OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Toughy]

One can always hope the police everywhere will learn from the Albany PD and follow suit....after all the police are in the 99%.

They damn sure don't need riot gear, 18" batons, tear gas and shotgun fired bean bags to protect and serve the public.

[Cin]

Drew:

My reasons for being uncharacteristically quiet on this thread are covered pretty well in this post at HuffPo by the law professor Lawrence Lessig:

[begin his words]
Here's the fact about America: It takes an insanely large majority to make any fundamental change. You want Citizens United reversed, it is going to take 75% of states to do it. You want public funding of public elections? It's going to take 67 Senators to get it. You want to end the corruption that makes it impossible to get any of the things liberals push? It's going to take a broad based movement that cuts across factions, whether right (as in correct) or Right (as in not Left).

It's great to rally the 99%. It is a relief to have such a clear and powerful slogan. But explain this, because I'm a lawyer, and not so great with numbers: Gallup's latest poll finds 41% of Americans who call themselves "conservative." 36% call themselves "moderate." Liberals account for 21%. In a different poll, Gallup finds 30% of Americans who "support" the Tea Party.

So who exactly are we not allowed to work with, Dave? 30% of America? 41% of America? All but 21% of America? And when you exclude 30%, or 41%, or 79% of Americans, how exactly are you left with 99%?

Talk about wanting to have it "both ways"! How can you claim to speak for 99% but refuse to talk to 30%? (And just to be clear: the 30% of Americans who support the Tea Party are not the 1% "superrich." I checked. With a calculator.)

And finally as to one of the commentators on Dave's essay who finds me "poisonous," and said I said: "OWS needs to drop the 'We are the 99%' slogan because it might hurt the feelings of the rich." What I said was not that the movement should give up the slogan 99% because it offended. I said it should instead talk about the 99.95%. That's the percentage of Americans who did not max out in giving in the last Congressional election. That is the percentage that becomes invisible in the money-feeding-fest that is DC.

So if you really want to rally the 99%, you might begin by identifying those things that 99% might actually agree about. That the 30% of Americans who call themselves "supporters" of the Tea Party are racists is not a statement likely to garner the support of at least that 30%. (And again, as ABC found, it's not even true).

On the other hand, 99% of America should be perfectly willing to agree that a system in which the top 1% -- or better, .05% -- have more power to direct public policy than do the 99% or 99.95% is wrong. And must be changed. Before this nation can again call itself a democracy (for those on the Left) or a Republic (for those on the Right). This "Republic," by which the Framers meant a "representative democracy," by which they intended a body "dependent upon the People ALONE," is not.

That, too, must change. Meaning, in addition to all the things we Liberals want, we must change that as well. And my view is that if we changed that corruption first, we might actually find it a bit easier to get those other things too.

[end his words]
-----------------------

I am a Liberal but I'm a Liberal that does not believe I am living on 'occupied' land. I am living on land taken by conquest over a century ago but that cannot be changed and so to call America 'occupied' land is to make me a foreigner in my own country, the only country my family has known since at least the early 19th century. I've read a number of OWS statements that were decidedly anti-capitalist. Some of the stuff at People of Color Organize invokes the 'petty bourgeois' and speaks of destroying capitalism. This turns me off for two reasons.

As a college educated professional, I am the 'petty bourgeois' which has to be 'swept aside' in order for the poor and working-class to be free. Secondly, there is simply no way to have a *socialist* society without seriously restricting freedom and liberty. We can have social democracy but we cannot have socialism. I have also noted that skeptical or dissenting voices are written off not caring or being fine with the ways things are. I think that people of goodwill can disagree with certain rhetorical flourishes (presuming that the people using that rhetoric mean it) while still agreeing that the system is skewed toward the rich and that this creates injustice which leads to instability.

I don't want to create a socialist utopia because I know of no better way to create a dystopia than to try to create a utopia. I would argue that one of the causes of our current suffering is that the Right has been pursuing a libertarian utopia. I want to create a society where someone who is born into poverty can get an education, find themselves a job, work their way up a career ladder and perhaps retire as solidly middle-class. I want to *expand* the ranks of the 'petty bourgeois' not see them swept away.

Right now, I'm seeing the Left talk to the Left and only certain segments of the Left at that! I do not see anything that leads me to believe that people of the Right (of which I am not) are welcome nor have I heard or read anything here to make me believe that Liberals (as opposed to radicals) are at all welcome, that our voices would be heard, that our ideas would be given due consideration, or that our experiences would be considered at all worth listening to. I might be wrong but I've been reading this thread since the very beginning and I don't see a great deal that leads me to believe otherwise.

Lessig is right, we are the 99% is a great slogan. The problem is is that there isn't a concerted effort to bring most of that 99% into the fold.

Cheers
Aj

I doubt very much when people say they are the 99% that they believe they are actually the whole 99% but rather just a part. The part that is energized and seeking a way to wake up the rest of the 99%. I also haven’t heard there are people who the movement will not work with. But perhaps there are. What do I know. However, being a leaderless movement, or a movement in which everyone can lead, I can’t imagine one or two people can make a decision about who the movement can or cannot work with.

I think Dave Zirin is a bit of a self righteous prick and I think Lawrence Lessig is a bit of a dreamer. And I think Lessig has more of a problem with Zirin that he does with the Occupy movement itself. Especially given he spoke at Occupy Wall St and Occupy K St. Granted he does have a bit of a theme going –

“We should use the energy and anger of this extraordinary movement to find the common ground that would justify this revolution for all Americans, and not just us. And when we find that common ground, we should scream it, and yell it, and chant it, again, and again, and again.” Lawrence Lessig

Perhaps a themed Lessig is not exactly an over the top all out supporter, still, I can’t imagine any right minded person could really disagree with a theme of common ground that would justify this revolution for all Americans.

Well, maybe someone could disagree with his use of the word revolution. I think Mr. Lessig didn’t actually mean revolution. There is such a chasm between reform and revolution that a good many of the 99% would fall in trying to cross ideas from one side to the other.

Or maybe I am speaking for myself.

I know I stare at that chasm between reform and revolution and wonder. What side am I standing on? Although I seem able to make the leap back and forth it does leave me breathless. I have stood here or there it seems for as long as I can remember. But for some reason, at this particular time in history, I see something different. Another possibility.

But again I could be wrong. It might just be the same old. But I am a sucker for reform. And who wouldn’t be. The devil you know and all that. What could possibly be different with something new when it’s the same flawed human beings creating it. Why not fix what we have? But is that even possible?

Yet, I can’t help but hope.

Still, I have a hard time with movements and political parties. Historically political parties were often created or strengthened by siphoning off the revolutionary potential of various social movements from the streets to the voting booth. Political parties by their very nature acknowledge the authority of the state and the hierarchal structures of our society. Though they may seek to make changes to the aesthetics of our system, they do not challenge the system because they are very much a part of it. All they can do is treat the symptoms. They may spout rhetoric for the 99% but they represent the 1%.

So where do I stand. Reform or revolution. I guess I will just wait and see what transpires in the coming months and years. But in the mean time…

I don’t think Lessig’s idea of a united 99% is so much horseshit, as Zirin so foolishly claimed. I don’t know that the occupy movement will find allies in the tea party, but if they do that would be awesome. I do think they very well might find allies within the 99% who identify as republicans. And they will find them within the 99% who identify as democrats and independents and green and so on. I think most right-minded people see a big problem and get that there are bad times ahead for the 99%. I understand it will hit some of us harder than others. In the end though I’m not sure we will be able to tell the difference. The poor don’t have far to fall before they hit bottom, so maybe it won’t hurt so bad. Yet, the bottom is just that. The bottom. Squeezed dry, over and out. However, the poor don’t have much real opportunity to accumulate debt, the great equalizer. Debt will erase your class in a heartbeat. The rich don’t need debt and the poor can’t afford debt. Guess who that leaves?

The middle class or what is left of them, are likely to be crushed beneath the weight of debt. I think when you stumble and smash yourself on the rocks of austerity, it’s hard to tell the bottom from a rocky ledge only part way down. And I don’t know how much comfort there is in knowing you can still fall further.

As far as posting on a forum or talking to your peers or spreading your ideas, opinions and beliefs in any way possible, I say go for it. But the reality is that not everyone’s ideas, opinions, beliefs are equal. For example (and granted to save time I chose an easy one), some people believe evolution is not a proven fact but just a theory and they feel creationism is a valid theory as well and deserves equal time and should be taught in schools etc. Others understand that evolution is a proven theory given all the data available, it’s a fact and in order for it to stop being a fact someone would have to disprove it. These two beliefs are not equal. There is a truth here a right and a wrong. Evolution is a fact and a belief in a fact should not be made to share equal time with belief in a fallacy. There is not data or proof to support creationism. So while I understand and accept that some people believe in it, I don’t have to consider it as something that should have equal value. However, that doesn’t mean that when it comes to ideas and opinions based on knowledge and facts, and with reasons behind them I don't want to hear them unless they mirror mine. I don’t have to agree with everything everyone says. And I’m very capable of changing my mind when I hear a good reason to reconsider what I believe.

Everyone’s experiences are valuable.

[Cin]

Dean:

I get what you're saying and I'm wrestling with this myself because my wife and I are not buying on credit and we've basically decided that if we can't save up for it, we don't need it. On the other hand, certain industries--and here I'm thinking about the computer industry--is predicated on a certain amount of 'churn'. Let's say that people took your advice and stopped buying the latest computer. That means that Dell, Apple and HP won't need as many employees so they'll lay them off. That means that the software vendors won't need as many employees so they'll lay *them* off. If everyone closes up their pockets and buys only the necessities then I think the economy will get worse, not better. It may not be the way we want it to be but I fear that whether we would prefer it, this is the economy we have to start with and make changes to that system.

I would like to see more emphasis on thrift and delayed gratification on the consumer side and a return to slow-and-steady growth on the business side. I would like to see businesspeople once again use, as one metric of success, hiring people instead of it being seen as, at best, an inconvenience to have a larger payroll this year than last.

Cheers
Aj

The upper 10% of income earners have a much smaller debt burden relative to income and net worth. Those people should have ample spending power to help fuel an economic recovery.

The data in 2007 stipulated that low income families I made up 40% of the population and just 12% of consumption. Middle class, 50% of the population and 46% of the consumption. Wealthy 10% made up 42% of the consumption.

The figures might have change somewhat, but the reality is the rich can afford to consume enough to make up for the rest of us slowing down a bit considering what's been happening. Hell I bet they prefer to spend to help economic recovery more than they would like to pay more taxes. They could just take one for the team.

[Cin]

I hear alarm bells with people switching their banks on November 5th. When I think of masses of people withdrawing money from a bank, when you know they don't have the cash at hand to pay for it, it just reminds me of that Mary Poppins scene about the run on the bank. I am somewhat concerned that certain actions could plunge us into a (worse) depression and there might be a certain element of cutting-off-our-noses-to-spite-our-faces going on. The banks deserve it, but I do wonder what the long-term ramifications will be for people.

I was thinking since they had ample notice, perhaps they have already got some action going to protect themselves. Like derivatives where they bet they will suffer a loss on Nov 5th. You know how they love to gamble. Especially against themselves. That's how they make big profits. And then they can double dip and get a bailout.

[MsMerrick]

I have only heard generally about it, don't have specific knowledge ...
It will be covered tomorrow morning on WRRL with a commentator who has broadcast from OWS several times now, Mark Lewis...Worth listening to and yes you can catch the show streaming live...
But here you go:

http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Occupy-Albany-s-right-to-protest-2234390.phpttp://

That would be Mark RILEY .. Excellent commentator...
My brain.. is well... :seeingstars:

[Ebon]

She was at Oakland last night and was there when the police came in. Interesting interview.

Abf2wEcdSHU

[MsMerrick]

In Oakland last night, Scott Olsen, a former Marine, two-time Iraq war veteran, and member of Iraq Veterans Against the War, sustained a skull fracture after being shot in the head with a police projectile while peacefully participating in an Occupy Oakland.

Badly hurt
But the maybe even worse part, is that when people rushed to try and help the young man, lying badly wounded unable to move on the ground the police DELIBERATELY TOSS A FLASH BOMB INTO THE GROUP.
Oh yes, who's tactic is that?? Terrorist tactic? Wait until the medics rush in then throw a second bomb??
WTF is going on in this country..
The young man is in critical condition, with brain injuries.
have a link
Iraq Veterans Release (http://www.ivaw.org/blog/press-release-marine-veteran-critically-injured-occupy-oakland-march)

Sign some petitions, recall the Mayor...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Recall-Mayor-Jean-Quan-of-Oakland-CA/131515330285437?sk=wall


http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/s/OccupyOaklandPoliceBrutality
This is beyond disgusting....

[greeneyedgrrl]

footage from last nite at oo
Just Another Night in Oakland - OPD vs. OCCUPY - YouTube

[greeneyedgrrl]

RFT interview with Boots Riley at OO last nite https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=256246521092479

[greeneyedgrrl]

has anyone seen this ish?http://boingboing.net/2011/10/20/naomi-wolf-arrested-at-ows-event-for-violating-terms-of-an-imaginary-law.html

[Toughy]

has anyone seen this ish?http://boingboing.net/2011/10/20/naomi-wolf-arrested-at-ows-event-for-violating-terms-of-an-imaginary-law.html

old news from last week......

------------------
I was down at Occupy Oakland this evening.....came home before shit hits the fan and it will hit the fan around 10:00pm. The police had actually fenced off the grassy area where the camp was located. The rally was in front of City Hall with the fenced off area behind them. Well......of course the fence came down and was neatly stacked against buildings and on the grass....safety when the police come in with tear gas and flash grenades and rubber bullets (they say it's bean bags) was a concern for those taking down the fence.

I would guess the crowd size to be at least 1,000 folks by 8:00pm when I left with more coming in.

The word is that Occupy SF is being removed tonight and they were asking for non-violent support in the City.

And just in case you didn't know......there is an Iraq Marine veteran who is in critical condition in Highland Hospital (Oakland) with a traumatic head injury from a 'projectile' to the head.....

[greeneyedgrrl]

yes i am aware of what's happening with OO, i have a friend who is still down there. i saw the video of the marine, and photos, videos from my friend of the carnage the opd is wreaking on the people of oakland.. it's horrible. i'm praying people are safe tonight. unfortunately i am not as informed of what is going on with osf..(or ows for that matter) it's further away from home for me, but i am trying to stay abreast of what's happening.

[atomiczombie]

I am a Liberal but I'm a Liberal that does not believe I am living on 'occupied' land. I am living on land taken by conquest over a century ago but that cannot be changed and so to call America 'occupied' land is to make me a foreigner in my own country, the only country my family has known since at least the early 19th century. I've read a number of OWS statements that were decidedly anti-capitalist. Some of the stuff at People of Color Organize invokes the 'petty bourgeois' and speaks of destroying capitalism. This turns me off for two reasons.

As a college educated professional, I am the 'petty bourgeois' which has to be 'swept aside' in order for the poor and working-class to be free. Secondly, there is simply no way to have a *socialist* society without seriously restricting freedom and liberty. We can have social democracy but we cannot have socialism. I have also noted that skeptical or dissenting voices are written off not caring or being fine with the ways things are. I think that people of goodwill can disagree with certain rhetorical flourishes (presuming that the people using that rhetoric mean it) while still agreeing that the system is skewed toward the rich and that this creates injustice which leads to instability.

I don't want to create a socialist utopia because I know of no better way to create a dystopia than to try to create a utopia. I would argue that one of the causes of our current suffering is that the Right has been pursuing a libertarian utopia. I want to create a society where someone who is born into poverty can get an education, find themselves a job, work their way up a career ladder and perhaps retire as solidly middle-class. I want to *expand* the ranks of the 'petty bourgeois' not see them swept away.

Right now, I'm seeing the Left talk to the Left and only certain segments of the Left at that! I do not see anything that leads me to believe that people of the Right (of which I am not) are welcome nor have I heard or read anything here to make me believe that Liberals (as opposed to radicals) are at all welcome, that our voices would be heard, that our ideas would be given due consideration, or that our experiences would be considered at all worth listening to. I might be wrong but I've been reading this thread since the very beginning and I don't see a great deal that leads me to believe otherwise.

Lessig is right, we are the 99% is a great slogan. The problem is is that there isn't a concerted effort to bring most of that 99% into the fold.

Cheers
Aj

Aj, thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts. The strength of this movement is in the diversity of its participants.

I guess you and I must be reading different sources for information on the OWS movement. I haven't seen or heard or read anything saying that OWS is for socialism. From what I have seen and read, they do want significant reform but nothing about abolishing capitalism. And to suggest that they want to go to a system that restricts freedom and democracy seems antithetical to everything I am seeing.

There might be some people who do want a socialist utopia. Frankly, I don't have a clue what that would look like. I, personally, believe that we need some powerful reforms along the lines of the New Deal. Stronger anti-trust laws, a more progressive tax system, and things along those lines. These are the types of things that are coming out of the OWS working groups and voted on at the General Assemblies.

I think you will find a lot of helpful information about what is going on at the epicenter of the movement here:

http://the99delegation.forumotion.com/

http://www.nycga.net/category/assemblies/minutes-ga/

If you just read the minutes from the GA meetings you can see that what is going on is democracy in its purest form. They don't agree on taking any actions until a full consensus is reached. They have various working groups whose job it is to bring proposals to the GA meetings for everyone to vote on. If they don't get 100% consensus on a proposal, they will listen to concerns and go back and work on it and then bring it back and have another vote.

This is what is so great about the process: they are making every effort to give everyone who attends their meetings a voice! The only people I have seen being kicked out are the ones advocating violence. This is a leaderless movement because it is not about individual people. It is about all of us.

Aj, if you can, would you please provide some links to the sources you are reading which have led to your conclusion that some people aren't welcome at the OWS events or GA meetings so I can see what you are seeing? Thanks.

[atomiczombie]

I hear alarm bells with people switching their banks on November 5th. When I think of masses of people withdrawing money from a bank, when you know they don't have the cash at hand to pay for it, it just reminds me of that Mary Poppins scene about the run on the bank. I am somewhat concerned that certain actions could plunge us into a (worse) depression and there might be a certain element of cutting-off-our-noses-to-spite-our-faces going on. The banks deserve it, but I do wonder what the long-term ramifications will be for people.

Bank of America posted something like 6 or 8 billion dollars in profits last year. I think they will be ok.

[Nat]

Bank of America posted something like 6 or 8 billion dollars in profits last year. I think they will be ok.

I'm not so much worried about them as further destabilization of the economy.

[greeneyedgrrl]

eviction warning in sf right now... reports of bart being closed at several stops to prevent oo from assisting
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

[Nat]

I am part of the 99%. I hope this all brings about some change and unifies those of us who pay more taxes for less representation. I hope it helps people like my mother understand that we are owned by corporations and the Republicans are not our saviors.

With that said. Our "Occupy Portland Camp" smells like reefer and Patcchuli and seems to be made up of young white folks with enough middle class privilege that they can afford to camp out in the middle of the city.


I heart patchouli :P

[greeneyedgrrl]

apparently Quan helped plan the raid, but had NO idea it was gonna go down. ??
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/26/BAMD1LMMA0.DTL

[nowandthen]

4 favorite parts of tonight,1. Hanging with G 2.taking 14th and Broadway with music and dancing 3. All the folks parting to let an ambulance through and then re-taking the street 4. marching to the jail and have the folks in jail flick the lights and us cheering let them all out and them flickering the lights. pictures/video to follow in the AM, sweet dreams all:glasses:

[dreadgeek]

Certainly, I’m happy to provide sources always:

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/analysis/theory/ongoing-occupywallstreet-debate-contesting-petit-bourgeois-spaces/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PeopleOfColorOrganize+%28Peop le+Of+Color+Organize%21%29

Then there's been the various iterations and riffs on the use of the word 'occupy'

http://unsettlingamerica.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/decolonize-wall-street/

http://ignite-revolution.org/

I find quite a bit of the language in the above quite problematic and I think that to the degree that OWS adopts these ideas, that is the degree to which it is problematic. While I understand why consensus decision making seems wonderful, my own experience is that it is not so much democratic as it is a way for a small group of people to hold an agenda hostage. I need point out only what happened to Rep. John Lewis in Atlanta where he showed up in support, someone blocked consensus on his being able to speak which, as an aside, was when I started to think 'Oh no, not again'.

I want OWS to be successful. I want it to push the political class (or drag them kicking and screaming) to the table so that the long hard slog of rebuilding the middle class in this country can begin. But I'm a reformer not a revolutionary. I just don't trust revolutions because so few of them turn out well. I'd love to see us have a Constitutional convention with two goals:

1) A Constitutional amendment specifically defining a person in such a way that corporations are outside of the definition

2) A Constitutional amendment providing for the public financing of campaigns.

I think that those two things alone would go a very long way toward making the voices of the vast majority of people who aren't rich something that elected officials ignore to their singular peril. Right now, there's really no negative consequence to ignoring our voices that isn't outweighed by the consequences of ignoring their master's (read: the top 1%) voice and so they pay the piper that plays the tune. If we are the piper, they'll have to listen to us.

Cheers
Aj

Aj, thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts. The strength of this movement is in the diversity of its participants.

I guess you and I must be reading different sources for information on the OWS movement. I haven't seen or heard or read anything saying that OWS is for socialism. From what I have seen and read, they do want significant reform but nothing about abolishing capitalism. And to suggest that they want to go to a system that restricts freedom and democracy seems antithetical to everything I am seeing.

There might be some people who do want a socialist utopia. Frankly, I don't have a clue what that would look like. I, personally, believe that we need some powerful reforms along the lines of the New Deal. Stronger anti-trust laws, a more progressive tax system, and things along those lines. These are the types of things that are coming out of the OWS working groups and voted on at the General Assemblies.

I think you will find a lot of helpful information about what is going on at the epicenter of the movement here:

http://the99delegation.forumotion.com/

http://www.nycga.net/category/assemblies/minutes-ga/

If you just read the minutes from the GA meetings you can see that what is going on is democracy in its purest form. They don't agree on taking any actions until a full consensus is reached. They have various working groups whose job it is to bring proposals to the GA meetings for everyone to vote on. If they don't get 100% consensus on a proposal, they will listen to concerns and go back and work on it and then bring it back and have another vote.

This is what is so great about the process: they are making every effort to give everyone who attends their meetings a voice! The only people I have seen being kicked out are the ones advocating violence. This is a leaderless movement because it is not about individual people. It is about all of us.

Aj, if you can, would you please provide some links to the sources you are reading which have led to your conclusion that some people aren't welcome at the OWS events or GA meetings so I can see what you are seeing? Thanks.

[AtLast]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45057545/ns/us_news-life/

Oakland protesters hold late-night march after vet injured
Demonstration remains peaceful in contrast to violence the night before; former Marine in critical condition with skull fracture

[Toughy]

The police caused the violence on Tuesday........

No police on Wed night.....no violence.......

figure it out folks

[Ebon]

The police caused the violence on Tuesday........

No police on Wed night.....no violence.......

figure it out folks

It seems like a lot of people don't get this. They think that people were being violent so the police came. They don't realize that people were being peaceful until the police showed up and started pushing people around that were peacefully walking down the street.

[Cin]

I am a Liberal but I'm a Liberal that does not believe I am living on 'occupied' land. I am living on land taken by conquest over a century ago but that cannot be changed and so to call America 'occupied' land is to make me a foreigner in my own country, the only country my family has known since at least the early 19th century.

Whether I am living on occupied land or land taken in conquest over a century ago seems irrelevant to me. I understand that using the term occupied does imply the possibility of the occupation ending. This occupation will not end. Yet it doesn’t make me a foreigner in my own country nor am I concerned I will be evicted anytime soon if I say the land is occupied. It certainly was occupied although I think stolen a better description because that doesn’t imply there’s a snowball’s chance in hell of getting it back. I don’t think it is a problem to recognize and validate the issues and grievances of others. Sometimes people just like the truth to be recognized for what it is. They just want to hear the words.

As a college educated professional, I am the 'petty bourgeois' which has to be 'swept aside' in order for the poor and working-class to be free.


Is this truly what you believe? Because if it is, then conversely, you are saying the poor and the working class must remain shackled. They must live in poverty or remain overworked and underpaid in order for you to remain the petty bourgeois. I don’t agree that is true. I think there is plenty for everyone. No one needs to be swept aside. Only the 1% who hold hostage an obscenely large percentage of the wealth need concern themselves with having less.

Perhaps you are mean something along the lines of the poor and the working class should be given opportunities to become the bourgeois?

I've read a number of OWS statements that were decidedly anti-capitalist. Some of the stuff at People of Color Organize invokes the 'petty bourgeois' and speaks of destroying capitalism... there is simply no way to have a *socialist* society without seriously restricting freedom and liberty. We can have social democracy but we cannot have socialism.


Socialism doesn’t scare me. The idea of socialized medicine doesn’t fill me with dread. I don’t hold any particular reverence or loyalty toward capitalism as a stand alone economic system. I think at this point capitalism is failing most of us. Only that 1% really benefits. Many say it is because the type of capitalism we have now is crony capitalism. And that works for no-one but the power elite. Perhaps. I don’t know. I think I am open to ideas. I don’t know if any economic system in its purist sense will meet all our needs. Not that we are experiencing capitalism in its purist sense yet, but I certainly see a trend toward the privatization of just about everything and that scares me. I’m not a small government kind of person, nor am I an ideological communist. I like the middle. It seems the sanest way to go with most everything in life. I don’t like what capitalism has shown me so far. But I won’t shut my ears when someone talks about keeping it as a part of our economic system. I like the idea of a social democracy but I am open to new ideas. New combinations of things that might work. Perhaps there is nothing new left to be thought of when it comes to economic/political systems and systems of government. Perhaps it is more about getting the right formula, the right mix of systems, a dash of this and a bit of that.



I want OWS to be successful. I want it to push the political class (or drag them kicking and screaming) to the table so that the long hard slog of rebuilding the middle class in this country can begin. But I'm a reformer not a revolutionary. I just don't trust revolutions because so few of them turn out well. I'd love to see us have a Constitutional convention with two goals:

1) A Constitutional amendment specifically defining a person in such a way that corporations are outside of the definition

2) A Constitutional amendment providing for the public financing of campaigns.

I think that those two things alone would go a very long way toward making the voices of the vast majority of people who aren't rich something that elected officials ignore to their singular peril. Right now, there's really no negative consequence to ignoring our voices that isn't outweighed by the consequences of ignoring their master's (read: the top 1%) voice and so they pay the piper that plays the tune. If we are the piper, they'll have to listen to us.


I believe the first order of business is a redistribution of wealth. I think getting two constitutional amendments you mentioned finally ratified will be a good start. Diffusing the power of the financial sector through regulation is another good start and if the two amendments are ever ratified then there would be a chance to deregulate. It will be slow going because the power is not in the hands of the people. The 1% controls everything. The will try to crush us before we can ever effect any significant change. Either that or swallow us up somehow in the political process.

Revolution is an overthrow and thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed. I don’t think anyone is advocating that at this time. I have heard people call it a revolution, as in that quote by Lawrence Lessig, but anyone who understands revolution recognizes that this is a reform movement.

Even in the sources you provided I didn't see evidence that some people are not welcome at OWS or the GA meetings. I imagine some people may exclude themselves for various reasons, but the movement seems open enough. I personally think inclusion is extremely important if this movement is to have any measure of success.

Actually I advocate working toward a philosophical global unification regarding the interests of the poor and the working class. That would mean finding a way to work with people who hold vastly different and in some case opposing ideologies. I don't think it is impossible to unite very different people to work toward a common purpose. After all the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[persiphone]

I see your point about permits and I also want safety for all as well as sanitary conditions to exist at protests. Sometimes someone gets sick and needs an ambulance. There has to be a way for the ambulance to get to them and get them on their way to a hospital, for example.

And I don't see a problem with having demonstrators disperse for public works employees to do their clean up jobs. Parks are continually maintained and cleaned by these kinds of departments and power washing is used all of the time. Then, everyone can come back.

I don't agree with the camping out as it leads to many more sanitation problems. For everyone- and disease is spread this way. There are many people including homeless folks that do not have good healthcare (one of our complaints), have compromised immune systems or other chronic illness in which contracting stash or hepatitis is more likely, thus, potentially threatening the health of others. This just happens in large crowd situations no matter who the people gathering are.

In a socially democratic society, we care about the health and well being of others. So, in exercising our rights to protest for the "good of the common people," shouldn't we consider how to best control the spread of germs, etc.?

LOL, yes, I am a germ-phobe, although it comes naturally as a person with an audio-immune cluster that I know compromises me in these kinds of situations. I wash my hands a lot! Don't even think about eating off of my plate or sharing a beverage. And if someone is coughing or sneezing, I'm gone. It isn't just a common cold that I could get. And I am just one of millions of people in the US dealing with this. I will be a real mess if I have to evacuate to a dorm situation or tent city during an earthquake! Consider the fact that homeless people may very well have poor health and not be able to fight off a common cold or become very ill with a flu strain. They don't even get decent general medical care as it is and most that have mental illnesses are not on needed medications in any consistent manner. They are at high risk.

It looks like in Oakland, the demonstrators are free to come back to the park after it is cleaned. However, they will not be allowed to camp-out or demonstrate after dark. I agree with Aj on the whole occupied land thing and the fact that unless one is Native American, they don't really have a right to take over any public space.

Does anyone know if these are now common procedures that are being put in place in other cities in the US where there are OWS protests. Also, have there been more efforts get a balance between the demonstrators and the jobs public works employees need to do with maintaining a public park. Frankly, I don't see the need for violence on either side of this if cool heads prevail. There have to be common sense solutions to keeping this peaceful and safe so that the real points of this assembly is realized.

I was arrested more than once back in the 70's while protesting- and I usually caught a cold after protesting. It's kind of like going into a classroom with a bunch of little kids with runny noses. Back then I didn't have the same health concerns, however. I am still going to some of these, but I won't be setting up camp.


with the creation of superbugs via the current corporate oppression, i'd say you're kinda out of luck in the germaphobe thing. i'm sure it would be nice to have neat and clean protests that are shiny and germ and violence free, but that's just not how most (not all) change of this magnitude occurs. there is going to be violence, and germs, and differences of opinion, and a whole slew of other things to pick at and pick apart. hopefully the violence stays contained on the police side cuz that will just make people more involved. i would be worried when we hit the tipping point and the protestors become violent in response. i hope that doesn't happen.

i don't mind that it's messy. messy happens. i don't care about what the people look like or how old they are or if there is some trash or not or who has germs and who doesn't or if i smell incense. i don't give a shit. change needs to happen and i don't mind getting my hands dirty over it.

[Cin]

I agree with Aj on the whole occupied land thing and the fact that unless one is Native American, they don't really have a right to take over any public space.


I must have missed this argument. Why do you and Aj believe no one else has a right to take over any public space?

[persiphone]

I must have missed this argument. Why do you and Aj believe no one else has a right to take over any public space?



i think because some of the parks in question are privately owned

[Cin]

i think because some of the parks in question are privately owned

oh so they are saying it's okay to take over privately owned space? Because public space can't be taken over by them? Only Native Americans? Okay. I guess that makes sense.

