OCCUPY WALL STREET

[atomiczombie]

I looked and I didn't see a thread on this particular subject, so I decided to start one here. I want to have a place to specifically discuss the Occupy Wall Street movement, rallys, and how it is spreading across the nation.

Here is their newly voted on platform/declaration:


Official Statement from Occupy Wall Street - this statement was voted on and approved by the general assembly of protesters at Liberty Square: Declaration of the Occupation of New York City

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

I think this movement is tremendously important and it's existence is an inevitable outcome of decades of economic injustices perpetrated by the government, banks and corporations in the US and around the world.

What do you all think about the Occupy Wall Street movement and it's message?

[dykeumentary]

I am thrilled that this is happening!
I don't know a lot about what/how is happening, so I am going to support these actions until I have a compelling reason not to (and first-hand account from someone I trust).

[SoNotHer]

I looked and I didn't see a thread on this particular subject, so I decided to start one here...What do you all think about the Occupy Wall Street movement and it's message?

I posted this in another thread this weekend. I've watched it a couple times now, and I find it mesmerizing as I do the movement, as I have the movie V for Vendetta and the books 1984, Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies, among others. I think it's more than high time we took on the 'bloom' of greed. "Maybe freedom's just another word for no one left to screw."

Indeed.

z1vpEcebYBg&feature=related

[imperfect_cupcake]

much better than the rioting that was the reaction here.

I'm rally glad people are shouting and calling attention. I hate the media barely covers it. I've seen nothing about it except on FB and it's a massive movement.

Thanks for posting!!

[Dominique]

I also was thrilled when I saw this happening over the week end. I was tempted to drive to New York and get involved. THIS is ssomething I feel very strongly about.

My wishing upon a star has been answered. There is a TOWN meeting scheduled for Saturday to inform willing participants of the mission and what to expect. I also checked, a permit has been applied for, and recieved, for a peaceful demonstration on the 15th, in the center of the business district. I WILL BE THERE!

[AtLast]

Demonstrations are starting to crop up all over! Unions are getting involved. YES WE CAN!!

[Cin]

There's hope in the air. Finally. People are beginning to stand up together. Together is strength.

Here is an article about the American Dream Movement and Van Jones and his take on the Occupy Wall Street protests.

http://www.alternet.org/vision/152616/van_jones_on_america%27s_uprising%3A_it%27s_going_ be_an_epic_battle/



If you are in NYC this might be something you don't want to miss.

OccupyWallStreet Union March From Foley Square on Wall Street

Posted Oct. 4, 2011, 8:36 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

On October 05, 2011, at 3:00 in the afternoon the residents of Liberty Square will gather to join their union brothers and sisters in solidarity and march. At 4:30 in the afternoon the 99% will march in solidarity with #occupywallstreet from Foley Square to the Financial District, where their pensions have disappeared to, where their health has disappeared to. Together we will protest this great injustice. We stand in solidarity with the honest workers of:

AFL-CIO (AFSCME)
United NY
Strong Economy for All Coalition
Working Families Party
TWU Local 100
SEIU 1199
CWA 1109
RWDSU
Communications Workers of America
CWA Local 1180
United Auto Workers
United Federation of Teachers
Professional Staff Congress - CUNY
National Nurses United
Writers Guild East

And:

VOCAL-NY
Community Voices Heard
Alliance for Quality Education
New York Communities for Change
Coalition for the Homeless
Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project (NEDAP)
The Job Party
NYC Coalition for Educational Justice
The Mirabal Sisters Cultural and Community Center
The New Deal for New York Campaign
National People's Action
ALIGN
Human Services Council
Labor-Religion Coalition of New York State
Citizen Action of NY
MoveOn.org
Common Cause NY
New Bottom Line
350.org
Tenants & Neighbors
Democracy for NYC
Resource Generation
Tenants PAC
Teachers Unite

Together we will voice our belief that the American dream will live again, that the American way is to help one another succeed. Our voice, our values, will be heard.


Here is a list of past present and future #occupy cities.

OccupyTogether.org probably has a more updated list but the site seems to be down. At least I can't log on at the moment. So I took this list from a blog:

[http://october2011.org/blogs/kevin-zeese/99-are-standing-everywhere-occupy-together


An article that some might find interesting.
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2011/10/04/protest-tent-cities-demolished-in-israel-as-social-justice-activists-vow-a-return-to-the-streets/

[weatherboi]

It has organized here! We/we will be marching Saturday!

[weatherboi]

Laziness maybe, I don't know why I haven't done this sooner!!!My personal accounts will be taken care of asap but my business account will take a couple of weeks to organize.


Location: Occupy Wall Street

More Info: • Open an account with a Credit Union before 11/05
• Wire transfer your funds to the new account online on 11/05
• Follow your bank's procedures to close your account

To find a credit union near you:

http://www.ncua.gov/dataservices/findcu.aspx

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=281139538577206

[Dominique]

It has organized here! We/we will be marching Saturday!


WAY TO GO!

[Dominique]

[QUOTE=weatherboi;431625]Laziness maybe, I don't know why I haven't done this sooner!!!My personal accounts will be taken care of asap but my business account will take a couple of weeks to organize.

I closed all my accounts with my bank jan. 2010 after 30 years with them. And you know, they never even asked me why.

I joined a credit union and they sent me a $2.00 bill and welcomed me to a different way to handle your money. Which prompted me to write a nasty gram to the banking institution I was with for 30 years for never asking WHY I left.

LOVE LOVE LOVE the credit union and the SHARED services.

[EnderD_503]

I fully support any show of opposition to bankers (globally) who, for their own benefit, continue to bring misfortune to the average person (globally). I think it's great this is starting to get more press, the more press the better. Maybe people will start thinking instead of following the status quo.

I posted this in another thread this weekend. I've watched it a couple times now, and I find it mesmerizing as I do the movement, as I have the movie V for Vendetta and the books 1984, Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies, among others. I think it's more than high time we took on the 'bloom' of greed. "Maybe freedom's just another word for no one left to screw."

Indeed.

z1vpEcebYBg&feature=related

:lol2: Not surprised that Anon are still in this. But I was disappointed with the lack of "We are Anonymous. We are Legion." ending.

o/ Anon

[Glenn]

Here in Chicago "the greedy pig crisis" is also picking up steam. There were only 100-200 people, but there were more positive reactions coming from evryday folks just passing through like bus and cab drivers, honking, and cheering. My favorite were the sanitation crew who were drumming and dancing on the back of their garbage trucks lol! "Truth may have a wretched existence, but lives longer than a lie."-Anon

[Novelafemme]

[QUOTE=weatherboi;431625]Laziness maybe, I don't know why I haven't done this sooner!!!My personal accounts will be taken care of asap but my business account will take a couple of weeks to organize.

I closed all my accounts with my bank jan. 2010 after 30 years with them. And you know, they never even asked me why.

I joined a credit union and they sent me a $2.00 bill and welcomed me to a different way to handle your money. Which prompted me to write a nasty gram to the banking institution I was with for 30 years for never asking WHY I left.

LOVE LOVE LOVE the credit union and the SHARED services.

Thank you for this reminder YB! I am going to do the same thing today. I forget sometimes how powerful my voice is and that we the people do have a say!

[Ebon]

This guy is awesome. This was an interview meant to make fun of the protestors but he schooled the dude.

TCW-ZIPrBYY

[Novelafemme]

This guy is awesome.

TCW-ZIPrBYY


I heart that man!! Thanks, Ebon!!

[kannon]

I posted this in another thread this weekend. I've watched it a couple times now, and I find it mesmerizing as I do the movement, as I have the movie V for Vendetta and the books 1984, Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies, among others. I think it's more than high time we took on the 'bloom' of greed. "Maybe freedom's just another word for no one left to screw."

Indeed.

z1vpEcebYBg&feature=related


fight club is another one. Although they get a little destructive and blowup all the financial institutions. Woops. :firetruck:

[SoNotHer]

When I went to bed, there were a couple comments in this thread.
By morning, it had multiplied and spread. I'm so charged that this is happening and people are beginning to question the concentration and abuse of power.

Fight Club is another one that offers some response to dehumanizing corporatization. The metaphors and allegories are there.

fight club is another one. Although they get a little destructive and blowup all the financial institutions. Woops. :firetruck:

[SoNotHer]

"..where once you had the freedom to object...you now have systems of surveillance....if you're looking for the guilty, you only need look into the mirror."

Here is the petition asking Mayor Bloomber and the NYC police to allow protesters to peaceably assemble without fear of brutality and arrest:

https://act.credoaction.com/campaign/ows_2/



chqi8m4CEEY

[Cin]

I hate the media barely covers it. I've seen nothing about it except on FB and it's a massive movement.


Perhaps they shouldn't bother. Here is an article about CNN's show OutFront's coverage by Erin Burnett. Check out some of the clickable links in the article. The second link shows a clip of her interviewing some guy at Occupy Wall St. Another is an article by economist Dean Baker speaking to this new line of crap we are being fed about how the bailouts were actually good for us.

[nobelcarrot69]

I'm thrilled to tears about this movement! Having been a victim of corporate greed and outsourcing, I will gladly join the revolt !! We need to pull our heads out of the sand! Everytime you spend your hard earned dollar, on a product made in some other country from a company,in the USA who reap all the perks of tax breaks, greed, and politics, you add to your own oppression. We line their pockets with our money all the while they make it harder and harder for you to make that money. As they taint the waters and land the drinking supplies and farms of countries like China. Who's people have no voice and are forced to be silent about as their govt and US companies cover it up and deny it. The labor is cheap and noone is held accountable for what their operations do to the enviroment. Perfect safe haven for greedy CEO's shareholders and whom ever they are in bed with in Washington. If you outsource to other countries and reap from taxpayers money in any way, as in tax breaks, or rebates for different govt funded programs you should be fined and taxed into the hilt. Only a US company who uses us workers to make their product on US soil should be allowed to receive any govt. Kick backs of any sort. Ask these CEO's why they don't base their headquarters in China too instead of just operations. HM? I know why. Do you ?

[SoNotHer]

It has gone far too far, and I know we can all see the clear watershed moments along the way when corporations were allowed to lie, when they were allowed to invade our privacy and track us, when they were allowed to receive tax breaks for various and sundry awful things, when they were allowed to patent life, when they were allowed to buy a democracy, when they pushed a widening gap between the haves and have nots into a unbridgeable chasm, and when they were considered persons and told that there we no limits on campaign spending.

Enough is enough.


"Since the crisis, which has hit the average worker much harder than CEOs, the gap between the top one percent and the remaining 99% of the US population has grown to a record high. The economic top one percent of the population now owns over 70% of all financial assets, an all time record."

http://www.alternet.org/economy/145705/the_richest_1%25_have_captured_america%27s_wealth_--_what%27s_it_going_to_take_to_get_it_back

[Ebon]

I have a question. Do you think that Obama is part of the problem also or trying to help? There are several "Wall Street Types" that he has appointed into his administration.

[Novelafemme]

I have a question. Do you think that Obama is part of the problem also or trying to help? There are several "Wall Street Types" that he has appointed into his administration.

Amy Goodman interview the author of a book that spoke largely to the subject of off-shore bank accounts. Supposably, there is a "building" somewhere in the Cayman Islands that houses over 50,000 U.S. corporate offices. Wow! As the author said (sorry, I can't remember his name)...that must be a really BIG building!

Obama COULD step in again and work to hold large multi-million dollar corporations accountable for paying their fair share of taxes. And at one point prior to his presidency he lobbied diligently to do just that! I am certainly not a fan of politicians, unless you throw Lieberman in the pile...then I'm a number one fan!...and until there is more transparency in policy making/fiscal reporting and corporate backing, one simply MUST hold the current president accountable.

[Novelafemme]

AMY GOODMAN: Our first guest today is the British journalist Nicholas Shaxson, author of the new book Treasure Islands: Uncovering the Damage of Offshore Banking and Tax Havens. In the book Shaxson writes, quote, "The offshore system is the secret underpinning for the political and financial power of Wall Street today. It is the fortified refuge of Big Finance." Nicholas Shaxson joins us from Washington, D.C.

Welcome to Democracy Now! Talk about what you're calling "Treasure Islands."

Nicholas Shaxson? We'll go to a music break, and we'll come back to see if we can get the audio of Nicholas Shaxson. Looks like we got it right now. Welcome to Democracy Now!, Nicholas.

http://tangibleinfo.blogspot.com/2011_04_01_archive.html

[SoNotHer]

I want to believe otherwise, but I when see Monsanto types, for example, get appointments in Ag and over the food systems they so clearly want to dominate, I worry.

I think we an engaged, active democracy, and I see this movement as one of the most promising wake up calls toward that end that I have seen in some time.

I have a question. Do you think that Obama is part of the problem also or trying to help? There are several "Wall Street Types" that he has appointed into his administration.

[atomiczombie]

Countdown with Keith Olberman on the Current cable tv network is giving GREAT coverage of the Occupy Wall Street movement. So are Rachel Maddow and Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC.

[AtLast]

I have a question. Do you think that Obama is part of the problem also or trying to help? There are several "Wall Street Types" that he has appointed into his administration.

His appointment of Guitner as Sec of the Treasury bothered me- still does. He was and is a Wall Street kind of guy and was right in the middle of what was going on under Bush.

However, I'll take Obama over any of the GOP candidates that most likely will get the nomination. Frankly, I could possibly vote for Jon Hunstman, but he is far too in the "middle" to be the GOP nomination. Romney destroyed more jobs in the US than created them at Bain.

Something that I am getting really tired of is our (the United States) continued tunnel vision about the fact that we are not the only developed country in the world in an economic mess. This is not just a US problem needing to be addressed. We have got to get our heads out of our butts and realize that this just is not all about us.

Also, if we do not take drastic measures to reform our educational system, we will never recover from this recession and not be competitive ever again economically.

[Ebon]

These pictures are cool. It's pictures of people with signs that took pictures explaining their stories.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moveon/sets/72157627812482136/with/6215057626/

[Cin]

Countdown with Keith Olberman on the Current cable tv network is giving GREAT coverage of the Occupy Wall Street movement. So are Rachel Maddow and Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC.

It certainly took them long enough. I was wondering about Rachel Maddow and read a some FB comments, tweets and posts wondering why she was ignoring Occupy Wall St.

Glad to hear this is changing

[Linus]

These pictures are cool. It's pictures of people with signs that took pictures explaining their stories.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moveon/sets/72157627812482136/with/6215057626/

Actually, it's really sad that those stories exist. I do fit into the upper middle class and wouldn't have an issue with paying more to provide resources to those that need (no different than what I did when I lived in Canada -- although I was only middle class there). I knew that if I paid more in my taxes that the services would be there for those that needed it.

Politicians shouldn't be listening for a lobbyist. They should be listening to the people. The last time this happened in a large nation, we got the USSR. And it may yet happen again.

[Corkey]

This guy is awesome. This was an interview meant to make fun of the protestors but he schooled the dude.

TCW-ZIPrBYY

I'm a bit concerned that it appeared to be staged, too quick with the analogies and at Faux they would never have stuck the mic in that guys face. Well it appears staged, I however agree whole heartedly with the guy, off the cuff or not.

[Cin]

Live stream from Occupy Wall St.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/676096/live-stream_from_occupy_wall_street--tune_in_at_4pm_est_for_live_rally_march_coverage%2 1/

[Cin]

A tiny bit off topic, but not really.

Here is an article in the Washington Post about how rich people are being demonized for flaunting their wealth. Pretty funny. Well, actually, maybe not so funny after all. :seeingstars:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/rich-people-demonized-for-flaunting-their-wealth-are-under-attack/2011/09/28/gIQAcJn4AL_story.html

[Corkey]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Citi-announces-new-fees-on-cnnm-215283525.html?x=0

And Herman Cain wants you to blame yourself if you don't have a job and aren't rich..isn't that rich!

[AtLast]

I want people to do well. However, I want all people to have access to what allows us all to be successful. I have family members that certainly fall within the higher tax rates that would be paying more in taxes. They earned every penny they have and have been good employers that give a damn about the people that work for them. When that has mean't they take a cut in order to keep employees on the job, they do just that. Hopefully, they will be able to continue this. They also are willing to pay more in taxes because get that tyhere has to be increases in revenue along with smarter use of revenues in order to get us out of this mess.

I just watched a clip about how now banks in certain states (not legal in all states) that have foreclosed on a mortgage holder can (and are) suing for the remaining "short" in the foreclosed mortgage.

So, if I were to forclose on my home and it went back to the bank and the bank sold it for an amount that was "short" of my original note, the bank could also come at me for the difference!

Talk about smacking someone around when they are down!! The guy interviewed was a Iraq War Vet, to boot!! This plus the banks wanting to impose new fees for using a debit card is just insane and unfair to people.

Something I am jazzed at seeing about these demonstrations is that POC, young, old, able-bodied, disabled folks are involved. Veterans are there, union people are there, retired people are there. Maybe all that really are part of the 99% will continue to join together.

[Linus]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Citi-announces-new-fees-on-cnnm-215283525.html?x=0

And Herman Cain wants you to blame yourself if you don't have a job and aren't rich..isn't that rich!

But that is the way it's supposed to be, no? That's American culture. You should be able to support yourself and not rely on "hand-outs from the gummit". Your lack of a job, your illness, your poverty is of your own creation and not the fault of anyone else in the world, don't'cha know? If you ask for help then you're a socialist and that ain't American. What are you? Some kind of anti-American!? You traitor you. (this is said in a sarcastic tone).

