit of anger or rage, either. By definition, crimes of passion are perpetrated in the heat of the moment, with little consideration of consequences.

I bolded the part I mostly agree with. I also feel if a toddler is missing within ONE hour the police should be called.. they could have left the state within a few....

[NJFemmie]

No, anyone who is going to kill their child would more than likely not report it. It isn't made for the majority of people in the world, and it was duly stated in that way -- but for the smaller percentage that it would more than likely affect - it acts as a deterrent - and perhaps an added sentence. It was already stated that if this law was to be in effect while Casey Anthony was on trial - she would have been sentenced 15 years in prison (at the very least) for not reporting her child missing.

Perhaps there is little consideration for the consequences of killing anyone in the heat of a moment - but it certainly doesn't justify the action. There should always be a consequence outside of self defense.

Not every state agrees with the time limitations - which is why they are creating their own version of the law.

[girl_dee]

I do agree NJFemmie that anything is better than nothing, and this was a highly emotional case, so something HAD to be done.

It's better than nothing, at least this bitch would be in jail for SOMETHING right now.

Sometimes you have to take what you can get, until things can get better. Bad breath is better than no breath at all.....

[NJFemmie]

Sometimes you have to take what you can get, until things can get better. Bad breath is better than no breath at all.....

LOL ... I'll have to remember that .... ;)

[UofMfan]

Yes, the nice people of Arizona thought it a good idea and better than nothing to pass a law that would use racial profiling to get rid of undocumented immigrants. A deterrent. To them, it was a good law.

The death penalty, another deterrent, has been proven to be ineffective.

The 1996 immigration and terrorist law was supposed to deter terrorism. Then we had 9/11.

What these laws have done is tear families apart and executed hundreds of innocent people.

Patriot Act, that seemed like a good idea too.

I could go on and on.

[Gentle Tiger]

Yes, the nice people of Arizona thought it a good idea and better than nothing to pass a law that would use racial profiling to get rid of undocumented immigrants. A deterrent. To them, it was a good law.

The death penalty, another deterrent, has been proven to be ineffective.

The 1996 immigration and terrorist law was supposed to deter terrorism. Then we had 9/11.

What these laws have done is tear families apart and executed hundreds of innocent people.

Patriot Act, that seemed like a good idea too.

I could go on and on.

Why do you insist UoffactsMfan on confusing the issue(s) with facts? Why, I ask you? Next thing you know brains will be exploding from people having independent thoughts for crying out loud!

[girl_dee]

I am easily confused by facts, it's true!

[NJFemmie]

One day, when the world becomes perfect ....

If nothing is done, there is an outrage. When something is proposed, there is an outrage.

I wish to be beamed up now, Scotty.

[Corkey]

I have no problem with a well thought out Constitutionally agreeable law that would protect kids from their parents. I sure don't want one that is a knee jerk reaction to a horrifying emotional crime/accident. Laws that effect the parent who by accident in an hour looses track of their kid could potentially go to jail for 15 years. Bit harsh don't you think?

[NJFemmie]

From what I have read, the sixteen states that has so far considered this law has been amending and appending to consider certain circumstances and scenarios. They are considering the fact that there could be circumstances that would delay or prevent someone from reporting a child missing .... and I agree with that. It would be hopeful that the law would know the considerable difference between a mother that has sincerely lost track of her child and someone who may be involved in foul play. (But we all know how "hope" plays in the matter....)

[Corkey]

We do, and that is what scares the crap out of me.

[NJFemmie]

I am sure you have seen your fair share.

[princessbelle]

It is always good to keep an open mind about anything IMO.

It is always a good thing to evaluate and try and be logical before coming to advanced conclusions.

I pray before this bill is made into a law it is thought through entirely from all aspects and for ALL people to be considered.

I appreciate all sides, learning is a beautiful thing.

[AtLast]

Yes, the nice people of Arizona thought it a good idea and better than nothing to pass a law that would use racial profiling to get rid of undocumented immigrants. A deterrent. To them, it was a good law.

The death penalty, another deterrent, has been proven to be ineffective.

The 1996 immigration and terrorist law was supposed to deter terrorism. Then we had 9/11.

What these laws have done is tear families apart and executed hundreds of innocent people.

Patriot Act, that seemed like a good idea too.

I could go on and on.

Yes- take a look at these and think! I would add the Enemy Alien Acts during WWII. Corkey has a good point about "knee-jerk" legislation. I know cases like this one (and how about Jaycee Dugard's- her abuser should never have neen out on parole in the first place) are just damn hard to deal with. We all want justice- or for kids to be safe in a world in which so many are not. it hurts- but the problems behind why these things go on need very different kinds of solutions- ones that the US has never actually fully funded in any of our institutions.

By and large, I agree.