[dreadgeek]

Whether I am living on occupied land or land taken in conquest over a century ago seems irrelevant to me. I understand that using the term occupied does imply the possibility of the occupation ending. This occupation will not end. Yet it doesn’t make me a foreigner in my own country nor am I concerned I will be evicted anytime soon if I say the land is occupied. It certainly was occupied although I think stolen a better description because that doesn’t imply there’s a snowball’s chance in hell of getting it back. I don’t think it is a problem to recognize and validate the issues and grievances of others. Sometimes people just like the truth to be recognized for what it is. They just want to hear the words.

It strikes me as a 'more radical than thou' pose. A piece of rhetorical radical chic that doesn't actually do anything, doesn't change anything and isn't really *meant* to change anything. It's more mantra than anything else. Sort of like when the Right talks about 'family values'. It's an empty phrase that I find annoying. If people *meant* it, if it were more than a pose, that would at least have the virtue of being interesting.


Is this truly what you believe? Because if it is, then conversely, you are saying the poor and the working class must remain shackled. They must live in poverty or remain overworked and underpaid in order for you to remain the petty bourgeois. I don’t agree that is true. I think there is plenty for everyone. No one needs to be swept aside. Only the 1% who hold hostage an obscenely large percentage of the wealth need concern themselves with having less.



I don't believe this. I think that people who talk about the 'petty bourgeois' *do* believe it. I think that the writer of the POC Organize blog post about the petit bourgeois absolutely believes it which is why they wrote it. I think that we can build a society where there is substantial upward mobility. Unlike the Right, I don't think we can or should indulge the fantasy that all of us will one day be millionaires; we won't. I do, however, think that we can expand the ranks of the 'petit bourgeois' so that a *lot* more people can be middle-class. I remember, dimly, an America where a guy with only a high school education could start working at a GM plant at 18 and by his thirties own a house. This wasn't a perfect America by any means but it was an America with a huge middle class. That is what I would like to see us return to. If you work, you make enough to live on. If you continue to work, you will continue to make more money. I think that this is an achievable goal and one that benefits everyone.


Perhaps you are mean something along the lines of the poor and the working class should be given opportunities to become the bourgeois?


Yes, precisely.



Socialism doesn’t scare me. The idea of socialized medicine doesn’t fill me with dread. I don’t hold any particular reverence or loyalty toward capitalism as a stand alone economic system. I think at this point capitalism is failing most of us. Only that 1% really benefits. Many say it is because the type of capitalism we have now is crony capitalism. And that works for no-one but the power elite. Perhaps. I don’t know. I think I am open to ideas. I don’t know if any economic system in its purist sense will meet all our needs. Not that we are experiencing capitalism in its purist sense yet, but I certainly see a trend toward the privatization of just about everything and that scares me. I’m not a small government kind of person, nor am I an ideological communist. I like the middle. It seems the sanest way to go with most everything in life. I don’t like what capitalism has shown me so far. But I won’t shut my ears when someone talks about keeping it as a part of our economic system. I like the idea of a social democracy but I am open to new ideas. New combinations of things that might work. Perhaps there is nothing new left to be thought of when it comes to economic/political systems and systems of government. Perhaps it is more about getting the right formula, the right mix of systems, a dash of this and a bit of that.

Socialized medicine doesn't scare me. But I do not see--because I have yet to see a single historical example of it--how one has a *socialist* economy (as opposed to a democratic socialist one) without having to have a huge, imposing and very powerful state to enforce it. I think that we should bite the bullet and do what every other industrialized nation has done and go to a single-payer health care system. I would *love* to see us do what most of the Western European nations do and provide free education through college for any citizen who passes the entrance exams. I would like to see us put in a *real* floor below which no citizen falls if they don't absolutely want to. I think we can do all of that without going the route of socialism.

I'm not in love with capitalism just as I'm not in love with democracy. I do not think capitalism is the best system for organizing economic activity, I think it is the least *bad* system provided that it is regulated and that the regulations are meaningfully enforced. I am particularly fond of the European social democracy model because it strikes me as hitting the optimum balance between allowing the market to do those things which markets do well (providing luxury goods and choices of goods and services) while taking out of the hands of the market social infrastructure that is necessary to maintain a stable society. The irony is that the Western European democracies adopted the Marshall plan and have thrived on an economic model we exported to Europe after the Second World War in order to provide a stable social base. It has worked remarkably well. I would like to see us eat our own dog food (as we say at my work) and actually use the model we exported to Europe here since we *know* it works. Does that mean Europe is a utopia? No. But Europe does not have the extreme income disparity or grinding poverty that America does. There are no Mississippi's in Germany or France or England.



Revolution is an overthrow and thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed. I don’t think anyone is advocating that at this time. I have heard people call it a revolution, as in that quote by Lawrence Lessig, but anyone who understands revolution recognizes that this is a reform movement.

I hope that it stays a reform movement. Twenty years ago, when I was a Trotskyist, we spoke of revolution quite a bit. Then I met someone who had actually fled to the US after a revolution in her home country and that really took the scales from my eyes.


Even in the sources you provided I didn't see evidence that some people are not welcome at OWS or the GA meetings. I imagine some people may exclude themselves for various reasons, but the movement seems open enough. I personally think inclusion is extremely important if this movement is to have any measure of success.

Oh, I'm sure that on paper everyone is welcome. That doesn't mean everyone is welcome. Just as several writers have written pieces saying that this or that language being used is off-putting for people of color, certain other language being used is off-putting for people of color who happen to also be middle-class and trying to expand that class instead of seeing it contract. I do think that the movement is going to have to bring in the broadest cross-section of the American public in order to succeed (or the powers-that-be are going to have to be grindingly stupid like they were in Oakland). My concern is that they won't.


Actually I advocate working toward a philosophical global unification regarding the interests of the poor and the working class. That would mean finding a way to work with people who hold vastly different and in some case opposing ideologies. I don't think it is impossible to unite very different people to work toward a common purpose. After all the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The other day I read something (I forget where) that has made me ponder whether or not we on the Left aren't hamstringing ourselves in some ways. Part of the problem I see us having in our nation is that, unlike a number of other nations I can name, the rich here do not feel any particular tie to the United States. German companies try to keep a certain percentage of jobs in Germany. Japanese companies behave the same way. As do the French and the British and the South Koreans and the Spanish and the Russians. Not the Americans. Now, is there anyone here who would say that Volkswagen, Audi, BMW or Mercedes-Benz aren't real companies? Would anyone say that they put out products no one wants or products that are inferior? Would anyone say that Sony or Toshiba aren't real companies? Does anyone think that the people who sit at the apex of any of the above aren't rich beyond the dreams of avarice?

Without diving into an orgy of protectionism I would like to see a bit more economic nationalism on the part of American corporations. I would like to see our tax code restructured in order to make it clear that we value job creation *here* not in Singapore. I'm sure the Singaporeans are a noble people with a distinguished history and given a choice between my next door neighbor getting a job building, say, solar panels in Portland and someone in Singapore getting that same job, for the same company, but being paid a fraction of the salary with the profits not being repatriated to the United States, I'll take my neighbor getting the job, thank you very much. I think we can restructure the business tax code to embody that ethic. Imagine, for instance, the definition of a US company (and thus domestic products) being something like this:

An American company is defined as any LLC or LLP or other chartered business which has its corporate headquarters in the United States of America and that employs 80% of its workforce domestically. There is a tax rate for American companies and then there's a tax rate for foreign companies. If My Widgets, Inc. moves its headquarters to the Cayman Islands because of the loose banking laws, they are no longer an American company. Their products are now imports not domestic products. They are taxed at the higher rate for foreign companies and their goods have whatever kind of import or excise taxes that foreign goods have. This would make the widgets from MWI far *less* competitive.

Now, has the government told the owners of MWI where they have to put their factory or their HQ? Nope. They are free to move their business anywhere they wish. They are also free to pay the consequences for doing so.

The Right loves to talk a lot about personal responsibility and 'moral hazard' but that is always and forever a one-way street. If we have long-term unemployment benefits that creates a moral hazard. If we have a welfare system at all that denies personal responsibility. But for some reason, the moment we are talking about businesses there's no more responsibility and there's no more moral hazard. Suddenly businesses will always do the right thing in all circumstances regardless of what their actions actually are. How do we know those are the right things, because businesses do them.

If personal responsibility is good enough to cudgel the high school dropout with then I think it's good enough to cudgel the MBA from the Wharton school who gets it into his head that it would be a great idea to buy up company X, strip it to the bone, move the HQ to someplace where they won't have to pay taxes, move whatever is left of the manufacturing operations to some other nation where they can pay workers $2 a week, and in the process completely obliterate the economy of an American city. If we can say that unemployment benefits should be limited lest they be abused, then we can equally say that the tax code shouldn't be an invitation to ship good, middle-class jobs overseas lest business people be tempted to do what we've told them, through the medium of our laws, is perfectly acceptable. I don't see how we can do that without appealing to a sense of 'you take care of your countrymen first' across the board.

Cheers
Aj

[Julie]

KQlU8ra_8OE

[dreadgeek]

I must have missed this argument. Why do you and Aj believe no one else has a right to take over any public space?

I never said that. I think that people DO have the right to take over ANY public space at any time of their choosing. That's what makes it public. I do *not* think people have a right to take over a private space. I would go further, I think we should use the idea of public space to our advantage.

One of the most expensive parts of a political campaign is getting air time. It costs a lot. Here's the thing, though, we *own* the air waves and we *own* the right-of-way that the cable companies use to lay fiber. That's ours. The satellites that are in orbit beaming CNN to you everyday was lifted with the heavy space-lift capacity of the United States. NASA put those satellites up there, not Ted Turner or Rupert Murdoch. So since the media companies have used public resources, I think they should pay it back in the following form. During an election cycle, as part of a condition of their license, all broadcast media is obliged to carry debates and campaign ads gratis. That turns down the volume for having to raise such god-awful amounts of money to get a television spot in the middle of prime time. Without our public right-of-way and heavy-lift capacity and the FCC regulating how powerful your broadcast tower can be so channel 3 can't just overwhelm channel 5 with a more powerful signal, none of the media companies would be profitable. So since we make it possible for them to be profitable, they should do something by way of saying 'thank you'. Carrying our elections for free is a great way to show gratitude.

Cheers
Aj

[Ebon]

KQlU8ra_8OE

The cops should really be on our side. I understand the higher rank officers that get the kickbacks from the people that we are fighting against but the guys on the ground really need to get their shit together. Also I wonder who the guys in suits were.

[Ebon]

Oh yeah and this is happening. Wallstreet gets funds to setup cameras to watch citizens in Manhattan. I believe half is tax funded the other half paid by Goldman Sachs.

9MNw5fBiKIg

Love TYT!

[dreadgeek]

We support the goals of the Occupy Wall Street movement: we have high levels of unemployment and we have high levels of foreclosure that makes Oakland part of the 99% too. We are a progressive city and tolerant of many opinions. We may not always agree, but we all have a right to be heard.

I want to thank everyone for the peaceful demonstration at Frank Ogawa Park tonight, and thank the city employees who worked hard to clean up the plaza so that all activities can continue including Occupy Wall Street. We have decided to have a minimal police presence at the plaza for the short term and build a community effort to improve communications and dialogue with the demonstrators.

99% of our officers stayed professional during difficult and dangerous circumstances as did some of the demonstrators who dissuaded other protestors from vandalizing downtown and for helping to keep the demonstrations peaceful. For the most part, demonstrations over the past two weeks have been peaceful. We hope they continue to be so.

I want to express our deepest concern for all of those who were injured last night, and we are committed to ensuring this does not happen again. Investigations of certain incidents are underway and I will personally monitor them.

We understand and recognize the impact this event has had on the community and acknowledge what has happened. We cannot change the past, but we are committed to doing better.

Most of us are part of the 99%, and understand the spirit of the Occupy Wall Street Movement. We are committed to honoring their free speech right.

Finally, we understand the demonstrators want to meet with me and Chief Jordan. We welcome open dialogue with representatives of Occupy Wall Street members, and we are willing to meet with them as soon as possible.


Wow.

[nowandthen]

The police caused the violence on Tuesday........

No police on Wed night.....no violence.......

figure it out folks

Actually, there were plenty of police they boxed us in as we marched around. they stayed on a one block away perimeter, and there was a 15 car 9 van caravan of police following the march staging and the moving and re-staging as we moved. It was a peaceful march and folks keep encouraging others to stay peaceful it was pretty cool. They closed Bart so folks could not go over to SF as some intended after our general assembly which voted for a general strike on Nov. 2 which was the first general strike vote since 1947. Anyway, I hope the mayor resigns.

[SoNotHer]

I heard through a friend that this was a mess.

Troublesome, to say the least.

KQlU8ra_8OE

[nowandthen]

One of the many things I noticed yesterday was the mix of folks and that those folks talked about poor folks, homeless folks, not just the middle class. For me, this fight is not about going back to what we had, it is going forward to something new. The middle class mostly white who are now losing a way of life many folks never had need to re-think how they want to change the system so that we all benefit, instead of supporting a herman cain kind of theory, your poor and homeless and it is your fault. :blink:


Barbara Lee our State Rep and a Mills Alum
I shared my outrage and grave concern about the police brutality in Oakland directly with the Mayor. My thoughts go out to the injured and especially Scott Olsen. I strongly support the occupy movement and continue to stand with the peaceful protesters in this struggle for economic justice and equality.

[nowandthen]

Cross=posted from Facebook: (Luz, Andrew, Andreana and I have submitted the following proposal to "Occupy Oakland." We will keep everyone updated on its status. It is based on the statement approved by Occupy Boston.)

RESOLUTION: Memorandum of Solidarity with Indigenous Peoples

WHEREAS, those participating in “Occupy Oakland” acknowledge that the United States of America is a colonial country, and that we are guests upon stolen indigenous land that has already been occupied for centuries, Oakland being the ancestral land of the Ohlone people; and


WHEREAS, members of the Indigenous Peoples continued to resist the violent oppression and exploitation of the colonizers since they first arrived on this continent, and as a result have a great amount of experience that could strengthen this movement; and


WHEREAS, after centuries of disregard for the welfare of future generations, and the consistent disrespect and exploitation of the Earth, we find ourselves on a polluted and disturbed planet, lacking the wisdom to live sustainably at peace with the community of Life; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That we seek the involvement of indigenous peoples in the rebuilding of a new society on their ancestral land; and

As a signal to the national “Occupy” movement and Indigenois Peoples who have felt excluded who have felt excluded by the colonialist language used to name this movement, it shall be declared that “Occupy Oakland" aspires to “Decolonize Oakland" with the guidance and participation of Indigenous Peoples; and


Extending an open hand of humility and friendship, we hereby invite Indigenous Peoples to join us in this popular uprising now taking place across this continent. We wish to further the process of healing and reconciliation and implore Indigenous Peoples to share their wisdom and guidance, as they see fit, so as to help us restore true freedom and democracy and initiate a new era of peace and cooperation that will work for everyone, including the Earth and the original inhabitants of this land In Solidarity,

Joanne Barker (510-206-9527)

Luz Calvo

Andreana Clay

Andrew Jolivette

[SoNotHer]

There are different rivers running to this delta right now - the disadvantage of asynchronous communication. It's important, however, to focus on the confluence suggested by these rivers of thought.

1) I do think the term "occupy" is not a good one, and if the movement evolves, as I hope it does, this should change.

2) Pain, loss and violence have already begun, whether or not it's at the protests or it's the many injustices and indignities we will never see or know of that have come about as the rich most certainly have gotten richer and the poor poorer. Some of us know people who are losing their homes, in medical bankruptcy, making choices between food and medication, working minimum-wage jobs, not working, not surviving. This battle started a long time ago, and there have long been casualties.

3) We all desire social and economic justice/equality, positive momentum and the opportunity for all to survive and thrive. We are looking for a greater semblance of balance in a system that feels increasingly imbalanced.

So let's agree on the larger points and allow ourselves to respectfully disagree on the some of the finer points for now. I believe these too will work out in time.

If we do not have solidarity here, I can assure we will not be effective against a formidable opponent that has absolutely no interest in giving up the power it has so well accrued.

[Cin]

The other day I read something (I forget where) that has made me ponder whether or not we on the Left aren't hamstringing ourselves in some ways. Part of the problem I see us having in our nation is that, unlike a number of other nations I can name, the rich here do not feel any particular tie to the United States. German companies try to keep a certain percentage of jobs in Germany. Japanese companies behave the same way. As do the French and the British and the South Koreans and the Spanish and the Russians. Not the Americans. Now, is there anyone here who would say that Volkswagen, Audi, BMW or Mercedes-Benz aren't real companies? Would anyone say that they put out products no one wants or products that are inferior? Would anyone say that Sony or Toshiba aren't real companies? Does anyone think that the people who sit at the apex of any of the above aren't rich beyond the dreams of avarice?

Without diving into an orgy of protectionism I would like to see a bit more economic nationalism on the part of American corporations. I would like to see our tax code restructured in order to make it clear that we value job creation *here* not in Singapore. I'm sure the Singaporeans are a noble people with a distinguished history and given a choice between my next door neighbor getting a job building, say, solar panels in Portland and someone in Singapore getting that same job, for the same company, but being paid a fraction of the salary with the profits not being repatriated to the United States, I'll take my neighbor getting the job, thank you very much. I think we can restructure the business tax code to embody that ethic. Imagine, for instance, the definition of a US company (and thus domestic products) being something like this:

An American company is defined as any LLC or LLP or other chartered business which has its corporate headquarters in the United States of America and that employs 80% of its workforce domestically. There is a tax rate for American companies and then there's a tax rate for foreign companies. If My Widgets, Inc. moves its headquarters to the Cayman Islands because of the loose banking laws, they are no longer an American company. Their products are now imports not domestic products. They are taxed at the higher rate for foreign companies and their goods have whatever kind of import or excise taxes that foreign goods have. This would make the widgets from MWI far *less* competitive.

Now, has the government told the owners of MWI where they have to put their factory or their HQ? Nope. They are free to move their business anywhere they wish. They are also free to pay the consequences for doing so.

The Right loves to talk a lot about personal responsibility and 'moral hazard' but that is always and forever a one-way street. If we have long-term unemployment benefits that creates a moral hazard. If we have a welfare system at all that denies personal responsibility. But for some reason, the moment we are talking about businesses there's no more responsibility and there's no more moral hazard. Suddenly businesses will always do the right thing in all circumstances regardless of what their actions actually are. How do we know those are the right things, because businesses do them.

If personal responsibility is good enough to cudgel the high school dropout with then I think it's good enough to cudgel the MBA from the Wharton school who gets it into his head that it would be a great idea to buy up company X, strip it to the bone, move the HQ to someplace where they won't have to pay taxes, move whatever is left of the manufacturing operations to some other nation where they can pay workers $2 a week, and in the process completely obliterate the economy of an American city. If we can say that unemployment benefits should be limited lest they be abused, then we can equally say that the tax code shouldn't be an invitation to ship good, middle-class jobs overseas lest business people be tempted to do what we've told them, through the medium of our laws, is perfectly acceptable. I don't see how we can do that without appealing to a sense of 'you take care of your countrymen first' across the board.

I do agree with economic nationalism. I hope we can force corporations to accept more accountability for what is happening here at home. Guilt tripping, moral accountability and responsibility are useful and a call to nationalism is fine. Finest of all will be some well placed taxes and incentives to make them take responsibility for their country. Will it happen? I sure hope so. However, I can’t help but believe that we are not the only people who understand what a logical step these laws are if anyone is interested in economic recovery. So if they know it, but are refusing to do it, then we are left with the realization that we will have to make them. However, something will have to change dramatically for the 99% to get the power to effect change anything like what we are talking about.

So nationalism is good and necessary. However, that said, I believe the kind of financial terrorism we are seeing perpetrated by the banking cartel will not be fixed so easily. This is where I see a united global response being needed. There is and will continue to be a financial globalization and in order to counter balance this there will need to be a more united global response. I don’t know what this will look like and I’m certainly not advocating no borders or world citizenship or anything even remotely in that vicinity. I am talking more about a united philosophical ideology concerning the rights and dignity of human beings. A kind of global philosophical revolution. I understand that any kind of united global resistance is a long way off. We are seeing significant global unrest but this is just the beginning. I am not advocating taking jobs away from Americans and giving them to people in other countries. I agree that we need to focus on our own economic recovery. I am saying that because of the way the world works at this time we will ultimately need to come up with a global response to the things that are effecting everyone world wide. We need to understand that the struggle of one is the struggle of all, freedom for all or freedom for none. This does not mean I am against economic nationalism.

[nowandthen]

SHAME ON THE MAYOR AND OPD!!!!!! WHO STREETS OUR STREETS!:deepthoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OZLyUK0t0vQ

[Cin]

Wall Street Firms Spy on Protesters in Tax-Funded Center
In a secretive government facility Wall Street firms get to sit alongside the New York Police Department and spy on law-abiding citizens.

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/152875/wall_street_firms_spy_on_protesters_in_tax-funded_center?page=entire

Who Do the White Shirt Police Report to at Occupy Wall Street Protests?
Financial Giants Put New York City Cops On Their Payroll

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/10/financial-giants-put-new-york-city-cops-on-their-payroll/

[Cin]

FDR'S WORDS 60 YEARS AGO CONTINUE TO INSPIRE TODAY!

On January 11, 1944, in the midst of World War II, President Roosevelt spoke forcefully and eloquently about the greater meaning and higher purpose of American security in a post-war America. The principles and ideas conveyed by FDR's words matter as much now as they did over sixty years ago, and the Franklin D. Roosevelt American Heritage Center is proud to reprint a selection of FDR's vision for the security and economic liberty of the American people in war and peace.

“The Economic Bill of Rights”

Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union

It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

Of course Congress did not pass it.

[SoNotHer]

Excellent post! I'm so glad to hear someone bringing this up and correlating it to corporation action - the creation of monocultures, "pesticide ready" plants, GMOs and "terminal seeds," the wildly indiscriminate use of antibiotics in stockyard animals" as a natural (or unnatural) impetus and cause for the creation of superbugs like drug-resistant staff infections.

Persiphone, I've encouraged my students to write about a variety of topics, including OWS and this one. Do you have any sources for this that you like? One student is writing about this, and she's already accessed an article form The Altantic (6/11) and the PBS survival series segment. What else have you read that you like?


with the creation of superbugs via the current corporate oppression, i'd say you're kinda out of luck in the germaphobe thing. i'm sure it would be nice to have neat and clean protests that are shiny and germ and violence free, but that's just not how most (not all) change of this magnitude occurs. there is going to be violence, and germs, and differences of opinion, and a whole slew of other things to pick at and pick apart. hopefully the violence stays contained on the police side cuz that will just make people more involved. i would be worried when we hit the tipping point and the protestors become violent in response. i hope that doesn't happen.

i don't mind that it's messy. messy happens. i don't care about what the people look like or how old they are or if there is some trash or not or who has germs and who doesn't or if i smell incense. i don't give a shit. change needs to happen and i don't mind getting my hands dirty over it.

[AtLast]

If someone can post informative links about what happened in Oakland and the injured young man, please do.

Many conflicting stories floating around about how it came to happen. From the cops being pelted with paint, rocks, etc. when they asked demonstrators to get back on the sidewalk- to no one was doing a thing to provoke any police action. Also, it took much longer than it should have to get that kid to a medical facility due to chaos. Some of the folks that were trying to help him were shot at too, while trying to carry him closer to where medics could treat him??

I have had it with these "non-lethal" weapons claims. If you shoot someone with one at point blank range and hit certain areas, they can kill. This kid has a fractured skull ans last I heard (6 am) is in critical condition.

I know the blame is going to back and forth- what I am interested in is how we can demonstrate our dissent and not have this happen. And no, that won't include just letting people camp and march where they want. There needs to be ER services available, specified public free speech areas and common sense. Permits include services and resources for our right to assemble and protest as well as safety routes for ER vehicles.

Protests can be very important in effecting change, but violence and chaos do nothing to effect change. The 99% includes people from the far left to moderates. Even folks that have some conservative views- we are all getting screwed by the 1%. In fact, this is the first time I really seen a movement marching in the streets in which people that most of the time would not cross paths, have differing political views, sexualities, as well as educational levels or professions and differ in race out there together. In some cities fire fighters and police officers have joined in. Actually, I like this about the OWS movement- it does represent the 99%- the whole point of the movement.

[Ebon]

If someone can post informative links about what happened in Oakland and the injured young man, please do.

Many conflicting stories floating around about how it came to happen. From the cops being pelted with paint, rocks, etc. when they asked demonstrators to get back on the sidewalk- to no one was doing a thing to provoke any police action. Also, it took much longer than it should have to get that kid to a medical facility due to chaos. Some of the folks that were trying to help him were shot at too, while trying to carry him closer to where medics could treat him??

I have had it with these "non-lethal" weapons claims. If you shoot someone with one at point blank range and hit certain areas, they can kill. This kid has a fractured skull ans last I heard (6 am) is in critical condition.

I know the blame is going to back and forth- what I am interested in is how we can demonstrate our dissent and not have this happen. And no, that won't include just letting people camp and march where they want. There needs to be ER services available, specified public free speech areas and common sense. Permits include services and resources for our right to assemble and protest as well as safety routes for ER vehicles.

Protests can be very important in effecting change, but violence and chaos do nothing to effect change. The 99% includes people from the far left to moderates. Even folks that have some conservative views- we are all getting screwed by the 1%. In fact, this is the first time I really seen a movement marching in the streets in which people that most of the time would not cross paths, have differing political views, sexualities, as well as educational levels or professions and differ in race out there together. In some cities fire fighters and police officers have joined in. Actually, I like this about the OWS movement- it does represent the 99%- the whole point of the movement.

http://www.businessinsider.com/this-veteran-could-be-the-first-person-to-die-at-a-wall-street-protest-2011-10


Scott Olsen survived two tours of Iraq, but his life could be over after being critically injured by a police projectile at Occupy Oakland, The Guardian reports. He's 24 years old.

As we know, Occupy Oakland got incredibly ugly this week as police tried to remove protesters from their camp in front of City Hall by using tear gas, fire crackers, and rubber bullets.

Olsen suffered a head injury on Tuesday night, and is now in critical condition in Oakland's Highland Hospital. Jay Finneburgh, a photographer on the scene, managed to witness and take pictures of the incident. Police policy specifically prohibits the firing of these weapons at a person's head.

"This poor guy was right behind me when he was hit in the head with a police projectile. He went down hard and did not get up," Finneburgh wrote.

At first, Doctors told Olsen's friends that he was in critical, but stable condition. Now they're being told that his skull has been fractured and his brain is beginning to swell. Neurologists are in the process of determining whether or not he will require surgery.

According to Keith Shannon, a friend who served with Olsen during his time in Iraq, Olsen was hit in the head with a tear gas or smoke canister, and he has the scar on his head to prove it.

Meanwhile, Oakland police admit that they used tear gas and baton rounds, but have denied the use of flash bang grenades. Protesters, however, say they saw police use them, and the more video that comes out, the harder it is to believe the police.

Olsen hails from Wisconsin, served tours of Iraq in 2006 and 2007, and is active in both Veterans for Peace and Iraq Veterans Against the War.

You can see a video of him collapsing and injured below.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/this-veteran-could-be-the-first-person-to-die-at-a-wall-street-protest-2011-10#ixzz1c0pcVmVh




Here is the video also. It shows the police throwing a flash bomb right in the middle of them while they are trying to help him.

OZLyUK0t0vQ

[nowandthen]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/article_381bae90-00ad-11e1-91c2-001cc4c002e0.html

[Toughy]

well the Mayor certainly is talking out of both sides of her mouth. Her tune has changed in less than 48 hours. I'm pissed I voted for her. I also want to know where the City Council members were when Tuesday happened and what they knew about it and what they are going to do about it.

There are re-call the Mayor petitions being circulated right now.

[SoNotHer]

They actually fired on the people who ran to help the protestor they shot with tear gas?

I can't even begin to express how angry I am right now.


http://www.businessinsider.com/this-veteran-could-be-the-first-person-to-die-at-a-wall-street-protest-2011-10


Scott Olsen survived two tours of Iraq, but his life could be over after being critically injured by a police projectile at Occupy Oakland, The Guardian reports. He's 24 years old.

As we know, Occupy Oakland got incredibly ugly this week as police tried to remove protesters from their camp in front of City Hall by using tear gas, fire crackers, and rubber bullets.

Olsen suffered a head injury on Tuesday night, and is now in critical condition in Oakland's Highland Hospital. Jay Finneburgh, a photographer on the scene, managed to witness and take pictures of the incident. Police policy specifically prohibits the firing of these weapons at a person's head.

"This poor guy was right behind me when he was hit in the head with a police projectile. He went down hard and did not get up," Finneburgh wrote.

At first, Doctors told Olsen's friends that he was in critical, but stable condition. Now they're being told that his skull has been fractured and his brain is beginning to swell. Neurologists are in the process of determining whether or not he will require surgery.

According to Keith Shannon, a friend who served with Olsen during his time in Iraq, Olsen was hit in the head with a tear gas or smoke canister, and he has the scar on his head to prove it.

Meanwhile, Oakland police admit that they used tear gas and baton rounds, but have denied the use of flash bang grenades. Protesters, however, say they saw police use them, and the more video that comes out, the harder it is to believe the police.

Olsen hails from Wisconsin, served tours of Iraq in 2006 and 2007, and is active in both Veterans for Peace and Iraq Veterans Against the War.

You can see a video of him collapsing and injured below.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/this-veteran-could-be-the-first-person-to-die-at-a-wall-street-protest-2011-10#ixzz1c0pcVmVh




Here is the video also. It shows the police throwing a flash bomb right in the middle of them while they are trying to help him.

OZLyUK0t0vQ

[SoNotHer]

and his skull is fractured. He came back from two tours of Iraq to participate in a democracy that he defended. Yeah, how about that.

http://front.moveon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/scott-olsen.jpg

[nowandthen]

http://www.occupytogether.org/2011/10/27/tonight-vigils-across-america-for-scott-olsen/

[MsMerrick]

If someone can post informative links about what happened in Oakland and the injured young man, please do.

Many conflicting stories floating around about how it came to happen. From the cops being pelted with paint, rocks, etc. when they asked demonstrators to get back on the sidewalk- to no one was doing a thing to provoke any police action. Also, it took much longer than it should have to get that kid to a medical facility due to chaos. Some of the folks that were trying to help him were shot at too, while trying to carry him closer to where medics could treat him??

.
I posted such links yesterday evening and yes, you can see very clearly , people rush back to help the young man lying on the ground..and a Police person, lobs a Flash Bomb DIRECTLY into the middle of teh group trying to help! Very Al-Quaeda esque ....! Attack one person or thing, then lob another attack when people rush to help...

[MsMerrick]

Btw, Michael Moore is saying he will be in Oakland tomorrow to stand with the protesters.

[AtLast]

I posted such links yesterday evening and yes, you can see very clearly , people rush back to help the young man lying on the ground..and a Police person, lobs a Flash Bomb DIRECTLY into the middle of teh group trying to help! Very Al-Quaeda esque ....! Attack one person or thing, then lob another attack when people rush to help...