But really. From an outsider, this isn't a surprise since this is very much the neo-conservative American cultural view that I'm used to seeing about Americans. When I read the piece on the Washington Post that Miss Tick had linked, I read the comments. It was interesting to see how many commenters believe this. It might have been true back in the 1700-1800s, when America was first developing and it wasn't unusual to have a homestead where you were isolated. And it may even be true in some places in the US today.

It is, however, far from reality. We are an interconnected, inter-dependent global society. If one part fails, then we all do. And if a large chunk fails, we all do. I wish people would stop demonizing the idea that helping one another, whether through the creation of a national program or otherwise, as socialism and realize that it can do so much to encourage people to do more. In the corporate world (and I think of my own company), the balance of life and work, makes harder working employees. Lessen stress and it causes productivity to increase.

Well, by that logic, would the same be true in the country itself? Help the individual to meet basic needs (and based on some of the pictures that Ebon had posted) many people aren't meeting those basic needs (they trade off medication vs food vs rent).

[AtLast]

Saw the Herman Cain interview, too. It will make a great sound bite for Obama's campaign people to use if Cain gets the nomination. I also like to envision a debate between the two. Cain better study-up!

[Cin]

Seems to be going well.

6:38p.m. ET: ABC News' Gregory J. Krieg reports: The march has passed through a narrow corridor along Park Row and back south down Broadway from Foley Square, returning to Zuccotti Park. We've heard reports on crowd size ranging from 2,000 (an officer guessed) and 15,000 (organizers guessed). I'd say it's much closer to the latter. And for every protester, there must be two metal barriers. This is a very tightly-held rage.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_wall_street_protesters_aerial_nt_111005_wg.jpg

[SoNotHer]

Well said, Miss Tick. Well said, indeed. We've watched companies like Enron lead their employees down the garden path. We've watched companies like Walmart lock in employees overnight, ensure that no woman was promoted past a certain point and no union was ever formed. We've watched states like Wisconsin dismantle the collective bargaining rights of workers and other states try. We've watched companies bet for/against sub prime mortgage packages, make and lose more money than most of us can imagine, be bailed out and be more profitable than ever, all while the American worker's salary stagnates or s/he drowns in underwater mortgages, medical bankruptcy, job loss and 401K plans that have been all but wiped out.

When do we stop letting the needs of a few outweigh the needs of many?

This is a very tightly-held rage.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_wall_street_protesters_aerial_nt_111005_wg.jpg

[Corkey]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/05/herman-cain-blames-the-unemployed-for-being-unemployed/

From the horses ass mouth himself

[SoNotHer]

Well, at least he didn't tell the unemployed to "eat cake."

Or did he?


http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/05/herman-cain-blames-the-unemployed-for-being-unemployed/

From the horses ass mouth himself

[Corkey]

I think it was implied. Where a frenchman when you need one?
Wait Maddow made it official with the Marie Antoinette reference.

[SoNotHer]

Did she? Do you have that link as well?

I think it was implied. Where a frenchman when you need one?
Wait Maddow made it official with the Marie Antoinette reference.

[Corkey]

Did she? Do you have that link as well?

We're in the east, she's on at 9 pm on MSNBC, otherwise one would have to wait til tomorrow.

[SoNotHer]

OK. I actually heard an announcement about the Chicago protests on the classical radio station I listened to this morning. They quoted an organizer who said that they are asking for a permit for an even larger area to protest. They're expecting thousands.

We're in the east, she's on at 9 pm on MSNBC, otherwise one would have to wait til tomorrow.

[Cin]

Well, at least he didn't tell the unemployed to "eat cake."

Or did he?

And they can have ketchup for a vegetable.

[SoNotHer]

That was an interesting WP article, Miss Tick. The only television I watch (or am subjected to) is at the gym. But I actually would be interested in that series entitled "Revenge." I had not heard the term "prosperity gospel" before.

What a time we live in.

And they can have ketchup for a vegetable.

[Cin]

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

[Novelafemme]

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

Oh Hell YA!!

[SoNotHer]

Oh well said. Are you writing about this stuff in a blog or leading a group? If not, you should be.


You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

[SoNotHer]

And don't forget the applause Rick Perry got for standing up for the death penalty, the final statement on race, poverty and the economic rock tumbler otherwise known as the "free market."

Interesting choice the one percent has made in making a growing angry majority its enemy.


You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

[CherylNYC]

I marched with my Union today here in NYC. It was huge and exciting. All of us were talking about how we hadn't felt this kind of populist energy in a looong time.

[SoNotHer]

Awesome! Just read that the unions are supporting a third week of protests.

I marched with my Union today here in NYC. It was huge and exciting. All of us were talking about how we hadn't felt this kind of populist energy in a looong time.

[T4Texas]

I see the Wall Street demonstrations as a good thing. It's time the people in this country stand up and say "we've had enough" from corporate America, and Government. Government was supposed to be by the people, for the people and it has become an institution fallen into the hands of a chosen few lawmakers who make the decisions deemed best for us without ever consulting their constituents. Politicians are out of touch with the average citizen just as corporations are out of touch with their employees. A good example is the recent news item about the congressman who was crying that he couldn't live on 400,000 a year.
They are too top heavy with salaries and bonuses for the upper echelon while making their profits on the backs of their workers who are always kept closer to the poverty line. Corporations expect your loyalty but are sadly lacking in returning it.Their attitude is, if you dont like it move on down the road and we will fill your place. Lawmakers and CEOs are so used to living the high life that they are reluctant to give it up and they honestly do not care about Joe Blow down the street. Im glad to see that there are people who believe this is wrong and are willing to go out into the street to say so.
I support them fully.

[EnderD_503]

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

Morality is the last thing needed. "Morality" (an abstract concept at best, and subjective as hell) is part of what created a situation where people boo gay soldiers and cheer the death or misfortunes of the poor and the homeless. We need a little less "morality" and a little more logic and education. Because when it comes down to it there's no fact-based logic to hating someone based on their sexual orientation. No logic in leaving people to die, to be homeless, to starve. All these things are bad for any nation's economy in the long run, and people are finding that out the hard way. If you turn it into a battle of morals instead of turning it into a chance to educate, then you're just fighting the same "no we're right!" "no, we're right!" battle that the ruling class and the common people have been fighting since the dawn of time.

[SoNotHer]

"Wall Street protests swelled Wednesday to their largest numbers yet, after local unions pledged support to a third week of demonstrations against income inequality, corporate greed, corruption and a list of other social ills...

And following a string of arrests, they say they are pursuing a class action lawsuit against the New York Police Department and Mayor Michael Bloomberg for their "unconstitutional effort to disrupt and suppress" demonstrations."



http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/05/politics/occupy-wall-street/index.html?eref=rss_mostpopular

[SoNotHer]

I understand what you saying, and I am not a subscriber to an organized religion, nor do I often if ever use the term "morality" for some of the reasons you cite. I like logic very much, and whether or not I was an educator, I would believe profoundly in the power of education. But I think Miss Tick's points are well taken, and I wonder if we can simply agree to the term ethics or perhaps a phrase like "equality through justice" or "equality, justice, harmony" when we call for a different code of conduct.



Morality is the last thing needed. "Morality" (an abstract concept at best, and subjective as hell) is part of what created a situation where people boo gay soldiers and cheer the death or misfortunes of the poor and the homeless. We need a little less "morality" and a little more logic and education. Because when it comes down to it there's no fact-based logic to hating someone based on their sexual orientation. No logic in leaving people to die, to be homeless, to starve. All these things are bad for any nation's economy in the long run, and people are finding that out the hard way. If you turn it into a battle of morals instead of turning it into a chance to educate, then you're just fighting the same "no we're right!" "no, we're right!" battle that the ruling class and the common people have been fighting since the dawn of time.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Morality is the last thing needed. "Morality" (an abstract concept at best, and subjective as hell) is part of what created a situation where people boo gay soldiers and cheer the death or misfortunes of the poor and the homeless. We need a little less "morality" and a little more logic and education. Because when it comes down to it there's no fact-based logic to hating someone based on their sexual orientation. No logic in leaving people to die, to be homeless, to starve. All these things are bad for any nation's economy in the long run, and people are finding that out the hard way. If you turn it into a battle of morals instead of turning it into a chance to educate, then you're just fighting the same "no we're right!" "no, we're right!" battle that the ruling class and the common people have been fighting since the dawn of time.


hmn. That in it's self is an code of ethics. which, is: a form of decided morality. Deciding not to be judgemental is a moral decision, based on what you (general) hold to be the most important attributes to live by, which you (Ender) listed for yourself and wish others to adopt.... :p

I don't disagree with what you wish to come about, but one's morals could dictate non-judgement without being smug or dogmatic.

[Cin]

Morality is the last thing needed. "Morality" (an abstract concept at best, and subjective as hell) is part of what created a situation where people boo gay soldiers and cheer the death or misfortunes of the poor and the homeless. We need a little less "morality" and a little more logic and education. Because when it comes down to it there's no fact-based logic to hating someone based on their sexual orientation. No logic in leaving people to die, to be homeless, to starve. All these things are bad for any nation's economy in the long run, and people are finding that out the hard way. If you turn it into a battle of morals instead of turning it into a chance to educate, then you're just fighting the same "no we're right!" "no, we're right!" battle that the ruling class and the common people have been fighting since the dawn of time.

I don’t believe it is necessary to define logic alone as the measure by which we decide what is right or what is wrong. Morality or should I say the word morality has gotten a bad rap. I think it’s because it has always been found hanging around religion and religious people. We need to separate human morality from religious morality. And right quick too. We are faced with moral dilemmas and choices every day. I think we need to learn to make morally right choices based on equity for all. First do no harm works well when embarking on an ethical journey.
.
Personally I believe the last thing we need to continue to do is to leave morality in the hands of organized religion. To have the right wing religious fanatics, regardless of their geographic or geopolitical position, continue to define morality for human beings is, to me, the last thing we need.

You know it is quite astonishing to discover how we almost always conflate morality with the flawed ethics found at the core of organized religions.

Religious morality is problematic because the principles developed by the various organized religions were initially meant to apply to a particular group in order to increase cohesion and unity of said group while at the same time emphasizing the differences of other groups. This type of morality is fundamentally flawed. The potential is a hostile moral system. Not to mention a moral code that was in no way meant to be universal. For example when examining ‘holy books’ you quickly discover that do not kill really means don’t kill your own. Non believers, infidels, pagans and other various enemies are fair game. This quirky philosophy on murder has been passed down in one way or another through religious history and is ingrained in our collective religious psyche. Perhaps this might explain why some deeply religious people have no qualms with the death penalty or with killing their enemies (which in some cases can loosely be defined as those who believe differently.)

Another problem with religious morality is the distinction it makes between private morality and public morality. Leaders and governments answer to the beat of a different morality drum. Living with this kind of duplicity embedded in one’s morality means there is no dissidence for the moral when as leaders they order the deaths of thousands upon thousands of men, women and children while still understanding themselves to be deeply religiously moral. George W. Bush comes to mind as an example, but there are many, many more. This kind of morality no longer works for human beings facing global crises. It’s a new world where survival will hinge on our ability to develop global economic, political and cultural cooperation.

One excruciatingly immoral flaw in religious morality is the eternal hell threat. This need to intimidate believers and demonize non-believers with eternal damnation not only condemns without mercy or appeal 70% of humankind depending on which religious side you stand but it encourages persecution, religious wars and genocide. This ideology of hell and the hatred it encourages against “the other” is responsible for countless deaths.

A huge flaw of religion-based morality comes from the religious need to separate the human body from the mind. Negative, or dare I say, bad religious morality concerning the human body and what can or can’t be done with it by the human inhabiting it directly derives from this bizarre desire to see the body separate from the mind.

To me a moral code, to be judged useful, must treat others with dignity and respect. A moral code that reduces the quality of people’s life is no moral code at all.

The time has come for those who clearly revere and respect humanity, for those who see the need for equity and justice, for those who understand the dignity inherent in all life to take back the use of the term morality. We must overcome our initial revulsion to the term moral. Our reluctance to use the words moral and morality is understandable. There has been a bad taste left in our mouths because of what passes for moral behavior and what is done to other human beings in the name of morality by supposedly god fearing morally righteous people. But religious morality has little to do with our moral belief systems. What is acceptable moral behavior CLEARLY needs to be defined. We should not turn away from this task because of bitter experience with religious morality. For most of us who seek equity and justice for all, I would imagine our beliefs and choices are already inherently moral as well as deeply humane. Why not own the language? Why not take back morality from those whose actions are anything but moral. Why should they own this word that clearly does not fit them.

[Cin]

I'm a bit concerned that it appeared to be staged, too quick with the analogies and at Faux they would never have stuck the mic in that guys face. Well it appears staged, I however agree whole heartedly with the guy, off the cuff or not.

Jessie LaGreca is a blogger at Daily Kos and Griff Jenkins is actually a Fox News producer so if it was staged it would mean an alliance between an activist for Occupy Wall St and a Fox newsman and ardent supporter of the tea party movement.

I guess it could happen but I certainly hope it didn't.

At least I think I hope it didn't. Not sure.

I can't wrap my head around what it would mean if they decided to work together cohesively.

They probably didn't. It's probably real. Ya, let's go with that.

[EnderD_503]

hmn. That in it's self is an code of ethics. which, is: a form of decided morality. Deciding not to be judgemental is a moral decision, based on what you (general) hold to be the most important attributes to live by, which you (Ender) listed for yourself and wish others to adopt.... :p

I don't disagree with what you wish to come about, but one's morals could dictate non-judgement without being smug or dogmatic.

If we put the destruction of homo sapiens sapiens on one side of the scale and the continued existence of that species on the other side of the scale, then yes we can certainly call it a code of ethics. I also see it as efficiency. If we want the species to continue in such a way that there is steady technological/scientific and economic progress, then we also have to realise that social progress must come with it, for oppression does not attain any of these things in an efficient way for the long run. History has told us this over and over again.

In that case, there is really a distinction to be made between this code of ethics which, one could argue, comes down to efficiency, and the traditional definitions of morality which places morality/the act of being moral itself as the objective. We should also note that there is a distinct way in which traditional morality holds anything which opposes it, and that's what I was getting at in the last post.

Traditionally (when we consider the moral systems of the late Romans or the Christians, though particularly of the Christians), when one is a "moral being" one then has a "moral/divine/whatever" right to accuse a supposedly "immoral" being of being just that. This accomplishes absolutely nothing and becomes a pointless argument of "no you!" ad nauseum. By calling for greater "morality" within society, we are only calling for another man-made system that should not be questioned. We should be doing precisely the opposite, and asking society to actually think and analyze why they think the Occupy Wall Street movement is made up of "horrid commies omg," and why they refuse to do anything when the government and government-affiliated bankers continue to abuse the common person. Ask them to think outside what they consider "moral" and "immoral." Instead of asking a person to follow a "moral compass," it demands that people think for themselves.

[nobelcarrot69]

Not only does the spiral of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer need to stop, it needs to be reversed.

[Ciaran]

There is no doubt that there is need for reform of the banking system. However, the "Platform" / "Declaration" of this movement (as noted in the OP) reads to me like something that an emotional teenager would write.

It's trying to be all things to all people (well, all people with the exception bankers) and, furthermore, is scapegoating the banking sectors for many universal problems. These issues were in existence long before the modern banking system and will continue to exist long after the current banking system is redundant.

Aspects of the banking system may facilitate inhumanity (i.e. fundings of ammunition manufacturers etc) but it's not the driver of inhumanity.


Investors (equity and bondholders) need to take the pain - they have done so and are continuing to do so as this financial crisis evolves. However, some of us as individuals need to accept responsibility for our indebtedness too .... yes, a financial institution may have offered us a large mortgage that we would struggle to pay even if the good times lasted and, yes, we may have been offered significant amounts of unsecured credit. However, we are adults and need to accept the decisions we made and the risks that we have taken.

[EnderD_503]

To me a moral code, to be judged useful, must treat others with dignity and respect. A moral code that reduces the quality of people’s life is no moral code at all.

The time has come for those who clearly revere and respect humanity, for those who see the need for equity and justice, for those who understand the dignity inherent in all life to take back the use of the term morality. We must overcome our initial revulsion to the term moral. Our reluctance to use the words moral and morality is understandable. There has been a bad taste left in our mouths because of what passes for moral behavior and what is done to other human beings in the name of morality by supposedly god fearing morally righteous people.

Except that if we're going to define a moral code as treating others with dignity and respect, then we need to define "dignity" and "respect." We also need to realise that there are people in this world who believe (from a moral perspective, at that) that treating certain groups equally is actually an afront to the "dignity" and "respect" of others. For example, allowing same-sex marriage, to some, is an afront to the "dignity" and "respect" of the "heterosexual institution of marriage." They believe that the "moral health" of a nation/people is at risk with allowing that form of equality, and, in fact, to them it is not equality at all. How can we sit there and call them "immoral"? How can we make a sound argument against them, morally? According to whom? To ourselves, of course. But we are almost always moral beings in our own eyes.

It's the same for everyone. Anders Breivik thought himself a rather moral chap. He even predicted that society would deem him monstrous and immoral. But he held the "moral high ground." He was a "martyr." The thing is, people like Breivik do not need to be incarcerated to the maximum because of "morality," but because they are a danger to the progress of society which they inhabit. I would like to quickly add, because when I speak like this people tend to think I'm a "monster" myself or something, that I am not reducing the severity of acts like Breivik's. When I see such things occur there are two "parts" of me at play. The one part, which is enraged that some 70 Norwegian youths had their lives taken because of some christian nutjob. The second part of me asks myself why I am outraged. It then asks why these acts should be condemned in society. Do they have a use? What would happen if we did not incarcerate murderers? What would happen when people live in a society where their family and friends (or themselves) are murdered without society persecuting such actions? It would leave us all feeling extremely unsafe, and violence in society would escalate to the "eye for an eye" mentality present in past ages. In such an atmosphere, modern progress cannot occur. It would cause society to regress, remain static or, at best, progress very slowly (with half a millennium between technological revolutions once more).