I just wish people would stop and think for a minute what it could mean to THEM to be a parent wrongly accused. Parents have brought their children to emergency rooms only to be reported and arrested for abuse and neglect because a doctor or nurse misinterpreted/misdiagnosed. I'm no fan of our criminal justice system or of juries, given that they tend to be as racist and sexist as the society they reflect, BUT I wouldn't want to be tried in the court of public opinion either.

Heart

Me either! And I don't think many people realize just how many parents are wrongly accused due to exactly the variables you bring up. I want the truely guilty stand trial and found guilty and serve time. But I also want a fair and unbiased criminal justice system along with fully funded and effective social services and programs that could prevent so many of these crimes in the first place. With the sociopath or psychopath, there is a difference they need to be kept away from society, perod. And our parole systems fail us terribly with these criminals.

Thinking of how important things like schools for pregnant teens and mothers with parenting classes are so impportant. And day care at community colleges with parenting classes for credit. Just some things running through my head.

I have no problem with a well thought out Constitutionally agreeable law that would protect kids from their parents. I sure don't want one that is a knee jerk reaction to a horrifying emotional crime/accident. Laws that effect the parent who by accident in an hour looses track of their kid could potentially go to jail for 15 years. Bit harsh don't you think?

Exactly! Sometimes these laws that spring from these situations are idiotic. Well thought out is what I vote for, too!

[Heart]

From what I have read, the sixteen states that has so far considered this law has been amending and appending to consider certain circumstances and scenarios. They are considering the fact that there could be circumstances that would delay or prevent someone from reporting a child missing .... and I agree with that. It would be hopeful that the law would know the considerable difference between a mother that has sincerely lost track of her child and someone who may be involved in foul play. (But we all know how "hope" plays in the matter....)

Interesting... your reference to mothers... Although fathers and father-figures are ten times more likely to neglect, abuse, or kill a child in their care, all this national outrage and rush to pass bills comes on the heels of a mother's crime....

[Jess]

Interesting... your reference to mothers... Although fathers and father-figures are ten times more likely to neglect, abuse, or kill a child in their care, all this national outrage and rush to pass bills comes on the heels of a mother's crime....


I think that this ( the red highlighted part) is precisely why there is such a sense of moral outrage when crimes are ( allegedly) perpetrated by mothers. It is such a shock that it quakes our very being. We ( as a global community) have gotten "used to" for lack of a better or more politically correct phrase, Men abusing, wounding, killing. We are still aghast when we hear of women serial killers or baby killers ( even in the light of postpartum depression findings).

I hate the thought of innocent people being charged for crimes that may have been beyond their control. I also hate the loopholes that allow the guilty to walk away from personal guilt on whatever level they created a scenario of endangerment to a child.

This case is but one. One that happened to get national attention. I have no doubt that on this planet full of people similar offenses happen daily.

The petition mentioned here, again, is but a stepping off point. I for one, have written my legislators to ask that more considerations be made before a law of this nature be passed, for the protection of innocent parents/ guardians. I do not disagree, however, with the notion of a reasonable amount of time for notification of a missing or possibly endangered child and a law being passed that addresses that. I do not disagree with a law that states a reasonable amount of time to notify authorities in the case of discovering a child has died or is in immediate physical distress.

I do not know what a reasonable amount of time is, so I leave that part of lawmaking to the experts. Experts like the one from the Huff Post article, who is writing a book about the Casey/ Caylee case, whom will profit from this case, and might be able to help determine exactly what a reasonable amount of time would be for a parent to notify authorities in the case of discovering a child dead or missing. I do find it interesting when the experts ( who are writing a book about the subject) put forth the notion that the science isn't that exact, yet do not give an estimate of what "might" be reasonable. Guess we have to buy the book to find out.

Meting out justice is as much an art as a science. Our laws will evolve as our ability to harm one another does. Our laws will continue to be written by the people we place in office. Their ability to write and enforce laws will always rely upon our compliance ( through approval or inaction) or will be influenced by our constant and consistent voice for justice.

[NJFemmie]

Interesting... your reference to mothers... Although fathers and father-figures are ten times more likely to neglect, abuse, or kill a child in their care, all this national outrage and rush to pass bills comes on the heels of a mother's crime....

I stand corrected for not using the words parent, guardian and/or custodian. Perhaps the present (Casey Anthony) situation remained in my mindset.

Diane Down, Andrea Yates, Susan Smith, China Arnold, Michelle Kehoe.
Men who murder their children or families, interestingly and sadly enough, are not that "infamous". Media does seem to highlight mothers guilty of this crime.

[Merlin]

I caught the end of it on CNN news via the web.
Not knowing any of the facts but by the small bit I have seen I reckon she did it ..

It hasn't been reported in the uk at all .. But it does seem it has all been played out by the media.

[Corkey]

This is what I mean
Not having all the facts and watching the pundants talk and making a judgement on that. You don't have the facts and she was found not guilty.