I looked at these today- my heart in in my throat. Weird reports here in terms of some info left out as far as I can see with now the videos being posted.

There are also some other pics posted in various blogs/articles with other people that have been hit with these bean bag and rubber ball bullets- ALL that I have seen have been in the face or on the neck. And facial bones have ben broken. So, I'm think close range- but maybe any range can do this kind of harm? I think people should use bullet, because that is what they are. The "non-lethal weapon" thing is just wrong. They can be lethal just as tasers can be.

As Toughy wrote earlier, police are not to shoot these at close range and not in the face in the first place. Obviously, these officers did just that. I am wondering about how "orders" are given about this and are these part of what police always have with them- or are these just for "riot patrols?" That term bothers me too.

I am not one to jump to conclusions on police as sometimes I think their actions are justified. But, I'm having a hard time with this. Why were these even used? Even if the crowd was throwing things at them, there is no indication of anyone other than the police being armed. usually, using tear gas breaks up crowds fairly fast- why did they go to these?

I hope this guy recovers fully from this, but it sure sounds like he was hurt badly.

[Corkey]

The average speed of a rubber bullet is 141 mph, sniper bullets are much faster.
Bone will shatter at these speeds.

[Toughy]

At Last.........

There is NEVER EVER justification for the police to use flash grenades, rubber bulletts/bean bags and tear gas on unarmed citizens exercizing our right to assemble in the streets or on public property. Whose Streets? OUR Streets!

So the fuck what they got pelleted with a few paint balls, rocks and bottles....the police were in FULL riot gear......vests, face masks, helmets, padding everywhere on their bodies.....I doubt they even felt the paint balls hit them in the back. The police came looking for a fight and they started one.

I can't believe you would even think about defending what they police did on Tuesday morning and night. There is no justification.

[AtLast]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/article_381bae90-00ad-11e1-91c2-001cc4c002e0.html

This article says he was struck with a tear gas canister but also says that is "what is believed." Here in the bay Area of CA, reports have said it was either a rubber bullet or bean bag bullet. Wonder when the actual facts are going to be publicized?

He was hurt badly no matter what hit him or how. This says he is in "fair" condition- others say "critical." All reports I know of say he is in an intensive care unit.

This just plain sux!

[Toughy]

looking around on the Occupy website I found this page.......I'm kind of stunned at how many towns/cities have folks participating and occupying....

http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/

[Corkey]

Lets be clear. The Oakland police department came armed with several riot options. They encountered a peaceful protest and after being taunted with paint and a few rocks, which they were fully capable of protecting themselves from, lobbed tear gas in the direction of a person in a wheelchair, and used a flash bomb on a person who was UNarmed. Upon which Unarmed civilians trying to remove injured civilians from the scene were again flashed bombed. There is NO reason for any of this to have happened. The Mayor needs to answer to the people of Oakland and the police chief needs to answer why his officers used lethal force on unarmed civilians.

[Toughy]

The Oakland Police Chief flatly denies his officers used rubber bullets. He says they are not in the inventory. He says it must have been police from other jurisdictions that used them, in spite of the agreement that no rubber bullets would be allowed........

snort..........

[AtLast]

Lets be clear. The Oakland police department came armed with several riot options. They encountered a peaceful protest and after being taunted with paint and a few rocks, which they were fully capable of protecting themselves from, lobbed tear gas in the direction of a person in a wheelchair, and used a flash bomb on a person who was UNarmed. Upon which Unarmed civilians trying to remove injured civilians from the scene were again flashed bombed. There is NO reason for any of this to have happened. The Mayor needs to answer to the people of Oakland and the police chief needs to answer why his officers used lethal force on unarmed civilians.

Just saw info on the person in the wheelchair- WTH?? I agree about the police being able to protect themselves against rocks and paint- they wear shields.

Good luck with the Mayor of Oakland answering for this! The Chief of Police just quit in Oakland last week due to poor relations with City Hall in Oakland.

What a mess.

[Sachita]

Just saw info on the person in the wheelchair- WTH?? I agree about the police being able to protect themselves against rocks and paint- they wear shields.

Good luck with the Mayor of Oakland answering for this! The Chief of Police just quit in Oakland last week due to poor relations with City Hall in Oakland.

What a mess.

you would think by now that all law enforcement would be prepped to handle this in a non-violent way.

[Cin]

So they are rebuilding...

Tension remains at Occupy Oakland even as action abates


OAKLAND -- The volatile Occupy Oakland movement experienced something of a detente Thursday as protesters, police and city officials retrenched under the world's increasingly critical eyes.

Protesters started rebuilding a tent city that had been removed by police Tuesday night at Frank H. Ogawa Plaza, in front of City Hall. Mayor Jean Quan, whose approval of the raid brought condemnation from pundits and protesters, was quiet Thursday amid questions over whether the camp would be allowed to remain on the plaza.

Meanwhile, an Iraq War veteran who was critically injured by a projectile believed to be fired or thrown by police Tuesday prepared for surgery to relieve pressure on his brain. Scott Olsen, a 24-year-old former Marine, had improved slightly Thursday at Highland Hospital and was able to breathe on his own for the first time since the injury, said his roommate, Keith Shannon of Daly City.

Several tents were back up in the plaza by Thursday afternoon and occupiers were expanding a shrine to Olsen built around the base of a memorial to military veterans.

Vita McDonnell, 24, who was arrested in Tuesday morning's raid of the encampment, brought a box of candles and notebook in which she is asking people to write notes of encouragement to Olsen and reflections of events of the past several days.

"He was protesting our arrests," said McDonnell, a health-care assistant. "I felt very touched by it. This is really something I had to
Advertisement
do."

Tuesday morning's police raid "felt like we were under attack. It was like a war zone," she said. After 13 hours in custody, mostly at the Santa Rita Jail in Dublin, she was released with a citation of unlawful assembly, she said.

As protesters held vigils and expressed anger over Olsen's injury, police were tight-lipped Thursday about the incident. Oakland's interim police chief, Howard Jordan, said investigators were still piecing together accounts from more than a dozen police
departments that sent officers to Oakland for the raid on the encampment.

Olsen's injury prompted vehement anger toward police during protesters' march around the city Wednesday night, but Jordan would not speculate whether the Daly City man had been hit by a police projectile such as a tear-gas canister, rubber bullet, wooden dowel or something else. At least one police department suggested officers may not be to blame for the incident.

"I haven't seen much, but given the nature of that individual's injuries, I'm wondering if he wasn't struck by something thrown by a demonstrator," said Chief Dennis Burns, of the Palo Alto Police Department.

Oakland police violated their own crowd-control rules, which call for medical services to be available when tear gas and other control measures are used, said Jim Chanin, a civil-rights attorney who has fought for police reform.

Thursday's lull left more questions than answers about the future of Occupy Oakland, which has leapt to the forefront of the nationwide Occupy movement targeting banks, big business and a slate of other social and economic issues. The East Bay protests have captivated talk-show hosts such as Jon Stewart and Keith Olbermann, and documentary filmmaker Michael Moore announced Thursday on Twitter that he would arrive at the Oakland site Friday.

[Cin]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site571/2011/1027/20111027__eoak1028occupyoak~3_GALLERY.JPG

Wednesday evening, Occupy Oakland protesters returned to Frank Ogawa Plaza for a relatively peaceful rally and march. Most of the anticipated action was in San Francisco, where a clash with police never materialized.

On Thursday morning, two tents were pitched on the square in from of City Hall at 14th Street and Broadway

9:20 a.m.: Two tents and fence `sculpture' on Oakland plaza

Two tents remain on the plaza after the previous night's rally. About a dozen people camped overnight, it appears without city intervention.

What's really attracting attention is a stack of cyclone fence, the remnants of a barrier that had been erected around the lawn area but was torn down by protesters. The stack of fencing resembles a sculpture and many people are walking up to take pictures of it. A police officer just went over to snap a shot as well.

[SoNotHer]

I have actually had a visceral reaction to what has happened to Scott Olsen.. This young man is a hero and a leader.

"Olsen was dedicated to the Occupy movement, working at his job during the day and joining the protest at night, Shannon said...He became active in the antiwar movement when he returned [from Iraq]. In the last three weeks, he's only been home a couple of nights," Shannon said. "He's been dedicated to this even though he has a good job, just trying to support the movement even though he's not directly affected."

Dottie Guy, also a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War, has been at the hospital since Tuesday night. She'd met Olsen only a few months ago but said he is always smiling, always positive."

From -

Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/article_381bae90-00ad-11e1-91c2-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1c2bCxEcO


http://www.businessinsider.com/this-veteran-could-be-the-first-person-to-die-at-a-wall-street-protest-2011-10


Scott Olsen survived two tours of Iraq, but his life could be over after being critically injured by a police projectile at Occupy Oakland, The Guardian reports. He's 24 years old.

As we know, Occupy Oakland got incredibly ugly this week as police tried to remove protesters from their camp in front of City Hall by using tear gas, fire crackers, and rubber bullets.

Olsen suffered a head injury on Tuesday night, and is now in critical condition in Oakland's Highland Hospital. Jay Finneburgh, a photographer on the scene, managed to witness and take pictures of the incident. Police policy specifically prohibits the firing of these weapons at a person's head.

"This poor guy was right behind me when he was hit in the head with a police projectile. He went down hard and did not get up," Finneburgh wrote.

At first, Doctors told Olsen's friends that he was in critical, but stable condition. Now they're being told that his skull has been fractured and his brain is beginning to swell. Neurologists are in the process of determining whether or not he will require surgery.

According to Keith Shannon, a friend who served with Olsen during his time in Iraq, Olsen was hit in the head with a tear gas or smoke canister, and he has the scar on his head to prove it.

Meanwhile, Oakland police admit that they used tear gas and baton rounds, but have denied the use of flash bang grenades. Protesters, however, say they saw police use them, and the more video that comes out, the harder it is to believe the police.

Olsen hails from Wisconsin, served tours of Iraq in 2006 and 2007, and is active in both Veterans for Peace and Iraq Veterans Against the War.

You can see a video of him collapsing and injured below.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/this-veteran-could-be-the-first-person-to-die-at-a-wall-street-protest-2011-10#ixzz1c0pcVmVh




Here is the video also. It shows the police throwing a flash bomb right in the middle of them while they are trying to help him.

OZLyUK0t0vQ

[atomiczombie]

Certainly, I’m happy to provide sources always:

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/analysis/theory/ongoing-occupywallstreet-debate-contesting-petit-bourgeois-spaces/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PeopleOfColorOrganize+%28Peop le+Of+Color+Organize%21%29

Then there's been the various iterations and riffs on the use of the word 'occupy'

http://unsettlingamerica.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/decolonize-wall-street/

http://ignite-revolution.org/

I find quite a bit of the language in the above quite problematic and I think that to the degree that OWS adopts these ideas, that is the degree to which it is problematic. While I understand why consensus decision making seems wonderful, my own experience is that it is not so much democratic as it is a way for a small group of people to hold an agenda hostage. I need point out only what happened to Rep. John Lewis in Atlanta where he showed up in support, someone blocked consensus on his being able to speak which, as an aside, was when I started to think 'Oh no, not again'.

I want OWS to be successful. I want it to push the political class (or drag them kicking and screaming) to the table so that the long hard slog of rebuilding the middle class in this country can begin. But I'm a reformer not a revolutionary. I just don't trust revolutions because so few of them turn out well. I'd love to see us have a Constitutional convention with two goals:

1) A Constitutional amendment specifically defining a person in such a way that corporations are outside of the definition

2) A Constitutional amendment providing for the public financing of campaigns.

I think that those two things alone would go a very long way toward making the voices of the vast majority of people who aren't rich something that elected officials ignore to their singular peril. Right now, there's really no negative consequence to ignoring our voices that isn't outweighed by the consequences of ignoring their master's (read: the top 1%) voice and so they pay the piper that plays the tune. If we are the piper, they'll have to listen to us.

Cheers
Aj

Thanks for sharing your sources Aj.

The article from your first link is really the first I have read about OWS mentioning any words such as petty bourgeoisie and socialism. Well, I have seen the word socialism bandied about but that is from right-wing critics and not from the protestors themselves. I found that whole article quite disturbing. Firstly, I am not sure how people are getting these statistics on the populations who are protesting.

"Since this movement is currently dominated by a class of people who make up, perhaps, the top 20% of the ninety-nine in the US and Canada––and probably only four or five per cent of the global ninety-nine––the fact that it is speaking, in very broad brushstrokes, in language vaguely akin to the language of communists is extremely interesting."

This sentence itself bugs me. How did the writer come up with these percentages? This is a fluid and growing movement and I can't imagine that anyone has collected enough data to do an accurate statistical analysis. It seems like the writer just pulled these numbers right out of her/his ass. Also, what specifically does the writer mean by "language akin to the language of communists" specifically? If you go to the 99delegation website or the OWS nyc working group site that I previously linked, you won't find much of any language resembling that of communists that I can see. No one is calling for an overthrow of the government or an end to capitalism in any of the working groups or general assemblies from what I have read.

And then there is this little gem:

"Even the fact that the movement has been resisting the need to place key demands on its agenda, falling back into some sort of “strength in directionless” ideology promoted by AdBusters (one of the key magazines for the activist, “culture-jamming” petty bourgeoisie), demonstrates the consciousness of a petty bourgeoisie in crisis––directionlessness, confusion, the realization that its class position is, and has always been, unstable."

First of all, Adbusters is a Vancouver based anti-consumerist magazine and yes they were the ones to propose a Sept. 17th occupation of Wall Street. But they don't claim any control over the protests and won't even comment about them when news organizations (such as NPR) ask them to. What the movement has become, has become so organically and not by the orchestration of Adbusters. Secondly, this ridiculous notion that the movement is directionless and that people don't know what they are protesting for is garbage. That's the kind of thing Faux news keeps saying. This sums it up better than any words can:

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz56/atomiczombie/OWS1.jpg

People know why they are protesting and what it is they want. The OWS working groups are working day and night to come up with a list of demands to put to Washington. This process takes so much time BECAUSE they are trying to include as many voices as possible and come to consensus. They are working towards a national General Assembly for next summer in Philadelphia. They are working on ways to make it possible for people who can't make it to the assembly to vote online. They are putting up as much of the process on the web as they can. This movement is very new and the process is slow, but that is good. It means they are being careful.

There's a lot more of that article that I really shake my head at, but here is a real zinger:

"When this movement peters out, as it surely will, and the majority of its most vocal supporters decide they want “to join the victors when the fight is over,” then we must ask ourselves what victories could be claimed by the left in the aftermath?"

This is just stupidity. It seems like the author is just wanting this whole thing to fail so that he or she can say, 'I was right! Ha ha!!' The truth is no one knows how this will turn out. 80 years ago during the Great Depression this country didn't have a revolution; it had a reformation. The economic situation today is in some ways very different, but in others very similar. The income inequality is almost the same as it was back then. We have corporate monopolies today that are just as powerful as the ones back then. The reforms we enacted back then have been eroded over the decades by all the deregulation done in the name of making America "more competitive". We can change this. We CAN achieve significant and needed reforms. The writer of this article seems to assume it will fail. Well, he/she can kiss 99% of my ass. I am going to stay positive and believe.

Ok so I could go on taking that article apart, but I am tired tonight lol. I do want to come back and talk about your other 2 links. The second one I found interesting, the third one seemed to be some fringe movement that really isn't tied to OWS in any concrete way. I haven't seen anything from them on the 99delegation site or in the minutes from the GA meetings. Ah, but it is late now and I need sleep, so I will sign off and continue this discussion tomorrow.

Thanks for participating!

Drew

[Cin]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site571/2011/1027/20111027__eoak1028occupyoak~3_GALLERY.JPG

Wednesday evening, Occupy Oakland protesters returned to Frank Ogawa Plaza for a relatively peaceful rally and march. Most of the anticipated action was in San Francisco, where a clash with police never materialized.

On Thursday morning, two tents were pitched on the square in from of City Hall at 14th Street and Broadway

9:20 a.m.: Two tents and fence `sculpture' on Oakland plaza

Two tents remain on the plaza after the previous night's rally. About a dozen people camped overnight, it appears without city intervention.

What's really attracting attention is a stack of cyclone fence, the remnants of a barrier that had been erected around the lawn area but was torn down by protesters. The stack of fencing resembles a sculpture and many people are walking up to take pictures of it. A police officer just went over to snap a shot as well.
http://c0014014.r32.cf1.rackcdn.com/x2_8fc3c4e

The picture in my original post changed. It was the "when they give you fences make sculpture" pic when I went to bed and it is "Iraq Veterans Against The War joined Occupy Oakland supporters to hold a vigil for Scott Olsen in front of city hall yesterday"pic when I woke up. I guess the picture will change frequently. That should prove interesting albeit puzzling as time passes.

Anyway here's a pic of fence sculpture.

[Dominique]

OCTOBER 17, 2011 Borrowed from the City Paper
Occupy Pittsburgh and other activists come calling at Toomey's office


BY LAUREN DALEY (http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Archive?author=oid%3A94120)


Share this article:

Participants in the Occupy Pittsburgh movement (http://www.occupypittsburgh.org/content/welcome-occupypittsburghorg) ventured out from their Mellon Green encampment and to protest outside Sen. Pat Toomey's office today, demanding he "[s]top working for Wall Street and start working for us."


The Occupy campers joined One Pittsburgh (http://onepittsburgh.org/) and its offshoot action, the People's Lobby (http://onepittsburgh.org/2011/10/11/join-the-people%E2%80%99s-lobby-tell-toomey-to-vote-yes-on-the-american-jobs-act/), in front of Toomey's Station Square office building at noon today. There, they denounced the Republican Senator's vote against the American Jobs Act (http://www.politicspa.com/casey-toomey-split-on-jobs-bill/28610/). The action was among those that Occupy participants consented to supporting (http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A101841) this week. They also plan to picket BNY Mellon -- which owns the Mellon Green site they are camping on -- this Wednesday.
The roughly three dozen activists on hand were joined by county councilor Amanda Green. "A lot of people think of me as an elected official, but that's just a part-time job," she said into the bullhorn. "I've got a full-time job. I've got bills to pay. I've got student loans. I understand what it's like to not be able to make ends meet."
Green made an impassioned speech from below Toomey's office window. "You need to be able to explain how, at almost 9 percent unemployment rate in this county, you vote 'no' on the [American Jobs Act]," she said. "It's unacceptable and ridiculous to me."
Toomey, protesters say, hasn't offered much of a response to their concerns. "At every meeting, his staff leads us nowhere," says Corey Buckner, a 24-year-old Garfield resident and member of One Pittsburgh.
Toomey has issued this statement on the ACA vote (http://toomey.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=309):
President Obama's latest stimulus bill contains hundreds of billions of dollars in increased spending and more tax hikes, which won't create jobs any more than his last stimulus bill did. With the unemployment rate at 9.1 percent, we do not have time to waste on political games and big tax increases that will only make our economy weaker for all Americans
Instead, I support a real jobs plan, which will reduce burdensome regulations that are preventing businesses from hiring; ratify three pending free trade agreements that will increase Pennsylvania's exports; simplify and reduce business and individual tax rates to encourage job-creating business expansions; and get our federal deficits under control, among other pro-growth measures. This plan will actually create jobs.
The protesters, meanwhile, called for Toomey's impeachment for his allegiance to corporations and big banks. And while One Pittsburgh and the People's Lobby aren't directly part of the Occupy Pittsburgh movement, or vice versa, activists like Buckner say the movements go hand-in-hand. "We're all here for the same thing," he said. "We want what Americans have been promised people forever: freedom and the ability to work."
After protesting for about 45 minutes, the group headed back across the Smithfield Bridge and into Downtown, shouting rants against Toomey and singing: "Everywhere we go, people want to know who we are," one lyric went. "So we tell them: We are the 99!"
Onlookers seemed mostly amused or inquisitive. One man yelled, as he flicked his cigarette in the trash, "This is what you get for voting against Arlen Specter, you dumbasses!" Another man, walking behind the protest, asked, "Are they shouting against Toomey?"
Told they were, he smiled. "I can agree with that."
Meanwhile, Downtown workers have been scoping out the Mellon Green encampment that has suddenly appeared amidst the city's skyscrapers. Some workers milled around the encampment during the morning rush and lunch hour, reading signs posted on the fence around the parklet's fountain.
"Keep up the good work!" one woman in a business suit yelled as she passed by on Grant. Another man sidled up to protestor Steve Cooper and said, "Ok, what do I need to know?"
Not everyone was receptive to the message: Occupiers have been keeping a tally of how many times a passerby instructs them to "get a job!" -- and that number is now in the dozens.
But as camper Doug Placais, 27, of the city's Allentown neighborhood puts it: "For every one person who walks by and yells 'get a job' there's been a positive honk or someone yelling in support."

[persiphone]

Excellent post! I'm so glad to hear someone bringing this up and correlating it to corporation action - the creation of monocultures, "pesticide ready" plants, GMOs and "terminal seeds," the wildly indiscriminate use of antibiotics in stockyard animals" as a natural (or unnatural) impetus and cause for the creation of superbugs like drug-resistant staff infections.

Persiphone, I've encouraged my students to write about a variety of topics, including OWS and this one. Do you have any sources for this that you like? One student is writing about this, and she's already accessed an article form The Altantic (6/11) and the PBS survival series segment. What else have you read that you like?


there are antibiotic resistant genes in GMOs as well. what i find interesting is that there was DNA specifically engineered to be antibiotic resistant in a lab in America and then it was pumped into the food supply all nice and quiet. meanwhile, the media is all about telling us that OVERuse of antibiotics is the real problem...not that that ISN'T a problem...but i suspect it's not THE problem. same with the use of antibiotics in meat. is it a good practice? no. is it bad for you to eat meat that has been grown with antibiotics? probably. but what we're NOT talking about is the specifically engineered DNA that was specifically made to be antibiotic resistant floating around in GMO foods that are neither labeled on products nor regulated.

to understand this, one would have to look at how foreign or new DNA is taken up by an organism, lets say for example e.coli. there are a couple ways this happens naturally. one way is called horizontal gene transfer where different strains of bacteria are capable of uptaking each other's DNA. some organisms release their DNA upon death and leave what we call DNA litter. so let's say you ingest an e.coil organism that is carrying antibiotic resistant DNA (cuz e.coli is what they use in agrotech to introduce new DNA into plant cells) and that antibiotic resistant DNA litter is now in your digestive tract and your natural e.coli that is swarming around your intestines picks up the DNA via horizontal transfer. and voila! a superbug is born. i believe that we've actually become human farms for these superbugs unwittingly via GMOs. and i suspect i'm not the only one. there seems to be a timeline correlation between the emergence of superbugs and GMOs that i find unsettling.

i've not found books on this stuff. but i do read a lot and i've taken enough microbiology classes to be sufficiently scared to death of our food. you won't find anything in the news either. i would say google some science journals on the matter and possibly news sources that are not in America. Europe is vehemently antiGMO. protestors even went as far as to invade and cut down GMO crops while the police just stood and watched. i think those vids are floating around youtube. if we did that here we would be arrested and sued. on a side note....GMOs aren't only in the food supply. there are acres upon acres of GMO trees growing in our forests, in the amazon, and gawd only knows where else. veggies will pollinate once. trees, however, will pollinate many times in their lifetime. and the location of many of these GMO tree palntings are a secret. why?

[Cin]

xhOIMO87JrE&feature=player_detailpage

[Cin]

Occupy Oakland: Officials shift into damage control

OAKLAND -- Oakland Mayor Jean Quan shifted into damage control Thursday, asking hospitalized protester Scott Olsen and other Occupy Oakland demonstrators to cooperate with police investigating Olsen's head injury.

Quan visited Olsen, a former Marine and Iraq War veteran, on Thursday morning at Highland Hospital. She shook his hand, and apologized for what happened to him. She also encouraged him and fellow demonstrators to speak with police, a hospital spokesman said. Olsen was knocked down -- apparently by a tear-gas canister or other police projectile -- Tuesday night as authorities tried to keep protesters away from Frank H. Ogawa Plaza, in front of Oakland City Hall.

The protest group had been dislodged from their tents on the plaza by police earlier in the day.

Oakland police have promised a thorough investigation of the incident, which left Olsen with a brain injury that has impeded his speech. Alameda County prosecutors and federal investigators also planned to look into the violent clash.

The city has tried this week to recover from the confrontation, which attracted an avalanche of criticism from pundits, politicians and protesters. Television host Keith Olbermann called for Quan's resignation, and White House press secretary Jay Carney called on U.S. cities to preserve "a long and noble tradition in the United States of free expression and free speech."

Protesters started rebuilding their tent city Thursday, with at least a dozen tents erected on the plaza lawn by the evening. Quan had planned to speak to a large crowd that had gathered in front of City Hall on Thursday night, but she left without speaking because she would have had to wait in line, said her attorney, Dan Siegel.

She would have had to wait in line? I wonder what that implies.
For the whole article:
http://www.insidebayarea.com/top-stories/ci_19205555

[SoNotHer]

My reactions today are more emotional than logical. There is no logic or good explanation for what has happened. I was reading one of the articles posted here -

http://www.occupytogether.org/2011/10/27/tonight-vigils-across-america-for-scott-olsen/comment-page-1/#comment-9248

and discovered this comment which has garnered many comments, rightly so. It says a lot.
__________________________________________________ ____________

22 Responses to “Tonight: Vigils Across America for Scott Olsen”

Concerned American on October 27th, 2011 at 1:13 pm #

To the Mothers and Fathers of America:

This may not be clear to you yet, but those protestors out in the streets are your bravest children. They now hold the front for all of us in the centuries-old battle against tyranny. Many are fighting the corrupting influence of money in American politics, others against a system no longer functional for a majority that will only grow.

Some do not know exactly what they want–only that something has gone terribly wrong in a country in which they would like to believe.

They have not articulated one focused message, or one set of demands–and they do not need to. This is not a battle of right against left, red against blue, or liberal against conservative. It is not made-for-TV politics. It is a battle of right against wrong. America has lost, in its political discourse and behavior, the ability to distinguish between the two. Many of its practitioners seem not to care.

Those who support this movement in all its myriad shapes, sizes, sexes, colors, ideologies, income levels, and nationalities–have no sound bite. They get the problem, in general, and are massing to change it. Like the old thinker, they would rather be approximately correct than precisely wrong.

They give their nights, their sleep, their weekends, and their comfort to fight an uncertain battle for you, for all your children. They face police lines and mainstream scorn. They face the indifference of the vast armies of complacency and distraction, who keep waiting for the channel to change, the web page to update, and this movement to end. They face cynics who believe nothing will change, they face the often well-intentioned defeatists who believe nothing can change. They face politicians who patronize, tell them they don’t understand–that they, the politicians, support the movement, even as they make plans with their police forces to clear them.

On Tuesday, October 25th in Oakland, California, Scott Olsen, a 24-year-old Marine and Iraq veteran, standing beside another veteran, a naval officer in dress, was critically injured by a weapon used against him by a police officer from one of 17 jurisdictions in the San Francisco Bay Area. A group of occupiers running away from the scene, amidst police flash grenades, tear gas, and rubber bullets, rushed back when they saw Scott Olsen lying still on the ground. As they rushed in to pick him up–a dozen of your bravest, America–an unidentified officer tossed, from behind police ranks, another flash grenade at their feet. A handful of these unarmed protestors persisted, carrying Scott Olsen, dazed with a fractured skull, away from the police line, shouting for medics as the explosions and smoke recalled the nightmare of American battlefields.

Like this, the guns have again been turned back on your bravest children, most fighting only for the core values they were taught as children: people in need should be helped; democracy should be uncorrupted; citizens must gather in peace; and this country belongs to all of us, not a political elite increasingly indistinguishable from a financial and industrial corporate elite. Like all of us, they see clearly and abhor this crony capitalism now ascendent. They are doing something about it.

These are not trouble-making hippies, America–you mistake them as such at your peril. These are your better angels, trying to save you from yourself. They are your child that cannot help tell the truth, the sometimes inconvenient one that thinks of safety last and justice first. They are fighting the war that rages inside you when you see the circus on TV, in print, or online and can only shake your head. You ignore them, laugh at them, demean them, or discount them at your peril. They may be our last hope of transformation for this country reeling from war, from a crisis of confidence, from scandal, division, corruption, and poverty. Let no demagogue–especially talkers at the service of money and power–convince you, a thinking American, that these are not patriots of the truest kind.

So go out and support your children, America, and with them the fundamental ideas upon which this country was founded. Take a walk by the protest in your town at night, in the morning–drive by or bike past. Stop and talk to someone for a minute. Listen and watch. Gather your friends and neighbors. Everyone has their own place and their own role.

For every Scott Olsen, now lying in a hospital bed in critical condition, there should be 100,000 witnesses, who by their presence lend this movement strength and legitimacy.

As long as they occupy the centers of our cities, big and small, we–who wish to create a more perfect union–have an opening to change something vital, such as removing money from politics once and for all. It is possible. It has been done elsewhere. These children have brought the season of democracy, the days and especially nights of renewing democracy, and they need your protection.

Even your bravest children need to feel your strong hands on their back.

[atomiczombie]

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz56/atomiczombie/Flyer.jpg

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/27/chicago-traders-taunt-occupy-chicago-protesters-with-we-are-wall-street-leaflets/

[Cin]

that is hilarious. i would love to punch those bullying better than thou smirks right off their arrogant faces along with a good amount of their capped teeth.

So we have been on their backs? Really. And they will take over teaching America's kids for 40,000 a year and toss a ball around with them for another 5k in the summer. Well, I say good onya. And landscape their own land. Maybe people shouldn't own so much land they need landscapers anyway. and no longer leave 35% tips after their business lunches. Well, perhaps we need to look at the how the food industry works anyway.

You arrogant son of a bitches. You think you work hard? And we are just a bunch of lazy good for nothings looking for a hand out. I don't think you would recognize hard work if it hit you in the teeth.

Apparently we have come to place where something like Swift's "A Modest Proposal" is not a bit of satire that gives one pause but an acceptable course of action. It is threat to the 99% by the 1%. They really will eat our young and develop a popular meme explaining how we deserved it.

I guess something is scaring them because here they come again trying to terrorize us with version number 22 of the same old song. If you try to get the 1% to pay their fair share, they try to convince you that no matter what you do their fair share always comes out of the hide of the 99%. And it can be done the easy way with anesthetic or they can just tear it off you. So be nice and shut up. Signed the financial mafia.

[Cin]

I support a real jobs plan, which will reduce burdensome regulations that are preventing businesses from hiring; ratify three pending free trade agreements that will increase Pennsylvania's exports; simplify and reduce business and individual tax rates to encourage job-creating business expansions; and get our federal deficits under control, among other pro-growth measures. This plan will actually create jobs.

You know it concerns me that our elected officials, elected by the people and supposedly working for the people, can continue to spout this rhetoric. I am sure they have an understanding of how the economy works and how it could be fixed, they know what they are saying are lies, yet they continue to spread these untruths.

How will continued and increased tax breaks for corporations, who if not stopped will continue to bring jobs out of the country where there is cheaper labor, ever, ever create jobs for Americans? How can our elected officials not know this? They do know it. Yet they continue to tell us different because they believe the majority of people are too stupid to figure it out. So there is no harm for them in lying to us.