Now back to the debate :p

So what is "dignity" and what is "respect," and to whom should it apply? I ask this because there do need to be restrictions placed on those who would discriminate against others in society. They will be treated in a way that is not with "dignity" and "respect" by their own assertions.

And how do we define to "revere and respect humanity." What is "justice"? Justice to whom? Who defines it? The Westboro Church, for example, seems to think that it's out to save humanity from immorality and disrespect brought upon it by "the Gay Agenda (TM)." The politicians who toy with our futures every single day claim to be doing it to help humanity...and yet many of their nations' citizens live in squalor. Politicians claim to bomb other nations all the time out of "moral justification." It has nothing to do with what they claim is "respect for humanity," but their own greed.

You write "supposedly god-fearing morally righteous people." How do you know that they are not? If morality is a subjective/abstract concept, then how can they be "supposedly" god-fearing morally righteous people? These words are completely based on one's own discoursive vocabulary. If one were to take the bible word for word, these types would actually show themselves as pretty "good" christians, if a "good" christian is defined by how well they follow the bible.

There are more efficient and better defensible ways to assure that the common person is treated as an equal in a society run by bankers and politicians. I still maintain that morality is not the way to attain that goal, even though one's first reaction is to think that it is a matter of morality. If it came down to my own ethics, then yes I would feel that these people who oppress need to adopt a similar idea of equality and basic respect as myself. But it's very difficult to make any change or make an air-tight argument using a term that is subjectively defined. And I still maintain that if we want long term progress for society, we need to step away from immutable ideologies/morality, and take a step forward into a more analytical age where our "beliefs" are constantly mutating.

[SoNotHer]

On break, and looking forward to reading the longer replies here later. But I just got my monthly email from Syracuse Cultural Workers and thought I'd share this in the mean time.

http://syracuseculturalworkers.com/sticker-fascism-capitalism-decay

[atomiczombie]

N8o3peQq79Q

[atomiczombie]

KrFQs5X-I1Y

[atomiczombie]

2PiXDTK_CBY

[Mr.Nobody]

i think i would like to say, IMHO, that without the emotional teenager...there would be a whole lot less really cool things in the world.

there is enough blame to be spread, but the time for blame has long past. the time now is for change. a little less talk perhaps and a lot more action. and if it takes the emotion of a youthful teenager, then so be it.

because the grown ups don't seem to be doing such a great job of things...and really what could be cooler than all things...for all people?

[JAGG]

I looked and I didn't see a thread on this particular subject, so I decided to start one here. I want to have a place to specifically discuss the Occupy Wall Street movement, rallys, and how it is spreading across the nation.

Here is their newly voted on platform/declaration:




I think this movement is tremendously important and it's existence is an inevitable outcome of decades of economic injustices perpetrated by the government, banks and corporations in the US and around the world.

What do you all think about the Occupy Wall Street movement and it's message?
I agree with 90% of what's being stated here. I would add a few more problems to the list. The trade deficit is a huge issue no one has adressed. We import far more than we export, have for years now. We buy more than we sell, can't stay in business long doing that. Common sense. So why is it still happening? The Gov regulates what comes in and out of our ports. The economy is struggling yet we continue to spend more than we make it must stop.
You can't blame big business for taking tax breaks our tax laws afford them. If the IRS told you JQ Public if you make 36300.72 this year, you don't have to pay taxes how many of you would demand that you still pay your fair share. I'm guessing NONE. The problem lies in the tax laws and codes. They need to be changed. I want it to be fair for everyone. Noone tax breaks of any kind for anyone. I think disabled and the elderly should pay no taxes. Everyone else pays a flat tax say 18 cents for every dollar earned. Shrink the gov offices of Irs save money that way, its fair for everyone .

[SoNotHer]

It's a very coherent, directed and needed statement. Thank you for posting this.

N8o3peQq79Q

[SoNotHer]

What's interesting about this video is that there are kids in hats and khakis and tie dye, and then you have a couple guys in business attire talking about how their 401Ks were wiped out. It's a big movement, and it's growing.


KrFQs5X-I1Y

[SoNotHer]

I don't disagree with the end of unfair tax breaks, Jagg, or lopsided tax structures that allow for a greater cut of Warren Buffet's secretary's salary to be taken out than his own.

But how you intend to solve the myriad of other issues at stake and at play here? What about the folks who have underwater mortgages? What about those who lost home and property to a medical bankruptcy? What about those who got sold a bill of goods by Enron and the like and invested in a garbage 401K? What about the folks who lost their small stores and businesses when Walmart and company came to town? What about the steel towns like the ones I live and have lived in that watched a thriving main street become a ghost town?

How exactly does an entity like a corporation, that is not only set up to serve itself first and foremost but is actually mandated by law to be responsible first to its owners/stockholders, ever get to decide what's best for all? And now that corporations do in fact run our democracy, how do we effectively reverse that?





I agree with 90% of what's being stated here. I would add a few more problems to the list. The trade deficit is a huge issue no one has adressed. We import far more than we export, have for years now. We buy more than we sell, can't stay in business long doing that. Common sense. So why is it still happening? The Gov regulates what comes in and out of our ports. The economy is struggling yet we continue to spend more than we make it must stop.
You can't blame big business for taking tax breaks our tax laws afford them. If the IRS told you JQ Public if you make 36300.72 this year, you don't have to pay taxes how many of you would demand that you still pay your fair share. I'm guessing NONE. The problem lies in the tax laws and codes. They need to be changed. I want it to be fair for everyone. Noone tax breaks of any kind for anyone. I think disabled and the elderly should pay no taxes. Everyone else pays a flat tax say 18 cents for every dollar earned. Shrink the gov offices of Irs save money that way, its fair for everyone .

[Cin]

There are more efficient and better defensible ways to assure that the common person is treated as an equal in a society run by bankers and politicians. I still maintain that morality is not the way to attain that goal, even though one's first reaction is to think that it is a matter of morality. If it came down to my own ethics, then yes I would feel that these people who oppress need to adopt a similar idea of equality and basic respect as myself. But it's very difficult to make any change or make an air-tight argument using a term that is subjectively defined. And I still maintain that if we want long term progress for society, we need to step away from immutable ideologies/morality, and take a step forward into a more analytical age where our "beliefs" are constantly mutating.

You know it’s not so much that I don’t agree with you to a point. It’s more that the majority of people will not, and might even misunderstand what you are saying. And when people don’t understand something or if it seems too different they stop listening. When you are trying to stimulate change I think it is important to have people listen to you. Morality is a language that people understand. It’s not like the danger inherent in that is lost on me. I just think it might be easier to wrest morality from the claws of religion than to ignore the importance of it to a large percentage of the population.

If I want someone to hear me I will speak in a language they understand. If I want someone to understand what I am doing I will use tools with which they are familiar. Morality is important to most people. Statistics show that 70% of the US population wants a president who is moral. Until we can separate morality from religion, in the eyes of most people, moral also means religious. Religious morality is like the bizarro superman of morality. This kind of thing can’t just be ignored (as much as I wish it could.) It needs to be addressed in some acceptable way.

Secular morality is based on logic and reason rather than supernatural revelation. So clearly I’m not saying that logic and education are wrong answers. I’m just saying they are both as open to perversion as morality, especially since in many ways they are the same thing as secular morality. Logic can easily be perverted to meet the needs of fanatics. Education, as important and as useful as it is, will not change the minds of the average religious zealot. We can’t even get them to accept, regardless of all the evidence to the contrary, that the earth is older than 6,000 years. There are some, a great many in fact, who, despite all the scientific proof available showing just the opposite, believe that evolution is wrong. No amount of logic or education is going to change that. But for the sake of the rest of that 70% who believe morals are a measure of a leader we cannot leave morality in the hands of people who refute logic and pervert reason.

As far as equality I don’t think I said anything about equality. I said equity. Equity is the quality of being fair and impartial: "equity of treatment". Which is different from equality which is correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability. There are some ways in which I believe we need to be treated equally of course. But equal in only some ways and to a certain degree because surely logic clearly supports the reality that we certainly are not all equal in all ways.

However, we all deserve equity of treatment. I think that is a moral measure that is not subjective. I believe we need to judge the morality of a belief, a choice, a decision, or a law by how well it adheres to the principles of justice and equity for every individual. You said you believed that “people like Breivik did not need to be incarcerated to the maximum because of morality but because they are a danger to the progress of society which they inhabit.” I think being dangerous to the progress of society is a moral issue. I believe acting in such a way as to be a danger to the progress of society is not a sound moral decision. It is adversely affecting the moral principles of justice and equity for every individual. There are consequences to taking an action that infringes on the rights of another. There are social contracts and you are right there are consequences for breaking them that end in less dignity and less respect for individuals who do engage in actions that are dangerous to the progress of the society they inhabit. But even in this there needs to be a social contract that is humane.

Morality based on equity of treatment for all would not be subjective. Hopefully it would negate any need to define words like dignity, respect and reverence for humanity. It is just an equity of treatment that everyone would like for themselves. If this kind of secular morality were reality then every decision would be reached based on equity and every decision, every choice you make or you support would be one you would be comfortable having done to you and your loved ones.

I doubt the majority of people are comfortable leaving morality out of the conversation when talking about social change. If we, who want to drive change in the direction of logic and reason, the direction of long term progress for society, leave morality out of our discourse, if we concede morality is the language of the opposition, then it will appear to others it is because we do not understand the language. That I believe is doing ourselves a deeply disturbing and dangerous disservice. We do understand the language of morality. We just don’t care for the way it is being spoken at this time. We could help change that.

[Apocalipstic]

Hell, close the IRS completely.

[Corkey]

Make the IRS code one page, no more loopholes. Pay income tax on a simplified formula and make companies pay their fair share. Seems like a no brainer, except the ones without brains are the ones we have in office.

[Corkey]

Dear Mr.,
Thank you for contacting me about campaign finance reform. I appreciate hearing from you.

As you may know, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, overturned a federal ban on independent political advocacy by corporations and unions. I understand your concerns regarding this decision and political activities by outside groups and businesses. That said, the Supreme Court has long upheld that political speech, including the funding thereof, is protected by the First Amendment and is an integral part of our constitutional democracy. It is important that Congress be mindful of these constitutional principles, although I understand your concerns about this issue. Please be assured that I will keep your views in mind as Congress continues reviewing changes to campaign finance laws.

Thank you again for your correspondence. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of assistance.

Sincerely,



Pat Toomey
U.S. Senator, Pennsylvania


This idiot just doesn't get it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jose-fernando-lopez)

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/15-M/neoyorquino/entra/fase/mediatica/encuentra/nuevos/aliados/elpepuint/20110927elpepuint_4/Tes)Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/APff59341f3ceb4f55a21b0de8bbe4cdba.html), the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2069/housing-bubble-subprime-mortgages-hispanics-blacks-household-wealth-disparity), Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.

[AtLast]

Make the IRS code one page, no more loopholes. Pay income tax on a simplified formula and make companies pay their fair share. Seems like a no brainer, except the ones without brains are the ones we have in office.

One of the key factors all along the way of internal revenue reform in the US is just how big and active the tax attorney and certified public accountant lobbys are! This is big business in the US. From H & R Block to online tax prep services. This industry has made a lot of money on how complex just filing income tax can be for even people that are by no means wealthy, and want to reduce their tax liability by utilizing breaks that they are entitled too. Things like deductions for educators or mortgage interest, having a home office, etc.

These folks do not want a simplified tax code- don't want "just folks" to be able to file a simple return with their check if they owe. This is a billion dollar business in the US. Mention a flat tax toan accountant and hear them stutter!!

[Corkey]

One of the key factors all along the way of internal revenue reform in the US is just how big and active the tax attorney and certified public accountant lobbys are! This is big business in the US. From H & R Block to online tax prep services. This industry has made a lot of money on how complex just filing income tax can be for even people that are by no means wealthy, and want to reduce their tax liability by utilizing breaks that they are entitled too. Things like deductions for educators or mortgage interest, having a home office, etc.

These folks do not want a simplified tax code- don't want "just folks" to be able to file a simple return with their check if they owe. This is a billion dollar business in the US. Mention a flat tax toan accountant and hear them stutter!!

I've always done my own taxes, except for one year when the company I worked for moved and took us with it and I had to sell my home and the bonus money for moving, and the estate monies from my parents living trust. It was a mess and I am certainly not qualified to figure all that out. I never use H&R and never will.

[atomiczombie]

Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jose-fernando-lopez)

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/15-M/neoyorquino/entra/fase/mediatica/encuentra/nuevos/aliados/elpepuint/20110927elpepuint_4/Tes)Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/APff59341f3ceb4f55a21b0de8bbe4cdba.html), the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2069/housing-bubble-subprime-mortgages-hispanics-blacks-household-wealth-disparity), Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.




What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

[CherylNYC]

Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jose-fernando-lopez)

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/15-M/neoyorquino/entra/fase/mediatica/encuentra/nuevos/aliados/elpepuint/20110927elpepuint_4/Tes)Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/APff59341f3ceb4f55a21b0de8bbe4cdba.html), the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2069/housing-bubble-subprime-mortgages-hispanics-blacks-household-wealth-disparity), Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.



I can only speak from personal experience about the protest I attended yesterday, (Wednesday),evening. The organizers were a groupcalled United, and the majority of them were people of colour. They were very recognisable in their red t-shirts, and they did an excellent job keeping the crowd safe. Perhaps the news media chooses to focus on the white protestors, (I wouldn't know because I don't have a TV), but the mix of demonstrators that I saw seemed to be a good reflection of the diversity of our NYC population.

[JAGG]

I don't disagree with the end of unfair tax breaks, Jagg, or lopsided tax structures that allow for a greater cut of Warren Buffet's secretary's salary to be taken out than his own.

But how you intend to solve the myriad of other issues at stake and at play here? What about the folks who have underwater mortgages? What about those who lost home and property to a medical bankruptcy? What about those who got sold a bill of goods by Enron and the like and invested in a garbage 401K? What about the folks who lost their small stores and businesses when Walmart and company came to town? What about the steel towns like the ones I live and have lived in that watched a thriving main street become a ghost town?

How exactly does an entity like a corporation, that is not only set up to serve itself first and foremost but is actually mandated by law to be responsible first to its owners/stockholders, ever get to decide what's best for all? And now that corporations do in fact run our democracy, how do we effectively reverse that?
You really want my opinion on fixing all those things? I don't have answers for all these things, but I can give you my opinion. That would take me a week, hahahah I'll tell you what I think about some and adress other ones later.
I don't know what you mean by an underwater mortgage. Do you mean people who took out a loan with a bank for an adjustible interest rate instead of a fixed rate ? Or someone who took out a loan they knew they couldn't afford but because the bank agreed to give them the loan they took it, and now can't make the payments? Tell me what you mean by underwater mortgages and then I can give you my opinion. As far as medical bancruptcy, it of course could happen to anyone. Just like any disaster in life, you don't expect it, or want it but you still need to take precautions. There are many many insurance companies you can buy policies from for a very small monthly fee ,some as low as 20 dolars a month, to protect you in case you become ill and unable too work . It pays your mortgage medical bills and even pays to retrain you in a new field if your injuries or illness prevent you from returning to your job. Some will pay up to a million dollars of medical bills etc, depends on your policy. So knowing it could happen to anyone at anytime, I think it's important you take measures to insure you're prepared. It's like not having renters insurance. It's less than 10 dollars a month but if you don't have it and a tornado wipes everything out, you'll have nothing. Do you think someone who wasn't willing to protect themselves should now be taken care of by tax payers? I don't. I'm not saying I don't feel sorry for them , or that it's not an awful situation to be in, I'm saying you can protect yourself if you don't want that to happen. If you don't protect yourself, then I guess you'll have to make do best you can. That is the responsiblity of the individual.
Enron is a messed up deal. All the people and companies that lost everything, the elderly, who can't work anymore, it's sad. Again could happen to anyone, those people had no idea their investments were shams some even did a lot research on the company before they invested, and it all seemed valid , how do we compensate victims of a crime? I supppose all that can be done is sell the assets and distribute them to the victims. Hold the people accountable for their crimes including the Gov. agencies who's job was to insure these things don't happen, like SEC. Then impliment rules and safeguards so that it doesn't happen again. It's all you can do. It's not a perfect plan , and those people will never get all their money back or even a fraction, by no fault of their own. It's sad it sucks, it's not fair. No easy fix for that one.
Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose. If you can't change and grow and be flexible, and offer the public something different, something better and your prices are too high you're are going to go out of business. That is a fact. That's bad business practices. Mom and pop shops didn't want to lower prices didn't want to offer a different service didn't want to do anything different, so they failed to compete. Blame it on walmart? There are plenty of mom and pop shops still open. Mcdonalds , Burgerking, Wendy's , Steak and Shake, they haven't put any small mom and pop burger places out of business. People will pay extra for a better product, they will also pay more for a unique service or product, but they won't pay more for the same product or a like product. If a company is not offering something better or different than their rivals , except higher prices, that's bad business practices, no company can be profitable conducting business like that, why should poor busniess practices and an unwillingness to change anything make a mom and pop store anymore special than say, Builders Square, or Ultimate electronics . That's business, that's how it works and how it doesn't work. Blame it on walmart, blame it on the internet, target, kmart, but the fact is had they offered something better,something more, something different, something unique, they would still be in business. Ok That's it for tonight.