Free trade agreements aren’t very helpful for creating jobs when we continue to import so much more than we export. No jobs there. It would be helpful if, at least, we could tax imports from. U.S. corporations that are U.S. in ownership only. Meaning they provide no U.S. jobs, no goods are produced in U.S., no raw materials are purchased in the U.S. These corporations should be treated like foreign corporations and should pay to import their products to the U.S. So why don’t our elected officials understand this simple reality. Free trade agreements won’t get us jobs. Are they stupid or do they believe we are stupid?

I shudder to imagine what could define burdensome regulations. We don’t even have enough regulations in place to stop the financial sector from destroying the economy of the world. How much less regulations could we possibly survive with? How can any official, given the jam that a lack of regulation just got us into, say with a straight face that we need less of these burdensome regulations? It’s like the mayor of Oakland saying that Oakland needs a more aggressive police department. She would never say that because it would be political suicide. But politicians feel no such qualms about telling us we need to deregulate. Why? Do they think we are so stupid they can get away with that? They seem to be getting away with it.

The federal deficit would get in control much easier if we hadn’t had to bailout those poor over-regulated financial terrorists. But I doubt curtailing handouts to the wealthy is what the 1% has in mind when they speak of getting the deficits under control. They mean austerity measures (social genocide).

So let me see if I can get this straight. The deficit is so bad because the financial sector engaged in actions that [purposely (hard to believe that they could ignore all the warnings and still plead ignorance) or accidentally because of greed and disinterest in consequences – you choose which you believe] are destroying the world’s economy (which destruction, if they place their bets correctly, could even make them money –so really what is in it for them if we have economic recovery) and we the 99% had to bail them out. And we had to bail them out despite the reality that of all the people hurt by their actions they suffered least, if at all, and that the 1% has plenty of money, the banks have plenty of money, everyone who is anyone in finance is still making money hand over fist, but just they don’t have money they wish to share. Then to add injury to insult we have to be squeezed and nickel and dimed to death. The 1% continues to insist on tax breaks and deregulation and bailouts and bonuses and whatnot that benefit them and that will inevitably erase the middle class, crush the working class and leave the poor hopeless. Rather than raise taxes for the rich they would rather subject the rest of us to untold pain and suffering.

They talk like the things they are saying make perfect sense and deserve to be taken seriously as an answer to our economic woes. It’s as though we should take seriously the idea that perhaps the sun does indeed revolve around the earth after all.

[Sachita]

LUTkavuPrv8


Does anyone remember this? How profound George was. RIP

[AtLast]

Occupy Oakland: Officials shift into damage control

OAKLAND -- Oakland Mayor Jean Quan shifted into damage control Thursday, asking hospitalized protester Scott Olsen and other Occupy Oakland demonstrators to cooperate with police investigating Olsen's head injury.

Quan visited Olsen, a former Marine and Iraq War veteran, on Thursday morning at Highland Hospital. She shook his hand, and apologized for what happened to him. She also encouraged him and fellow demonstrators to speak with police, a hospital spokesman said. Olsen was knocked down -- apparently by a tear-gas canister or other police projectile -- Tuesday night as authorities tried to keep protesters away from Frank H. Ogawa Plaza, in front of Oakland City Hall.

The protest group had been dislodged from their tents on the plaza by police earlier in the day.

Oakland police have promised a thorough investigation of the incident, which left Olsen with a brain injury that has impeded his speech. Alameda County prosecutors and federal investigators also planned to look into the violent clash.

The city has tried this week to recover from the confrontation, which attracted an avalanche of criticism from pundits, politicians and protesters. Television host Keith Olbermann called for Quan's resignation, and White House press secretary Jay Carney called on U.S. cities to preserve "a long and noble tradition in the United States of free expression and free speech."

Protesters started rebuilding their tent city Thursday, with at least a dozen tents erected on the plaza lawn by the evening. Quan had planned to speak to a large crowd that had gathered in front of City Hall on Thursday night, but she left without speaking because she would have had to wait in line, said her attorney, Dan Siegel.

She would have had to wait in line? I wonder what that implies.
For the whole article:
http://www.insidebayarea.com/top-stories/ci_19205555

Also, the rest of the council members are speaking out about the mayor not bringing the coucil together to discuss approaches to the demonstrations. Frankly, I agree with these members as this could have been avoided with looking at more ideas and safety concerns. One member said she would never have backed any kind of police action in which unarmed citizens of Oakland would be subjected to "riot squad" mentality.

After a fair amount of time in which it was clear not only in Oakland, but all across the US, that people are going to continue airing their complaints about these issues (that affect every part of their lives), city governments should have sat down with appointed reps from the protests and worked out how to have a safe and peaceful way for our rights to assemble and take our dissent to our public officials. There have been many, many supporters with the means offering financial help for things like porta-potties, food and food distribution as well as park cleaning and sanitation in order to take the financial burden of of city budgets that have been cut to shreads.

What bothers me the most about this is that this has become just another layer of the blockade the 99% feel is at the core of why our complaints are not heard. And there are solutions out there that can stop these kinds of things from happening.

News I have heard today about Olsen is that the surgery (for the brain swelling) planned has been postponed for today and he still is unable to speak. He is stable and his family is here from WS. There was a candle light vigil last night and more planned. he has support from other vets that stand up against war and want our troops out of Afghanistan.

Let's all throw out a "best wishes" for his full recovery from all corners of the Planet.

There is a lot of passing of the buck going on with Mayor Qwan that is just discusting. She needs to take responsibility, especially since she acted quite unilaterally- which to me, puts another layer of discust concerning the fact that we send troops off to wars under the guise of fighting for freedom and democratic (action bt consensus) ideals.

Sorr- not spell checking or getting typos- tired today.

[persiphone]

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz56/atomiczombie/Flyer.jpg

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/27/chicago-traders-taunt-occupy-chicago-protesters-with-we-are-wall-street-leaflets/


this makes me laugh. paper pushers and mathematical engineers don't strike me as the kind of people to run around mowing lawns for a living or working in the farm fields for minimum wages or less.

i think it's really funny considering the currency is actually backed by human labor and not gold. i'd LOVE, absolutely LOVE, to see a wall street "trader", work on the farms that i have doing the kind of labor that i do and pull up in their 80 thousand dollar sports car. hell, i'd pay to see that.

[persiphone]

You know it concerns me that our elected officials, elected by the people and supposedly working for the people, can continue to spout this rhetoric. I am sure they have an understanding of how the economy works and how it could be fixed, they know what they are saying are lies, yet they continue to spread these untruths.

How will continued and increased tax breaks for corporations, who if not stopped will continue to bring jobs out of the country where there is cheaper labor, ever, ever create jobs for Americans? How can our elected officials not know this? They do know it. Yet they continue to tell us different because they believe the majority of people are too stupid to figure it out. So there is no harm for them in lying to us.

Free trade agreements aren’t very helpful for creating jobs when we continue to import so much more than we export. No jobs there. It would be helpful if, at least, we could tax imports from. U.S. corporations that are U.S. in ownership only. Meaning they provide no U.S. jobs, no goods are produced in U.S., no raw materials are purchased in the U.S. These corporations should be treated like foreign corporations and should pay to import their products to the U.S. So why don’t our elected officials understand this simple reality. Free trade agreements won’t get us jobs. Are they stupid or do they believe we are stupid?

I shudder to imagine what could define burdensome regulations. We don’t even have enough regulations in place to stop the financial sector from destroying the economy of the world. How much less regulations could we possibly survive with? How can any official, given the jam that a lack of regulation just got us into, say with a straight face that we need less of these burdensome regulations? It’s like the mayor of Oakland saying that Oakland needs a more aggressive police department. She would never say that because it would be political suicide. But politicians feel no such qualms about telling us we need to deregulate. Why? Do they think we are so stupid they can get away with that? They seem to be getting away with it.

The federal deficit would get in control much easier if we hadn’t had to bailout those poor over-regulated financial terrorists. But I doubt curtailing handouts to the wealthy is what the 1% has in mind when they speak of getting the deficits under control. They mean austerity measures (social genocide).

So let me see if I can get this straight. The deficit is so bad because the financial sector engaged in actions that [purposely (hard to believe that they could ignore all the warnings and still plead ignorance) or accidentally because of greed and disinterest in consequences – you choose which you believe] are destroying the world’s economy (which destruction, if they place their bets correctly, could even make them money –so really what is in it for them if we have economic recovery) and we the 99% had to bail them out. And we had to bail them out despite the reality that of all the people hurt by their actions they suffered least, if at all, and that the 1% has plenty of money, the banks have plenty of money, everyone who is anyone in finance is still making money hand over fist, but just they don’t have money they wish to share. Then to add injury to insult we have to be squeezed and nickel and dimed to death. The 1% continues to insist on tax breaks and deregulation and bailouts and bonuses and whatnot that benefit them and that will inevitably erase the middle class, crush the working class and leave the poor hopeless. Rather than raise taxes for the rich they would rather subject the rest of us to untold pain and suffering.

They talk like the things they are saying make perfect sense and deserve to be taken seriously as an answer to our economic woes. It’s as though we should take seriously the idea that perhaps the sun does indeed revolve around the earth after all.

they're still clinging to the notion of trickle down economics, which, as we've seen, doesn't work. they keep talking this trash but never mention that the largest corporations in this country are literally sitting on a collective trillions of dollars in cash. TRILLIONS! of CASH! they aren't spending shit and we are the most deregulated we've ever been since after the Depression. the bottom line is they have no other answers. it's all lip service. they really don't have any other ammo in their arsenal. the same old spewing of nonsense is all they've got.

[Cin]

they're still clinging to the notion of trickle down economics, which, as we've seen, doesn't work. they keep talking this trash but never mention that the largest corporations in this country are literally sitting on a collective trillions of dollars in cash. TRILLIONS! of CASH! they aren't spending shit and we are the most deregulated we've ever been since after the Depression. the bottom line is they have no other answers. it's all lip service. they really don't have any other ammo in their arsenal. the same old spewing of nonsense is all they've got.

Well, actually it works just fine for the 1%. And they don't need any other answers. People are still buying this crap by the bushel. Truthfully these financial terrorists scare everyone with there doom economics. If they don't get what they want the economy will collapse, if they fail we will all shrivel up and die. The 99% needs to protect the 1% because they are our ticket to prosperity. Well we've all been riding that train for awhile and I don't know about you but I don't seem to be prospering so much at all. But they threaten us with if you think it's bad now wait and see if any of the shit storm we've created ever gets spattered on us there will be hell to pay. They threaten us saying if anything happens to move us toward a more equitable distribution of the wealth we will take your jobs and eat you alive. Hell I got news for them they've already done that.

Oh, I'm sure they have plenty of ammo in their arsenal. I bet we get a first hand look at it real soon.

[persiphone]

Well, actually it works just fine for the 1%. And they don't need any other answers. People are still buying this crap by the bushel. Truthfully these financial terrorists scare everyone with there doom economics. If they don't get what they want the economy will collapse, if they fail we will all shrivel up and die. The 99% needs to protect the 1% because they are our ticket to prosperity. Well we've all been riding that train for awhile and I don't know about you but I don't seem to be prospering so much at all. But they threaten us with if you think it's bad now wait and see if any of the shit storm we've created ever gets spattered on us there will be hell to pay. They threaten us saying if anything happens to move us toward a more equitable distribution of the wealth we will take your jobs and eat you alive. Hell I got news for them they've already done that.

Oh, I'm sure they have plenty of ammo in their arsenal. I bet we get a first hand look at it real soon.

truth be told i'd like to see the whole thing go under. seriously. i can feed myself without money so i'm just not scared of it. they already took my son's college fund and my retirement. my gramma always said.....never get into a fight with someone who has nothing to lose. fear has worked up to this point to spur the masses into voting for crap that screws us in the end. i think the whole doom economics thing has had it's 15 minutes of fame, they just aren't aware that the panic button is broken. we still haven't seen the worst of it. and i say that cuz it just keeps getting worse lol! when we hit the bottom we will all know it and that includes the 1%. you can't eat a 5 million dollar yacht and bullets don't make themselves. yanno who's gonna make it? the granola eating greenies and the survivalist conspiracy theorists! hahahahaa

[Sachita]

I am certainly not counting on SS, money, retirement programs or anything administrated by our government. My retirement plan is owning a big chunk of land free and clear, stock piles of non-gmo organic seeds, lots of hens, more fruit and nut trees and the knowledge to sustain no matter how fucked up it gets.

I do depend on money but could also do without it. Now that, to me, is the ultimate freedom

[persiphone]

I am certainly not counting on SS, money, retirement programs or anything administrated by our government. My retirement plan is owning a big chunk of land free and clear, stock piles of non-gmo organic seeds, lots of hens, more fruit and nut trees and the knowledge to sustain no matter how fucked up it gets.

I do depend on money but could also do without it. Now that, to me, is the ultimate freedom

wouldn't that be lovely? when i say they took my retirement and my son's college fund, i mean i invested hard cash. and now? it's gone. i've never been the recipient of anything from the government until getting a PELL grant to go to college. (thanks Obama! :) ) i never even take a tax refund. i figure they need it more than me. in fact...thinking back....i have never in my life received a tax refund check. in the times that i have worked for a paycheck and taxes were taken out, i've never technically earned enough to even qualify for filing and i didn't feel like i needed a tax refund so badly that i would annoy myself with such a nightmare institution like the IRS (which i am personally against to begin with) for a few bucks. i'll pass thanks.

i'm rambling. i really really love the idea of being self sufficient. it's a hard life though. but i'm not afraid of hard labor. never have been. it's good to know like minded people. :)

[Cin]

truth be told i'd like to see the whole thing go under. seriously. i can feed myself without money so i'm just not scared of it. they already took my son's college fund and my retirement. my gramma always said.....never get into a fight with someone who has nothing to lose. fear has worked up to this point to spur the masses into voting for crap that screws us in the end. i think the whole doom economics thing has had it's 15 minutes of fame, they just aren't aware that the panic button is broken. we still haven't seen the worst of it. and i say that cuz it just keeps getting worse lol! when we hit the bottom we will all know it and that includes the 1%. you can't eat a 5 million dollar yacht and bullets don't make themselves. yanno who's gonna make it? the granola eating greenies and the survivalist conspiracy theorists! hahahahaa

Urban dweller here. Never owned any land, never even a house. Came from a long line of no land no home people. Although I will say my grandparents raised chickens in the backyard of 3 story tenement building when i was kid. They also slaughtered pigs and god knows what else down in the basement. I remember roosters crowing up and down the neighborhood so they weren't the only people to do that. Lots of veggies and everybody grew grapes and made wine. However, nobody does that much anymore. I guess there are laws against it. Not the vegetables, the chickens i mean. I guess us land deprived lack of money to buy any urbanites are pretty screwed. Although I think my survival skills are quite honed.

I really do hope the panic button is broke though.

[SoNotHer]

That's been my belief and plan. ;-)


I am certainly not counting on SS, money, retirement programs or anything administrated by our government. My retirement plan is owning a big chunk of land free and clear, stock piles of non-gmo organic seeds, lots of hens, more fruit and nut trees and the knowledge to sustain no matter how fucked up it gets.

I do depend on money but could also do without it. Now that, to me, is the ultimate freedom

[Cin]

They haven't got enough money they are hoarding. Let's find ways for them to get more. I mean the most we can expect from them is that they will have more business lunches with their 35% tips and maybe some extra landscaping and car washing...


Just Say No to Corporate Greed

Repatriation. It's a word many schoolchildren probably haven't yet learned to define or even seen very often outside of spelling bees. But when it comes to corporate taxes, repatriation is the cornerstone of an idea that has the potential to severely hurt millions of children and parents and widen the already historic and unconscionable gap between the rich and the poor.

In its simplest definition, repatriation is bringing something back to its country of origin—returning it back home. One of the solutions to the jobs crisis being proposed by some of our Congressional leaders and lobbied for aggressively by some of the country's richest corporations is a rehash of an old experiment: enacting a repatriation tax holiday that would temporarily allow U.S.-based multinational companies to bring home profits they currently hold overseas at a 5.25 percent tax rate, instead of the usual 35 percent corporate tax rate. Under current tax law, multinational companies generally pay no U.S. corporate taxes on foreign income until those profits are brought back to the U.S. As the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP) explains, “This effectively allows such firms to defer payment of the U.S. corporate income tax on their overseas profits indefinitely, even though they may obtain an immediate tax deduction for many expenses incurred in supporting the same overseas investments. This can produce a negative U.S. corporate income tax—that is, a net government subsidy—for overseas operations. In addition to causing the federal government to lose tax revenue, this structure gives multinationals a significant incentive to shift economic activity—as well as their reported profits—overseas.”

The argument for the repatriation holiday is that giving corporations a huge incentive to bring profits back right now—in the form of an enormous tax break—would bring billions of dollars back to the U.S. economy that would be reinvested and provide a big stimulus to our economy. Corporate proponents and their Congressional bullies argue this will create desperately needed jobs.

But the last time this was tried, under a 2004 Bush Administration plan, it didn't work out that way. Instead, as CBPP points out, “The evidence shows that firms mostly used the repatriated earnings not to invest in U.S. jobs or growth but for purposes that Congress sought to prohibit, such as repurchasing their own stock and paying bigger dividends to their shareholders. Moreover, many firms actually laid off large numbers of U.S. workers even as they reaped multi-billion-dollar benefits from the tax holiday and passed them on to shareholders.” Many economists and scholars believe that if corporations get their way and get another repatriation holiday, history will repeat itself—and once again the corporations and their shareholders, not American workers, families, and children, will be the only winners.

The nonpartisan congressional Joint Committee on Taxation has estimated the holiday would cost the federal government about $80 billion over ten years in lost revenue. The Economic Policy Institute's Andrew Fieldhouse puts it this way: “While there are numerous job creation proposals that would meaningfully lower unemployment, some lawmakers are pushing counterproductive policies disguised as job creation packages. The proposed repeat of the corporate tax repatriation holiday is one such wolf in sheep's clothing.” When the nation is already facing a jobs crisis and many Congressional leaders are threatening to slash nutrition, child care, and other safety net programs children and families rely on as a means of balancing the budget, revisiting a failed idea instead of coming up with real solutions and real jobs is a threat children and families and our country cannot afford. As the Occupy Wall Street protestors are shouting, let's “just say no to corporate greed” and to Congresspeople who continue to raid from the poor and children to curry favor and campaign contributions from the rich.

[Sachita]

I am certainly not counting on SS, money, retirement programs or anything administrated by our government. My retirement plan is owning a big chunk of land free and clear, stock piles of non-gmo organic seeds, lots of hens, more fruit and nut trees and the knowledge to sustain no matter how fucked up it gets.

I do depend on money but could also do without it. Now that, to me, is the ultimate freedom


Oh I should have said I already own my chunk of land free and clear. I refinanced and took 25 acres off my mortgage in the event my mortgage company got freaky. I also put my greenhouse on the free and clear land. I already have the seeds but continue to get things. I have hens but want 100 going all the times.

I need help :(

[SoNotHer]

Smart. Smart. Smart. I've been doing the same and trying to pick up a few skills in the process. ;-)

I tell anyone, my students included, to invest in land, and preferably land with good soil and water.


Oh I should have said I already own my chunk of land free and clear. I refinanced and took 25 acres off my mortgage in the event my mortgage company got freaky. I also put my greenhouse on the free and clear land. I already have the seeds but continue to get things. I have hens but want 100 going all the times.

I need help :(

[persiphone]

Urban dweller here. Never owned any land, never even a house. Came from a long line of no land no home people. Although I will say my grandparents raised chickens in the backyard of 3 story tenement building when i was kid. They also slaughtered pigs and god knows what else down in the basement. I remember roosters crowing up and down the neighborhood so they weren't the only people to do that. Lots of veggies and everybody grew grapes and made wine. However, nobody does that much anymore. I guess there are laws against it. Not the vegetables, the chickens i mean. I guess us land deprived lack of money to buy any urbanites are pretty screwed. Although I think my survival skills are quite honed.

I really do hope the panic button is broke though.

slight derail/

there are ways around this! on my now defunct previous laptop i had plans downloaded for a complete indoor container garden that used old plastic containers and hung on the wall. :) ya just gotta think out of the urban box a little bit. :)

/slight derail

[persiphone]

Oh I should have said I already own my chunk of land free and clear. I refinanced and took 25 acres off my mortgage in the event my mortgage company got freaky. I also put my greenhouse on the free and clear land. I already have the seeds but continue to get things. I have hens but want 100 going all the times.

I need help :(


more slight derailing/

ever thought of a commune?

/more slight derailing

[Sachita]

more slight derailing/

ever thought of a commune?

/more slight derailing

yes and would

[persiphone]

yes and would



don't quote me, but i *think* there are groups that will help you start a CSA farm. look into it :) there might even be funding available to help you get started.

[SoNotHer]

Yes, and you can find folks who want to work in exchange for room, board and experience through -

http://www.wwoof.org/

That was my plan with my farm, but life presented a personal derail (nice term P.). In the wake of the divorce, I'm looking at the next step.

Intentional communities, permacultual and others, are happening.


don't quote me, but i *think* there are groups that will help you start a CSA farm. look into it :) there might even be funding available to help you get started.

[Sachita]

Yes, and you can find folks who want to work in exchange for room, board and experience through -

http://www.wwoof.org/

That was my plan with my farm, but life presented a personal derail (nice term P.). In the wake of the divorce, I'm looking at the next step.

Intentional communities, permacultual and others, are happening.

been there, done most of this already. In theory it sounds great but the reality another story.

the farm is available to anyone who wants to live on it, grow on it and start csa or anything else. I just don't have housing. In the spring I'll have a bathroom and shower built off the barn. A few people talked about getting rent to own sheds and converting them so all they need is a shower and potty. Or build a treehouse, cobb house, tent. I have plenty of woods and a big creek all along one whole side.

I'm sure I started a thread some time ago. I'm always open to anything that has to do with sustainable living

[persiphone]

Yes, and you can find folks who want to work in exchange for room, board and experience through -

http://www.wwoof.org/

That was my plan with my farm, but life presented a personal derail (nice term P.). In the wake of the divorce, I'm looking at the next step.

Intentional communities, permacultual and others, are happening.

aaahhh divorce. gotta love it. i wish we could divorce wall street. (trying to stay on topic) the only good thing to come out of things like divorces are the next steps. i hope yours are meaningful, adventurous, and bring you self accomplishment :) ever thought of getting involved in a CSA?

(ok i promise not to derail anymore)

[SoNotHer]

Ah, this made me laugh out loud. Thank you.

Oh, yeah, already have about the CSA. You're preaching to the choir, P. ;-)
But I do the same, so rock on.

Still laughing..... great sentiment to take the gym with me. Have a good one my OWS kindred spirits!


aaahhh divorce. gotta love it. i wish we could divorce wall street. (trying to stay on topic) the only good thing to come out of things like divorces are the next steps. i hope yours are meaningful, adventurous, and bring you self accomplishment :) ever thought of getting involved in a CSA?

(ok i promise not to derail anymore)

[dreadgeek]

[COLOR="Purple"]there are antibiotic resistant genes in GMOs as well. what i find interesting is that there was DNA specifically engineered to be antibiotic resistant in a lab in America and then it was pumped into the food supply all nice and quiet.

Can you explain what you mean by "DNA specifically engineered to be antibiotic resistant" and "pumped into the food supply"? I ask for a couple of reasons:

1) Antibiotics do not, strictly speaking, affect 'naked' DNA. (Here I mean DNA that isn't in some living thing.) Antibiotics affect, well, bacterials but not viruses (RNA) and DNA is RNA with an extra strand, some sugar and one different base (T in DNA is U in RNA). So what doesn't effect RNA also doesn't effect DNA.

2) What do you mean by "pumped into the food supply" in the context of DNA? This seems to violate the central dogma of molecular biology. Put simply, DNA codes for proteins. So DNA that isn't coding for something in the context of being in the presence of a living thing isn't' doing anything. So how can DNA, absent a body in which to express itself, be *doing* anything? Are you saying that it is making antibiotic resistant proteins? That doesn't really make sense unless you are talking about it being inside a living thing.

3) Are you saying that someone cooked up DNA as a bacteriophage (a virus that infects bacteria)? If so, why on Earth would they have it code for resistance to antibiotics since the whole purpose of a bacteriophage would be to try to kill a bacteria not make it more resistant to antibiotics. What's more, there's a far less expensive way they could get the same effect. Simply have people take too many antibiotics, not use them correctly, use a lot of antibacterial soaps so that we're constantly turning the selective volume on bacteria up to eleven. Wait, that's what we're doing now.

I will admit that I do not read all of the literature but I do try to keep up with what is happening in molecular genetics particularly as it relates to our ongoing battle against pathogens. I'm not aware of the work you're talking about and really am not sure that I understand what you're saying. I don't want to derail the thread so if you want to write me privately or put it on its own thread, I really would like to understand what it is you're saying. Thanks.


meanwhile, the media is all about telling us that OVERuse of antibiotics is the real problem...not that that ISN'T a problem...but i suspect it's not THE problem. same with the use of antibiotics in meat. is it a good practice? no. is it bad for you to eat meat that has been grown with antibiotics? probably. but what we're NOT talking about is the specifically engineered DNA that was specifically made to be antibiotic resistant floating around in GMO foods that are neither labeled on products nor regulated.


Actually, the explanation that it's because of the overuse of antibacterials is actually the most simple and the most likely. Since bacteria are living things and since all living things are subject to variation, Darwinian selection operates on bacteria just as it does everything else. Since antibiotics literally kill bacteria and do so by making various chemical tricks happen, any variation that made a bacteria more resistant to that chemical attack would cause it to leave around more descendants than others. What has been going on since we first started using antibiotics is we have been selecting for antibacterial resistance in TB, staph, e. coli, and every other bacterial pathogen we care about. We've been using antibacterials since 1940 so just over 70 years. Given the very fast generation times of most bacteria (every 24 minutes for e. coli, under ideal conditions) and the fact that bacteria are gregarious with their genes and will just share and pick them up from any old bacterial colony we should expect resistance to naturally evolve in a population. It would be remarkable if it didn't happen.

So here I have to ask which is more likely? That bacteria are subject to Darwinian selection and that introducing antibiotics into the ecology of bacteria would inevitably (and rather quickly) lead to strains of bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics OR someone for no good reason introduced antibiotic resistance into the ecology of mammal infecting bacteria *knowing* that resistance was already evolving? (It's been known that it was happening all of my adult life, I first encountered this in 1991.)


Cheers
Aj

[Cin]

Can you explain what you mean by "DNA specifically engineered to be antibiotic resistant" and "pumped into the food supply"? I ask for a couple of reasons:

1) Antibiotics do not, strictly speaking, affect 'naked' DNA. (Here I mean DNA that isn't in some living thing.) Antibiotics affect, well, bacterials but not viruses (RNA) and DNA is RNA with an extra strand, some sugar and one different base (T in DNA is U in RNA). So what doesn't effect RNA also doesn't effect DNA.

2) What do you mean by "pumped into the food supply" in the context of DNA? This seems to violate the central dogma of molecular biology. Put simply, DNA codes for proteins. So DNA that isn't coding for something in the context of being in the presence of a living thing isn't' doing anything. So how can DNA, absent a body in which to express itself, be *doing* anything? Are you saying that it is making antibiotic resistant proteins? That doesn't really make sense unless you are talking about it being inside a living thing.

3) Are you saying that someone cooked up DNA as a bacteriophage (a virus that infects bacteria)? If so, why on Earth would they have it code for resistance to antibiotics since the whole purpose of a bacteriophage would be to try to kill a bacteria not make it more resistant to antibiotics. What's more, there's a far less expensive way they could get the same effect. Simply have people take too many antibiotics, not use them correctly, use a lot of antibacterial soaps so that we're constantly turning the selective volume on bacteria up to eleven. Wait, that's what we're doing now.

I will admit that I do not read all of the literature but I do try to keep up with what is happening in molecular genetics particularly as it relates to our ongoing battle against pathogens. I'm not aware of the work you're talking about and really am not sure that I understand what you're saying. I don't want to derail the thread so if you want to write me privately or put it on its own thread, I really would like to understand what it is you're saying. Thanks.



Actually, the explanation that it's because of the overuse of antibacterials is actually the most simple and the most likely. Since bacteria are living things and since all living things are subject to variation, Darwinian selection operates on bacteria just as it does everything else. Since antibiotics literally kill bacteria and do so by making various chemical tricks happen, any variation that made a bacteria more resistant to that chemical attack would cause it to leave around more descendants than others. What has been going on since we first started using antibiotics is we have been selecting for antibacterial resistance in TB, staph, e. coli, and every other bacterial pathogen we care about. We've been using antibacterials since 1940 so just over 70 years. Given the very fast generation times of most bacteria (every 24 minutes for e. coli, under ideal conditions) and the fact that bacteria are gregarious with their genes and will just share and pick them up from any old bacterial colony we should expect resistance to naturally evolve in a population. It would be remarkable if it didn't happen.

So here I have to ask which is more likely? That bacteria are subject to Darwinian selection and that introducing antibiotics into the ecology of bacteria would inevitably (and rather quickly) lead to strains of bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics OR someone for no good reason introduced antibiotic resistance into the ecology of mammal infecting bacteria *knowing* that resistance was already evolving? (It's been known that it was happening all of my adult life, I first encountered this in 1991.)


Cheers
Aj

I don't want to derail the the thread either, but I do want to understand this as well. From what I can gather, and believe me gathering hurts my head, DNA used as markers in genetic engineering are somehow or other antibiotic resistant. I don't think it is a purposeful thing, it is a by product of using markers. At least that is what it sounded like to me. Then there is something about it being able to possibly do some kind of horizontal gene transfer thing, especially surrounding e-coli, which seems to be useful for genetic modification and we all have some so when we eat gmos that have this antibiotic resistant dna we might be developing it also. Or something like that anyway. Not sure how proven it is. Europe seems more disturbed by it than we are in the U.S. But even there some study decided it wasn't much of a threat to humans but two scientists disagreed and wanted an addendum added to the study. Or something like that. I can't find the study anymore. Read about it awhile ago. Anyway it doesn't sound like a great idea to me. And it seems like a more direct way to find oneself resistant to antibiotics. I think they have been doing this since 1970 or so. Does this make any sense?

[persiphone]

Can you explain what you mean by "DNA specifically engineered to be antibiotic resistant" and "pumped into the food supply"? I ask for a couple of reasons:

1) Antibiotics do not, strictly speaking, affect 'naked' DNA. (Here I mean DNA that isn't in some living thing.) Antibiotics affect, well, bacterials but not viruses (RNA) and DNA is RNA with an extra strand, some sugar and one different base (T in DNA is U in RNA). So what doesn't effect RNA also doesn't effect DNA.

2) What do you mean by "pumped into the food supply" in the context of DNA? This seems to violate the central dogma of molecular biology. Put simply, DNA codes for proteins. So DNA that isn't coding for something in the context of being in the presence of a living thing isn't' doing anything. So how can DNA, absent a body in which to express itself, be *doing* anything? Are you saying that it is making antibiotic resistant proteins? That doesn't really make sense unless you are talking about it being inside a living thing.