[Glenn]

I don't disagree with the fact that everyone needs to be held accountable for their own choices in life, even if we were all bombarded through corporate media with easy credit, real estate, cars, plasma Tv's, Bush encouraging us to spend more after 911, etc. What goes up comes down, and all of a sudden none of it was our fault? If my Mom and Pop store fails, I will take full blame. I won't blame the government. If I lived beyond my means, I've got whats coming to me. I still believe in Capitalism. It's flawed but can be fixed. But when the hammer drops, the poor feel it worse. The middle and working class have learned also by losing their homes and jobs. I agree with Obama to tax the billionairs. It was the ones at the top that shifted the blame outside of themselves, and refused to take responsibility. Maybe if there were more prison sentences and less fines for them it would've been different. Everyone, rich, poor, middle class needs to be held accountable for their choices. And speaking of Religion, most world religions do not condon usury. And speaking of morals, what is moral about charging someone $400 for 30 lifesaving pills, when I could look up the active ingredient and order a fifty gallon drum of it for ten dollars. This is how the billionairs are raping the poor and middle-class. We have been slaves to the billionairs of the world, and the best slaves, are the ones who don't know they are slaves.

[The_Lady_Snow]

What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?



This is "my" personal opinion as to why, if large groups of Latinos and Black gathered in large numbers to "protest" I feel it would be seen differently.. I also believe that this information is not being passed to people who do not have access like we do and don't know that these kinds of gatherings are going on, add economic status and you can count a lot of peoples voices. My hopes this spreads so all towns not just big citties and all peoples are being educated on the chance to use their voices too.

[MsMerrick]

Here's photos from last Sunday ( October 2 ) down at Occupy Wall Street

My Facebook Public Photos (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2115703895636.2104689.1336876855&l=cd7f4017dd&type=1)
I was there at the March ( and I love the aerial view..! ) but my back hurt too much , so I didn't do the whole march. There was an incredible range of diversity there, and many Unions! All of which was very inspiring....

Here's a much smaller album of shots from the beginning of the March on Wednesday evening.
more of my FB albums (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2126791852828.2105000.1336876855&l=ca5a2e30c2&type=1)

[JAGG]

You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

Do you really think these people don't know what true north is ? Do you really think they don't know what is right and wrong. Of course they do. Of course they know you shouldn't do something to someone, you wouldn't want done to you. People with character and standards, and morals and ethics don't need a compass, they will do the right thing because that's who they are. They choose to do the right thing , not because of fear tactics or consequences, they do it because it's right. People who lack character, have no morals, no conscience,just don't care. They know what the right thing to do is, but unless it serves them in some way to do the right thing ,or it's easier than doing the wrong thing,they will choose to do what benefits them. They know it's wrong before they even do it, they don't care. No moral compass can fix that. They are thoughtless, selfish, self-centered, and self-serving, they have no conscience. You can't give a conscience to the morally bancrupt. And no moral compass will help them choose to do the right thing. They don't care who they hurt, who they effect who they damage or what havoc they wreak.They are usually the first ones to point a finger and blame someone else or something else, they will never hold themselves accountable. If they held themselves accountable they wouldn't have done the wrong thing to begin with. All we can do is hold them accountable, and try to prevent them from being in a position to hurt alot of people, like voting them into office.

[Cin]

Do you really think these people don't know what true north is ? Do you really think they don't know what is right and wrong. Of course they do. Of course they know you shouldn't do something to someone, you wouldn't want done to you. People with character and standards, and morals and ethics don't need a compass, they will do the right thing because that's who they are. They choose to do the right thing , not because of fear tactics or consequences, they do it because it's right. People who lack character, have no morals, no conscience,just don't care. They know what the right thing to do is, but unless it serves them in some way to do the right thing ,or it's easier than doing the wrong thing,they will choose to do what benefits them. They know it's wrong before they even do it, they don't care. No moral compass can fix that. They are thoughtless, selfish, self-centered, and self-serving, they have no conscience. You can't give a conscience to the morally bancrupt. And no moral compass will help them choose to do the right thing. They don't care who they hurt, who they effect who they damage or what havoc they wreak.They are usually the first ones to point a finger and blame someone else or something else, they will never hold themselves accountable. If they held themselves accountable they wouldn't have done the wrong thing to begin with. All we can do is hold them accountable, and try to prevent them from being in a position to hurt alot of people, like voting them into office.

Well you certainly might be right. I really have no idea what makes people do things like that. But I wasn’t talking about those people when I said we need to occupy the moral high ground. Or when I said that our country needed to adjust its moral compass. I meant religious right wing conservatives always lay claim to morality like it just rightfully belongs to them, like it is just naturally assumed they are morally superior to the left. They certainly infer as much often enough. However, I think if we look at their actions, the right has shown this country an example of a very bizarre kind of morality. They do not act in ways that reflect any ideas of morality I’ve ever imagined. If the religious right is made up of people who act in good and moral ways then the definition of good and moral they are using is not same definition I am using. It does not reflect any belief I hold about goodness and morality.

They are not the keepers of the morality for this country, as a matter of fact by their actions they have shown themselves to actually be the antithesis of what is morally right.

[atomiczombie]

This is a comprehensive list of links to locations in the United States and Canada with Occupy Wall Street solidarity events:


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/04/1022722/-Occupy-Wall-Street:-List-and-map-of-over-200-US-solidarity-events-and-Facebook%20pages?detail=hide

[JAGG]

Well you certainly might be right. I really have no idea what makes people do things like that. But I wasn’t talking about those people when I said we need to occupy the moral high ground. Or when I said that our country needed to adjust its moral compass. I meant religious right wing conservatives always lay claim to morality like it just rightfully belongs to them, like it is just naturally assumed they are morally superior to the left. They certainly infer as much often enough. However, I think if we look at their actions, the right has shown this country an example of a very bizarre kind of morality. They do not act in ways that reflect any ideas of morality I’ve ever imagined. If the religious right is made up of people who act in good and moral ways then the definition of good and moral they are using is not same definition I am using. It does not reflect any belief I hold about goodness and morality.

They are not the keepers of the morality for this country, as a matter of fact by their actions they have shown themselves to actually be the antithesis of what is morally right.

I agree to that for sure. Hypocrites. Organized religon is man's way to control man. I'm leary of anyone too far right or too far left. They usually are very angry and have a hidden agenda. That agenda usually has nothing to do with the best interests of anyone but them. That has been my experience.

[SoNotHer]

[QUOTE=JAGG;432922] I don't know what you mean by an underwater mortgage. Do you mean people who took out a loan with a bank for an adjustible interest rate instead of a fixed rate ?"

From Wisegeek.com "An underwater mortgage leaves the owner with more debt on the property than the current market value."

You owe more on your home than it's worth, conscripted as you are to "mortgage" (as in the French word "mort," or death, or only after death are free).

You can find a similar definition or find in news stories daily. The last figure I read suggested that folks lost 30% and more of their home's value in the post "boom boom" days that took a sharp right off the cliff just prior to Bush's exit. Inasmuch as a home is most folks' greatest financial asset, this was somewhat painful for working family types but perhaps better news for predatory types.


"As far as medical bancruptcy, it of course could happen to anyone."

The Vegas odds are better for the un or under-insured.

"I think it's important you take measures to insure you're prepared."

So how does that work for folks who were directed to invest in an Enron 401K, or who were counseled to buy a home beyond their means, or whose children were sent multiple credit card offers while still in college or who had the great misfortune of getting inconveniently sick working a Walmart or any job that ensures that you work just up to the point where you are not entitled to health insurance?

"I'm saying you can protect yourself if you don't want that to happen. If you don't protect yourself, then I guess you'll have to make do best you can. That is the responsiblity of the individual."

So really whatever happens, happens and let the free market rule? It's all good, right?

It's funny. We hold children to much different standards than this. If we see a child hitting another child, we intervene. If we see a child take another child's cookie, we stop it and make the child give it back. If we hear a child bullying another child or talking to other children about picking on and setting up another child, we address it and ensure that no child feels singled out or bullied or inferior. We want our children to understand, embody and act out of a sense of goodness and fairness and equality.

And then we become adults and that changes. So what exactly does that say about us, and what does that model for our children?


" Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose."

And that would be the only measure of cost and value? The comparative retail prices? Beyond the price you see and make a determination on, there are many other costs and prices to consider. And the statistics clearly and consistently show that the Mom & Pop stores not only give back more to their communities in terms of charity, real jobs and taxes, they also happen to take less from their community than a Walmart does in, for instance, in emergency services response and patrol (lotta stuff to watch and prosecute for the shoplifting of) or water contamination and clean up in the river that sits just, unfortunately enough, behind a Super Walmart.

And then of course there's what Walmart allows the community and taxpayer to do, namely take on those medical costs and bankruptcies. Over two thirds of the WM's employees don't participate in the company's healthcare plan. Wonder why. I'm sure it's because they're so abundantly covered somewhere else.

So it's interesting that while you call for more exports and fewer imports, a better trade balance and a stronger American-made economy, you find the justification to shop a store known for selling "Cheap Chinese Crap" because it appears to cost less.

And sadly, that's what everyone's done, which is why the dollar stagnates, China buys our debt (and ours and Canada's prime agriculture, by the way), and the middle class does an amazing disappearing act. "If we're looking for someone to blame, we only have to look into the mirror."

So here we are, many of us, listening to euphemisms like "downsizing" or "food insecurity" or "eliminating redundancies" thrown around, terrified of communism, ignorant of socialism, and falling into the ever widening jaws of carnivorous capitalism and wondering exactly when we hit some kind of economic and social oblivion from which there is no turning back.

[AtLast]

What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

This ineresting as I have read a couple of blubs to the contrary. In SF, those that have gathered have been represented by POC quite clearly. Maybe because CA is a border state to Mexico? Or, is it just a SF thing?

The article Snow posted certainly points to how the mortgage lending practices and ensuing foreclosure rates hit POC in much higher numbers than whites.

It also can be atributed to the fact that historically, social movements tend to begin among white, middle class people. In the past this has been due to a very simple factor- they could have more "leisure" time. Although, since the recession has crossed economic and racial lines and is continuing to do so, my guess is that this social movement will keep climbing in numbers of POC and run across class status in ways we may have never seen before.

I wonder if one of the main reasons there are less Latinos involved in public demomstrations is also in play. Fear of harrassment about legal status. I was thinking earlier today after looking at the site that has the schedule of these demonstrations all over the US about cities in AZ and other states that have passed legislation about police being able to just demand documents from people. How the hell will Latinos, many of whom have had foreclosures, feel about participating?

It may very well be that since more and more white, middle-class people are feeling the effects of long term unemployment in much higher numbers and also would be among higher percentages of people that have bank accounts and credit cards as well as mortgages, etc. People that suffer with chronic unemployment and have been dealing with the poverty level in their lives don't use banks (usually can't even get an account due to poor credit scores) or have credit cards. If they do, they are of the type that the person fills themselves and is really not an extension of credit (the pre-paid cards).

My hope is that this will be a movement in which all that are angry with how people are being taken advantaged of by big banks and public corporations can join together and not get diverted by "how many of what color is out here today." That's another thing, this is a revolving movement in which people demonstrate on dats they can and not on others. Demonstartors are revolving in and out as they can with their own obligations. So, there are different people every day of the demonstrations.

I'm just throwing out some possibilities here- and I am going to go look for the links of articles that state that there is a good turn-out in various areas of POC.

[Martina]

It also can be atributed to the fact that historically, social movements tend to begin among white, middle class people.

That is simply not true. The Civil Rights Movement was not started by white middle class people. The Labor Movement was not. The LGBT rights movement was not. The Disability Rights movement was not. Anti-Apartheid was not. Indiginous Peoples Movements were not. And on and on.

[Corkey]

On the news, ABC and MSNBC when they were showing the protesters I saw a mix of races, many many young and many many women. Sorry not into tallying the numbers. I know our city has a protest to be staged, no one has intimated it's only for white people. So far it is mostly academics doing the talking however. Not many poor people have access to computers outside of work or school, so when it is staged the poor may just well join.

[AtLast]

That is simply not true. The Civil Rights Movement was not started by white middle class people. The Labor Movement was not. The LGBT rights movement was not. The Disability Rights movement was not. Anti-Apartheid was not. Indiginous Peoples Movements were not. And on and on.

And you are very misinformed and ignorant of the facts! I have taught social problems and movements for many years. Look up middle-class leisure time variables and social movements in the united states and most certainly the Second Wave of feminism. You are very much out of your league here.

Poor and working poor people are usually struggling to keep food on the table, work more than one job and don't have the all of the "free" time that the middle class has had.

[EnderD_503]

And you are very misinformed and ignorant of the facts! I have taught social problems and movements for many years. Look up middle-class leisure time variables and social movements in the united states and most certainly the Second Wave of feminism. You are very much out of your league here.

Poor and working poor people are usually struggling to keep food on the table, work more than one job and don't have the all of the "free" time that the middle class has had.

Eh. It depends on the movement. I agree that a great deal of rights movements were given breath by middle class people, but it wasn't the case in every movement of the early modern/modern era. Martina does have a point about certain movements she's mentioned: the birth of the Gay Rights movement, if we trace it from Stone Wall, stemmed from some of the most marginalized people of contemporary society (trans sex workers, drag queens, working or impoverished gay men) becoming fed up with police raids and mistreatment. Of course, the academics that gave a louder voice to the movement (though did not initiate it), were certainly indispensable.

Anti-Apartheid was a mixed bag, and without black South Africans and white South Africans coming together there would not have been as great a success. Same can be said for the Civil Rights movement in the US.

There are quite a few rights movements and revolutions out there that had little to do with white middle class people. At the same time, many rights movements also required the involvement of white middle class academics in particular (the feminist movement as you mentioned. Without middle class white women in particular, there would be no feminist movement, either first or second wave), in order to gain widespread success.

The poor not having leisure time to think of acting on their own oppression is not as true in the 20th century as it was in the 19th and 18th centuries (and before, of course). Especially in groups that were frequently the targets of regular state violence and brutality.

I'm not sure it's a generalisation that can be applied to all movements, is what I'm trying to say.

[dykeumentary]

And you are very misinformed and ignorant of the facts! I have taught social problems and movements for many years. Look up middle-class leisure time variables and social movements in the united states and most certainly the Second Wave of feminism. You are very much out of your league here.

Poor and working poor people are usually struggling to keep food on the table, work more than one job and don't have the all of the "free" time that the middle class has had.

Whoa.
"Very misinformed," "ignorant," and "out of your league"?
Is this CNN or a social website?

An example that comes to mind right off the bat is the struggle of Indigenous Peoples in North America. I'm a working person, so probably someone who teaches knows more than I do, but I'm pretty sure that First Nation people have been fighting for their continued existence since they first had contact with European people. I'm guessing that makes them the longest-fighting resistance here, even without the help of the white middle class. This thread does have the word "Occupy" in it's title.

Seems like if the white middle class is writing the script, they might be giving themselves a starrng role, and set the definitions? My view of history leads me to think the white middle class is best at looking after it's own interests. Most of the time that's involved complacency. I think disenfranchised people have shown a lot of energy and inventiveness working on their own behalf. I think that's one of the reasons the NYPD has to use terrorism to discourage resistance.

[AtLast]

Whoa.
"Very misinformed," "ignorant," and "out of your league"?
Is this CNN or a social website?

An example that comes to mind right off the bat is the struggle of Indigenous Peoples in North America. I'm a working person, so probably someone who teaches knows more than I do, but I'm pretty sure that First Nation people have been fighting for their continued existence since they first had contact with European people. I'm guessing that makes them the longest-fighting resistance here, even without the help of the white middle class. This thread does have the word "Occupy" in it's title.

Seems like if the white middle class is writing the script, they might be giving themselves a starrng role, and set the definitions? My view of history leads me to think the white middle class is best at looking after it's own interests. Most of the time that's involved complacency. I think disenfranchised people have shown a lot of energy and inventiveness working on their own behalf. I think that's one of the reasons the NYPD has to use terrorism to discourage resistance.

Go and research social movement beginnings in the US other than early union movements. This is about the fact that so many social movements having to deal with the absence of POC and working-class and the poor being represented. I am actually talking about the fact that middle-class people have historically been able to "take the time" to get organized because of what the poor and working class deal with in terms of survival.

Later, this fact was most certainly brought to the forefront as so many of the variable, let's say for the Women's Movements did not address issues of WOC or poor women. Of course, POC and working poor began to say- "Hey, this does not comsider what is important to me." Then, made their issues known. There are many, many early and later strong social movement leaders from other classes and races. Many splits were made due to these kinds of issues and the lack of knowledge of white, middle class activists in terms of POC.

I am coming from a sociological perspective of the demographics of social movements as they are documented. It is about the mechanics of social movements.

In the 60's it was college students, mainly white that were faced with the draft during the Vietnam War that were at the center of that movement to stop that war. At that time, there were far, far, far fewer POC in college at all as well as in good paying jobs with good benefits and the means to get out there.

And again, as a sociological paradigm, it is very difficult for people that cannot just up and run out with a poster at their leisure to a demonstration, Consequently, those that could, did.

I brought this up in response to posts about the lack of POC at many of the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations- which isn't entirely true. However, given the severity of unemployment today, especially with POC, things like transportation, child care, and just lack of funds would have a big impact and it is higher among POC. For example, in Richmond, a city near me, the rate of unemployment for Latinos and African Americans is more than double than for whites. Most have been unemployed long term which really causes a decline in resources as simple as having money to take a bus, let alone have a car.