3) Are you saying that someone cooked up DNA as a bacteriophage (a virus that infects bacteria)? If so, why on Earth would they have it code for resistance to antibiotics since the whole purpose of a bacteriophage would be to try to kill a bacteria not make it more resistant to antibiotics. What's more, there's a far less expensive way they could get the same effect. Simply have people take too many antibiotics, not use them correctly, use a lot of antibacterial soaps so that we're constantly turning the selective volume on bacteria up to eleven. Wait, that's what we're doing now.

I will admit that I do not read all of the literature but I do try to keep up with what is happening in molecular genetics particularly as it relates to our ongoing battle against pathogens. I'm not aware of the work you're talking about and really am not sure that I understand what you're saying. I don't want to derail the thread so if you want to write me privately or put it on its own thread, I really would like to understand what it is you're saying. Thanks.



Actually, the explanation that it's because of the overuse of antibacterials is actually the most simple and the most likely. Since bacteria are living things and since all living things are subject to variation, Darwinian selection operates on bacteria just as it does everything else. Since antibiotics literally kill bacteria and do so by making various chemical tricks happen, any variation that made a bacteria more resistant to that chemical attack would cause it to leave around more descendants than others. What has been going on since we first started using antibiotics is we have been selecting for antibacterial resistance in TB, staph, e. coli, and every other bacterial pathogen we care about. We've been using antibacterials since 1940 so just over 70 years. Given the very fast generation times of most bacteria (every 24 minutes for e. coli, under ideal conditions) and the fact that bacteria are gregarious with their genes and will just share and pick them up from any old bacterial colony we should expect resistance to naturally evolve in a population. It would be remarkable if it didn't happen.

So here I have to ask which is more likely? That bacteria are subject to Darwinian selection and that introducing antibiotics into the ecology of bacteria would inevitably (and rather quickly) lead to strains of bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics OR someone for no good reason introduced antibiotic resistance into the ecology of mammal infecting bacteria *knowing* that resistance was already evolving? (It's been known that it was happening all of my adult life, I first encountered this in 1991.)


Cheers
Aj


when creating GMO food, a gene selected for antibiotic resistance is spliced into DNA of plant cells. i'm gonna copy and paste a couple things for you:

Antibiotic Resistance Marker Genes in Genetically Engineered Foods
2002-06-19

Executive Summary



No federal laws have ever been passed to govern the regulation of genetically engineered foods and crops. The regulations in place, cobbled together under existing statutes, require no mandatory pre-market or post-market health testing. When the regulations were legally challenged in the 1980s, the court found they were flawed but did not set them aside, reasoning that they were only an initial effort to set policy. Instead, the regulations remain largely in place, although weakened over time. One result of this lax oversight is that potentially unsafe practices, such as the inclusion of antibiotic resistance marker genes, have gone forward with far too little scientific and public debate and scrutiny.

Many genetically engineered crops on the market currently contain antibiotic resistance marker genes because of the imprecision of the gene insertion process. Scientists use these genes to determine whether a gene has inserted itself into a target organism. As a result of incorporating these antibiotic resistance genes, these crops threaten the already growing problem of antibiotic resistance, which the world medical community acknowledges as a serious public health concern. Infectious diseases are responsible for one-quarter of all the deaths in the world, second only to cardiovascular diseases. As new strains of bacteria and viruses emerge that are resistant to drugs and antibiotics, infections become more difficult to treat.

The market for genetically engineered crops hinges in large part upon their acceptance by food processors. Food companies such as Kraft Foods, the largest food company in the United States and the second largest in the world, can join the call for an end to antibiotic resistance marker genes and tell biotechnology companies they do not want to put their customers at risk. Corporations have set a precedent for this type of action: McDonald's and other large corporate consumers of chicken have played a significant role in reducing in the use of antibiotics fed to chickens for non-therapeutic purposes. If food processors, as potential customers, clearly articulate that antibiotic resistance marker genes are unacceptable, manufacturers will have no incentive to continue their use.

Antibiotic resistance marker genes are just one example of how genetically engineered crops should be better regulated, so products that should never make it to market do not, and health concerns are addressed before, not after, products are commercialized. In order to accomplish this goal with regards to antibiotic resistance marker genes, products on the market with them should be removed, and no new products should be approved that contain antibiotic resistance marker genes. In addition, the state Public Interest Research Groups, along with our coalition partners in Genetically Engineered Food Alert, have issued the following call to action:

Genetically engineered food ingredients or crops should not be allowed on the market unless:

1) Independent safety testing demonstrates they have no harmful effects on human health or the environment,
2) They are labeled to ensure the consumer's right to know, and
3) The biotechnology corporations that manufacture them are held responsible for any harm.



~and to answer the technical questions (and thanks i know what a phage is lol!)


Horizontal gene transfer

Horizontal gene transfer has been reported between distantly related bacteria, and from bacteria to
yeast, mammalian cells and plant cells.
The few examples of transfer from plants to bacteria indicated by DNA sequence comparisons and
the lack of experimental confirmation suggest that the frequency of evolutionary successful gene
transfer from plants to bacteria is extremely low. However this inference is based on a small number
of experimental studies and indications in the scientific literature.
Detection of horizontal gene transfer events is difficult due to the limitations of the techniques
available. Unequivocal proof requires isolation of the putative transformed bacteria for thorough
genetic characterisation.
The rate of gene transfer from plants to bacteria is insignificant compared to gene transfer between
micro-organisms. Almost any type of bacterium has the potential to transfer DNA to any other type
of bacterium if it contains a broad host range gene transfer element.

Antibiotic resistance genes and human health

The presence of the antibiotic resistance gene by itself is not associated with any adverse health
effects.
There is in vitro evidence that free DNA in human saliva is capable of transforming a naturally
competent human oral bacterium (Mercer et al, 1999). Since the regions preceding the stomach are
likely to have the highest concentrations of intact DNA entering with the diet further research is
needed to establish whether transformation of oral bacteria occurs at significant frequencies in vivo.
Although most ingested DNA is likely to be degraded and diluted in the human gastro-intestinal
tract, natural transformation of gut epithelial cells or micro-organisms cannot be completely ruled
out.
Research in mice indicates that DNA can survive digestion and uptake by gut epithelial cells occurs,
however at levels of DNA intake unlikely to be encountered in a normal diet (Schubbert et al, 1997).
The mechanism of DNA uptake by gut epithelial cells is unknown and its significance is unclear.
If DNA uptake does occur in humans critical factors are the presence of regulatory sequences that
allow gene expression and the presence of selective pressure. Without selective pressure it is highly.......

......blahblahblah.....i can attach that entire pdf to your email if you like. :)


i understand that by the act of processing foods...let's take a box of Cheez-Its for example (a common GMO containing food)....clearly bacterias and therefore their DNA would not survive the process of the making of a Cheez-It. so the bacteria itself dies, but where does the DNA litter go? also, GMO food products are being fed to our meat supply, while simultaneously being fed antibiotics or being injected. (actually i think it's strictly in the feed now cuz injections are too expensive) we then, eat that meat, and not always overly well done. to me, it seems like the bacteria or even the DNA litter of said bacteria were to survive it would be here. however, stranger things have happened.

[Ebon]

Occupy Update from RT (the only real news station left)

2NekoUXgX2k

Added another video

-dq7e5f7WZc

[persiphone]

I don't want to derail the the thread either, but I do want to understand this as well. From what I can gather, and believe me gathering hurts my head, DNA used as markers in genetic engineering are somehow or other antibiotic resistant. I don't think it is a purposeful thing, it is a by product of using markers. At least that is what it sounded like to me. Then there is something about it being able to possibly do some kind of horizontal gene transfer thing, especially surrounding e-coli, which seems to be useful for genetic modification and we all have some so when we eat gmos that have this antibiotic resistant dna we might be developing it also. Or something like that anyway. Not sure how proven it is. Europe seems more disturbed by it than we are in the U.S. But even there some study decided it wasn't much of a threat to humans but two scientists disagreed and wanted an addendum added to the study. Or something like that. I can't find the study anymore. Read about it awhile ago. Anyway it doesn't sound like a great idea to me. And it seems like a more direct way to find oneself resistant to antibiotics. I think they have been doing this since 1970 or so. Does this make any sense?



antibiotic resistant genes are 'selected' and then 'farmed' in labs. perhaps i should have used those words. to me that is creating, or advancing the existence of antiobiotic resistant bacteria.

[SoNotHer]

Ain't that the truth. What would we do without RT and Democracy Now?

Occupy Update from RT (the only real news station left)

2NekoUXgX2k

[SoNotHer]

"The police protect and serve the one percent." Great interview and context for this. Olsen is going to need brain surgery - quite a price to pay for standing peacefully in support of a movement he was selfishly committed to.

This movement is bringing some festering issues to a long-in-coming head.


Occupy Update from RT (the only real news station left)

2NekoUXgX2k

Added another video

-dq7e5f7WZc

[atomiczombie]

Occupy Update from RT (the only real news station left)

2NekoUXgX2k

Added another video

-dq7e5f7WZc

That Tea Party guy in the second video is ON CRACK. O.o

[Cin]

antibiotic resistant genes are 'selected' and then 'farmed' in labs. perhaps i should have used those words. to me that is creating, or advancing the existence of antiobiotic resistant bacteria.

You know I can't really say I completely understand this stuff. What you posted in response to dreedgeek is the easiest to follow I've read so far. But i must be missing some important basic information that would enable me to follow what is being explained more easily. I don't usually have reading comprehension issues but...

What I do get is that I would like to avoid consuming this crap. However, it doesn't seem like there is any way for me to know if the food I am eating has been genetically modified or if it has if it contains antibiotic resistant genes. At least I think that's true.

anyway thanks for the information.

[atomiczombie]

Hmm, they might be starting to notice that a little backlash is happening. It will be interesting to see what happens by Nov.5th - national Bank Transfer Day.

It looks like Bank of America might be on its own. After the nation’s second-largest bank by assets got excoriated by consumers and politicians for planning to charge debit-card users an additional fee for purchases, other major banks indicated Friday they are canceling their plans to adopt similar programs. JPMorgan Chase, one of the first big banks to test such fees, has decided it won't adopt them. U.S. Bancorp, Citigroup, PNC Financial Services, and KeyCorp also say they won't use the fees. Wells Fargo, however, is still testing a $3 monthly fee in five states. "I generally think customers don't want to be nickeled and dimed," said the head of retail products at PNC.

LINK: http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/10/28/big-banks-backtrack-on-debit-fees.html

[Toughy]

I wish they would get Olsen OUT of Highland Hospital and over to the SF VA Medical Center where they have tons of experience with traumatic brain injury. I am sure he is stable enough for a 45 minute ambulance ride to the VA or they could fly him in a helicopter....I believe both Highland and the VA have landing pads.

[Toughy]

Wells Fargo is eliminating it's free checking accounts except for those with $5,000 balances starting Nov 15 (in CA for sure....don't know about the rest of the country). You can still get a free savings if you transfer $75 bucks a month from your (not free) checking to your (free) savings. Both used to be free if you had direct deposit to checking and transfered the 75 to savings.

[persiphone]

You know I can't really say I completely understand this stuff. What you posted in response to dreedgeek is the easiest to follow I've read so far. But i must be missing some important basic information that would enable me to follow what is being explained more easily. I don't usually have reading comprehension issues but...

What I do get is that I would like to avoid consuming this crap. However, it doesn't seem like there is any way for me to know if the food I am eating has been genetically modified or if it has if it contains antibiotic resistant genes. At least I think that's true.

anyway thanks for the information.

it's not you. it's complicated crap. there are lists of processed foods that are GMO. a good guidleline is that if it has corn, soy, or canola and hfcs (which is like 90% of what's on store shelves then you can pretty much bet it's a GMO product. lemme see if i can find a current list....

ok i found a pretty complete one here:

http://opposingdigits.com/forums/about52.html

edited cuz i'm tired and therefore repeating myself.

*sigh* last edit i swear. so a recent study was done on the levels of antibiotic resistant bacteria on commercial meat. the levels were astonishing. turkey ranked the worst, followed by pork, then beef, then chicken. and they tell you not rinse your poultry anymore because the splash spreads this antibiotic resistant bacteria around your kitchen.

[SoNotHer]

To put it simply, there are proverbial genies pressure-popping out of bottle after bottle. Our food and medicine production has become like climate change - a runaway experiment that has vaulted the petri dish and headed for open ground. We are in terra incognito in more ways than we know.

There is no road map for where we are heading.

it's not you. it's complicated crap. there are lists of processed foods that are GMO. a good guidleline is that if it has corn, soy, or canola and hfcs (which is like 90% of what's on store shelves then you can pretty much bet it's a GMO product. lemme see if i can find a current list....

ok i found a pretty complete one here:

http://opposingdigits.com/forums/about52.html

i think the scarier scenario is our meat supply. GMO products are fed to our meat and dairy supply while simultaneously being raised on regular antibiotics. we then eat that meat and in some cases some of that meat is not always cooked beyond recognition. so live bacteria can survive. interestingly, a study was recently done on levels of antibiotic resistant bacteria on grocery store meat and the numbers were astonishing. turkey ranked the highest, followed by pork, then beef and then chicken. and we eat that! it's so bad that they tell people now not to rinse poultry in your sink cuz the splash from the water droplets will spread that antibiotic resistant bacteria around your kitchen.

[persiphone]

To put it simply, there are proverbial genies pressure-popping out of bottle after bottle. Our food and medicine production has become like climate change - a runaway experiment that has vaulted the petri dish and headed for open ground. We are in terra incognito in more ways than we know.

There is no road map for where we are heading.

i agree and i love that visual. and yanno this has been going on for quite some time. but like i said in an earlier post, we weren't taught this stuff and the generations after us aren't being taught either. i don't think that's an accident. and navigating this info to get a clear understanding of exactly the whys and the hows of GMOs can be daunting, even with some heavy microbiology knowledge, let alone without it. you can see why they are so against labeling these products on store shelves. when i walk into a grocery store now, i feel surrounded by inedible products and my choices are severely limited if i wish to remain gmo free without the expense of buying all organic.

[atomiczombie]

Wells Fargo is eliminating it's free checking accounts except for those with $5,000 balances starting Nov 15 (in CA for sure....don't know about the rest of the country). You can still get a free savings if you transfer $75 bucks a month from your (not free) checking to your (free) savings. Both used to be free if you had direct deposit to checking and transfered the 75 to savings.

Yea well they are gonna be fucked on Bank Transfer Day. I am switching from B of A to Patelco next week. Credit Unions for the win baby!!

[persiphone]

good! they can fuck right the fuck off. i opened a credit union account. i'll be closing my Wells Fucker account on the 5th in solidarity.

and that reminds me....when i let my bank know last month that i was leaving them and opening a credit union account, the manager told me that they were "being forced by federal law to charge these fees." i was like really betch? srsly?

[atomiczombie]

it's not you. it's complicated crap. there are lists of processed foods that are GMO. a good guidleline is that if it has corn, soy, or canola and hfcs (which is like 90% of what's on store shelves then you can pretty much bet it's a GMO product. lemme see if i can find a current list....

ok i found a pretty complete one here:

http://opposingdigits.com/forums/about52.html

edited cuz i'm tired and therefore repeating myself.

*sigh* last edit i swear. so a recent study was done on the levels of antibiotic resistant bacteria on commercial meat. the levels were astonishing. turkey ranked the worst, followed by pork, then beef, then chicken. and they tell you not rinse your poultry anymore because the splash spreads this antibiotic resistant bacteria around your kitchen.

Wow that is an insanely long list of foods with genetically engineered ingredients. I kind of laughed when I saw so many Healthy Choice products.

[persiphone]

Wow that is an insanely long list of foods with genetically engineered ingredients. I kind of laughed when I saw so many Healthy Choice products.


i know! it's so depressing. the Pepperidge Farm products sent me right over the edge. and Oreos ffs! how am i sposed to live without Oreos? i found an alternative, but STILL!

[Dominique]

I recieved via the US mail a nice letter from Chase yesterday.

It started out by saying they noticed I haven't done any business with them in a while (how about NEVER) then went on to say that banking has become very diversified and they've attached a helpful check list for me to review and return, for any services that they may be able to assist me with.

My first thought was to shred it. Then I decided to put a sheet of blank
paper into the prepaid, self addressed envelope and just mail it back to them.

I decided, I would do this with all junk/solicitation mail I recieve from banking institutions. I hope every one will do this. We can nickle and dime them to death to.

[Sachita]

I am extremely concerned with Food Safety and as with everything else our government has failed us. It is one of my top issues right now. There are some informed people here. I would love to see a discussion in a new thread about this and perhaps some layman lingo. I try to talk to my family but they roll their eyes.

[Ebon]

Occupy News Update. This is sound only.

GjO7q4Y9U9o

[Cin]

it's not you. it's complicated crap. there are lists of processed foods that are GMO. a good guidleline is that if it has corn, soy, or canola and hfcs (which is like 90% of what's on store shelves then you can pretty much bet it's a GMO product. lemme see if i can find a current list....

ok i found a pretty complete one here:

http://opposingdigits.com/forums/about52.html

edited cuz i'm tired and therefore repeating myself.

*sigh* last edit i swear. so a recent study was done on the levels of antibiotic resistant bacteria on commercial meat. the levels were astonishing. turkey ranked the worst, followed by pork, then beef, then chicken. and they tell you not rinse your poultry anymore because the splash spreads this antibiotic resistant bacteria around your kitchen.
Thank you for this list. And for the information.

I can't imagine what to do now though. Cheerios and 3 Musketeers bars - say it ain't so. The staples. I can't even imagine life without cheerios.

[Dominique]

I am extremely concerned with Food Safety and as with everything else our government has failed us..

Yeah! Like Dairy and the antibiotics. Uugh. I get accused of doing the preachy thing when I start to point this stuff out.
People, in general, prefer denial.

[Ebon]

Yeah! Like Dairy and the antibiotics. Uugh. I get accused of doing the preachy thing when I start to point this stuff out.
People, in general, prefer denial.

Yeah same here. I got on the milk kick a few months back no one payed any attention. Oh well all I can do is tell them. I find that anything that is the "norm" or "programmed" into our brains some people go into denial when you try to tell them that it's hurting them or it's not true. Milk can't be bad the TV says it's good. :seeingstars:

[persiphone]

Thank you for this list. And for the information.

I can't imagine what to do now though. Cheerios and 3 Musketeers bars - say it ain't so. The staples. I can't even imagine life without cheerios.


i know! the horror! i really miss Wheatables, Milanos, Oreos, Snickers, and Capn' Crunch Berries. i found alternatives and even some new things at Trader Joe's. but i grew up on some of those items that are now GMO products so it's painful.

[AtLast]

Yeah! Like Dairy and the antibiotics. Uugh. I get accused of doing the preachy thing when I start to point this stuff out.
People, in general, prefer denial.

Yup- and our generation dealt with DES and it being put into prenatal vitamins given to all pregnant women by ob/gyns! Gee, and I developed cervical cancer... wonder why!

On another note- Michael Moore being in oakland drew a whole lot of people around here from far and near!

When I took my pooch to the dog park yesterday there were dozens of "new" people there with their dogs. All in groups and talking politics. So, of course I asked about what was going on. They were going to OWS in Oakland and found out about Point Isabel Regional Dog Park (largest in North America).

It was great until most of them allowed their dogs out in the restricted areas on the Bay which is a bird sanctuary for our shore birds. It is posted all over the artea. I was pissed. We have worked so hard to keep the park an off leash area as bird groups have tried to ban dogs entirely from that side of the park. This has been a 3 year battle. We finally got people educated about how dogs disturb nests and their scent blows the area for birds feeding. UGH!!

But, a few of us "regulars" talked to folks and pointed out the signs for the refuge areas and they left those areas with their dogs. No birds were chased or hurt, thankfully and there was no need to call the park rangers. I hope that they pass along the information to other OWS visitors that might take their pooches out there.

I know that some had to have seen the signs and just didn't pay attention. This happens a lot with people that are not from here and take dogs out to get some good exercise while on vacation, etc. That and not picking up after their dogs even though our park organization and the Regional Park Service has bags on posts all over the park and notices posted about owner's responsibilities in the park. Cleaning up after and also managing your dog in terms of any aggression or unsafe behaavior is fully covered under park rules. It is interesting to me that people often times think it is OK to do things like this in other people's "backyards," especially when they are political activist types engaging in protests that reflect a sense of community civil rights for all.

But, it all worked out and it looks like there are more and more people getting involved in the OWS movement.

[Cin]

MTV's Occupy Wall Street Shows: Horrifying Co-Option or Great Publicity?
As OWS seeps further into pop culture, these are ever-pressing questions. Here's why we're feeling optimistic about it.

http://www.alternet.org/story/152883/mtv%27s_occupy_wall_street_shows%3A_horrifying_co-option_or_great_publicity/

[Cin]

Michael Moore Explains OWS to Anderson Cooper: "This Movement is So Beyond, 'Hey Let's Get this Candidate Elected'"

Yesterday Anderson Cooper wondered where the Occupy movement is headed, what with the snow and the winter, and Michael Moore had an answer: "The snow and the winter is not going to stop the collective anger," he said from Occupy Oakland, while several supporters behind him shook their heads in agreement. "I think it will only harden peoples' resolve." And when Cooper wondered if candidates would "rise up" from the movement, or if the Democratic Party would be impacted? Moore explained it further: "This movement is so beyond, 'Hey let's get this candidate elected.' Those days are over... we've all participated... What did we get? Where are we? We're in the worst shape we have been in this country that I have seen in my lifetime."


oncRpIAPyIc&feature=player_detailpage

[persiphone]

Michael Moore Explains OWS to Anderson Cooper: "This Movement is So Beyond, 'Hey Let's Get this Candidate Elected'"

Yesterday Anderson Cooper wondered where the Occupy movement is headed, what with the snow and the winter, and Michael Moore had an answer: "The snow and the winter is not going to stop the collective anger," he said from Occupy Oakland, while several supporters behind him shook their heads in agreement. "I think it will only harden peoples' resolve." And when Cooper wondered if candidates would "rise up" from the movement, or if the Democratic Party would be impacted? Moore explained it further: "This movement is so beyond, 'Hey let's get this candidate elected.' Those days are over... we've all participated... What did we get? Where are we? We're in the worst shape we have been in this country that I have seen in my lifetime."


oncRpIAPyIc&feature=player_detailpage


i've always said that the people have a toleration threshold for corruption as long as they can provide for themselves. what really gets me is how the financial sector can take my savings from me, but when i expect it back it's suddenly "socialistic wealth spreading". what the hell is that? i've heard the argument that "when you invest in the market there is a risk of losing money" when having this convo with other people. sure there is. but when only the people who invest their money lose, and everyone involved in the control of that loss gains from it, then it's less like a loss and more like piracy. i want it back.

[SoNotHer]

"I hope they're (the 400 who control more money than 150 million of us) are really thinking about how they overplayed their hand."

Is Peter Schiff drinking is on Koolaid or is did his CEO buddies take a pool and bet he wouldn't go into a protest and on TV and let that effluvia flow out of his mouth?

"Capitalism is an evil system set up to benefit the few at the expense of the many."

Brilliant - thank you for posting this.


Michael Moore Explains OWS to Anderson Cooper: "This Movement is So Beyond, 'Hey Let's Get this Candidate Elected'"

Yesterday Anderson Cooper wondered where the Occupy movement is headed, what with the snow and the winter, and Michael Moore had an answer: "The snow and the winter is not going to stop the collective anger," he said from Occupy Oakland, while several supporters behind him shook their heads in agreement. "I think it will only harden peoples' resolve." And when Cooper wondered if candidates would "rise up" from the movement, or if the Democratic Party would be impacted? Moore explained it further: "This movement is so beyond, 'Hey let's get this candidate elected.' Those days are over... we've all participated... What did we get? Where are we? We're in the worst shape we have been in this country that I have seen in my lifetime."


oncRpIAPyIc&feature=player_detailpage

[atomiczombie]

Michael Moore fuckin' rocks.

It was good to see people of color there with him. We need their participation in this movement and their voices should be heard.

[atomiczombie]

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz56/atomiczombie/GENERALSTRIKE_engish-662x1024.jpg

[persiphone]

this was from my town's Occupy

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20111029/UPDATE/111029007/1001

and while i'm not going to tape a dirty grody dollar to my face, i AM carrying a black sharpie around witth me and writing "occupy" on the front of every single bill that passes through my hands. i'd love to see this cash being passed around all over America.

[AtLast]

Michael Moore fuckin' rocks.

It was good to see people of color there with him. We need their participation in this movement and their voices should be heard.

He does rawk! I think just about all of his crew are POC, he makes real efforts to hire POC as well as women and not just tokens.

I am feeling that there is going to be much more going on with the OWS Oakland protests and events, especially in light of what happened last week. People are very upset with that young man getting hurt and Mayor Qwan's actions (in actions).

Scott Olsen is improving daily, thankfully. I plan on being there on the 4th in support of him and all of the 99ers that are trying to be heard. Somehow, we have got to make this a moment of change in the US.

[Cin]

Egyptians march from Tahrir Square to support Occupy Oakland protestors
http://boingboing.net/2011/10/28/tahrir.html

http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/tahrir5.jpg
I like that sign. THE SAME GOAL.

[Toughy]

local TV news says Olsen was released from hospital yesterday...

The CA Nurses Association has set up a tent on the Plaza

the Mayor says they can stay...

[Cin]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/111029071805-ows-snow-05-story-top.jpg

Occupy Wall St. face New York's first snow storm of the season Saturday without the benefit of propane tanks and generators that they had been using to cook food and keep warm.

The early season snowstorm was the result of unseasonably cold air mixing with a storm system on the East Coast. Forecasters predicted power outages and downed trees in some areas.

A day earlier, up to 40 firefighters removed the group's propane tanks and six generators, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. That left the demonstrators to battle the cold weather seeping through their tents, blankets and sleeping bags.

"These are fire hazards (and) against the law," Bloomberg said during his weekly WOR-AM radio show Friday. "Our first concern is safety."

Demonstrators described the removal as an attempt to restrict Internet use and make their lives more difficult as a cold front moved into the region.

Occupy Wall Street spokesman Ed Needham said the removal of the generators was "certainly a directed effort to thwart our situation." He said solar powered generators were being brought in to replace those taken.

"It makes us feel like this is a confrontational relationship between the city and the park, and that's not the type of relationship we're trying to foster," Needham said. "We'll do just fine this winter. Our volunteers are as creative and resourceful as they are committed."

[greeneyedgrrl]

"These are fire hazards (and) against the law," Bloomberg said during his weekly WOR-AM radio show Friday. "Our first concern is safety."


wth?? first concern is safety my ass... seems to me that the first concern is eviction... at the expense of safety. :(

[greeneyedgrrl]

Egyptians march from Tahrir Square to support Occupy Oakland protestors
http://boingboing.net/2011/10/28/tahrir.html

http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/tahrir5.jpg
I like that sign. THE SAME GOAL.

me too! i think it's pretty awesome! :)

[nowandthen]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/379730_211195945616151_209925509076528_458210_1220 754486_n.jpg

https://s-hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/390059_211196325616113_209925509076528_458212_1025 828116_n.jpg


https://www.facebook.com/occupydenver

[ruffryder]

Wells Fargo is eliminating it's free checking accounts except for those with $5,000 balances starting Nov 15 (in CA for sure....don't know about the rest of the country). You can still get a free savings if you transfer $75 bucks a month from your (not free) checking to your (free) savings. Both used to be free if you had direct deposit to checking and transfered the 75 to savings.

not true in Fl where I am. In fact they said they won't be charging for users to use the debit card. The only requirement for a free account is to have a savings account also and have $1 go to that everytime you use the debit card which you can transfer the funds back to checking if you want.

At least 20 arrested in Denver Occupy. http://www.9news.com/news/article/227022/339/Some-Occupy-Denver-protesters-arrested-pepper-sprayed-

[atomiczombie]

8f57ofJNs4E

[SoNotHer]

Great photos and stories, folks. Thank you for posting them :-)

This is some of the most disturbing footage I've seen from the protests and a longer look at what happened to Scott Olsen. As they carried Olsen away and out of the line of fire, the brave protesters yelled back at the police, "Cowards."


http://abcnews.go.com/US/us-vets-suffering-unemployment-homelessness-support-occupy-protests/story?id=14841972


http://www.timesunion.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=1705331&width=628&height=471

[ruffryder]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/300093_287417844613091_280729295281946_912815_5319 53167_n.jpg

[nowandthen]

Angela Davis - Occupy Philly (1 of 2)- Oct 28, 2011 - YouTube

Occupy Philly - Oct 28, 2011 - YouTube

[atomiczombie]

Angela Davis - Occupy Philly (1 of 2)- Oct 28, 2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n5yjNBTIFk&feature=related)

Occupy Philly - Oct 28, 2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-75S6QAo_YA&feature=related)

Fixed your links:

1n5yjNBTIFk

-75S6QAo_YA

[atomiczombie]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/300093_287417844613091_280729295281946_912815_5319 53167_n.jpg

I think that pic was ripped from an old incident in Oakland that happened in 2003.

[Cin]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/28/article-2054752-0E91ACBF00000578-819_634x440.jpg

Bruise: Occupy Oakland protester Shamus Collins claims he was shot with a rubber bullet as he went to the aid of injured Iraq war veteran Scott Olsen at a new encampment in Frank H. Ogawa Plaza in Oakland, California

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054752/Occupy-Wall-Street-Is-proof-police-fired-rubber-bullets-Occupy-Oakland-battle.html#ixzz1cGar7n00

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7541/433190207.jpg
Here's someone whose been shot in the face by a rubber bullet at Occupy Oakland:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/26/1030222/-BREAKING-PHOTOS:-Images-CONTRADICT-Oakland-PD-Press-Release-on-Rubber-Bullets

[Medusa]

I'm just catching up on this thread but have been watching the news and sending emails all over the place.

I'm beyond grossed out at what happened in Oakland and Denver and other cities where it seems that the right to gather and protest has now become a criminal action.

[Cin]

Phillip Becerra, was shot in the face with pepper bullets.
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/phillip%20becerra.jpg
"They pepper sprayed me and I fell and then went to pour water on my face," says Becerra, "When I got back up, I was shot in the face. I had to go to the hospital to have the wound treated."
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2011/10/occupy_denver_riot_squad_rubber_bullets_arrests.ph p

The arrests appeared to be a violation of First Amendment rights in the U.S. Constitution that allow for people to peacefully assemble, said attorney David Raybin, a former prosecutor.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/30/article-0-0E97E2DB00000578-446_634x411.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055243/Occupy-Denver-Police-use-rubber-bullets-pepper-spray-protesters.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[Cin]

Rudy Giuliani said the city should move the protesters out, citing public safety and health hazards.

"Enough is enough," the former mayor said. "We can't allow this to go on forever and ever. It sets a bad precedent ... [and] diverts police resources from public safety."


Yes, one could say police resources have become the antithesis of public safety.

[Soon]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n_Vtvu0pNAc/Tq12ujgMgfI/AAAAAAABK4o/twwGcoo3ITo/s400/tax-the-1-percent-d.jpg

"On Saturday over 1000 Americans laid their bodies down on a San Francisco beach to spell out “TAX THE 1%.” This protest was just the latest, and possibly most spectacular yet, in the wave of protests that have swept the nation since protesters occupied Wall Street, launching the “We are the 99%” movement." (Tipped by JMG reader Andrew)

[Toughy]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n_Vtvu0pNAc/Tq12ujgMgfI/AAAAAAABK4o/twwGcoo3ITo/s400/tax-the-1-percent-d.jpg

"On Saturday over 1000 Americans laid their bodies down on a San Francisco beach to spell out “TAX THE 1%.” This protest was just the latest, and possibly most spectacular yet, in the wave of protests that have swept the nation since protesters occupied Wall Street, launching the “We are the 99%” movement." (Tipped by JMG reader Andrew)

This event has been going on for years......a different message each year. This year it is about the 1%

http://sfist.com/2011/10/28/tomorrow_human_tax_the_rich_banner.php

if you search you can find all the human banners they have done....

[Toughy]

There has been conversation around the word 'occupy' and some of the goals of the many affinity groups involved in this coalition.

One of the things I learned, in my years as an activist, is coalition building is messy....much like democracy. There are always things individuals and the various affinity groups disagree about. When you seek to organize around a commonality....in this case the unfair distribution of wealth and how to rememdy that problem...you always HAVE TO build coalition with those you may disagree with about other issues.

My years taught me that WAR (a berkeley based anarchy group) will always show up. They are generally the ones who break store windows, set fire to dumpsters, throw rocks and bottles at police, and generally try to provoke police. What makes me sad is the po po take the bait. They don't have to do that. The po po, in all their protective gear, can simply not react. Actually they should be there to direct traffic and provide assistance to those who are involved in protest march/rally/gatherings. The police should be my friend........my nephew is a cop.........I can't imagine him with riot gear, tear gas and rubber bulletts........

Actually they can NOT wear all that gear and show up in their regular uniforms to aid and assist protesters in their right to free assembly and the right to occupy the streets. This is actually what happened in San Francisco in the very early years of the GRID/AIDS/ HIV protests. The po po WALKED with us when we marched. They were there to protect and serve protesters. SF got a new police chief and that all stopped and the violence began. Diane Feinstein (the new mayor) ordered the police to allow the White Night riots, however she neglected to control those police who came into the Castro for revenge.

The Health Department can engage in constructive dialogue on the health and safety issues involved in long term tent encampments. The Health Department (and the police) are there to help and serve the community. They should be doing that. If there are health issues, then the Health Department should act in concert with the encampment to insure the health of those people. Work with them around sanitation and food safety. Figure out how to have clean toliets and handwashing stations. Figure out how the police will deal with any violence that might occur within the encampment.

It is encumbant on EVERYONE, government and citizens, to work together so the experiment of democracy in the US can continue. Government IS the people.

If we are to build solid useful coalitions that will bring about equality for everyone and equitable distribution of wealth that creates a solid middle class....we MUST take the good with the bad. Coalitions are never easy, but organizing around those things we share in common is the only way to change the system.

I gots lots o issues with anarchists, communists, tea party folks and others. However I am willing to work with them where we agree.

I'm rambling now and will stop

[Toughy]

Aj..........you have done a good job of negative dissection of the socialist part of the coalition.

Do you have anything positive to say about the coalition? How about something constructive about how to build coalition in the face of serious differences within a common goal?

[ruffryder]

Oregon police arrest about 30.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/ore-police-arrest-about-1212991.html

[Toughy]

Are there conversations with the police, health department, politicians, sanitation department, every other aspect of city/county government appropriate to tent encampments and the appropriate Occupy contact folks? All the Occupy encampments that I have visited or heard about, on KPFA free radio and other media, have contact people for all these areas. Are both sides reaching out to reach equitable agreements?

I have heard and read of both sides (across the country) reaching out to each other in the last few days. Perhaps Oakland will serve as a catalyst for useful partnerships that re-enforce democracy and our Constitution.

[Sachita]

Are there conversations with the police, health department, politicians, sanitation department, every other aspect of city/county government appropriate to tent encampments and the appropriate Occupy contact folks? All the Occupy encampments that I have visited or heard about, on KPFA free radio and other media, have contact people for all these areas. Are both sides reaching out to reach equitable agreements?

I have heard and read of both sides (across the country) reaching out to each other in the last few days. Perhaps Oakland will serve as a catalyst for useful partnerships that re-enforce democracy and our Constitution.

That would be nice. Isn't that the whole point of this? There is going to be shit happening and unfortunately people get hurt. They want us to give up and we won't, no matter what.

And I'm so sick of the excuses about sanitation and yadda yadda- You can set up massive tent cities using tax payer money. Now use our money and get to work.

[Toughy]

I would remind folks that all those 'sit, lie' laws that are about homeless people and where they can be are being used against Occupy individuals and encampments.

Think about it the next time your local government wants to limit where, how and when homeless (and everyone) folks can be. It all sounds great when it comes to us not having to see homeless folks on the city streets, but not so great when applied to Occupy folks.

[Sachita]

I like the idea of the government making the banks/raping mortgaging institutions, take all the foreclosures and creating homes for the homeless but people bitched about property values, the government bitched about taxes and no one is fucking happy. So they can shut the fuck up about where they land or create housing or jobs for them.

It just goes a round and a round, a big wheel of lies, deception and excuses. Don't listen to them. Move forward, raise hell, don't stop talking and whenever possible make life difficult for them.

At some point larger statements will be made and it will cost "something". What are you willing to pay? What do you think the government will do if we all collectively stopped paying taxes? Can they throw us all in jail? If we shut down even a few of the largest corporations by boycotting we'll make a strong statement.

[persiphone]

i disagree with the premise that it's great when applied to homeless folks. we are all one step from homelessness and i've said that even before the housing bubble and burst. homelessness is a grim reality for many more that weren't homeless just a few years ago, hell just a few months ago. and many more will enter into homelessness before this is over. we are a very unfriendly nation when it comes to our homeless. we really need to gravely reconsider the state of our homeless situations. we make, via laws, homelessness a horrible void from which there is little escape. i think people don't realize how expensive it is to be poor, let alone homeless and not just for those that are trapped in it.

i really despise the idea that a homeless person is something "we shouldn't see". we actually should see it as a reminder that they are still people and they still should be entitled basic human rights and needs. it disgusts me the way we treat our homeless.

edited to add.....i dunno why everyone is so shocked and appalled by the protesters being subject to the same laws that the homeless are subject to. i don't consider myself better than anyone else. i find it appalling that people should think they are somehow above a lower class of human and therefore should be treated differently or better.

/mad as hell rant

[persiphone]

Oregon police arrest about 30.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/ore-police-arrest-about-1212991.html


the park in question is in The Pearl District which is a posh neighborhood. of course they don't want protesters there lol! gawd forbid should they have to look at protesters. kind of like the homeless......how distasteful. *sarcasm*

[Toughy]

What do you think the government will do if we all collectively stopped paying taxes? Can they throw us all in jail? If we shut down even a few of the largest corporations by boycotting we'll make a strong statement.


2 entirely different things going on here...

don't pay taxes then government stops.......what does that look like...no police, no fire, no sewer, no toll roads, no maintenance of roads, no SSI or SSDI or State Disability or medicare or medicaid or military pay, no one guarding jails and prisons, the list goes on and on .........not a good idea in my mind.......

Shutting down corporations is not the same thing as shutting down the government.

[Ebon]

Occupy Update

rUZqj7rhdN8

[AtLast]

2 entirely different things going on here...

don't pay taxes then government stops.......what does that look like...no police, no fire, no sewer, no toll roads, no maintenance of roads, no SSI or SSDI or State Disability or medicare or medicaid or military pay, no one guarding jails and prisons, the list goes on and on .........not a good idea in my mind.......

Shutting down corporations is not the same thing as shutting down the government.

And shutting down corporations and banks is exactly what is needed! The 1% are most likely sitting back and laughing about most of this. The idea that a few thousand citizens in the US are taking over public parks which is actually taking away the use of them from other 99%ers is probably quite funny to them. And the only way that that 1% will hear the 98% is through our political processes. We have an opportunity right in front of us- the 2012 general election. Isn't it time the TP and GOP support of Wall Street & banks is stopped? I love the OWS movement in spirit, but think that unless it gets focused on real solutions that the general public can rally behind and put into legislative action, it will not be an effective social movement. And these tactics have to be acceptable across the spectrum of the 99%. What can someone in their 20's have in common with a retirement aged person that has been screwed out of a pension, for example? How does OWS merge the needs across a very diverse 99% to effect change?

[Cin]

Excerpts from Article from Daily Kos - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/29/1031371/-Occupy:This-is-who-the-Denver-Police-raided?via=siderecent

At the Occupy Denver rally, the Police decided to send out riot police to 'crack down' on the protesters and clear the square.
I filmed and photographed the people in attendance, people of all ages and walks of life - all there to peacefully protest and march. In fact as you can see in this video, the speakers spoke out forcefully about remaining non-violent. At the end of the video is a group of kids I included that were there to protest but also to have fun - expressing their freedom of speech and assembly -part of being a free American citizen.
I included them because, well, LMFAO is awesome, and these kids were near the front of the capitol where the Riot police were standing. I assume they were met with the same force. I hope they are OK.
And watch the people in the video, young and old, including mothers with infants and Vets - were these people deserving of this?

VaAl4ZZ-x4M&feature=player_embedded

here was the police's reaction to the request to occupy the steps of the Capitol
IDTvdAYkKdg&feature

Was that necessary for a lady wanting a job?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6052/6292771129_10e2ca4387.jpg

A vet?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6114/6292749685_cc1bc8404f.jpg

A mother and child?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6043/6292748977_8e848f9f16.jpg

this dangerous mob of regular folks?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6221/6292747907_e61d2e3193.jpg

This is the guy who was trying to explain to the police that their permit included the Capitol Steps.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6039/6292754095_ff945477a7.jpg

These regular cops were polite, and even when the first riot police arrived, it seemed innocuous.

I left the rally then, frankly because the speakers doing the Mic Checks were telling the people that there would be no march up the Steps and that everyone should keep protesting back at Veterans Park.
So what happened Denver Police - Tell me why these people deserved bully clubs, guns and riot gear?

[MsMerrick]

Sorry if someone already posted this ?
I heard this guy, this morning on Mark Riley's Show, Radio 1600 AM or http://www.wwrl1600.com/ . ANd had to check out the Youtube. Perhaps what was even more speical, in the interview, he explains how many generations of his family have been in the Armed Forces, including the Police Department..So, unlike me..who grew up in a Liberal Pinko Anti - War , kind of Household.. He comes from a very different background . This is teh full version, well worth sitting through all of it...
[Orignal full version] 1 Marine vs. 30 Cops (By. J. handy) - YouTube
I guess i don;t have the embedding "thing" down exactly but .. I think you can access the link : )

[SoNotHer]

Sgt. Shamar Thomas has been on the thread, but it's worth a repost. He tells the police that 'this is not a combat zone and that there is no honor in hurting them (the protestors).' He's amazing. The link to the video works, but here it is again:

WmEHcOc0Sys

Sorry if someone already posted this ?
I heard this guy, this morning on Mark Riley's Show, Radio 1600 AM or http://www.wwrl1600.com/ . ANd had to check out the Youtube. Perhaps what was even more speical, in the interview, he explains how many generations of his family have been in the Armed Forces, including the Police Department..So, unlike me..who grew up in a Liberal Pinko Anti - War , kind of Household.. He comes from a very different background . This is teh full version, well worth sitting through all of it...
[Orignal full version] 1 Marine vs. 30 Cops (By. J. handy) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys)
I guess i don;t have the embedding "thing" down exactly but .. I think you can access the link : )

[Cin]

Take Five Minutes of Your Day to Keep Wall Street Occupied With This Amazing At-Home Activism Plan


2JlxbKtBkGM&feature=player_embedded

[SoNotHer]

Good videos and question. The more brutal and violent the police response, the more I realize how much we've lost en route to this place.

Excerpts from Article from Daily Kos - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/29/1031371/-Occupy:This-is-who-the-Denver-Police-raided?via=siderecent

At the Occupy Denver rally, the Police decided to send out riot police to 'crack down' on the protesters and clear the square.
I filmed and photographed the people in attendance, people of all ages and walks of life - all there to peacefully protest and march. In fact as you can see in this video, the speakers spoke out forcefully about remaining non-violent. At the end of the video is a group of kids I included that were there to protest but also to have fun - expressing their freedom of speech and assembly -part of being a free American citizen.
I included them because, well, LMFAO is awesome, and these kids were near the front of the capitol where the Riot police were standing. I assume they were met with the same force. I hope they are OK.
And watch the people in the video, young and old, including mothers with infants and Vets - were these people deserving of this?

VaAl4ZZ-x4M&feature=player_embedded

here was the police's reaction to the request to occupy the steps of the Capitol
IDTvdAYkKdg&feature

Was that necessary for a lady wanting a job?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6052/6292771129_10e2ca4387.jpg

A vet?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6114/6292749685_cc1bc8404f.jpg

A mother and child?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6043/6292748977_8e848f9f16.jpg

this dangerous mob of regular folks?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6221/6292747907_e61d2e3193.jpg

This is the guy who was trying to explain to the police that their permit included the Capitol Steps.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6039/6292754095_ff945477a7.jpg

These regular cops were polite, and even when the first riot police arrived, it seemed innocuous.

I left the rally then, frankly because the speakers doing the Mic Checks were telling the people that there would be no march up the Steps and that everyone should keep protesting back at Veterans Park.
So what happened Denver Police - Tell me why these people deserved bully clubs, guns and riot gear?

[theoddz]

I have to share this with you good folks. :|

It is really so true, and shocking.

It was on Facebook today, shared by one of my "liked" groups, "Americans Against the Tea Party".

AgAZlrB_O8A

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Cin]

And shutting down corporations and banks is exactly what is needed! The 1% are most likely sitting back and laughing about most of this. The idea that a few thousand citizens in the US are taking over public parks which is actually taking away the use of them from other 99%ers is probably quite funny to them. And the only way that that 1% will hear the 98% is through our political processes. We have an opportunity right in front of us- the 2012 general election. Isn't it time the TP and GOP support of Wall Street & banks is stopped? I love the OWS movement in spirit, but think that unless it gets focused on real solutions that the general public can rally behind and put into legislative action, it will not be an effective social movement. And these tactics have to be acceptable across the spectrum of the 99%. What can someone in their 20's have in common with a retirement aged person that has been screwed out of a pension, for example? How does OWS merge the needs across a very diverse 99% to effect change?

I’m not sure I agree that OWS needs to get focused on real solutions.

I think it’s important to bring attention to the issues. I think it might be the most important thing of all.

I don’t think things are going to get better any time soon.

I do think they will be getting significantly worse as time goes by.

Real solutions, legislative action…we can’t even occupy the Capital steps when we have a permit that allows us to do so. We can't even not get shot in the face with rubber bullets. We can't have peaceful protests without being tear gassed by the paramilitary police there to protect and serve the 1%.

I think the attention of the nation is being focused on the real problems courtesy of all the occupy movements. That is what is most necessary at this time.

None of this is going to go away because it can’t. And it can’t because of the degree of damage caused by the 1% and by their desire keep causing damage and their need to hoard their money and to continue to make tons more standing on our necks. Things have no other way to go.

There will be ample opportunity for real solutions.

I think the 99% or at least a large percentage of them, need help to recognize the depth of the problems. They need help to find a voice. Help to find the words to begin to articulate what they have understood intuitively. Something is very wrong. And it a part of the real solutions that people have the time and the help to figure out that their intuition is correct. There is something very wrong. And it's not caused by the poor. Or minorities. Or immigrants. Or queers. Or a lack of religious values. And then they need an outlet, a place to voice in their own words what they have discovered. That's OWS.

And I have no doubt whatsoever that plenty about the 99% is extremely funny to the 1%. I'm sure they laugh out loud and snicker amongst themselves at how hysterically funny it is that the 99% has believed giving more and more money and tax breaks to the 1% as well as passing laws to benefit the 1% and their corporations would somehow end well for the poor, and the working and middle class. I'm sure they are choking with laughter over that. But I seriously doubt OWS has been the source of many chuckles for the 1%.

[Toughy]

<snip> The idea that a few thousand citizens in the US are taking over public parks which is actually taking away the use of them from other 99%ers <snip>.

If memory serves, it was a few thousand folks who were involved in all the civil rights protests and marches, a few thousand who protested Vietnam, a few thousand people can do many many things.

I also think it's more than a few thousand when you start adding all the people in Occupy camps across the country, plus those who turn out for the marches. Oakland has consistently turned out a thousand people marching around the streets at 11:00pm........with a couple of thousand for the beginning of the marches/rallys. It's bigger than a few thousand.....probably bigger than any of the 60's protests.

I'm not sure what you mean by taking away the use of public parks. Nobody is doing that. If you go to Occupy SF....it's at Justin Herman Plaza across from the Ferry Building.......there are bunches of vendors selling stuff everywhere on that Plaza and the tourists certainly have not stopped going. The last time I was down there folks were playing boccia ball (however you spell that game of rolling a ball and knocking other players balls out of the way...it's Italian I think) on one of two spaces for that. Lots of folks reading all the signs and talking with protestors.

In Oakland, Frank H. Ogawa Plaza, is directly in front of City Hall. Occupy folks are camped out on the grassy area and using the steps of City Hall for their General Assembly every day. You can still go down there and sit on the benches and enjoy your lunch just like you always could.....

Business owners around City Hall and downtown are saying they are losing business because people are afraid to go down there. Who made them afraid? Certainly not the Occupy folks although they are getting the blame for it. It's the police who caused the violence. There are tents set up and there is a childcare tent and a first aid tent and a cooking tent, folks playing hacky sack, playing musical instruments, drumming ....what the hell is so scary about those things?

[theoddz]

Me??

It's still at the point of (relatively) peaceful protesting right now, but I think it's, ultimately and eventually, all going to culminate in a huge, multi-city street riot. Especially if and/or when those who cling to their addictions to money and influence manage to rig the 2012 national election. I even have this creepy feeling that it may even go multinationally around that time because the United States financial system is so interconnected with other governments and other influential financial systems.

My neighbor, whom I've always thought of as a bit of a conspiracy crackpot, has seemed to be, so far, right on target with what he stood out in the street in front of my house and told me would happen a couple of years ago. He said that, when enough ordinary working people had lost their jobs and didn't have a way to feed their families, the ordinary citizen would wake up and the protests would begin and, ultimately, the riots. Everything always seems to hinge on whose ox is getting gored.

We'll see.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Sachita]

Take Five Minutes of Your Day to Keep Wall Street Occupied With This Amazing At-Home Activism Plan


2JlxbKtBkGM&feature=player_embedded


This is GREAT!

[Ebon]

Me??

It's still at the point of (relatively) peaceful protesting right now, but I think it's, ultimately and eventually, all going to culminate in a huge, multi-city street riot. Especially if and/or when those who cling to their addictions to money and influence manage to rig the 2012 national election. I even have this creepy feeling that it may even go multinationally around that time because the United States financial system is so interconnected with other governments and other influential financial systems.

My neighbor, whom I've always thought of as a bit of a conspiracy crackpot, has seemed to be, so far, right on target with what he stood out in the street in front of my house and told me would happen a couple of years ago. He said that, when enough ordinary working people had lost their jobs and didn't have a way to feed their families, the ordinary citizen would wake up and the protests would begin and, ultimately, the riots. Everything always seems to hinge on whose ox is getting gored.

We'll see.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

I agree 100%. I also think that they are trying to use force to try to scare people into stopping protesting (because that always works :|) but instead I think it's pissing people off so I believe the riots are going to happen too.

[theoddz]

I agree 100%. I also think that they are trying to use force to try to scare people into stopping protesting (because that always works :|) but instead I think it's pissing people off so I believe the riots are going to happen too.

You know, not too long ago, someone compared the current situation, meaning the peaceful protesting, to a casserole dish with a piece of cling wrap stretched over the top. They said that the dish below was just slowly simmering, but getting hotter. It was just a matter of time until the heat from within created enough pressure to blow holes in the cling wrap on top. At that point, the hot food inside would blow out through the holes in the top and become like hot lava, spilling from a heated volcano, impossible to stop, at that point.

For some convoluted reason, that made complete sense to me and I've been thinking of that analogy ever since. Strange how we continually recall things like that as we watch these situations play out.

Thanks, Ebon. :)

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Sachita]

I’m not sure I agree that OWS needs to get focused on real solutions.

I think it’s important to bring attention to the issues. I think it might be the most important thing of all.

I don’t think things are going to get better any time soon.

I do think they will be getting significantly worse as time goes by.

Real solutions, legislative action…we can’t even occupy the Capital steps when we have a permit that allows us to do so. We can't even not get shot in the face with rubber bullets. We can't have peaceful protests without being tear gassed by the paramilitary police there to protect and serve the 1%.

I think the attention of the nation is being focused on the real problems courtesy of all the occupy movements. That is what is most necessary at this time.

None of this is going to go away because it can’t. And it can’t because of the degree of damage caused by the 1% and by their desire keep causing damage and their need to hoard their money and to continue to make tons more standing on our necks. Things have no other way to go.

There will be ample opportunity for real solutions.

I think the 99% or at least a large percentage of them, need help to recognize the depth of the problems. They need help to find a voice. Help to find the words to begin to articulate what they have understood intuitively. Something is very wrong. And it a part of the real solutions that people have the time and the help to figure out that their intuition is correct. There is something very wrong. And it's not caused by the poor. Or minorities. Or immigrants. Or queers. Or a lack of religious values. And then they need an outlet, a place to voice in their own words what they have discovered. That's OWS.

And I have no doubt whatsoever that plenty about the 99% is extremely funny to the 1%. I'm sure they laugh out loud and snicker amongst themselves at how hysterically funny it is that the 99% has believed giving more and more money and tax breaks to the 1% as well as passing laws to benefit the 1% and their corporations would somehow end well for the poor, and the working and middle class. I'm sure they are choking with laughter over that. But I seriously doubt OWS has been the source of many chuckles for the 1%.


I also get tired of hearing what Occupy should do. here's what I think...

There are so many agendas. It's not just about the financial companies but food safety, the way our so-called government programs operate, elections and countless other crimes that have happened against us. The real slap in the face is that we're paying for it with hard labor, blood, sweat and tears yet we are still treated like shit. We are no longer the priority but slaves to this 1%.

I think that everyone is "feeling" it and I'm hoping various groups start to spin off from this addressing the various problems and what the solutions might be. HOWEVER their backs are just not against the wall and if we want to see them listen, prompt change we need to force a hand. The only way is to show that we have the power to shut down banks and big business. This will mean sacrifices and it will cost jobs. But we can't expect to change the foundation if we don't rip down the old.

So what if they closed Walmart and the big box stores? Produce and supplies would cost more at local stores... for a while and demand couldn't possibly be met right away but it has a trickle effect. More local farming, more local business, etc you get the basic idea. We have been manipulated to believe this is the better way but as you can see it was a herding tactic and now we're paying for it.

Make a commitment to 'something". Write down your plan and how you plan to invest in this revolution. If you can't go sit and occupy spread the word and encourage others. Talk talk suggest suggest- today make a commitment to shop local and if it cost more, eat or do less. Stop using credit cards. Cash your checks and take your money out. Yea its a hassle, especially if you run a business. Start working on a plan now to sustain no matter how bad things get before they get better.

[nowandthen]

"the ordinary citizen would wake up"

~Theo~ :bouquet:[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

I found this sentence to be very concerning, I think it says so much about the issues of divisiveness. Who Is ordinary? The middle class mostly white? Because poor and homeless white and poc have been under employed and subjected to daily violence. It is a huge valley to cross to see that the 1% is using the military and the police to support the criminalization of the poor. Pitting the middle class against the poor is a great tool of the majority. We have seen it over and over divide and conquer. I do not want to go back to how it was, that leaves to many people out and for me that is the real issue. Class war is happening within the OWS as it does in every other movement. the 99% have different needs that is why there is not one point, there is no universal narrative.

[Sachita]

2 entirely different things going on here...

don't pay taxes then government stops.......what does that look like...no police, no fire, no sewer, no toll roads, no maintenance of roads, no SSI or SSDI or State Disability or medicare or medicaid or military pay, no one guarding jails and prisons, the list goes on and on .........not a good idea in my mind.......

Shutting down corporations is not the same thing as shutting down the government.


The first part about taxes is more of fantasy, however as it appears our taxes arent enough to keep all those things afloat anyhow. Wasn't it just a few months ago when all of that was at risk in the event of a government shut down? Let's face it Toughy a lot of that IS going to stop/end/ cease to exist anyhow. So I guess I we keep feeding the money pit and we're still fucked. lol

[Sachita]

I know a lot of people post videos and dont get a chance to watch them all BUT this is fucking brilliant! I'm so inspired by doing this I'm going to send back my son's junk mail, my mom's, whatever I can get a hold of. My son gets at least 4 or more letters asking to get yet another credit card, another loan.

If you do nothing else, do this. Pass it around facebook, email it, get everyone doing this. Its great



Take Five Minutes of Your Day to Keep Wall Street Occupied With This Amazing At-Home Activism Plan


2JlxbKtBkGM&feature=player_embedded

[SoNotHer]

Excellent point and post.


If memory serves, it was a few thousand folks who were involved in all the civil rights protests and marches, a few thousand who protested Vietnam, a few thousand people can do many many things.

I also think it's more than a few thousand when you start adding all the people in Occupy camps across the country, plus those who turn out for the marches. Oakland has consistently turned out a thousand people marching around the streets at 11:00pm........with a couple of thousand for the beginning of the marches/rallys. It's bigger than a few thousand.....probably bigger than any of the 60's protests.

I'm not sure what you mean by taking away the use of public parks. Nobody is doing that. If you go to Occupy SF....it's at Justin Herman Plaza across from the Ferry Building.......there are bunches of vendors selling stuff everywhere on that Plaza and the tourists certainly have not stopped going. The last time I was down there folks were playing boccia ball (however you spell that game of rolling a ball and knocking other players balls out of the way...it's Italian I think) on one of two spaces for that. Lots of folks reading all the signs and talking with protestors.

In Oakland, Frank H. Ogawa Plaza, is directly in front of City Hall. Occupy folks are camped out on the grassy area and using the steps of City Hall for their General Assembly every day. You can still go down there and sit on the benches and enjoy your lunch just like you always could.....

Business owners around City Hall and downtown are saying they are losing business because people are afraid to go down there. Who made them afraid? Certainly not the Occupy folks although they are getting the blame for it. It's the police who caused the violence. There are tents set up and there is a childcare tent and a first aid tent and a cooking tent, folks playing hacky sack, playing musical instruments, drumming ....what the hell is so scary about those things?

[SoNotHer]

I like this, and I'd like to think I've started my own personal revolution some time ago in a number of ways and for a number of reasons.

The one thing I've seen at OWS protest is some conflation of issues. I saw signs, for instance, protesting fluoride in water. I don't happen to agree that flourish belongs in water. But putting up a sign about it at an OWS protest is a little off topic and makes the movement look fractured and unfocused.

I also get tired of hearing what Occupy should do. here's what I think...

Make a commitment to 'something". Write down your plan and how you plan to invest in this revolution. If you can't go sit and occupy spread the word and encourage others. Talk talk suggest suggest- today make a commitment to shop local and if it cost more, eat or do less. Stop using credit cards. Cash your checks and take your money out. Yea its a hassle, especially if you run a business. Start working on a plan now to sustain no matter how bad things get before they get better.

[Cin]

Occupy Wall Street turns to pedal power
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/stationary-bike-zuccotti-screencap.jpg

The Occupy Wall Street protesters who were left without power after their gas-fueled generators were confiscated by New York City authorities on Friday may have found the idea solution in the form of a stationary bicycle hooked up to charge batteries.

Stephan Keegan of the non-profit environmental group Time’s Up showed off one of the bikes to The Daily News, explaining that OWS’s General Assembly has already authorized payment for additional bikes and that “soon we’ll have ten of these set up and we’ll be powering the whole park with batteries.”

Protester Lauren Minis told CBS New York, “We’ve got five bike-powered generator systems that are coming from Boston and we’ve got five more plus other ones that are going to supplement as well so we’re completely, completely off the grid.”

According to CBS, “Insiders at Occupy Wall Street say they expect to have their media center and the food service area fully powered and illuminated by Monday.”

“We need some exercise,” Keegan explained enthusiastically, “and we’ve got a lot of volunteers, so we should be able to power these, no problem. … We did an energy survey of the whole park, found out how much energy we were using. …. Ten will give us twice as much power.”

Keegan also boasted that the system is “very clean” and is environmentally superior not only to fossil fuel but even to solar panels, because it uses almost entirely recycled materials.

[Ebon]

Occupy Wall Street turns to pedal power
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/stationary-bike-zuccotti-screencap.jpg

The Occupy Wall Street protesters who were left without power after their gas-fueled generators were confiscated by New York City authorities on Friday may have found the idea solution in the form of a stationary bicycle hooked up to charge batteries.

Stephan Keegan of the non-profit environmental group Time’s Up showed off one of the bikes to The Daily News, explaining that OWS’s General Assembly has already authorized payment for additional bikes and that “soon we’ll have ten of these set up and we’ll be powering the whole park with batteries.”

Protester Lauren Minis told CBS New York, “We’ve got five bike-powered generator systems that are coming from Boston and we’ve got five more plus other ones that are going to supplement as well so we’re completely, completely off the grid.”

According to CBS, “Insiders at Occupy Wall Street say they expect to have their media center and the food service area fully powered and illuminated by Monday.”

“We need some exercise,” Keegan explained enthusiastically, “and we’ve got a lot of volunteers, so we should be able to power these, no problem. … We did an energy survey of the whole park, found out how much energy we were using. …. Ten will give us twice as much power.”

Keegan also boasted that the system is “very clean” and is environmentally superior not only to fossil fuel but even to solar panels, because it uses almost entirely recycled materials.

lol this is awesome! I bet Bloomberg is furious.

[atomiczombie]

Take Five Minutes of Your Day to Keep Wall Street Occupied With This Amazing At-Home Activism Plan


2JlxbKtBkGM&feature=player_embedded

I just gotta say this is an awesome idea and even though I don't get credit card offers, I am gonna ask my friends and family to save their envelopes for me. :)

[atomiczombie]

I just want to say thank you to everyone who is participating in this thread. You all inspire me and help me to keep up with the latest goings on. It's great that we all share this common passion for equality and justice. :)

[Sachita]

I like this, and I'd like to think I've started my own personal revolution some time ago in a number of ways and for a number of reasons.

The one thing I've seen at OWS protest is some conflation of issues. I saw signs, for instance, protesting fluoride in water. I don't happen to agree that flourish belongs in water. But putting up a sign about it at an OWS protest is a little off topic and makes the movement look fractured and unfocused.


lol I hear you. I started my revolution well over 10 years ago. Hell call me a rebel- save the whales, seals, planet, fuck the system.