This is not about middle-class whites are the activists and POC have not taken their rightful place in social movement organization and effectiveness. That is absolutely not what I was saying at all.

[Dominique]

Not many poor people have access to computers outside of work or school, so when it is staged the poor may just well join.

Computers and the internet are free at all libraries, career link provides the same free services. Most YMCA's and YWCA's have compter labs and the use is free. Dress for Success, (a woman's back to work program) has a no charge computer lab.....computer access, to folks who can not afford it, is readily available, if one wants it. just saying.

[MsMerrick]

AtLast, I disagree with your general statement. If you wanted to reword it to s say that often a movement caught fire or got media recognition, when it was taken over by the white middle class..I "might" agree. But I remind you that "historical facts" are reported by the white middle class..Particularly going back to the 50's and for many years forward, whites were pretty much the only people recognized as being a story !

[AtLast]

AtLast, I disagree with your general statement. If you wanted to reword it to s say that often a movement caught fire or got media recognition, when it was taken over by the white middle class..I "might" agree. But I remind you that "historical facts" are reported by the white middle class..Particularly going back to the 50's and for many years forward, whites were pretty much the only people recognized as being a story !

I can live this. Although, one has to study the key organizer's biographical information. Middle-class does not only contain white people would be another point I would like to make. Funny how we take don't recognize POC that are middle or also upper-middle-class.

But, I certainly see your point about what was/is considered a "news story." I am thinking about things like the Natalee Holloway case, or the Lacy Peterson case. There was months and months of in depth media coverage on both of these from the start- just when they were both "missing persons."

How many POC cases are covered like that? In fact, an African American woman's body was discovered at the very same area Lacy & Connor Peterson's was and it got little attention.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know the numbers of how many Latinos are showing up at these protests I'm reading and listening to my Latino based sources be they media, radio, articles and they are encouraging us to make a stance and show up at these protests with caution. The caution comes from when a person who is not white gets arrested their process is a teeny tiny bit harder when it comes to making bail I myself know this from being arrested at peaceful protests and having been treated a lil rougher cause I'm Latina and gay, this weekend I hope that many many peoples that aren't white show up to Occupy Jacksonville I have a feeling it won't be so multicultural though.

[SoNotHer]

"In the less than three weeks since protesters first converged in lower Manhattan, similar demonstrations have already cropped up in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and other U.S. cities, and organizers in dozens of other countries – including Canada – say they will do the same. Here’s what you need to know about the movement."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/occupy-wall-street-who-they-are-and-what-they-want/article2193829/

[JAGG]

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

[MsMerrick]

I can live this. Although, one has to study the key organizer's biographical information. Middle-class does not only contain white people would be another point I would like to make. Funny how we take don't recognize POC that are middle or also upper-middle-class.

. Perhaps you do not, but I certainly do, and that would be why I specifically mentioned White.

[SoNotHer]

Ah, as if I needed confirmation that the OWS movement was touching a nerve and on track:

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/07/eric-cantor-occupy-wall-street-mobs_n_999853.html

WASHINGTON -- Top House GOP leaders assured attendees at the 2011 Values Voter Summit Friday morning that despite all the attention on fixing the nation's economy, they remain committed to pushing the priorities of social conservatives, including defunding Planned Parenthood and defending the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in court.

[Linus]

Ah, as if I needed confirmation that the OWS movement was touching a nerve and on track:

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/07/eric-cantor-occupy-wall-street-mobs_n_999853.html

WASHINGTON -- Top House GOP leaders assured attendees at the 2011 Values Voter Summit Friday morning that despite all the attention on fixing the nation's economy, they remain committed to pushing the priorities of social conservatives, including defunding Planned Parenthood and defending the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in court.

Eric Cantor is a maroon. The fact that the Republicans are continuing business as usual (that is, there is no economic problem and that it's all about the "moral fabric") is not surprising.

His comments here are more telling:

"This administration's failed policies have resulted in an assault on many of our nation's bedrock principles," he said. "If you read the newspapers today, I, for one, am increasingly concerned about the growing mobs occupying Wall Street and the other cities across the country. And believe it or not, some in this town, have actually condoned the pitting of Americans against Americans. But you sent us here to fight for you and all Americans."

But when he spoke at the Values Voter Summit in 2009, Cantor expressed a very different sentiment toward another movement that was arguably "pitting Americans against Americans" -- the Tea Party.

At that time, Cantor praised those protesters as "fighting on the fighting lines of what we know is a battle for our democracy.”

"People are beginning to wake up and see a country they don’t really recognize," said Cantor.

[Dude]

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.

[Greyson]

What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

Like Snowy (and ty for responding to this question) what I am posting is only my opinion. No science, statistical anything to back it up. Purely my oberservation and judgment.

It is a little bit different for POC and especailly for those without a certain level of education and/or money, resources when gathering in large numbers. First, if you must be somewhere to earn a living and it is going to make the difference as to whether you can put a roof over your family and food on the table, guess which one you choose? You go to work, not the march.

Second, if you are a member of a group of people that historically have been treated unfailry by our figures of authority and power; One tends to learn how to avoid being in situations that might render you "guilty until proven innocent" or harrassed within the frame of what is legal, maybe, or just humiliating. Many POC have had a few generations to learn the skills of how to survive in a hostile environment. These lessons are not easily unlearned. The trust is not there.

Some people may be undocumented and if arrested fear they will be deported. Others may have a previous criminal record that is recent or decades old. It is possible they cannot afford to have another arrest on their record. Even if the arrest is only civil disobedience.



__________________________________________________ ______________________________

African Americans and Hispanics suffer disastrously high unemployment rates in metro areas
Two new EPI briefing papers by Algernon Austin, director of EPI’s program in race and ethnicity detail the catastrophic effect the nation’s jobs crisis has had on African American and Hispanic communities across the nation. In High black unemployment widespread across nation’s metropolitan areas, Austin compares the post-recession unemployment rates of 2010 to those before and at the end of the recession (2007 and 2009) in 31 metro areas.
http://www.epi.org/publication/high-black-unemployment-widespread-metropolitan-areas/
At 24.7 percent, Detroit led the nation in black unemployment in 2010. Likewise, Milwaukee, Las Vegas, and Minneapolis all had black unemployment rates over 20 percent. Sun Belt cities were once a refuge for African Americans seeking employment before the recession, but the metropolitan areas of Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, and Las Vegas all had unemployment rates above the national black average and were among the highest rates of all the metro areas examined.
The Huffington Post used the paper’s findings to create this interactive slideshow depicting the 10 cities where black unemployment is rising fastest.
Hispanic unemployment rates in metropolitan areas around the country had similarly discouraging findings. http://www.epi.org/publication/hispanic-unemployment-northeast/ Of the 38 places studied, 18 saw an increase in Hispanic unemployment of over one percentage point since 2009. Providence, Rhode Island had the highest unemployment for Hispanics with a rate of 25.2 percent, followed by Hartford, Connecticut at 23.5 percent.
This week’s Economic Snapshot further illustrates the high rates of Hispanic unemployment across the nation.
The metropolitan areas with the highest rates of Hispanic unemployment were much higher than the national Hispanic average of 12.5 percent and even rival the peak national unemployment rate during the Great Depression.
“Without a strong federal jobs program, the pain of very high unemployment is likely to be long-lasting for most of America’s metropolitan blacks and Hispanics,” said Austin.

[Linus]

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg, I know this won't change your view I do feel that I need/want to speak up a dissenting opinion to what you say (as a former fiscal conservative type).

While it certainly is up to each person to ensure they have a safety net, the challenge is what if their safety net is completely gone because the job they had went *poof*, they've used all their savings and nothing is left? What if they went to school to get a decent job, can't find one now that the market is tanked and have an obscene amount of student loans where they are expected to pay $500 a month from the start? Where does this person turn? To me this isn't about bad choices (not any more). It's about events beyond our own control. I've lost jobs and been out of work for a few months but I cannot imagine being out of work for 2+ years. I don't understand how that's an individuals fault.

I would also like to add that we don't have the close-knit communities like we used to. There has been a cultural shift to remote communities and given the discussion currently on this site about "Internet Duplicity" it's hard to be able to ask or give support when faced with challenges like that. So where does the individual turn to at this point? Middle class has been eroded for years (this has been an ongoing discussion in Canada for years -- I think I remember first seeing this in the mid-90s in the Toronto Star or on the CBC).

On the flip side, banks and large industry (most notably the American car industry) claimed that they needed the money to help individuals stay afloat. They got the money and... nothing. Small business, who cannot stay afloat against the likes of Walmart et al., are going under and cannot get loans in a poor market. People looking for work have a market that is impossible to get into. And often, if they manage to get jobs it's at minimum wage (if they are lucky). Individuals, who were willing to work out new payment plans, were ignored by banks. I know of one woman who worked 2 full time jobs for her restructured mortgage program. The bank kept telling her different amounts for her restructured program and every time she paid she was out by x amount (even after asking 3 times for verification as to the amount and when it was due!). They foreclosed on her recently. How is this her fault? Who does she turn to?

I know that this isn't always because of someone not willing to do the work or not having a safety net. I know this because K spent nearly 2 years trying to find work after obtaining a well-regarded Masters degree in a field that is in need of people: social work. She sent out thousands of resumes over the course of that time and got two call backs. Most of the time people didn't even say "We got your resume and will keep it on file" or some other form of acknowledgement. We're very lucky right now: I make a very decent salary and she, during that 2 years, worked for her dad. She managed to get a temporary job with the VA but that has a lot of uncertainty as it could end at any time.

Now, if I lost my job would we survive? Probably not. My savings is enough to pay off everything I owe but losing my job would mean more than that. I'd have to leave the country and probably live with relatives. For me, this whole fight is personal. While I can't be at the rallies I would love to because the reality is... we are the 99%.

I don't think this is a question of living beyond one's means but rather an extended Depression -- and I think it's time we said that it is a Depression. This isn't an extended Recession. This is a fundamental change in the way that the markets work. At one time, these kinds of events caused individuals to rethink and get creative (the old adage of "necessity is the mother of invention") but this feels very different. In a society where mass consumerism has reached it's peak and saturation, and where box stores and the likes of Amazon rule, I wonder if small business and recreation of industries can still exist.

So while some may have mismanaged or misplanned or spent beyond their means, given the size of what is being faced here in the US I don't think that it's true of the majority.

[Julie]

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.

Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg -- Seriously?

You are equating investing in a financial market over a person who is not prepared for an accident or illness?

Imagine this. I had amazing health insurance. This covered all of my treatments and my surgeries, of which I worked really hard through the years to have this great job which gave me great health insurance. 5 years later, I am without a job and my cancer returns. I no longer have insurance and I am no longer employed, yet -- I thought I had prepared for my future, but the fucking economy dropped and I lost everything, including my job. There are no jobs available to me - because the unemployment rate is HIGH! Not to mention, I cannot afford my mortgage payment anymore and did I mention, the credit card companies raised my interest from 10% to 29% and they got away with it? Oh, I did have a savings, but I had to drain it in order to save my life for the moment - Did not save my home though! And my kids, my babies are hungry.

How can you possibly equate a risky financial decision - investments always are - with people who get ill or lose their jobs? And let us not forget about where people grow up and what is available to those people. There is no such thing as fair education in this fucking country of ours. Or fair jobs. While our country likes to say they treat all people equal - this is just bullshit. I stand a better fucking chance at getting a job over a person of color, even if they are better qualified than I am.

What about the 10's of thousands of homeless vets? Yes, homeless men and women who gave their lives and souls to this country, are left to rot and are dying of hunger. Is this their fault?

Car insurance? There is no bank who will loan you a car without insurance. You cannot register a car (paid for or not) without insurance. This is RARE when this happens.

How can you say this? Where is your empathy?

Julie

[Write14u]

Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose. If you can't change and grow and be flexible, and offer the public something different, something better and your prices are too high you're are going to go out of business. That is a fact. That's bad business practices. Mom and pop shops didn't want to lower prices didn't want to offer a different service didn't want to do anything different, so they failed to compete. Blame it on walmart?


Gotta disagree with you on this one JAGG. It wasn't a matter of not wanting to lower prices for mom and pop businesses.
When Wal-Mart exploded in the 80s and ---yes, put mom and pop places out of business --- it did it because it had the power of money. I know this first hand and witnessed it with my father's television shop. When he ordered a Magnavox, etc., TV for his store, he couldn't even get the same rate as Wal-Mart was SELLING TVs for. Because Wal-Mart bought in such bulk from the manufacturers, it was able to sell TVs for lower than my dad, as a dealer, could buy them. You can say it's not Wal-Mart's fault that it had the money to buy so much at such a low price, and that would be accurate. However, it's not accurate to blame it on smaller businesses who were unable to match those prices without taking steep losses.
And yes, Wal-Mart knocked my dad out of business. He adapted and found other things to sell/do. But in no way, shape or fashion, did he have the money required to compete with Wal-Mart. The only small mom and pop stores remaining open are niche shops.

[Write14u]

And JAGG, as for being prepared: There are people who can barely afford to pay for food. There's not even $10 per month to squeeze out of the budget for any type of insurance, whether it's renters insurance or life insurance, etc.
Julie said it well. There's nothing you can do when you lose your job and you're doing everything you can to find another and something happens to you, such as a medical issue. That's not lack of preparation.

[Julie]

True Story!

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was diagnosed with full blown AIDS 2 years ago. He lost his job because of illness, yet managed to find another one - less paying and without insurance. He could not go to the doctors for general care (just for his aids) and a year ago was diagnosed with Colon Cancer. He was at risk of losing his car - he could not make the car payments, which having a car might not seem like a lot - but it meant, he could not get his HIV treatment. No mass transit where he lived. We as a community raised a few thousand dollars to try and get him on his feet.

He died from a massive infection. He would NEVER have become so ill, had they found the colon cancer earlier, but he did not have insurance. He could not get help. It was too late for him. He died because of our country - our country killed him.

And SweetCali - We lost her as well. We lost her, because this country of ours does not give a shit about people without health insurance. She was treated like a second class citizen and she did not have to die. She should not have died. I believe our country is also responsible for her death.

And what about all of the other people who die on a daily basis, because they do not get the health care needed or are not treated with the same care as someone with money? PLEASE!

We in this country are creating our own fucking genocide with the poor.
What part of this is okay?

I am just so heartbroken by the ignorance of some people. When you are so ignorant and callous - you are creating a great hurt!

[The_Lady_Snow]

RIP Roger you were an amazing human being.

[Dominique]

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Wow! I hope you never become sick, seriously sick. I'm afraid you are going to have an eye opener. Karma is a crazy thing.

Moving along thru this crazy post of yours. What tax are we paying that reimburses an under or uninsured auto owner for vehical theft? I live in the same state you are from, one of the MOST HEAVILY TAXED STATES in America, and I am not aware of this tax? Are you referring to uninsured motorist protection coverage? Isn't that for collision on your OWN
vehical?:seeingstars:

Have you seen the unemployment lines for people waiting to apply for 100 available positions? Maybe you live underneath a rock (I sometimes think I do) However, I am very aware of what this Occupy Wall Street movement is all about. You sound like a Tea Party person.

WoW. Just Wow.

[JustJo]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so please excuse me if I miss a point or something....but....I have to say that I think there is a middle ground when it comes to personal responsibility.

I am all for helping people out who are hit by a tornado, lose their job, get driven out of business by the WalMarts of the world, etc.

Yes, shit happens...and no one can be prepared for everything. There should be a safety net, and it should be adequate so that people can live with dignity.

However....I see a whole lot of people who fail to take personal responsibility when they can and then want everyone else to bail them out...and that frosts my cookies.

I work with a whole lot of people who make a good living....don't bother to save anything in their 401k because they'd rather spend it on a new car every year, and then whine that social security won't be enough to support them in a 20 year retirement. :blink: Really?

I live in an area (and bought a short sale house from a perfect example) where lots and lots of people went crazy pulling money out of their homes on home equity loans to buy toys....boats, RVs, fishing gear, 4 wheelers, electronic goodies....and then wanted the rest of us to bail them out when the bubble burst and they owed more on their homes than they could afford to pay each month, or more than the house was worth. :blink: Really?

I'm not talking about people who get sick, get shafted on their jobs, get preyed upon by predatory lenders....I'm talking about people who make piss poor choices, and then cry that they got a raw deal and want the government (i.e. your wallet and mine) to bail them out.

Like Jagg, that bothers me.
Yes, shit happens that people can't deal with...and they should be helped. But not everyone who's crying foul got dealt a bad hand either....they just got greedy, took a gamble, and lost.

[JAGG]

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

[Linus]

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?

[JAGG]

Its easy to have a car and no insurance. I buy a car off my neighbor. I have 30 days in the state of Oklahoma to tag it. I don't need proof of insurance until I tag it. I could go 29 days without.

[Julie]

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

[Dominique]

Its easy to have a car and no insurance. I buy a car off my neighbor. I have 30 days in the state of Oklahoma to tag it. I don't need proof of insurance until I tag it. I could go 29 days without.

What is this in reference to Jagg?