But we are heading towards critical times and many people saw this coming long long ago. People are responsible for not only allowing it to happen but supporting the very venues that made it this way. Misinformed? Not always because we all have the right to research, investigate and not take things at face value. You're crazy to rely on agencies outside of yourself to protect every little thing. There is also good information amongst bullshit propaganda and its up to us to filter it, evaluate it and make choices. We've placed too faith outside of ourselves becoming lazy and overdependent.

As a universe we are full force in evolution and planetary change. If ever you were to become proactive and self sufficient, now is the time.

[Soon]

http://gawker.com/5855105/stephen-colbert-trolls-occupy-wall-street

[atomiczombie]

Thursday, November 17 · 10:00am - 11:30pm

Occupy Wall St.

On November 17th, Join the 99%

Resist austerity. Reclaim the economy. Recreate our democracy.

Occupy Wall Street, in solidarity with organized labor and the 99% around the world, will mobilize for a day of peaceful direct action to reject the economy that divides us and rebuild an economy that works for all. We will resist the banks and the government they control, reclaim our democracy, and recreate the society we want to see.

We call upon the 99% to join us in fighting austerity in the US and around the world.

Resist the 1% economy that drowns us in debt, forecloses on our homes, eliminates our jobs and closes our schools and hospitals.

Reclaim the economy for the 99%. Everyone deserves the opportunity to find honest work, live with dignity, and pursue a better future.

Recreate our democracy. We will start to create a society that is organized to meet human needs, not maximize corporate profit.

On November 17th, the 99% will reclaim our destiny from the 1% and fight back against their plans for austerity.

Join us.

Occupy Wall Street, Occupy Everywhere

occupywallst.org
nycga.net

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=241419422582978

[SoNotHer]

He's so good at injecting humor into anything. Thank you for posting this.

http://gawker.com/5855105/stephen-colbert-trolls-occupy-wall-street

[atomiczombie]

http://gawker.com/5855105/stephen-colbert-trolls-occupy-wall-street

I saw that last night and it was hilarious!! Thanks for sharing. :D

[atomiczombie]

http://act.boldprogressives.org/sign/gwa_wallstreet_occupyjail/?source=fb

[Ebon]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-carr/the-food-movement-must-fi_b_1035295.html

The Food Movement Must Fight a "Secret Farm Bill"

"The farm subsidy lobby and a handful of their powerful Congressional allies are working overtime to skirt normal democratic processes, write a farm bill behind closed doors and slip it into law through the congressional Super Committee. But their plan to write a secret farm bill is finally showing up on the political radar.

The San Francisco Chronicle's intrepid Carolyn Lochhead put it this way on the paper's politics blog yesterday:

Leaders of the House and Senate Agriculture Committees are attempting a breathtaking end-run around the democratic process. They are hatching their own farm bill in private and plan by Nov. 1 take it to the new deficit Super Committee to be enacted whole, without votes in their own committees or in Congress.

Lochhead went on to predict that a secret farm bill, written by politicians from subsidy-heavy states, is certain to short-change California's diverse agriculture yet again. Add to the list of likely losers: conservation interests, local and organic food advocates, defenders of down-and-out Americans who depend on food stamps and just about anyone else who'd like the farm bill to do more than bankroll industrial-scale commodity farming -- GMOs, pesticides and all."

This is only part of the article.

[atomiczombie]

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz56/atomiczombie/Idontalwaysprotest.jpg

Just a bit of Occupy humor for the day. Hehe.

[Cin]

Report: NYPD steers drunks to Occupy Wall Street

Those found drinking in city parks are told by officers to "take it to Zuccotti," the Daily News reports

There’s a bombshell allegation buried in this story from Sunday’s Daily News: The NYPD is reportedly telling drunks to hang out in Zuccotti Park, apparently as a way to undermine the credibility of Occupy Wall Street.

Harry Siegel reports:

But while officers may be in a no-win situation, at the mercy of orders carried on shifting political winds and locked into conflict with a so-far almost entirely non-violent protest movement eager to frame the force as a symbol of the oppressive system they’re fighting, the NYPD seems to have crossed a line in recent days, as the park has taken on a darker tone with unsteady and unstable types suddenly seeming to emerge from the woodwork. Two different drunks I spoke with last week told me they’d been encouraged to “take it to Zuccotti” by officers who’d found them drinking in other parks, and members of the community affairs working group related several similar stories they’d heard while talking with intoxicated or aggressive new arrivals.

…

“He’s got a right to express himself, you’ve got a right to express yourself,” I heard three cops repeat in recent days, using nearly identical language, when asked to intervene with troublemakers inside the park, including a clearly disturbed man screaming and singing wildly at 3 a.m. for the second straight night.

Emphasis mine. Siegel added on Twitter that he has sourcing for the story beyond the two drunks cited above, though he did not elaborate.

The NYPD did not comment to the Daily News. I’ve asked them for a response to the allegations and I will update this post if I hear back.

In other NYPD-related news, hundreds of off-duty officers turned out in the Bronx over the weekend to protest corruption indictments against several of their fellow officers. The scene turned ugly, with the off-duty cops reportedly shoving a cameraman and taunting nearby welfare recipients.

[Cin]

"We Are the 1 Percent. We Stand with the 99 Percent."

Resource Generation and Wealth for Common Good today announced a new website for wealthy people to show their support for the Occupy movement. Already over 100 members of “the 1 percent,” including young entrepreneurs, business owners and wealthy individuals, have posted their support on the new website “We are the 1 percent. We stand with the 99 percent.”

“Those of us with more than we need and who believe in a more just distribution of resources can stand up and tell the truth about how the deck has been stacked in our favor. We need to say that we think it’s wrong too,” said Elspeth Gilmore, co-director of Resource Generation. “Just as the 99 percent has been a powerful rallying cry, the 1 percent has come to represent those who hold the majority of this country’s resources and have created—and benefited from—the financial and economic crises we now face. One hundred percent of us need a different world.”


http://www.commondreams.org/sites/commondreams.org/files/imce-images/tumblr_ltf6cn9j4y1r4cz2xo1_500_0_0.jpg
"College graduate by 19. Masters degree by 22. I own 2 companies, 3 cars and make a quarter million a year on my own, with zero assistance. I have a negligible amount of debt, excellent health insurance and my son has never felt what it’s like to “need” anything. I am the 1%, and I don’t mind paying more in taxes. I stand with the 99%.&quot;] "College graduate by 19. Masters degree by 22. I own 2 companies, 3 cars and make a quarter million a year on my own, with zero assistance. I have a negligible amount of debt, excellent health insurance and my son has never felt what it’s like to “need” anything. I am the 1%, and I don’t mind paying more in taxes. I stand with the 99%."
http://resourcegeneration.org/

[atomiczombie]

Bank of America said today it's dropping plans to charge customers a $5-a-month fee to use their debit cards next year.

The second-largest U.S. bank announced the fee in late September, and customers responded with a flood of protests. Some threatened to leave en masse as part of Bank Transfer Day, Nov. 5.

"In response to customer feedback and the changing competitive marketplace, Bank of America no longer intends to implement a debit usage fee," Bank of America announced in a press release on the company website, adding:
"We have listened to our customers very closely over the last few weeks and recognize their concern with our proposed debit usage fee," said David Darnell, co-chief operating officer. "Our customers' voices are most important to us. As a result, we are not currently charging the fee and will not be moving forward with any additional plans to do so."

Competitors JPMorgan Chase and Wells Fargo said Friday they would not impose monthly debit card fees on their customers, after both tested a $3 monthly fee in some states.

"SunTrust Banks Inc. and Regions Financial Corp. said on Monday they would end monthly charges and reimburse customers," Reuters reported.

LINK: http://money.msn.com/credit-cards/article.aspx?post=69c873f7-7af0-4681-9a84-b05fd193a414&gt1=33045

Too little, too late.

[atomiczombie]

Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

From Liberty Forum

http://www.libertyforum.org/



It sure as hell sounds familiar to me.

[Cin]

It sure as hell sounds familiar to me.

Does it sound more familiar than this?

Core Democratic Characteristics

• Democracy is government in which power and civic responsibility are exercised by all adult citizens, directly, or through their freely elected representatives.

• Democracy rests upon the principles of majority rule and individual rights. Democracies guard against all-powerful central governments and decentralize government to regional and local levels, understanding that all levels of government must be as accessible and responsive to the people as possible.

• Democracies understand that one of their prime functions is to protect such basic human rights as freedom of speech and religion; the right to equal protection under law; and the opportunity to organize and participate fully in the political, economic, and cultural life of society.

• Democracies conduct regular free and fair elections open to citizens of voting age.

• Citizens in a democracy have not only rights, but also the responsibility to participate in the political system that, in turn, protects their rights and freedoms.

• Democratic societies are committed to the values of tolerance, cooperation, and compromise. In the words of Mahatma Gandhi, "Intolerance is itself a form of violence and an obstacle to the growth of a true democratic spirit."

It's really sad, but looking at these one after the other, I can honestly say I see a real fascist bend to our so called democracy.

[Gráinne]

Well, that's it; I'll either be screamed off the board or banned for this.

I've been reading along this thread, as it is a current event, and I wanted to hear all sides. Some points I agree with, others, maybe not. I do hear and understand that there is fear and fed-upness about the economy, banking, and foreign wars, as well as a host of other issues. I understand that. I totally agree that there is a lot of apathy out there, and a lot more that all of us can do to effect change, whether it's OWS or through other means. Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".

What I need to put out here on the table is that some (if not several) of us on this board came from, know someone who came from, or had family living under fascist or communist systems, or farther back, equally repressive royalty. Some of my family lies under Poland for being the "wrong" religion. Others on the other side of my family came from grinding poverty only to find "No Irish Need Apply" signs. I have a friend who can never go back to her country of origin, as it dissolved into civil war that still periodically breaks out. Make that two, in fact, but different countries of origin. Another friend's parents were exiled thousands of miles out of their homeland to central Asia. Many of my friends are still in the country they were born, or at least the land, but there was a revolution in seemingly five minutes that turned their lives and families upside down. All of them at one time or another have told me about thoughts of going to America.

I surely believe we have large problems and inequalities. I have to believe that we have the solutions, both individually and as a group. I'd be hypocritical if I didn't say that I've considered emigrating out of here. But, compared to a lot of other places, we're a lot freer with more opportunity for women and POC than in the not so distant past.

I also want to say I like and respect all of those on this board and in this thread. With all that said, there's something that gnaws in my gut when we're compared to the Jews (and many other groups) under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, the Yugoslavs under Tito, or the North Koreans today. It just hits me wrong. I just ask out of respect for all of those peoples, and many more, please not to call us "fascist".

If you're angry with me, so be it. I stand by my words.

[Corkey]

I don't think all of us are fascists. But from what Drew posted I find that in the US all 14 of the points of fascism are in fact a part of the way the US is being run. Socially as well as politically. Are all of us fascists? No, then again there are some who fit fascist to a tee.

My father fought against fascists, then he became a bigot, then his eyes got opened, and he changed his mind before he died. Change is inevitable, I just hope that we don't change for the worst.

No flame from me, and yes we in the US used to live very privileged lives, I really can't say that any longer.

[SoNotHer]

I appreciate the distinction you're trying to make.

However, I do think we need to a call a thing what it is. And wherever we want to start with this, we are living in a country that increasingly resembles fascism.

I can point to examples to support this, not the least of which include the brutal police response to OWS protestors, the nightmare that is Guantanamo, voting (machines, records and access), a large share of the tax dollar pie in support of endless military moves, the legalization of profiling (new anti-immigration laws), the privatization (and exponential growth) of prisons and much, much more.

My background is Polish, Turkish, Romanian, and a few other countries that have seen despots and systemic oppression. But I believe we can still have fascism in America in 2011 and call it that. And God help us if in our denial of that, it only grows.

Well, that's it; I'll either be screamed off the board or banned for this.

I've been reading along this thread, as it is a current event, and I wanted to hear all sides. Some points I agree with, others, maybe not. I do hear and understand that there is fear and fed-upness about the economy, banking, and foreign wars, as well as a host of other issues. I understand that. I totally agree that there is a lot of apathy out there, and a lot more that all of us can do to effect change, whether it's OWS or through other means. Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".

What I need to put out here on the table is that some (if not several) of us on this board came from, know someone who came from, or had family living under fascist or communist systems, or farther back, equally repressive royalty. Some of my family lies under Poland for being the "wrong" religion. Others on the other side of my family came from grinding poverty only to find "No Irish Need Apply" signs. I have a friend who can never go back to her country of origin, as it dissolved into civil war that still periodically breaks out. Make that two, in fact, but different countries of origin. Another friend's parents were exiled thousands of miles out of their homeland to central Asia. Many of my friends are still in the country they were born, or at least the land, but there was a revolution in seemingly five minutes that turned their lives and families upside down. All of them at one time or another have told me about thoughts of going to America.

I surely believe we have large problems and inequalities. I have to believe that we have the solutions, both individually and as a group. I'd be hypocritical if I didn't say that I've considered emigrating out of here. But, compared to a lot of other places, we're a lot freer with more opportunity for women and POC than in the not so distant past.

I also want to say I like and respect all of those on this board and in this thread. With all that said, there's something that gnaws in my gut when we're compared to the Jews (and many other groups) under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, the Yugoslavs under Tito, or the North Koreans today. It just hits me wrong. I just ask out of respect for all of those peoples, and many more, please not to call us "fascist".

If you're angry with me, so be it. I stand by my words.

[Corkey]

From a friends FB page. The Guardian UK.


Occupy Oakland: police to be investigated over Scott Olsen injury

Citizens' Police Review Board to launch formal investigation as Oakland prepares for general strike on Wednesday



Occupy Oakland protester Scott Olsen is seen lying on the ground after he was apparently hit by a projectile at a protest. Photograph: screengrab via YouTube
Oakland police are to be the subject of a formal investigation after Iraq war veteran Scott Olsen suffered a fractured skull at an Occupy Oakland protest last week.

Oakland's Citizens' Police Review Board is launching the investigation after it received a complaint on Friday. Police in Oakland are bracing themselves for a general strike on Wednesday, which has been announced by the city's Occupy movement and is expected to cause disruption across the city.

Olsen, 24, was seriously injured after being hit on the head by a police projectile. He is still in hospital and unable to talk, communicating only through short written messages.

A source at the review board said the investigation will begin in the next few days, and is expected to last "several months".

"We're reviewing the information we have at the moment," the source told the Guardian.

The board received the complaint from a member of the public. The complaint "relates specifically to Scott Olsen", and was not filed by a member of Olsen's family.

An investigator has yet to be assigned to the case, but will be "within the next few days", the source said.

"I think it's a wonderful thing," said Alan Brill, who acts as a spokesman for Occupy Oakland.

"Just like every once in a while people do things that are wrong from our side, there is a small percentage of police that are out of control, and I'm glad they're being investigated."

Olsen, a former marine who served two tours of Iraq, was injured on Tuesday 25 October as police cleared the Occupy Oakland camp from its base at Frank Ogawa plaza, outside Oakland city hall.

Police used teargas and "less lethal" weapons to clear the plaza. Olsen was apparently struck in the forehead, knocking him to the ground. Video footage shows a police officer throwing an explosive towards a group of protesters who went to Olsen's aid.

More than 15 police agencies were involved in the operation that day, including San Francisco sheriffs.

There has been speculation on social media sites that it was a San Francisco sheriff who injured Olsen, with some Twitter and Facebook accounts naming an officer. However, sheriff spokeswoman Eileen Hirst said that while a platoon of 35 sheriffs did attend the Oakland operation, none of them were carrying teargas or less lethal weapons.

Hirst said the San Francisco sheriffs' involvement in the operation in Oakland was being reviewed internally, but none of the 35 officers who attended on 25 October had been suspended.

Thousands of Occupy protesters are expected to gather in Oakland for the general strike and mass day of action on Wednesday. The strike aims to "shut down" the city, culminating with a march to the Port of Oakland to prevent the transit of cargo.

"Oakland was the site of the last general strike in the US," said protester Tim Simons, at a press conference on Monday.

"On Wednesday, we're going to make history once again. We're going to make Oakland proud."

[Cin]

Well, that's it; I'll either be screamed off the board or banned for this.

I've been reading along this thread, as it is a current event, and I wanted to hear all sides. Some points I agree with, others, maybe not. I do hear and understand that there is fear and fed-upness about the economy, banking, and foreign wars, as well as a host of other issues. I understand that. I totally agree that there is a lot of apathy out there, and a lot more that all of us can do to effect change, whether it's OWS or through other means. Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".

What I need to put out here on the table is that some (if not several) of us on this board came from, know someone who came from, or had family living under fascist or communist systems, or farther back, equally repressive royalty. Some of my family lies under Poland for being the "wrong" religion. Others on the other side of my family came from grinding poverty only to find "No Irish Need Apply" signs. I have a friend who can never go back to her country of origin, as it dissolved into civil war that still periodically breaks out. Make that two, in fact, but different countries of origin. Another friend's parents were exiled thousands of miles out of their homeland to central Asia. Many of my friends are still in the country they were born, or at least the land, but there was a revolution in seemingly five minutes that turned their lives and families upside down. All of them at one time or another have told me about thoughts of going to America.

I surely believe we have large problems and inequalities. I have to believe that we have the solutions, both individually and as a group. I'd be hypocritical if I didn't say that I've considered emigrating out of here. But, compared to a lot of other places, we're a lot freer with more opportunity for women and POC than in the not so distant past.

I also want to say I like and respect all of those on this board and in this thread. With all that said, there's something that gnaws in my gut when we're compared to the Jews (and many other groups) under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, the Yugoslavs under Tito, or the North Koreans today. It just hits me wrong. I just ask out of respect for all of those peoples, and many more, please not to call us "fascist".

If you're angry with me, so be it. I stand by my words.

I do get what you are saying. But I think it's just a matter of degree at this time. And that can change in a heartbeat. I'm sure there are some incidents in the history of various nations that we can look back at and say gee, how come they didn't see that coming?

The boiled frog syndrome comes to mind as a reason. And while I don't think the boiled frog syndrome holds much water when it comes to actual boiled frogs, people, citizens, well they might not notice how hot the water is getting until it's too late. We can get used to things and not notice until the opportunity to stop it has gone by. We have accepted as necessary the loss of a percentage of our rights in the name of perceived safety already. I don't think things are going to get better any time soon.

[Corkey]

I forget who said it. CRS

The only way fascism get s a foothold is if good men do nothing. [sic]

I think it applies today.

[SoNotHer]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

and he said a few other things that are relevant and timely:

"Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security."

"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."

and finally -

"Hypocrisy can afford to be magnificent in its promises; for never intending to go beyond promises; it costs nothing."

I forget who said it. CRS

The only way fascism get s a foothold is if good men do nothing. [sic]

I think it applies today.

[Sachita]

when I hear this it makes me cry. I think about my granddaughter and the kind of world she will live in or if she'll get to live to be my age and have a grandchild of her own.

You can't fight enough for this.


K4GBzhLy8yk

[atomiczombie]

Does it sound more familiar than this?

Core Democratic Characteristics

• Democracy is government in which power and civic responsibility are exercised by all adult citizens, directly, or through their freely elected representatives.

• Democracy rests upon the principles of majority rule and individual rights. Democracies guard against all-powerful central governments and decentralize government to regional and local levels, understanding that all levels of government must be as accessible and responsive to the people as possible.

• Democracies understand that one of their prime functions is to protect such basic human rights as freedom of speech and religion; the right to equal protection under law; and the opportunity to organize and participate fully in the political, economic, and cultural life of society.

• Democracies conduct regular free and fair elections open to citizens of voting age.

• Citizens in a democracy have not only rights, but also the responsibility to participate in the political system that, in turn, protects their rights and freedoms.

• Democratic societies are committed to the values of tolerance, cooperation, and compromise. In the words of Mahatma Gandhi, "Intolerance is itself a form of violence and an obstacle to the growth of a true democratic spirit."

It's really sad, but looking at these one after the other, I can honestly say I see a real fascist bend to our so called democracy.

Agreed. Although I wouldn't call the U.S. government out and out facism, the elements are coming together more and more. This is what happens when power and money get more and more concentrated to a smaller population, as they have in the last 40 years here in the U.S. It's easy to point to the Republicans as the ones who are pulling the country in this direction, but it has been happening under Democrats too, including Clinton and Obama. That's why I hate the 2 party system. Both parties are owned by the big multi-national corporations who control most of the resources of the planet.

[atomiczombie]

Noam Chomsky is my hero!!

Occupy the Future
Tuesday 01 November 2011
by: Noam Chomsky, Truthout | Speech

(This article is adapted from Noam Chomsky's talk at the Occupy Boston encampment on Dewey Square on Oct. 22. He spoke as part of the Howard Zinn Memorial Lecture Series held by Occupy Boston's on-site Free University. Zinn was a historian, activist and author of "A People's History of the United States.")

Delivering a Howard Zinn lecture is a bittersweet experience for me. I regret that he's not here to take part in and invigorate a movement that would have been the dream of his life. Indeed, he laid a lot of the groundwork for it.

If the bonds and associations being established in these remarkable events can be sustained through a long, hard period ahead, victories don't come quickly, the Occupy protests could mark a significant moment in American history.

I've never seen anything quite like the Occupy movement in scale and character, here and worldwide. The Occupy outposts are trying to create cooperative communities that just might be the basis for the kinds of lasting organizations necessary to overcome the barriers ahead and the backlash that's already coming.

That the Occupy movement is unprecedented seems appropriate because this is an unprecedented era, not just at this moment but since the 1970s.

The 1970s marked a turning point for the United States. Since the country began, it had been a developing society, not always in very pretty ways, but with general progress toward industrialization and wealth.

Even in dark times, the expectation was that the progress would continue. I'm just old enough to remember the Great Depression. By the mid-1930s, even though the situation was objectively much harsher than today, the spirit was quite different.

A militant labor movement was organizing, the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations) and others, and workers were staging sit-down strikes, just one step from taking over the factories and running them themselves.

Under popular pressure, New Deal legislation was passed. The prevailing sense was that we would get out of the hard times.

Now there's a sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair. This is quite new in our history. During the 1930s, working people could anticipate that the jobs would come back. Today, if you're a worker in manufacturing, with unemployment practically at Depression levels, you know that those jobs may be gone forever if current policies persist.

That change in the American outlook has evolved since the 1970s. In a reversal, several centuries of industrialization turned to de-industrialization. Of course manufacturing continued, but overseas, very profitable, though harmful to the workforce.

The economy shifted to financialization. Financial institutions expanded enormously. A vicious cycle between finance and politics accelerated. Increasingly, wealth concentrated in the financial sector. Politicians, faced with the rising cost of campaigns, were driven ever deeper into the pockets of wealthy backers.

And the politicians rewarded them with policies favorable to Wall Street: deregulation, tax changes, relaxation of rules of corporate governance, which intensified the vicious cycle. Collapse was inevitable. In 2008, the government once again came to the rescue of Wall Street firms presumably too big to fail, with leaders too big to jail.

Today, for the one-tenth of 1 percent of the population who benefited most from these decades of greed and deceit, everything is fine.

In 2005, Citigroup, which, by the way, has repeatedly been saved by government bailouts, saw the wealthy as a growth opportunity. The bank released a brochure for investors that urged them to put their money into something called the Plutonomy Index, which identified stocks in companies that cater to the luxury market.

"The world is dividing into two blocs, the plutonomy and the rest," Citigroup summarized. "The U.S., U.K. and Canada are the key plutonomies, economies powered by the wealthy."

As for the non-rich, they're sometimes called the precariat, people who live a precarious existence at the periphery of society. The "periphery" however, has become a substantial proportion of the population in the U.S. and elsewhere.

So we have the plutonomy and the precariat: the 1 percent and the 99 percent, as Occupy sees it, not literal numbers, but the right picture.

The historic reversal in people's confidence about the future is a reflection of tendencies that could become irreversible. The Occupy protests are the first major popular reaction that could change the dynamic.

I've kept to domestic issues. But two dangerous developments in the international arena overshadow everything else.

For the first time in human history, there are real threats to the survival of the human species. Since 1945 we have had nuclear weapons, and it seems a miracle we have survived them. But policies of the Obama administration and its allies are encouraging escalation.

The other threat, of course, is environmental catastrophe. Practically every country in the world is taking at least halting steps to do something about it. The United States is taking steps backward. A propaganda system, openly acknowledged by the business community, declares that climate change is all a liberal hoax: Why pay attention to these scientists?

If this intransigence continues in the richest, most powerful country in the world, the catastrophe won't be averted.

Something must be done in a disciplined, sustained way, and soon. It won't be easy to proceed. There will be hardships and failures, it's inevitable. But unless the process that's taking place here and elsewhere in the country and around the world continues to grow and becomes a major force in society and politics, the chances for a decent future are bleak.

You can't achieve significant initiatives without a large, active, popular base. It's necessary to get out into the country and help people understand what the Occupy movement is about, what they themselves can do, and what the consequences are of not doing anything.

Organizing such a base involves education and activism. Education doesn't mean telling people what to believe, it means learning from them and with them.

Karl Marx said, ‚ The task is not just to understand the world but to change it. A variant to keep in mind is that if you want to change the world you'd better try to understand it. That doesn't mean listening to a talk or reading a book, though that's helpful sometimes. You learn from participating. You learn from others. You learn from the people you're trying to organize. We all have to gain the understanding and the experience to formulate and implement ideas.

The most exciting aspect of the Occupy movement is the construction of the linkages that are taking place all over. If they can be sustained and expanded, Occupy can lead to dedicated efforts to set society on a more humane course.

© 2011 Noam Chomsky

Distributed by The New York Times Syndicate.

If you want to know more about Noam Chomsky and the media, here's an excellent documentary about him and his book, Manufacturing Consent.

OJuqoDvyXOk

[Toughy]

I would not look to Oakland's Police Citizen's Review Board for jack shit....but that is just me.....they have been entirely ineffectual at curbing problems with OPD in the past and I don't think that will change.

[atomiczombie]

I would not look to Oakland's Police Citizen's Review Board for jack shit....but that is just me.....they have been entirely ineffectual at curbing problems with OPD in the past and I don't think that will change.

They will have to stand trial in the court of public opinion then. Sad though how fast the public seems to forget about things like the Scott Olsen incident (which is really a crime on the part of the police).

[Cin]

I found this sentence to be very concerning, I think it says so much about the issues of divisiveness. Who Is ordinary? The middle class mostly white? Because poor and homeless white and poc have been under employed and subjected to daily violence. It is a huge valley to cross to see that the 1% is using the military and the police to support the criminalization of the poor. Pitting the middle class against the poor is a great tool of the majority. We have seen it over and over divide and conquer. I do not want to go back to how it was, that leaves to many people out and for me that is the real issue. Class war is happening within the OWS as it does in every other movement. the 99% have different needs that is why there is not one point, there is no universal narrative.

You say you don’t want to go back to how it was because it leaves too many people out. But I don’t think we have ever left how it was. There is dialogue. A lot more than there ever has been. But we have yet to leave how it is behind. We may, as things get progressively worse, but as it stands now, there is still a great divide of misunderstanding between the poor and the middle class. All that has changed that I see so far is there is no longer much difference economically speaking between the poor and the working class. I don’t mean to imply there is no financial difference if you are employed or unemployed. However, if you are counted in that unfortunate group labeled unskilled laborer then you will not earn enough to significantly improve your living conditions regardless that you are employed. Logically speaking if one is employed then one is at least working class and one should be closer economically speaking to the middle class than to the poor. However, that is not the truth of it. Many people who are employed are earning at or below the poverty line. So the employed are found in significant numbers among the poor.

For clarity I will explain how I am using certain terminology. When I say middle class or working class or poor I am talking about economic ability, earning power. I know in the past blue collar worker and working class were used synonymously as were white collar worker and middle class. However, someone who is considered a blue collar worker can easily fall into the middle class financially speaking, just as some white collar office worker can financially be defined as working class. I think unskilled, skilled and professional are a more financially relevant way of understanding the various economic classes as opposed to using old fashioned jargon that really speaks to social class differences. (For the record my use of these terms are in no way an endorsement of them. It pisses me off to even say unskilled laborer. Who the hell decides what work has value anyway? But that’s really another argument for another time.) Logically unskilled laborers make up the largest portion of the working class when speaking about earning potential. Skilled and professional would make up most of the middle and upper middle class. I imagine they would also make up the 1%. The poor include the unemployed who, while a significant portion come from the unskilled laborer class, can include any and all categories of worker. More and more skilled and professional people can count themselves among the unemployed. And as time without an income passes they edge ever closer to poor. Poverty no longer respects social status. If that continues and more and more of the middle and upper middle class experience a diminished capacity for economic advancement and begin to suffer fear of poverty then it will no longer make sense for a decimated middle class to be at odds with the poor. But as it stands most of the divide still remains strong.

What that means to me is that there are still a significant number of people left who are financially secure enough to believe that working slowly for change within the system will be enough. A tweak here and there and see how it works. No need to rush. No need to make too many changes too fast. They still believe the system at its core works and any change needed is merely aesthetic. A bit of cosmetic work on a program or two, a mere surface adjustment here and there and we are good to go. That belief may change as time does not heal the gaping wounds in our economic system.

For now there are still any number of people who are, at the moment, economically safe enough to make judgments about the poor and the working class. These advantaged believe that if the disadvantaged had taken more personal responsibility, made good use of the opportunities afforded them in a free society they wouldn’t be in the mess they are in. They judge because they believe it is some personal characteristic or some inherent superiority that defines them and separates them from those who are poor. It is something about them intrinsically and not some accident of birth that has allowed them to acquire what they have. It is this natural superiority born of brains or talent or simple initiative, but never just plain luck, that assures these advantaged will never have to work at low paying, soul crushing jobs. They will never be at the mercy of employment that leaves them physically and emotionally drained without supplying adequate compensation to allow for a life in an environment that is relatively safe and clean. They will continue to believe this until it is no longer economically feasible for them to do so.

There are still a good number of people who are financially advantaged enough to believe that while you shouldn’t have to starve or live in the street braving the elements, you needn’t have an opportunity to actually live comfortably. It’s enough to be warm and to have something to eat. You don’t deserve the right to choose healthy food or a clean, safe environment. To earn that right you need to have taken personal responsibility. I’m not sure how going to work every day doing a job that exists, therefore must need doing, even though this is not reflected in the ridiculous hourly wage earned, is not taking personal responsibility. Or how losing a job and not being able to find another in a devolving economy can speak to one’s ability to take or not take personal responsibility.

I wish I could live in a society where simply doing the best job you can at whatever work you can get entitles you to live a decent life. A society where all workers have value and all work is important. Not equal of course. Human beings can’t handle that. But of enough value that you get a decent wage so that you can support a family if you have one and live a life that allows for security, personal growth and a few toys.

But right now there still exists plenty of people who are economically advantaged enough to imagine they have the right to judge who is or is not choosing to work. They fancy themselves able to discern another’s motives or reasons behind their unemployment. They believe if you want to work but there are no jobs or you are disabled and can’t work then you should be allowed the bare minimum that would allow your survival, but if you choose not to work too bad for you. The scary part of this is who gets to decide if a human being is purposely choosing not to work? I doubt anyone is announcing a preference for sitting on their ass all day. Although allow me the opportunity at this time to point out that there is a large segment of society, most especially those with large, and I mean really large, excruciatingly large paychecks, who actually do sit on their ass all day. They are performing that all important and extremely meaningful professional labor we hear about. The kind of labor that those willing to take personal responsibility, those who take the initiative and have motivation and drive have earned the right to do simply by their own strong character, ambition and personal achievement (money to pay for education and powerful connections might help a tad). So when they sit on their ass all day it is a virtue.

The thing is that this belief that one has earned one’s right to excessive financial superiority over others doesn’t end well for anybody. Except possibly the 1%. Because as resources dwindle those of you who believe your positions are secure, your superiority is evident and your value as a integral part of this society unquestionable may be in for a rude awakening. The 1% sees no connection between what the rest of society has accomplished and the riches they have amassed. When you see the world like that no one is of any value.

If things continue to deteriorate then more people will be forcibly torn from their positions of financial superiority. We will hear less and less about taking personal responsibility and choosing or not choosing to be unemployed. We are likely to hear more about an equal distribution of the wealth. We will probably hear less about giving the poor a warm place to lay their heads and a little food and a free clinic here and there and more about needing decent paying jobs and healthcare for all. We may start to hear more mainstream conversations about constructing a government that works for the people not just for a small number of rich.

I don’t think we get what we want by asking politely for the 1% to make room for us at the table. They are not likely to just get a conscience. I haven’t noticed history books filled with stories of the rich and powerful relinquishing their control over the masses just because they were asked nicely. Or even admonished gruffly. You have to make them let go. There are non-revolutionary ways to do this. But in the end it’s not just up to the 99% to decide how this is going to go down.

And perhaps there is not a universal narrative but if there were it might be simply that we want to live our lives in a fair and just society that allows for equity of treatment for all members, the right to be financially secure, to always have access to healthcare and to be ruled by a government of the people and for the people, that has the interests of all the people and the future of our world at the forefront of all its decisions.

[SoNotHer]

If I think about the school bully who wanted not only his lunch but my lunch as well, then I understand how and why this changes.

The thing about bullies is that they are actually really quite scared inside, which makes their footing at the momentary top of the heap and uneasy and precarious.

So yes, we need to confront the bully, and that is already happening. But let's not just confront the bully. Let's level the heap.

There are countries with far more social justice and economic stability than our own. It's time to be something other than an decaying empire full run by bullies with clubs. It's time for us to transition to a country that understands the wealth, importance and unique contributions of ALL its people and acts on that understanding.

... I don’t think we get what we want by asking politely for the 1% to make room for us at the table. They are not likely to just get a conscience. I haven’t noticed history books filled with stories of the rich and powerful relinquishing their control over the masses just because they were asked nicely. Or even admonished gruffly. You have to make them let go. There are non-revolutionary ways to do this. But in the end it’s not just up to the 99% to decide how this is going to go down.

[AtLast]

A possible first victory of this movement is that Bank of America (and others) are now pulling back with attempting to collect extra ATM/debit card fees from customers. B of A is saying it "heard the people."

Guess we will have to see what the Oakland general strike does today. I'm off to check it out a little later.

[Cin]

Today, thousands of Oakland residents are participating in a general strike to protest last week’s police brutality and to draw attention to the economic inequality that the 99 Percent are protesting. Numerous local businesses have shuttered their doors in solidarity, and Mayor Jean Quan has even allowed most city employees to take part in the strike if they choose to.

As a part of a day of actions, hundreds of demonstrators shut down a local Citibank chapter. Not only did the demonstrators engage in mass demonstrations outside, but they unfurled a banner laying out some of the megabank’s misdeeds. Here’s some photos from the demonstration that forced the local Citibank to shut its doors:
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/citicrimes.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/citicrime2.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/citicrime3.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/boashut-300x224.jpg


Apparently Wells Fargo, Comerica, and a Chase bank were shut down as well.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/393202/OAKLANDGENERALSTRIKE.jpg




Following several speakers, protesters took to the streets, marching to the state building and the local banks, chanting, "We are the 99 percent." Marching bands led the group, and a flash mob danced to "I Will Survive." Protesters stopped outside of the federal building, chanting and singing.

Due to the highly publicized nature of the strike, most of the downtown businesses had closed in preparation. However, Occupiers found Comerica Bank on 12 Street and Broadway open, and quickly surrounded the doors, forcing the branch to close. Protesters then moved on to a nearby Bank of America, forcing that branch to close, as well.

As of 12:30 p.m., the Oakland protest remained peaceful with no police in sight, while more and more demonstrators joined the marches. Organizers announced plans to march to the Port of Oakland at 4 p.m. and 5 p.m. in an attempt to shut down the port and disrupt the flow of commerce. The organizers originally announced that the port had closed in solidarity with the strike on Wednesday morning, but those reports turned out to be false.

Thousands of protesters are expected to join the marches to the port on Wednesday night. At the daytime march, organizers read the phone number to the Occupy Oakland legal team over a loudspeaker, encouraging protesters to copy it in case of arrest.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/393221/OCCUPY-OAKLAND-STRIKE.jpg

[Toughy]

I was down there (Occupy Oakland) and it's more like thousands of people...not hundreds. I can't imagine how big it's gonna get after folks get off work. A very mixed crowd in terms of age and probably about 30-40% POC. It really had a festival/block party feel to it. 2 different stages for speakers......lots of music and drumming , some chanting and free food. The local small businesses in City Center that serve food were all busy as hell also. You couldn't find a cop if you needed one....they were blocks away and very few of them......tons of media folks.

I truly hope they are very very careful going to the Oakland Port........they will be fucking with Homeland Security, Customs, Coast Guard and those people do not play. OPD will be in full force down there also. The last time a protest went to the Port was 2003 (anti-war) and that ended up being truly ugly...way worse than last week.

[Cin]

I was down there (Occupy Oakland) and it's more like thousands of people...not hundreds. I can't imagine how big it's gonna get after folks get off work. A very mixed crowd in terms of age and probably about 30-40% POC. It really had a festival/block party feel to it. 2 different stages for speakers......lots of music and drumming , some chanting and free food. The local small businesses in City Center that serve food were all busy as hell also. You couldn't find a cop if you needed one....they were blocks away and very few of them......tons of media folks.

I truly hope they are very very careful going to the Oakland Port........they will be fucking with Homeland Security, Customs, Coast Guard and those people do not play. OPD will be in full force down there also. The last time a protest went to the Port was 2003 (anti-war) and that ended up being truly ugly...way worse than last week.

Yes, the articles I posted did say thousands. Twice. The only reference to hundreds was "hundreds of demonstrators shut down a local Citibank chapter." Not that the whole demonstration was only hundreds of people.

Sounds like it was awesome.

I hope there isn't any trouble at the Port.

[SoNotHer]

I like this line and ballot initiative:

"End Corporate Rule: Legalize Democracy"

http://movetoamend.org/news/boulder-votes-constitutional-amendment-abolish-corporate-personhood

Boulder, Colorado Occupies the Ballot Box and Calls for End to “Corporate Personhood”

Ground Breaking Ballot Measure Calls for Constitutional Amendment

BOULDER, CO – Last night Boulder became the second city in the nation to pass a ballot measure calling for an amendment to the US Constitution that would state that corporations are not people and reject the legal status of money as free speech. At midnight, with 93% of the ballots counted, the measure was handily winning with 74% of voters in support.

Boulder’s campaign is the latest grassroots effort by Move to Amend, a national coalition working to abolish corporate personhood. “From Occupy Wall Street to Boulder, Colorado and every town in between, Americans are fed up with corporate dominance of our political system,” said Kaitlin Sopoci-Belknap, a national spokesperson for Move to Amend. “Local resolution campaigns are an opportunity for citizens to speak up and let it be known that we won’t accept the corporate takeover of our government lying down. We urge communities across the country to join the Move to Amend campaign and raise your voices.”

Earlier this year voters in Madison and Dane County, Wisconsin overwhelmingly approved similar measures calling for an end to corporate personhood and the legal status of money as speech by 84% and 78% respectively. Next week voters in Missoula, Montana will have an opportunity to vote on a similar initiative in their community. Move to Amend volunteers in dozens of communities across the country are working to place similar measures on local ballots next year.

“Today’s ‘corporate personhood’ referendum in Boulder, Colorado is the latest message from the American people to state and federal legislators on the need for a Constitutional Amendment,” said Congresswoman Donna Edwards (D-MD). “The Supreme Court’s misguided Citizens’ United ruling burst open the floodgates of corporate spending in our elections, but it also unleashed a wave of public outcry over the need to put individuals, not corporations, in control of our elections. The results from today are just one example that we must take action to protect our treasured democracy.”

Edwards introduced a bill last month for a Constitutional amendment that would overturn the controversial Supreme Court’s ruling in the Citizens United case.

“Working on this campaign was electrifying,” said Scott Silber, a local Move to Amend organizer in Boulder. “We had such an outpouring of enthusiasm from our community. Folks were so thrilled to finally have an opportunity to have their voices heard and resoundingly call for an end to corporate corruption of our democracy. From here we’re taking the campaign to Denver, and then on to Washington, DC.”

Move to Amend’s strategy is to pass community resolutions across the nation through city councils and through direct vote by ballot initiative. “Our plan is build a movement that will drive this issue into Congress from the grassroots. The American people are behind us on this and our federal representatives will see that we mean business. Our very democracy is at stake,” stated Sopoci-Belknap.

For a complete list of all resolutions passed to date see: http://movetoamend.org/resolutions-map.

[Ebon]

SRYYoWBK74g

[MissItalianDiva]

Occupy Oakland has just shut down the port of Oakland....the crowd is pretty impressive

[SoNotHer]

Wow! That's something!

Occupy Oakland has just shut down the port of Oakland....the crowd is pretty impressive

[MissItalianDiva]

Wow! That's something!


That was their goal....Hopefully this remains peaceful through the evening.

[Toughy]

They are at the Port now...........find a live feed KTVU

peaceful except for a group of anarchists.......

police say 3000 so it must be at least 5,000

[MissItalianDiva]

police say 3000 so it must be at least 5,000


I laugh at that comment....so true

[Toughy]

police now say 4500..........

KRON 4 is probably a better news feed......it's not FOX

peaceful children and adults ....its about 1.5 hour walk to the Port from downtown........and there are still plenty o folks downtown

[betenoire]

some simple ways to support the occupy movement without sleeping in a park (http://iamlaurenleonardi.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/eleve-simple-ways-to-support-the-occupy-movement-without-sleeping-in-a-park/)

sorry if this has been posted already. i appreciated coming across this today, since i don't live anywhere near any of the "occupy ____" places and am frankly not in a position to go occupy anything.

[SoNotHer]

Excellent. Thank you, Bete Noire.

some simple ways to support the occupy movement without sleeping in a park (http://iamlaurenleonardi.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/eleve-simple-ways-to-support-the-occupy-movement-without-sleeping-in-a-park/)

sorry if this has been posted already. i appreciated coming across this today, since i don't live anywhere near any of the "occupy ____" places and am frankly not in a position to go occupy anything.

[Corkey]

police now say 4500..........

KRON 4 is probably a better news feed......it's not FOX

peaceful children and adults ....its about 1.5 hour walk to the Port from downtown........and there are still plenty o folks downtown

Maddow has it as her opening tonight. Rock on Occupy!

[Martina]

Wow. The coverage on Rachel Maddow is awesome. Proud of the East Bay.

[SoNotHer]

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/45142018#45142018

http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=null2E3723F3-9B6D-671B-03D0-68821F30AED4.jpg&width=600

From - http://www.occupyoakland.org/

http://www.occupyoakland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/generalstrikeflyer-1.jpg

[MissItalianDiva]

Police are now forming. Not in gear but in hoards and making themselves very visible

[MissItalianDiva]

Inside source has told me cops are coming in groves down West Grand towards the port with lights and sirens...hopefully they stay back

[Ebon]

Inside source has told me cops are coming in groves down West Grand towards the port with lights and sirens...hopefully they stay back

I hope so too.

[Ebon]

Nothing on the news here. Corporate controlled media won't show it.

[Ebon]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/440128250.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1320287800&Signature=2B2IIF72KAu2s212hkPPuhee2Sc%3D

[nowandthen]

https://www.facebook.com/index.php?lh=4b429ca224cf9e7208fa504acd0a9f60#!/video/video.php?v=10150361480894006

[MissItalianDiva]

Occupy SF now forming to take the bridge in solidarity with Occupy Oakland

[Ebon]

I'm listening to the police scanner and they are saying that people are getting hostile towards the cops at 11th and broadway. I wonder if someone there can confirm this.

Oh this is interesting. They keep telling each other that the radio is not secure.

[cara]

Can someone point me in the direction of some clear, easier to understand information about the OWS movement? I support OWS, but I want to understand it more.

Thanks!

:hk1:

[SoNotHer]

Great question, Cara. I think this sign summarizes it well, but you may find more in the article associated with it as well.

http://media.salon.com/2011/10/ows-protest-460x307.jpg

From -

http://www.salon.com/2011/10/31/how_ows_has_transformed_public_opinion/singleton/

Can someone point me in the direction of some clear, easier to understand information about the OWS movement? I support OWS, but I want to understand it more.

Thanks!

:hk1:

[AtLast]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/31/first-on-cnn-occupy-des-moines-ctivists-to-propose-shutting-down-candidate-offices-during-iowa-caucuses/

Activists propose 'shutting down' candidate offices during Iowa caucuses
Posted by
CNN Political Reporter Shannon Travis


Des Moines, Iowa (CNN) – Occupy Wall Street activists plan to amass in Iowa one week before the Iowa caucuses - up to the day they're held on Jan. 3, CNN has learned.

The plan has been dubbed the "First in the Nation Caucus Occupation" - a play on words for the first-in-the-nation presidential contest. The idea is to have activists from across the nation, and possibly beyond, descend on Iowa.

The plan: "people coming to Iowa, occupying every presidential (candidate's) office, shutting them down until they start talking real turkey about what's going on in this country, where the 99% of the people who are not benefiting, at the expense of the 1% who are getting away with murder," said Frank Cordaro, one of the organizers.

The plan is to target offices for Republican candidates and President Barack Obama's campaign offices in the state.

On Monday evening, a group of Occupy Des Moines activists - who crafted the proposal - presented it to the larger group, seeking an endorsement.

The larger group of 50 to 60 Occupy Des Moines activists backed the idea. Following that, an invitation went out to Occupy Wall Street groups nationwide and beyond to come to Iowa. Thus far, organizers say, they've eyed the dates of December 27 through January 3.

If the protests occur, it appears they would be unprecedented for the Iowa caucus season. They could also spark clashes between Occupy Wall Street activists and scores of conservatives.

On Oct. 22 roughly two dozen Occupy Des Moines activists protested outside a gathering of about 1,000 conservatives attending the Iowa Faith and Freedom coalition in Des Moines.

After being ordered from the front of the venue, activists heckled attendees: "Is this the freedom you preach?"

Presidential candidates Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich, Ron Paul, Rick Perry and Rick Santorum attended the event, though it's unclear whether any came in contact with the protesters.

Asked whether protesters intend to disrupt the caucuses and whether their "occupation" might turn violent, Cordaro said:

"Disrupt does not mean violent. We're not going to destroy any property. We're not going to hurt anybody. We're just going to, with our bodies, occupy these offices or shut them down until they actually start talking about the real issues that are facing the 99% of the people who are losers in this country."

"We're not going to prevent anybody from voting. We're not against the actual electoral process. We're against the people who own it right now. And we're trying to reclaim it. We're not trying to destroy it," he added.
Said another creator of the idea, Jessica Reznicek: "Through the occupation of these political campaign headquarters, and actions, we intend to make our voices more known."

The Iowa Republican Party did not respond to requests for comment about the protest plan. The Iowa Democratic Party issued a statement saying they "understand" the frustrations of the protesters.

"That's why we're working hard to make sure President Obama is reelected," party Chairwoman Sue Dvorsky said in a statement. "While President Obama is working to strengthen middle class, make sure millionaires and billionaires pay their fair share and reign in Wall Street, Republicans want to let Wall Street write their own rules and return to the same failed economic policies that got us into this mess."

Drew Ivers, a member of the Iowa GOP's Central Committee, was critical of any Occupy Wall Street-type protests.

"They will be engaged in a fruitless effort, because all they will do is create a lot of overtime hours for the Des Moines Police Department, who will make sure they are not obstructing any activity in any of those offices," Ivers said. "So I think their plan is futile."

"I think it's poor judgment on their part to express their frustration of the system," he added. "They should be shutting down, demonstrating outside the halls of the U.S. Capitol, and maybe the president himself."

Ivers also defended his party's presidential hopefuls as "attempting to change the economic plight, not add to it."

"I sympathize with (the Occupy Wall Street) frustration. But I disagree with their methods."

[SoNotHer]

Why Is OWS Blanketed With NYPD Cameras -- And Are Police Breaking the Law?
By Tana Ganeva, AlterNet
Posted on November 2, 2011, Printed on November 3, 2011
http://www.alternet.org/story/152896/why_is_ows_blanketed_with_nypd_cameras_--_and_are_police_breaking_the_law

On October 15, the day OWS solidarity protests broke out as far away as Australia and Japan, and thousands of people poured into Times Square, a line of NYPD TARU (Technical Assistance Response Unit) officers stood on the street, pointing handheld digital cameras at the protestors jammed behind metal barricades. The SkyWatch tactical platform unit -- a "watchtower" with tinted windows like the one that's loomed over Zuccotti Park for most of the occupation -- stood at one corner, its four cameras roving across the crowd. The whole scene unfolded under the NYPD security cameras stationed all over Times Square and in most parts of the city.

Like the massive crowd control arsenal unleashed on OWS -- riot gear, smoke bombs, rubber bullets, pepper spray, horses, metal blockades, helicopters, plastic cuffs, and the police motorcycles, cars and vans that clog the streets -- the three-tiered surveillance seemed like overkill for an overwhelmingly peaceful movement, where the occasional slur thrown at police is usually shouted down with reminders not to goad cops because they're part of the 99 percent.

It's unclear what the NYPD plans to do with footage obtained by TARU. But recording legal protest activity violates the Handschu decree, a set of legal guidelines designed to check the NYPD's historic tendency to steamroll First Amendment rights. The order emerged from a class-action lawsuit prompted by revelations that the NYPD had spent much of the 20th century and millions of dollars monitoring legal protest activity, an endeavor that generated up to a million files on such dangerous radicals as education reform groups and housing advocates. The Handschu decree prohibits investigations of legal political activity and the collection of data, including images and video of protests, unless a crime has been committed.

The ruling has had a complicated life post-9/11, mutating in response to terrorism fears and authorities' willingness to exploit them. A judge relaxed the order in 2003 after the NYPD argued it needed more flexibility to deal with terror threats. The department promptly proved its trustworthiness by secretively shooting hundreds of hours of footage of protestors at the Republican National Convention. In 2007 the court ruled that the NYPD had repeatedly violated Handschu and tightened the guidelines, limiting videotaping to cases where there's specific evidence that a crime has taken place.

An internal department memo sent out in 2007 instructs police to comply with the new order by only rolling the tape when "it reasonably appears that unlawful conduct is about to occur, is occurring, or has occurred during the demonstration." But Franklin Siegal, a lawyer who has spent years fighting for Handschu in court, tells AlterNet he's received multiple complaints about police videotaping OWS protesters for no good reason.

"Your photo shouldn't be taken and made into a record if you're not engaged in anything illegal. At demonstrations with no illegal activity taking place, cameras shouldn't be on," says Siegal.

The NYCLU has called on police commissioner Raymond Kelly to stop surveillance of the protests, citing the cameras pointed at Zuccotti Park and an incident where NYCLU representatives observed TARU members filming a peaceful march.

"This type of surveillance substantially chills protest activity and is unlawful. In light of the mayor's recognition of the peaceful nature of these protests, we call on you to stop the videotaping of lawful protest," read the letter.

Another camera has more recently been hoisted above Zuccotti Park, joining the four sitting on top of the tactical platform unit (police claim the cameras are only transmitting a live feed and do not record video). Those cameras are visible, at least. Donna Lieberman, executive director of NYCLU, told AlterNet over the phone that Zuccotti can be seen from any number of NYPD security cameras in the area, both by private cameras attached to businesses that are accessible to police and NYPD security cameras.

A 2005 NYCLU survey found over 4,000 cameras below 14th street in Manhattan; five times more than they'd tallied in 1998. Lieberman says that number was a lowball because there are so many cameras that NYCLU didn't have the manpower or the time to count all of them.

Authors of the report warned at the time about a "massive surveillance infrastructure" creeping across the city, unattended by adequate public oversight or outside regulation. Five years later, there's no exact count of all the cameras in New York, but Lieberman says, "We believe if we were to try to repeat the survey today, we would find that there are so many more cameras. Way beyond our wildest imagination."

Today that task would be complicated by the roll-out of the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative, a plan launched in 2005 to cover the area below Canal Street in video cameras constantly streaming footage that's analyzed at a centralized location. In 2009 police commissioner Raymond Kelly announced that the Initiative would be expanded to midtown.

In a macabre twist, journalist Pam Martens has discovered that the law enforcement center where much of the camera footage is examined can be accessed by high-level Wall street employees. Martens obtained 2005 correspondence from Commissioner Kelly promising Edward Frost, a then-Goldman Sachs VP, the creation of "a centralized coordination center that will provide space for full-time, on site representation from Goldman Sachs and other stakeholders."

Martens writes, "According to one person who has toured the center, there are three rows of computer workstations, with approximately two-thirds operated by non-NYPD personnel. The Chief-Leader, the weekly civil service newspaper, identified some of the outside entities that share the space: Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, the Federal Reserve, the New York Stock Exchange. Others say most of the major Wall Street firms have an on-site representative."

The surveillance gadgetry available to the NYPD, and apparently to the very finance industry forces that OWS is protesting, is sophisticated. There are license plate readers that can capture license plate numbers and match them to a database. The cameras can be programmed to alert officers to activities like loitering, and people can be followed as they move from camera to camera.

Over the past year, reports have come out suggesting that the NYPD has plans to integrate face recognition technology into the operation.

As the AP reported, "New facial-recognition technologies will soon make it possible to track exactly who is walking down the street," [Bloomberg] said, adding that he believes "we're going in that direction."

The mayor then opined, "As the world gets more dangerous, people are willing to have infringements on their personal freedoms that they would not before."

At the beginning of the year, local outlets reported that the NYPD was recruiting officers for a new face recognition unit. The NYPD has not replied to repeated requests for comment, so it's not clear if the face recognition technology is in use, and if so, in what cameras -- but a representative of ICX Technologies, the company that builds tactical platform towers like the one stationed at Zuccotti Park, tells AlterNet that the cameras on the tower are compatible with face recognition software.

That would mean an image can be matched up to a mugshot in any criminal database, or any non-criminal database for that matter -- including one of the largest public identity databases in the world, Facebook.

Right after 9/11, when airports and cities enthusiastically embraced face recognition, the technology was fairly crude and a lot of the programs were dropped. But in the past 10 years advances in the software -- including 3-D imaging and "skinmetrics," which maps marks and imperfections in the skin of the face -- have revived law enforcement and Homeland Security's interest.

Sophisticated face recognition software, combined with cameras that can track activity all over the city, would be a useful tool if police wished to collect dossiers on people involved in OWS, as they so casually did pre-Handschu.

Whatever the advances in technology, Siegal says that core principals should remain. "Police should not be keeping records about the legal, political, non-criminal activities of anyone."

Tana Ganeva is AlterNet's managing editor. Follow her on Twitter. You can email her at tana@alternet.org.

[Dominique]

I just wrote nasty (sort of) letters to the republican Senators of Pennsylvania telling them if they vote NO on the extension of unemployment benefits to 5 million Americans.....I will personally spearhead the campaign to vote them out of office. I am sick of them!

Please do the same. *In god we trust* gets voted on and passed,

before our fellow Americans are taken care of :|

[Dominique]

[QUOTE=SoNotHer;453785]Why Is OWS Blanketed With NYPD Cameras -- And Are Police Breaking the Law?
By Tana Ganeva, AlterNet
Posted on November 2, 2011, Printed on November 3, 2011
http://www.alternet.org/story/152896/why_is_ows_blanketed_with_nypd_cameras_--_and_are_police_breaking_the_law


Yes, of course they are breaking the law. SOME, not all. Remember this, when the police show up wearing riot gear, someone told them to do so. Putting the police officers on the immediate defense comes on order. Those officers have many layers of supervisors. In the ONY beatings, it was Police Commanders who were beating unarmed citizens.

For the most part :police:, is not the bad guy. As per the usual, the BIG GUY.

[Ebon]

[QUOTE=SoNotHer;453785]Why Is OWS Blanketed With NYPD Cameras -- And Are Police Breaking the Law?
By Tana Ganeva, AlterNet
Posted on November 2, 2011, Printed on November 3, 2011
http://www.alternet.org/story/152896/why_is_ows_blanketed_with_nypd_cameras_--_and_are_police_breaking_the_law


Yes, of course they are breaking the law. SOME, not all. Remember this, when the police show up wearing riot gear, someone told them to do so. Putting the police officers on the immediate defense comes on order. Those officers have many layers of supervisors. In the ONY beatings, it was Police Commanders who were beating unarmed citizens.

For the most part :police:, is not the bad guy. As per the usual, the BIG GUY.

Everyone always has a choice to do the right thing.

[persiphone]

http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-protesters-remove-blockade-oakland-port-161355762.html


http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/raw-video-protesters-shut-down-port-in-oakland-27142668.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Fraw-video-protesters-shut-down-port-in-oakland-27142668.html

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/police-occupy-protesters-clash-in-oakland-27144120.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Ffema-teams-to-tour-flood-damaged-broward-neighborhoods-27147886.html


i need to learn how to post vids. sorrrieeessss! BUT...it looks like the violence is starting to tip. bittersweet, really.

[persiphone]

Report: NYPD steers drunks to Occupy Wall Street

Those found drinking in city parks are told by officers to "take it to Zuccotti," the Daily News reports

There’s a bombshell allegation buried in this story from Sunday’s Daily News: The NYPD is reportedly telling drunks to hang out in Zuccotti Park, apparently as a way to undermine the credibility of Occupy Wall Street.

Harry Siegel reports:

But while officers may be in a no-win situation, at the mercy of orders carried on shifting political winds and locked into conflict with a so-far almost entirely non-violent protest movement eager to frame the force as a symbol of the oppressive system they’re fighting, the NYPD seems to have crossed a line in recent days, as the park has taken on a darker tone with unsteady and unstable types suddenly seeming to emerge from the woodwork. Two different drunks I spoke with last week told me they’d been encouraged to “take it to Zuccotti” by officers who’d found them drinking in other parks, and members of the community affairs working group related several similar stories they’d heard while talking with intoxicated or aggressive new arrivals.

…

“He’s got a right to express himself, you’ve got a right to express yourself,” I heard three cops repeat in recent days, using nearly identical language, when asked to intervene with troublemakers inside the park, including a clearly disturbed man screaming and singing wildly at 3 a.m. for the second straight night.

Emphasis mine. Siegel added on Twitter that he has sourcing for the story beyond the two drunks cited above, though he did not elaborate.

The NYPD did not comment to the Daily News. I’ve asked them for a response to the allegations and I will update this post if I hear back.

In other NYPD-related news, hundreds of off-duty officers turned out in the Bronx over the weekend to protest corruption indictments against several of their fellow officers. The scene turned ugly, with the off-duty cops reportedly shoving a cameraman and taunting nearby welfare recipients.


wow. classy.

[persiphone]

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/45142018#45142018

http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=null2E3723F3-9B6D-671B-03D0-68821F30AED4.jpg&width=600

From - http://www.occupyoakland.org/

http://www.occupyoakland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/generalstrikeflyer-1.jpg


i was a bit taken aback by the Exxon ad at the beginning of the vid link promoting oil sands processing. whoa. really? is nothing sacred? lol

[SoNotHer]

I thought the same thing, P. In fact, it feels like reading a Kindle version of 1984 only to interrupted by micro-marketing and given a list of suggested reading. Exxon, BP and the likes have infiltrated Maddow, YouTube and some of my other places.

i was a bit taken aback by the Exxon ad at the beginning of the vid link promoting oil sands processing. whoa. really? is nothing sacred? lol

[atomiczombie]

Hey folks sorry I didn't get to posting yesterday. I was really tired when I finally got to my computer after a busy day. Some thoughts about the Oakland strike:

I was really psyched that there were so many protestors who peacefully shut down several banks. Many businesses closed their doors in solidarity with the general strike and that was heartening to see. That they shut down the port of Oakland was beyond amazing and a great victory! Yay!

It is frustrating, however, to see the local anarchist group come into the protest and break windows and throw rocks/bottles, things like that. Those people wearing black and hiding their faces weren't part of Occupy. They were there just to cause trouble. What is even more frustrating is that some of the media called them "protestors" when reporting on those incidents of violence and destruction. They didn't make a distinction, and that gives a totally wrong impression of Occupy. Violence and destruction of property is usually the first and biggest stories that the media seizes on, so that tends to overshadow the message and victories of the general strike. I don't know how Occupy can keep these anarchist hoodlums away from the protests, however. I don't think they can. That fact frustrates me.

Thank you everyone who is keeping us up to date on all the latest details of the protests and political actions, and sharing your ideas. I am going out of town this weekend so I probably won't be able to post, but I will be keeping up as best I can and will be back next week to participate more. :)

[AtLast]

police now say 4500..........

KRON 4 is probably a better news feed......it's not FOX

peaceful children and adults ....its about 1.5 hour walk to the Port from downtown........and there are still plenty o folks downtown

I heard estimates of up to 10,000.

Something on my mind- I understand fully targeting a port in terms of it symbolizing how the US trade agreements and "shipping" of US jobs outside of the US has hurt the 99%. Yet, I can't help but think of the truck drivers and all of the folks working at the port in "regular" jobs could be hurt by this if this becomes a continued tactic.

Private property was damaged by some (very small group) of demonstrators. Shutting down the port for a few hours is a big deal and makes a point- and ZI don't see how smashing up someone's house or business is going to help bring all of the groups of the 99% that need to join together- get together.

I can see that the tactic of closing down candidate offices as something that can get attention at the source. This movement taking hold in the midst of a general election year is one of the best aspects I see in terms of getting our politicians to "get" that we are sick and tired of being duped. And that the deadlock in Congress is not acceptable! This is a time in which what does work in our political processes is needed more than ever. Congress has not passed one bill since the 2010 mid-terms that can significantly promote job growth.

There is a part of me that wants to see OWS take some of the same steps in coalition building to have an effect on elections. And fight the voter supression tactics going on. The Obama administration is taking action with this, but, this should outrage every voter in the US.

Sounds like the Occupy folks that do not agree with smashing things up are out apologizing for the actions of a few today and helping clean up some of the damage.

[atomiczombie]

These anarchists in black had nothing to do with the Occupy movement. They were there just to cause mayhem and destruction. You can see here that the Occupy protestors were trying to stop them without much luck.

86XhCwHhwn8