[MsMerrick]

These are not my photos, but they resemble and look, like many of the people I saw when I was down there.
This give s you a good feel for what and who is there:
portraits of people occupying Wall Street (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/34-portraits-of-people-occupying-wall-street)

This is also good...
14 Reasons People are Occupying Wall Street (http://www.buzzfeed.com/jpmoore/reasons-people-are-occupying-wall-street)

I have to go to work now. I am lucky that I have a job. No health Insurance, and no raise for over 10 years, but its a job....
I know so many people, falling through cracks..They are no longer cracks, they are fissures.. These aren't people that didn't work, or that did drugs, or misbehaved in general.. Just ordinary working people, that are now homeless.. and trying really hard to find work .. It just doesn't exist ..
I don't have time to go point by point ,but 1 ) Bankruptcies due to health problems, is NOT limited to those without Insurance, quite the contrary. 2 ) the idea that anyone can afford some kind of Insurance is ludicrous, and no way fits the reality., ..I really have to go, maybe later..

[atomiczombie]

This is a great article about income inequality in the US:

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

It's really worth reading, and illustrates how wealth is being squeezed out of the middle class and into the hands of the top 1%.

[theoddz]

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

Brother, I see your point entirely, but I also see how reality works for many folks, too. I'm not going to pick you apart for your view.

I think what it all boils down to is this. Most folks make choices based on the best they can do, at the time they have to do it in, with what they have to work with. Sometimes, a person can't always make the "best" choice that another person would agree with. Most of the time, it's entirely dependent on what you have to work with that your choices hinge on. There have been times in my life when I've had to make some rather unsavory choices, and perhaps someone else might have viewed what I chose to be a "wrong" choice, but I had nothing else to work with and few options to choose from. I ended up making a few choices that I didn't even agree with, and would have rather *not* done, ordinarily, but I did what I felt I had to do, with what I had to work with.

I think there are a lot of folks out there who are in some pretty desperate situations, and none of their options are what those of us, viewing it from the outside, would choose, but it is what it is for these folks. Who judges another's choices from the outside?? How do we fairly do that?? How do we know what another's priorities are in their situations?? We don't. We've *all* had tough times, at one time or another. It's the human experience.

Sometimes I shake my head when I see someone do something that I, personally, might think as being a "bad choice", but I seldom am in a position to know exactly what that person's situation is, and what their options truly are. For instance, as someone who has never had children of my own (because I didn't *choose* to have them), I could look at someone with 2-5 kids, who is living on $20K/yr (or less), and think to myself "Dayyyum, keep yer legz SHUT!!!", but you know, that person may have, as a priority in their lives, a desire for a (large??) family. Now, some/most of us might see that and think the same thing I think, but the reality for that person with the kids is that family, and having kids is *the* most important thing in their lives. They may or may not have been raised by their parents to have this as their priority, or they may have been raised in a large family with the same mentality. Their take on it is, "We'll have the family we want and we'll somehow make it, the same as my parents did when I was born. We'll get by somehow. We'll make it work." Someone like me, however, sees that as a piss poor choice in life. I don't share those priorities, so I have very little empathy for someone who just keeps "poppin' 'em out" with no idea about how they're going to provide for these kids. Still, do I get to judge?? Do I have a right to condemn?? I don't really care for folks like that to be driving my taxes up with an increased demand on public assistance. On the other hand, I collect disability from the federal government, based on the fact that I developed a severe health problem during my time in military service. Taxpayers pay me a rather good check every month, yet I'm able to still work (and I have a full time job) as I am able to. You know, that fact alone pisses a LOT of folks off. Thing is, they don't see or feel the pain I do as I move through my day with chronic severe pain. I "suck it up" most of the time and I don't complain about it. There's no need to. It is what it is, but I've made a *choice* to keep going and cope with this pain in order to fulfill my own priority of staying "useful" for as long as I can, as much as I can. These other folks who might want to stand in judgment of my choice don't know my personal circumstance, or might not understand my priority of needing to maintain "usefulness" as long as I can. For me, it's not money. My priority is, at the end of the day, what I think of myself. My self esteem is very much linked to my sense of "usefulness". So, who gets to judge me?? Who knows exactly how much I hurt, and what I go through to just be able to live MY priority....my need to be useful?? That's important to me, just as having that big family and "figuring it out as we go/living hand to mouth/living with public assistance". One person's priority might be someone else's view of a "poor choice". Who gets to judge??

I've had this discussion many times, over the years, with folks who have all sorts of different viewpoints. My conclusion is this......none of us have a right to judge others' choices. We're all doing the best we can, with what we have, with what we have to do it with, at the time we have to do it.

My .02 :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Sachita]

People have been socially hypnotized and manipulated by the great white lie. Their unpreparedness and ignorance is due to the fact that they believed in this "One Nation under God" bullshit. They ignored the facts and solicited the propaganda because they were lied to. They believed that social security would take care of them. It's not their fault.

As mentioned in other post most live pay check to pay check. It's a constant struggle just to stay afloat so it's no wonder they long to escape even if it's a form of sabotage. We are all victims of this trap.

My son wants to go to DC and I'm going to get him a ticket. He wants to stand up for his daughter's future. I am proud of him. I am worried but I am proud. I wondered why the fuck it took so long for people to actually do something. You are witness to a revolution we can not allow it to die. There are tons of people out there that STILL don't know what's going on or why. If you can't be there or financially support them then spend some time posting on facebook or anywhere you can giving people information and getting them proactive to do the same. If you live close to a city protesting find out how you can send blankets, jackets, sweat shirts, water, anything. Some people were unprepared- lol- Yep, sometimes passion rules!

[Dude]

JAGG,

Poor choices?
Maybe I should have refused a severance package from my teamster
job and maybe one day they would have eventually called me back.
Which would have been great had they called me in for 4 hours of
work because I would then be paid for 40 hours .The weeks they don't call you in,
you get nothing.

Starting over today is not like it was ,starting over 5 or 10 years ago,
I can assure you of that .

At 45 ,I may have been hired for jobs that now wont hire a 50 year old.
I will be fine .I know this somehow but there are people out there who
are 60 and people with less skills who wont be hired for anything but
part time minimum wage jobs (if they find work at all)
They drive a hooptie and decide feeding
their kids takes priority over fucking car insurance. I agree with them,it is.

It's like having no compassion for someone with a back injury until you
have one yourself ,its impossible to really relate maybe until you live it.

It's very easy to judge poor people until you become one.
I used to do the exact same thing maybe not to the level of
your recent posts but close.

[JustJo]

I've had this discussion many times, over the years, with folks who have all sorts of different viewpoints. My conclusion is this......none of us have a right to judge others' choices. We're all doing the best we can, with what we have, with what we have to do it with, at the time we have to do it.

My .02 :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

I totally hear you Theo; I really do. But isn't there a difference between judging someone's choices and paying for them?

Case in point....the family who owned this house before us.

They bought it 9 years ago, refinanced it five times, took the money and bought boats, 4 wheelers, fishing gear, an RV, cars, etc.

By the time they left, after not making a single mortgage payment in over a year, they owed 3 times what the house could sell for. The bank took the hit...sold it...and now I'm paying that smaller mortgage.

Honestly...their choices. I wouldn't make them. I prefer to keep my living expenses reasonable enough that I could pay them on a bartenders salary because, as you say....we can all be there, or have been there. I've been there. I dug myself into financial holes that took me years to dig out of and cost me dearly. I (mostly) learned my lesson.

So....they can refinance their house, bet on "pie in the sky" real estate speculation, and buy a mountain of toys that I couldn't afford even with the job I have now. When they left, they took the toys. They also stole the solar pool heaters off the roof, but that's another issue. They walked out on about $200,000 in debt....and we are all paying it off for them....while they still have their toys.

That just bothers me, and I don't think it's right.

To Linus' (and others) point...I have no idea how many people in foreclosure were like the previous owners here, and how many got caught in a bad situation they couldn't help....losing a job, health problems, etc. I don't think we should ignore the difference though. No, it's not easy to figure out who deserves help and who doesn't....but dang....I work hard and I can't afford a boat...yet the previous owners of this house still have one, while we all pay the higher fees and interest that the bank will be charging for years to make back that $200,000.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I often wonder why women get that whole keep your legs shut cast on them when they have more than the "right" amount of kids, why doesn't the other person HELPING make these children get told wrap that dick in a knot?? Why do we as women get shit upon over and over for giving birth to a child that was not a fucking immaculate conception.

FFS check your sexism and mysoginy at the fucking front door..

[Linus]

I totally hear you Theo; I really do. But isn't there a difference between judging someone's choices and paying for them?

Case in point....the family who owned this house before us.

They bought it 9 years ago, refinanced it five times, took the money and bought boats, 4 wheelers, fishing gear, an RV, cars, etc.

By the time they left, after not making a single mortgage payment in over a year, they owed 3 times what the house could sell for. The bank took the hit...sold it...and now I'm paying that smaller mortgage.

Honestly...their choices. I wouldn't make them. I prefer to keep my living expenses reasonable enough that I could pay them on a bartenders salary because, as you say....we can all be there, or have been there. I've been there. I dug myself into financial holes that took me years to dig out of and cost me dearly. I (mostly) learned my lesson.

So....they can refinance their house, bet on "pie in the sky" real estate speculation, and buy a mountain of toys that I couldn't afford even with the job I have now. When they left, they took the toys. They also stole the solar pool heaters off the roof, but that's another issue. They walked out on about $200,000 in debt....and we are all paying it off for them....while they still have their toys.

That just bothers me, and I don't think it's right.

To Linus' (and others) point...I have no idea how many people in foreclosure were like the previous owners here, and how many got caught in a bad situation they couldn't help....losing a job, health problems, etc. I don't think we should ignore the difference though. No, it's not easy to figure out who deserves help and who doesn't....but dang....I work hard and I can't afford a boat...yet the previous owners of this house still have one, while we all pay the higher fees and interest that the bank will be charging for years to make back that $200,000.

Like you, I would pay off the house and not refinance it. If I wanted a boat (not that I would) I would save and pay for that separately. The thing is I wonder how many cases are like yours versus those who wanted a house, got one that was within their price range (and didn't go for extravagant "extras" in life) and then got smacked by the recession. But right now, we're not even helping those who fit the latter situation. That is what the biggest challenges is right now. Because of the former (the person who spent well beyond their means during times of good and didn't prepare for the worst) everyone is being thrown under the bus.

As for the differences (unless this has changed), I know in Canada if you quit your job and there is no justifiable reason for it (e.g., health, wanting to do a significant career change, etc.) you don't get employment insurance. That said, I do believe that basic health care (e.g., to cover things like accidents, etc.) should be available. A healthy workforce and a reduction in stress makes for a far happier workforce.


As a tangent, my biggest beef right now is the banks charging rates well above those of those cheque cashing places. For all intents and purposes, banks are a form of legalized loan sharks. Interest rates are at less than 1% and mortgages are less than 4% (for 30 years). And yet, credit cards have fees that range from 25%+. I've never missed a payment and always pay more than minimum and yet, it got raised (I argued it back down but seriously!)

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Linus;433315]A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?[/QUOTE
You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

[Linus]

You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

Totally get that. But the way that I read your post (and perhaps it's my interpretation) is that EVERYONE who is at OWS or in need fits into the "stupid" choices category. As I posted, a few min ago, it often feels like ALL individuals (both those with not-so-great choices and those with circumstantial situations) are being thrown under the bus. Certainly it's being done by various parts of the media and others. We often focus, IMO, too much on the "poor choices" and not the ones that truly need help.

But that said, to me, there is a point where even the "poor choices" becomes something out of their control. Do we always say "You sucked at choices and we will never help you"? Is there a point where we say "You made a poor choice but still need help. Let's see what we can do?" (this questions are for everyone)

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Linus;433315]A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?[/QUOTE
You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

[JustJo]

Like you, I would pay off the house and not refinance it. If I wanted a boat (not that I would) I would save and pay for that separately. The thing is I wonder how many cases are like yours versus those who wanted a house, got one that was within their price range (and didn't go for extravagant "extras" in life) and then got smacked by the recession. But right now, we're not even helping those who fit the latter situation. That is what the biggest challenges is right now. Because of the former (the person who spent well beyond their means during times of good and didn't prepare for the worst) everyone is being thrown under the bus.

As for the differences (unless this has changed), I know in Canada if you quit your job and there is no justifiable reason for it (e.g., health, wanting to do a significant career change, etc.) you don't get employment insurance. That said, I do believe that basic health care (e.g., to cover things like accidents, etc.) should be available. A healthy workforce and a reduction in stress makes for a far happier workforce.


As a tangent, my biggest beef right now is the banks charging rates well above those of those cheque cashing places. For all intents and purposes, banks are a form of legalized loan sharks. Interest rates are at less than 1% and mortgages are less than 4% (for 30 years). And yet, credit cards have fees that range from 25%+. I've never missed a payment and always pay more than minimum and yet, it got raised (I argued it back down but seriously!)


Totally and absolutely agree....and that's one of the most frustrating things (to me) in this whole situation. People who got lied to by predatory lenders, people who lost their job and got caught in a market with no jobs to be had....they're all suffering because so many speculators got greedy and then called foul.

And...yea....me too on the credit card thing. Frustrating as hell.

Banks, I believe, need some serious regulation....and we need to organize a heck of a lot more credit unions that are non-profits, run cooperatively by members, who keep the costs of borrowing down. Banks, as they exist now, ARE loan sharks in my view...and it's disgusting.

[JustJo]

I often wonder why women get that whole keep your legs shut cast on them when they have more than the "right" amount of kids, why doesn't the other person HELPING make these children get told wrap that dick in a knot?? Why do we as women get shit upon over and over for giving birth to a child that was not a fucking immaculate conception.



Exactly. As the mother of one, whose father has fought paying child support since day one, and hasn't currently paid a dime in 2-1/2 years.....amen.

The packet of information is being put together now for child support enforcement...and no doubt he'll squeal when he has his tax returns taken, wages garnisheed, drivers license and passport pulled if he doesn't comply, etc. No doubt, I'll be the greedy bitch and he'll tell everyone how unfairly he's being treated. He'll try to play the victim in all of this.

What he'll ignore is the total responsibility I've taken for the last 14 years of food, allowances, clothes, housing, medical insurance, dental bills, college fund, glasses every year, school incidentals, vacations, etc.

No doubt he'll consider it horribly unfair. Poor baby.

Having children is a huge responsibility...on the part of both parents.

[weatherboi]

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

[JustJo]

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

This is absolutely true for a lot of people. I also wonder though about where we draw the line on believing the banks and credit card companies.

Every time I've gone to the bank for pre-approval on a mortgage, they've approved me for about double the amount that I personally felt comfortable paying and knew I could afford.

Is that their responsibility or mine?

Maybe what we need is to have more heavily regulated truth in lending, and more education about personal finances and money management in the schools. Just thinking aloud here....not really having an answer.

I understand the feeling of "screw this, I'm never going to get even on this mortgage" and the urge to walk away on the part of people who bought at the peak of the market. But what about those (like this house's previous owners) who bought low, refinanced like mad to play, and then walked away?

For me, those are two very different scenarios.

ETA: Grant, I totally agree with one thing you mentioned and then forgot to include it :)
In my opinion, the biggest speculators in this real estate disaster were the banks. They made loans that were absolutely ridiculously inflated, and fed the real estate bubble all along. They, of all people, should have known better....and been saner...in both the amounts they loaned on property, and on the types of loans they made.

[atomiczombie]

Jagg,

I just want to say that when my ex-wife and I got together I had 2 credit cards and a total of $300 debt between them. By the time we split up, between my 2 cards we were about $12,000 in debt. There are many reasons, part of which is that she wanted to spend spend spend and we argued about it, and I unfortunately gave in way too much because I hadn't learned to stand up for myself back then. She was also someone who would never back down from an argument, and had I not backed down our argument would just go on and on. I gave in because she wore me down. My bad.

Then she got laid off from her job in the mortgage dept at B of A in Concord, CA. That was in 2003. I was the only one working, and I made about $12-13 per hour. She went on unemployment, and our monthly income plummeted. I sold my Harley to pay bills. We had an apartment, a kid, and a car payment. We also were paying COBRA for my wife's healthcare since losing her job, which was 100s of dollars more per month. We ended up getting behind on our bills and paying for basic things like groceries with my credit cards. Her credit was so bad that she didn't have any credit cards. She refused to allow me to ask my parents for financial help. Well, I say allow because that was about fight that there was no way for me to win. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and very controlling.

When I finally left her after years of taking this abuse, she decided she wasn't going to pay her half of my credit card debt. She said that would count for my child support. Because we had missed payments, my rate was 30%. Before I had been with my ex-wife, I had excellent credit and was responsible with my money. I hadn't anticipated that things would end up this way. I had mistakenly thought that she would get another job soon and we would climb out of this financial hole. Instead, she decided not to look for another job and just take some classes to gain some more skills. She stayed on unemployment for a year. It wasn't until the end of that year that I left her, because she couldn't get by w/o my income. We had a child. I wasn't comfortable leaving them w/o an income that would sustain their basic needs.

When I left my ex-wife, I was making $13/hr and couldn't afford to pay much more than the minimum payments, but I always paid a little more just to try to get it paid down. I had a small dive of an apartment and no car payments. I got by ok, but at the rate I was going, it would have taken me decades to pay it off. I was faithful with my payments. I was never late or missed any of them. I called my credit card companies asking them to lower my rates. B of A told me I had to make all my payments on time for 6 months and then they would decrease it. 6 months came and went and I was still being charged 29.99%. Same with my Citibank card. No matter how many payments I made on time, neither bank would lower my rates. My parents ended up paying off my cards after a few years, because they saw how ridiculous my situation was.

That is how a lot of people end up with piles of debt they have no way to pay back. Yes, you could say I am at fault because of the choices I made. However, I wasn't able to anticipate how it would all turn out. I was in a bad marriage to someone I shouldn't have been with. I didn't see all the red flags ahead of time, because I had grown up with years of abuse and wasn't able to see those red flags. I was naive about a lot of things. I learned a lot of difficult lessons. I guess that is part of growing up. I now have zero credit card debt. I never use my cards under any circumstances. If I want something I save for it and if I can't save for it, then I don't need it. I am on disability so I am very poor.

People get into a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I think it's unfair to assume that you know all the ins and outs of a situation just on the face of it. People are human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean that the system isn't stacked against them and inherently unfair. It is.

[theoddz]

Oh, wait a sec and let me clarify this.....

I didn't mean that *I* would look at someone and think "Keep yer legz shut". I was, well, using "myself" in the vernacular way, to illustrate how I've heard people talk about that kind of a situation. To further clarify *my* own personal point of view, birth control is, to my knowledge, available for both males and females. I certainly don't believe that women should bear the brunt of pregnancy prevention over the responsibility of men to do the same thing!!! I think it's a matter of personal responsibility for both, in the issue of consensual sexual relations!!

You know, I just try to not take an opinion when I see what I perceive to be gross irresponsibility in a person's choices. I don't walk in their shoes, so I don't think I get to judge, because just looking from the outside at a stranger (say, in the grocery store) I don't know their circumstance, or their priorities in life. I am, however, *very* human and I have to catch myself from making judgments. I'll own that!!! I just don't think that's always fair to do that to everyone who makes what I think is a poor choice.

Oh no, birth control is *everyone's* responsibility. Now, things like rape and such are a totally different matter.....entirely different.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[JAGG]

I am going tell you my experience in realestate and forecloures. You read a story about a person. Who got sick or injuried house is in foreclosure and you think we should bail him out. I own an investment business. We buy houses that have been forclosed on . I get to see these cases up close and in person I know the details of the reasons why the house forclosed. I have been doing this for 9 years now.you can say I lack empathy, I say you are naive and lack experience and facts. Here is a real truelife case. Family with 2 kids dad gets hurt can't work. He is a welder hurt his back. Wife works teaches 3rd grade. He can't work they fall behind house goes into forclosure. 3 months later bank takes possestion. They still occupy home. Free for 3 months now . They have at least 7 different notices to vacate they don't . 5 months later bank trys to sell it at auction. We buy it. 8 months they are there for free, we knock on the door to inform them we bought their house they should have been out 8 months. We talk and agree on a plan for them to move out they are usually pretty understanding. We actually pay them 250 dollars to be moved out within the agreed time frame. His wife has a brand newDodge Dakota less than a year old. He had. Dodge ram less than 2 yrs old. And a minivan 5 years old. They were saving it for the 15yr old when he learns to drive. Nice guy we talked about everything he showed me around. He had a 55 in led tv he was. Proud to show me that all its features. And surround sound. Then he shows me the garage where he has 7 dirt bikes. He and his 2 kids, love playing in the mud. 7 dirt bikes? 3 new cars? Really? I wish I had a 55in led with suround sound.
You want to bail this poor guy out? He can't work bad back . Medical condition not his fault long term unemployed , fore closed on , he fits all your criteria. You think he is an acception to the rule? I will tell you he is not. You hear his story in the news, you don't know the facts just the sad story of an innocent family kicked out,into the cold because of unforesseen medical problems. I flipped about 21 houses all but 4 fit your criteria. Out of those 17 I will tell you only 1 fit the real picture, the one the media paints . I will give you more examples later on.

[AtLast]

Angela Davis- both parents college educated, professionals as well as her father a business owner. She is a graduate of an Ivy League university. And a professor.


Caesar Chavez- his father owned not only a grocery store, but a large ranch in AZ. During the Great Depression, their land was lost and never recovered by the family. Thus- how Chavez began working as a migrant worker. His roots are middle class. This is a story of many in the US during that time period.

Joan Baez (not just a folk singer)- father was one of our leading physicists (co-invented the x-ray microscope) and served as a diplomat for the US in UNESCO. His family was highly educated in seminary as was her mother’s family, originally from Scotland.

Alex Haley- both parents highly educated, his father a professor of agriculture and his mother a teacher. Very much a middle-class New York family. And well, Haley is one of our most brilliant minds and writers.

There are many civil rights movement leaders of color that did not come from poor backgrounds and were middle-class. A pet peeve of an African American man I dated in college during the 70’s was that “white people immediately assume we are all poor and from the same kinds of backgrounds“- (paraphrasing).

A central theme throughout the social movements in the 1960’s and 70’s is that college and university campuses served as fertile grounds for free speech and political activism. Access to higher education has always been slanted toward middle or upper middle-class people, even among minorities. Many did find access that were from very desperate backgrounds, but not all. After JFK’s initial “affirmative action” executive order in the early 60’s, doors opened to many that it had shut on previously.

If you go back and look at the suffrage movement, you will find a very distinct middle and upper middle class- and very white grouping of leaders. Although, take a look at African American women in the 1800’s that were part of social movements in the US.

The other thing that amazes me about these conversations is that are many of us in the age group of the 60’s and 70’s activism and were there! I had many conversations with “sisters” & “brothers” telling me that most of the people they wanted to represent had no way of taking to the streets because of their socio-economic class. But, this is only my story from one region of the US at that time.

One of my pet peeves here is that so often, one or two sentences are quoted from a post and flamed. The rest of one’s comments and thoughts are left out. One reason, I quote entire posts so that the entire context is available for other’s to look at. I do this even with lengthy posts because I don’t think is fair to “cherry pick” someone’s post and then take aim. Also, there are some members that take the time to explain where they are coming from and I think I ought to honor their entire process.


It looks like the thread is getting back to the OP’s initial ideas for discussion- good because this is really an important thing going on.

[theoddz]

This is absolutely true for a lot of people. I also wonder though about where we draw the line on believing the banks and credit card companies.

Every time I've gone to the bank for pre-approval on a mortgage, they've approved me for about double the amount that I personally felt comfortable paying and knew I could afford.

Is that their responsibility or mine?

Maybe what we need is to have more heavily regulated truth in lending, and more education about personal finances and money management in the schools. Just thinking aloud here....not really having an answer.

I understand the feeling of "screw this, I'm never going to get even on this mortgage" and the urge to walk away on the part of people who bought at the peak of the market. But what about those (like this house's previous owners) who bought low, refinanced like mad to play, and then walked away?

For me, those are two very different scenarios.

ETA: Grant, I totally agree with one thing you mentioned and then forgot to include it :)
In my opinion, the biggest speculators in this real estate disaster were the banks. They made loans that were absolutely ridiculously inflated, and fed the real estate bubble all along. They, of all people, should have known better....and been saner...in both the amounts they loaned on property, and on the types of loans they made.

Jo, I'm in total agreement with you on the fact that I think that too many people, in general, don't know enough about how to use money, and how financial matters work, like loans, interest, etc. Spending money is a huge emotional issue for many. How many times have we seen people refer to spending money for emotional reasons call it "retail therapy"??

As a post-Greatest Generation group of Boomers, Gen X'ers, Gen Y'ers, etc., we're used to "good times" and all of these wonderfully new gadgets, gizmos, cell phones, IPads, E-Readers, whathaveyou. More specifically, we've bought into the idea that we (generic "we") have absolute entitlement to these and that we should have them, even if it means going financially out on a limb for them and buying them with funds we don't have now (the credit card phenomenon)!! The media and sales/marketing has conditioned us to believe that. It's been pushed on us. At the same time, no one has really taught us, as a group, how money works. I recently read the book, "Rich Dad/Poor Dad" and it really hit me how even the best and most money-savy of our parents/elders never really taught us how to handle money responsibly. Oh yes, I think we've all gotten such vague direction as "don't spend more than you make", and "pay your bills on time" and, "save your money", but how many people here have honestly been taught, by their parents, or even their educational systems, how to buy a house?? What about how interest actually works, and what the various types of loans are out there?? How many people, before they entered those mortgage contracts that were sold to them by predatory lenders, took the trouble to educate themselves about the home buying process?? Did anyone ever teach these same folks to sit down with a pencil and paper (and a calculator) to do simple addition and subtraction so they could figure out for themselves how much they could spend and how much they should save?? How about figuring out a simple household budget?? Not many, let me tell you.

Money matters have gotten far more complicated, over the years, and education about these things just hasn't happened. That's how we've all been hoodwinked. If you dumb people down, you can take advantage of them. Simple as that. This is one big thing I am so angry about, in recent years. This country has been systematically dismantling our educational system and it's been happening right under our noses, while we're distracted with games, gadgets, television, too damned much entertainment and too few useful financial education programs in our schools. Does anyone remember the old Economics classes we used to have in the 60's, 70's and 80's?? Those have gone nearly entirely away. Those classes, for those who can't remember them, and those who never heard of them, were the ones that taught us how to balance a checkbook, how to make a simple household budget and how to calculate interest and use a basic expenses spreadsheet. We're just not teaching our kids these skills anymore and now an entire generation(s) has been the victim, wholesale, of financial swindling. This is criminal, but we allowed it to happen!!!!! No fucking wonder our children are afraid to face the world when they graduate from our high schools these days!!! Where is the fucking outrage??? :rant:

This entire financial crisis, worldwide, is the simple result of our being completely and totally distracted by the commercial world, while the carpet was slowly being yanked out from under us. We let it happen.

IMHO, there's nothing left to do now but revolt.

I think another American Revolution is on the new horizon.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Dude]

I am going tell you my experience in realestate and forecloures. You read a story about a person. Who got sick or injuried house is in foreclosure and you think we should bail him out. I own an investment business. We buy houses that have been forclosed on . I get to see these cases up close and in person I know the details of the reasons why the house forclosed. I have been doing this for 9 years now.you can say I lack empathy, I say you are naive and lack experience and facts. Here is a real truelife case. Family with 2 kids dad gets hurt can't work. He is a welder hurt his back. Wife works teaches 3rd grade. He can't work they fall behind house goes into forclosure. 3 months later bank takes possestion. They still occupy home. Free for 3 months now . They have at least 7 different notices to vacate they don't . 5 months later bank trys to sell it at auction. We buy it. 8 months they are there for free, we knock on the door to inform them we bought their house they should have been out 8 months. We talk and agree on a plan for them to move out they are usually pretty understanding. We actually pay them 250 dollars to be moved out within the agreed time frame. His wife has a brand newDodge Dakota less than a year old. He had. Dodge ram less than 2 yrs old. And a minivan 5 years old. They were saving it for the 15yr old when he learns to drive. Nice guy we talked about everything he showed me around. He had a 55 in led tv he was. Proud to show me that all its features. And surround sound. Then he shows me the garage where he has 7 dirt bikes. He and his 2 kids, love playing in the mud. 7 dirt bikes? 3 new cars? Really? I wish I had a 55in led with suround sound.
You want to bail this poor guy out? He can't work bad back . Medical condition not his fault long term unemployed , fore closed on , he fits all your criteria. You think he is an acception to the rule? I will tell you he is not. You hear his story in the news, you don't know the facts just the sad story of an innocent family kicked out,into the cold because of unforesseen medical problems. I flipped about 21 houses all but 4 fit your criteria. Out of those 17 I will tell you only 1 fit the real picture, the one the media paints . I will give you more examples later on.


Real story.
My cousin married a very successful top mortgage director guy of some sort.
Six figure income, things were great ,they bought a home ,had two kids.

Several years later he loses his job. His youngest has severe autism and
requires 24/7 care (which requires my cousin to be a stay at home mom)
Now their oldest (12 years old) has been diagnosed with diabetes and
has to have daily insulin shots and medical testing to get her all balanced
enough to attend school.
They gave up their two car's which required payments for two that are paid for.
They need two because driving around in the car sometimes is the only thing they
can do to calm their autistic child when he's having a rough patch.
He has been working 6 days a week for the last two years just so his family can have medical insurance.
They have defaulted on their mortgage and are still there two years later.
For free, as you call it.
All of their toys and fancy shit was sold when the youngest was diagnosed.


I think you lack a great deal of empathy and you can keep coming up
with loser stories who you think deserve to be homeless all day long if thats what makes you feel better.

Some of us are not talking stuff, we are talking about survival.
Go buy your big tv now while things are great for you .That may
not always be the case.

[JustJo]

Real story.
My cousin married a very successful top mortgage director guy of some sort.
Six figure income, things were great ,they bought a home ,had two kids.

Several years later he loses his job. His youngest has severe autism and
requires 24/7 care (which requires my cousin to be a stay at home mom)
Now their oldest (12 years old) has been diagnosed with diabetes and
has to have daily insulin shots and medical testing to get her all balanced
enough to attend school.
They gave up their two car's which required payments for two that are paid for.
They need two because driving around in the car sometimes is the only thing they
can do to calm their autistic child when he's having a rough patch.
He has been working 6 days a week for the last two years just so his family can have medical insurance.
They have defaulted on their mortgage and are still there two years later.
For free, as you call it.
All of their toys and fancy shit was sold when the youngest was diagnosed.


I think you lack a great deal of empathy and you can keep coming up
with loser stories who you think deserve to be homeless all day long if thats what makes you feel better.

Some of us are not talking stuff, we are talking about survival.
Go buy your big tv now while things are great for you .That may
not always be the case.

These are the kinds of people that I really feel for, and who need to get a break.

What do you do when you have kids who are ill, who are disabled, who need you there 24/7? You do the best you can....and one of the biggest failures of our society (I think) is that there aren't enough supports available for people who find themselves in this kind of a situation.

I don't know what the answer is....but a better health care system, better childcare supports (especially for kids with health issues or special needs...who frequently can't access "regular" child care)...certainly couldn't hurt.

[Corkey]

Dear Mr. :

Thank you for taking the time to contact me about campaign finance reform. I appreciate hearing from you about this issue.

On January 21, 2010, the Supreme Court issued a ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that overturns long-standing campaign finance laws and prohibits the government from banning political spending by corporations in candidate elections. The Court’s 5-4 decision held unconstitutional parts of the Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) and the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 (BCRA), (sometimes referred to as the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law). It also overturned two precedents: Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, which upheld restrictions on corporate spending to support or oppose political candidates, and McConnell v. Federal Election Commission, which upheld the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law’s restriction on campaign spending by corporations and unions.

According to the Court’s majority, restricting corporations from directly participating in elections violates the right to free speech guaranteed under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. By holding that corporations have the same constitutional right to free speech as individuals, this ruling represents a fundamental doctrinal shift. Although the full extent of the ruling’s impact is not yet known, this is a significant decision that many believe could reshape the political landscape by increasing the power of corporate special interests and the role of money in politics. Those with the deepest pockets, such as Wall Street, Big Oil and insurance companies, may have a greater influence in future elections.

President Obama, some Members of Congress and legal scholars have criticized the ruling as overreaching and setting a dangerous precedent. Others believe the ruling accurately interprets the First Amendment. I strongly believe that our democracy hinges on fair and transparent elections, and I will continue to advocate for limiting the influence of corporate special interests in politics.

In response to the Citizens United decision, S. 3295, the Democracy Is Strengthened by Casting Light On Spending in Elections (DISCLOSE) Act was introduced in the Senate on April 30, 2010. The DISCLOSE Act, of which I was a cosponsor, would place controls on the flood of special interest money in elections by requiring new disclaimers on all television advertisements that are funded by special interests, including an appearance by the CEO of the corporation running the ad. It would also prevent government contractors and corporate beneficiaries of TARP from spending money on elections. Moreover, the DISCLOSE Act would close loopholes and prevent foreign-controlled entities from spending unlimited amounts of money through their US-based subsidiaries and require all corporations and advocacy groups that make political expenditures to establish easy-to-track campaign accounts.

On both July 27 and September 23, a revised version of the bill, S. 3628, came before the full Senate for consideration. In both instances, I joined many of my colleagues in voting to proceed with consideration, but the measure did not garner the necessary 60 votes. In order for this legislation to be considered by the full Senate, it must be reintroduced in the 112th Congress, which began on January 5, 2011. As always, I appreciate your views, thoughts and concerns as they assist me in understanding what is important to the people of Pennsylvania.

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future about this or any other matter of importance to you.

If you have access to the Internet, I encourage you to visit my web site, http://casey.senate.gov. I invite you to use this online office as a comprehensive resource to stay up-to-date on my work in Washington, request assistance from my office or share with me your thoughts on the issues that matter most to you and to Pennsylvania.

Sincerely,
Bob Casey
United States Senator

[atomiczombie]

http://www.occupytogether.org/

This is kind of a central hub for the various Occupy branches of the movement.

[atomiczombie]

This is an older article but still has some good stuff:

http://www.alternet.org/economy/152481/11_things_you_can_do_to_help_the_'occupy_wall_stre et'_movement

[JAGG]

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.
Go back and read my post. I wasn't talking about what I would do on a personal level , I am refering to what tax payers should fund as far as gov, programs what's an individual responsibilty what's gov. responsibility.
When you are done rereading my post, tell me where in my post I said we shouldn't help people of catastrophic events, also show me where it says I wouldn't help a neighbor in need. "Maybe I will find out one day and my tune will change"? Is that YOUR attempt to invite me in, and school me, on what you think I should have done to be more like you?
Yes somethings in life one can't be prepared with money or planning alone, somethings become more expensive than you could have ever planned for. But some can!!! I am saying when you can , you should. If you opt not to it's your choice, but don't look for people to bail you out when you make the wrong choice. It's not fair to people who opted to sacrifice new shoes, a new car, a plasma tv, pack their lunch not eat out everyday, to put money aside to pay for extra insurance. It's wrong to shrug your personal responsibility and expect others to pick up your slack, when your shrugging causes you dismay.

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Julie;433282]True Story!

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was diagnosed with full blown AIDS 2 years ago. He lost his job because of illness, yet managed to find another one - less paying and without insurance. He could not go to the doctors for general care (just for his aids) and a year ago was diagnosed with Colon Cancer. He was at risk of losing his car - he could not make the car payments, which having a car might not seem like a lot - but it meant, he could not get his HIV treatment. No mass transit where he lived. We as a community raised a few thousand dollars to try and get him on his feet.

He died from a massive infection. He would NEVER have become so ill, had they found the colon cancer earlier, but he did not have insurance. He could not get help. It was too late for him. He died because of our country - our country killed him.



Julie,
I agree 100 percent. Our health care system sucks . The way we treat our elderly and disabled including terminal illnesses, is a crying shame!!!!!!!! It's pathetic that an elderly person has to decide whether to buy their meds or food for the month. We all know alot of the problems would be easy to fix. Another good reason for these protests.

[JAGG]

Real story.
My cousin married a very successful top mortgage director guy of some sort.
Six figure income, things were great ,they bought a home ,had two kids.

Several years later he loses his job. His youngest has severe autism and
requires 24/7 care (which requires my cousin to be a stay at home mom)
Now their oldest (12 years old) has been diagnosed with diabetes and
has to have daily insulin shots and medical testing to get her all balanced
enough to attend school.
They gave up their two car's which required payments for two that are paid for.
They need two because driving around in the car sometimes is the only thing they
can do to calm their autistic child when he's having a rough patch.
He has been working 6 days a week for the last two years just so his family can have medical insurance.
They have defaulted on their mortgage and are still there two years later.
For free, as you call it.
All of their toys and fancy shit was sold when the youngest was diagnosed.


I think you lack a great deal of empathy and you can keep coming up
with loser stories who you think deserve to be homeless all day long if thats what makes you feel better.

Some of us are not talking stuff, we are talking about survival.
Go buy your big tv now while things are great for you .That may
not always be the case.

Again go back and read my post and tell me where I said this guy deserves to be homeless. You're ok with paying his mortgage when he isn't willing to sell a car? Sell some dirt bikes? He could have sold 3 of the 7 dirt bikes and paid his mortgage for a year. Sold the minivan and paid his mortgage for almost 2 years. He isn't willing to take personal responsibilty to honor his obligations , but I'm supposed to be okay funding a program to honor his obligations for him. Well I'm not okay with that. You want to say I lack empathy for that? Go ahead I will wear your false title like a badge of honor. I'm getting a little tired of your personal attacks and jabs and insults. Stick to the facts and your point of veiw on things. If you disagree, fine you disagree . I'm not going to allow you to disrespect my opinion with your personal assaults. Also this guys was not a loser in any way shape or form, he was a very nice guy and seemed like a great dad. He just has his priorities screwed up, and is financially irresponsible.

[Corkey]

I think the point is being missed. No, you aren't funding the programs for this particular guy, when in fact this particular guy abused the system. The programs are there for the people like Dude's friend, and Julie's friend, a me and any other person who is in true need. There will always be the few who abuse the system, but throwing out the baby with the bath water doesn't seem very empathetic now does it.

[JAGG]

Jagg,

I just want to say that when my ex-wife and I got together I had 2 credit cards and a total of $300 debt between them. By the time we split up, between my 2 cards we were about $12,000 in debt. There are many reasons, part of which is that she wanted to spend spend spend and we argued about it, and I unfortunately gave in way too much because I hadn't learned to stand up for myself back then. She was also someone who would never back down from an argument, and had I not backed down our argument would just go on and on. I gave in because she wore me down. My bad.

Then she got laid off from her job in the mortgage dept at B of A in Concord, CA. That was in 2003. I was the only one working, and I made about $12-13 per hour. She went on unemployment, and our monthly income plummeted. I sold my Harley to pay bills. We had an apartment, a kid, and a car payment. We also were paying COBRA for my wife's healthcare since losing her job, which was 100s of dollars more per month. We ended up getting behind on our bills and paying for basic things like groceries with my credit cards. Her credit was so bad that she didn't have any credit cards. She refused to allow me to ask my parents for financial help. Well, I say allow because that was about fight that there was no way for me to win. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and very controlling.

When I finally left her after years of taking this abuse, she decided she wasn't going to pay her half of my credit card debt. She said that would count for my child support. Because we had missed payments, my rate was 30%. Before I had been with my ex-wife, I had excellent credit and was responsible with my money. I hadn't anticipated that things would end up this way. I had mistakenly thought that she would get another job soon and we would climb out of this financial hole. Instead, she decided not to look for another job and just take some classes to gain some more skills. She stayed on unemployment for a year. It wasn't until the end of that year that I left her, because she couldn't get by w/o my income. We had a child. I wasn't comfortable leaving them w/o an income that would sustain their basic needs.

When I left my ex-wife, I was making $13/hr and couldn't afford to pay much more than the minimum payments, but I always paid a little more just to try to get it paid down. I had a small dive of an apartment and no car payments. I got by ok, but at the rate I was going, it would have taken me decades to pay it off. I was faithful with my payments. I was never late or missed any of them. I called my credit card companies asking them to lower my rates. B of A told me I had to make all my payments on time for 6 months and then they would decrease it. 6 months came and went and I was still being charged 29.99%. Same with my Citibank card. No matter how many payments I made on time, neither bank would lower my rates. My parents ended up paying off my cards after a few years, because they saw how ridiculous my situation was.

That is how a lot of people end up with piles of debt they have no way to pay back. Yes, you could say I am at fault because of the choices I made. However, I wasn't able to anticipate how it would all turn out. I was in a bad marriage to someone I shouldn't have been with. I didn't see all the red flags ahead of time, because I had grown up with years of abuse and wasn't able to see those red flags. I was naive about a lot of things. I learned a lot of difficult lessons. I guess that is part of growing up. I now have zero credit share redit card debt. I never use my cards under any circumstances. If I want something I save for it and if I can't save for it, then I don't need it. I am on disability so I am very poor.

People get into a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I think it's unfair to assume that you know all the ins and outs of a situation just on the face of it. People are human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean that the system isn't stacked against them and inherently unfair. It is.

I totally understand your situation. I had certain things happen to me and had to start over from scratch twice in my life. Sorry that happened to you. It sucks but it builds character. :)

[JAGG]

What is this in reference to Jagg?

That reference was from an earlier post of Julie's. I was using my cell phone . It has voice to text, but it's too diffcult to copy and paste. Sorry for the confusion.

[Dude]

Go back and read my post. I wasn't talking about what I would do on a personal level , I am refering to what tax payers should fund as far as gov, programs what's an individual responsibilty what's gov. responsibility.
When you are done rereading my post, tell me where in my post I said we shouldn't help people of catastrophic events, also show me where it says I wouldn't help a neighbor in need. "Maybe I will find out one day and my tune will change"? Is that YOUR attempt to invite me in, and school me, on what you think I should have done to be more like you?
Yes somethings in life one can't be prepared with money or planning alone, somethings become more expensive than you could have ever planned for. But some can!!! I am saying when you can , you should. If you opt not to it's your choice, but don't look for people to bail you out when you make the wrong choice. It's not fair to people who opted to sacrifice new shoes, a new car, a plasma tv, pack their lunch not eat out everyday, to put money aside to pay for extra insurance. It's wrong to shrug your personal responsibility and expect others to pick up your slack, when your shrugging causes you dismay.

I know exactly what your post said. I thought maybe if I took it to a more personal level you would think about it all, with a more open mind.

If I had people calling me ignorant and lacking empathy I would try to be a bit more teachable.
So, no you and I are nothing alike. I'm cool with that.

[AtLast]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-07/wall-street-protests-risk-harm-to-nyc-economy-mayor-says.html

I can't help but think back to what mayors and other politicians said in the 60's and 70's about demonstrations. It took them all awhile to understand that people were taking a stand on things that deeply effect their lives.

I have been thinking about how these deomstrations are not on college campuses but the financial centers and willbe much more disruptive. But, I don't see how the protestors can make their point any other way and finally be heard.

[JAGG]

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

Of course my feelings could be wrong. But I'm not someone who would shoot off my mouth unless I had facts and real life experience , and my experiences have caused me to render the conclusions that my feelings and opinions are based on. I in no way ever think I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm simply stating the truth as I know it,what my experience has been and why my view may differ from yours. You know I love ya Julie. I know I pushed your buttons so I'm going to try to unpush them by explaining what I mean a little better. Because I know when there is a passionate debate people will tend to read into things and tempers flair . So here's a little better explaination. Keep in mind you may not agree with me. There is a hurricane coming been getting reports 2 weeks solid. Everyone is told to evacuate. But instead of doing the right thing, some guy decides I'm not going to do the right thing, even though I'm taking a risk and I know what could happen, I'm gonna stick it out take my chances. The worst occurs. Now he has had warning after warning, 3 days of mandatory evacuations. Even had sheriffs going door to door in case someone was home bound. He still stayed. Now he is in a bad mess, he is forced to the roof top because the house is completely flooded. He is watching home after home swept away and he knows he screwed up. So he calls 911. Now the police the fireman and paramedics have to risk their lives , in white cap rapids, of rancid water full of virus's , bacteria dead animals you name it , to save this guy. Should the tax payers have to foot the bill for the rescue? No way!!! He should. Am I saying he shouldn't be rescued. Hell no I'm not saying that. Did I say he deserves to die , hell no didn't say that either. What I'm saying is he should have to pay for his poor choice, not us. And if a fireman or policeman dies trying to save him, he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter on top of paying for the cost of the rescue service. It's not fair to have to pay for someone else because they made poor choices. I don't agree with it. If that makes me lack empathy so be it. What I can't for the life of me understand is why people think we should. Why people think no one should have to take responsibilty for their actions boggles my mind. You don't think that is a good definition of stupitidy, staying even though you knew you should leave? I do .That was a poor choice . you make call me judgemental I call it a fact. That was plain old fashion stupid, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Now let me guess what's gong happen. Someone is going to read this post. Get pissed and come up with some crazy scenerio that has nothing to do with what I am talking about then try to accuse me of meaning something I never even came close to thinking . Like this , well JAGG what if a steel mill blows up and 50 houses catch on fire, or what if a train derails and spews toxic liquid into a neighborhood, or a gas line explodes and burns up a nursing home, are you going make those people pay to be rescued too. Lets hope your house never catches on fire you never need to be rescued. It's clear you have never had any thing bad ever happen to you and you don't know what it's like to have your arms and legs cut off and need a paramedic. My 3rd cousin didnt tie his shoes one day and tripped on his lace fell down the steps broke his hip had to call a Paramedic are you saying that's his fault and he has to pay for his bad choice?????? I guess you would just leave him there to die. Because he didn't make the same choice you would have, he is just plain old fashion stupid and deserves to die. I think you're the stupid one. :|

[Corkey]

What if JAGG, he were 80 years old and didn't have a car and couldn't find anyone to take him out of harms way. Sound familiar? Katrina anyone? Not everyone has a choice as you put it, and some choices are not really a choice at all.

[JAGG]

I think the point is being missed. No, you aren't funding the programs for this particular guy, when in fact this particular guy abused the system. The programs are there for the people like Dude's friend, and Julie's friend, a me and any other person who is in true need. There will always be the few who abuse the system, but throwing out the baby with the bath water doesn't seem very empathetic now does it.

I have no problem under the sun funding a program for people in need. People who truely are ill or penny less by no fault of their own. I'd give my last penny to help someone. Gladly.
I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. But you could save money on diapers that way. :happyjump:

[JAGG]

:seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstar s::seeingstars:What if JAGG, he were 80 years old and didn't have a car and couldn't find anyone to take him out of harms way. Sound familiar? Katrina anyone? Not everyone has a choice as you put it, and some choices are not really a choice at all.:seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeing stars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seei ngstars::seeingstars:

[Mr.Nobody]

I wonder how many bankers and developers and "investors" ever said...hmmm...I don't think these people can afford this home...let's not take their money....

I went this evening, to Occupy Pueblo...I met many people, old and young...some monied, some flat ass broke. Men, women and children of every shape and size and kind were there. I listened to stories of losing family businesses and hungry children and medical bills and job loss. I watched people weep, telling about how scared they are. I saw the fire in their eyes when they talked about how mad they are. I saw them shaking hands and hugging and talking about how can we make things better.

But I didn't hear one of the tell the story of yeah...I ripped off the government and had 6 motorcycles I couldn't pay for and my wife had a new mercedes and my kids were in private school and we ate steak and lobster every night. Now I know these folks are out there, but I really believe they are the exception, not the rule.

I did hear an old woman speak though. She told of her husband of 52 years that had died awhile back. They didn't have any kids and little savings. She had to sell the house to help pay off debt. The house sat for some time and her bills were piling up. By "chance" she met a "real estate developer". He came in and looked around her home. He offered her $58,000. At first she said no, because she was asking $72,000. But another 2 months went by with no better offers and she finally sold. The "developer" painted the house inside and out. Refinished the hardwood floors and "updated" the kitchen. One month later, her house was back on the market for $213,000. Boy, I guess she made the "wrong" choice there! Good thing she's paying for it now living in a rent controlled one bedroom studio apartment!

There is no ONE answer. But EVERYONE should have a voice. People SHOULD be able to say...no, please don't spend my tax dollars bailing out people who want to live off the system. People SHOULD be able to say...no, please don't send all those hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas. People SHOULD be able to say...yes, please pay our teachers more because they are the future of our children! People SHOULD be able to say...no, please mr senators, don't vote yourselves another pay raise. People SHOULD be able to say...yes please, let those people get married. People SHOULD be able to say...no please, don't use $83 kazillion dollars to bail out those assholes that took our money!!!! And they SHOULD be able to expect their voices heard. ALL PEOPLE!!! Even the one's who have made "wrong, stupid, bad, lazy or poor" choices.

And theoretically that's the way our government is supposed to work. But when was the last time your alderman, or congressman or governor came to visit your house to sit over tea and chat about what kinds of things you would like to see changed?
It's time for change......yes?

[SoNotHer]

Eric Cantor is a maroon. The fact that the Republicans are continuing business as usual (that is, there is no economic problem and that it's all about the "moral fabric") is not surprising.

His comments here are more telling:


I like your spelling, Linus. In fact he is a marooned moron. :-)

[SoNotHer]

Corny, faded, dated and more relevant than ever:

QO7VUklDlQw

[Martina]

The prime mortgage market tanked too, folks. There was a bubble. People were encouraged to borrow and refinance. Money was cheap. Every trustworthy source encouraged it. When the bubble burst, responsible folks were put underwater.

[SoNotHer]

The French have a gotten a few things right: cheese, wine, and a nice bloody revolution. They've also endured cycles of largesse and abject poverty. They've seen dynasties rise and fall, and they've said some of the most amazing things about this, namely, that all property is theft and that behind every fortune is a crime. Something to think about.

And then there are the scenarios given to us by writers like Orwell, Bradbury, Burgess and others who envisioned ruling empires like Britain or the US in the full hot mess of post-peak dystopia. Liberty is generally the first casualty. Civility, personal safety and anything like joy are not long behind it.

I posted a link earlier to the bumper sticker artwork that read: Fascism is Capitalism in Decay.

So while we debate who's responsible for what and who's involved and who isn't, and whether or not we want socialism, capitalism or communism, we need to realize, and quickly, that fascism is always the default, and it's ready to assume control in the absence of any other organized and cohesive movement.

Linus is right. It's time we started calling this a depression. And it's also time we started to realize that we may well be on the precipice of gaining or losing everything. Let us hope the unprovoked police brutality in the OWS NYC protest is not a sign of the latter.

[atomiczombie]

1. The Top 1 Percent of Americans Owns 40 Percent of the Nation’s Wealth
2. The Top 1 Percent of Americans Take Home 24 Percent of National Income
3. The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Own Half of the Country’s Stocks, Bonds and Mutual Funds
4. The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Have Only 5 Percent of the Nation’s Personal Debt
5. The Top 1 Percent are Taking In More of the Nation’s Income Than at Any Other Time Since the 1920s

Link:

http://www.alternet.org/economy/152601/5_facts_you_should_know_about_the_wealthiest_one_p ercent_of_americans/

[Cin]

We have learned many variations of the meme that the U.S is a meritocracy and one’s future as well as one’s present situation is a direct result of the choices each individual makes. It has become something of a prayer that the working and middle classes, most especially the white working and middle classes, murmur over and over as they try to keep their heads above water. It’s becoming harder and harder to accept, but these kinds of purposely cultivated barriers are hard to break through. It is a part of our national psyche that the poor are somehow responsible for their plight. It has always been important to believe that. I think it is a defense mechanism that human beings have to keep themselves feeling safe, to ward off the bogeyman so to speak. If you are poor, unemployed, sick, without insurance, disabled or whatever difficult situation you find yourself in then you must, at least in part, be responsible for your own predicament. To believe otherwise is to believe it could happen to you. But as we begin to see it happen to so many this kind of thinking is becoming harder and harder to justify.

Here are some excerpts from this article

http://www.alternet.org/economy/152512/6_ways_the_rich_are_waging_a_class_war_against_the _american_people?page=1

six ways the rich are waging class warfare
1.Registering the Poor to Vote is 'UnAmerican'
2.Unemployment Benefits Have Created a 'Nation of Slackers'
3.You Can't Really Be Poor if You Have a Color TV!
4.Food-Stamps: 'A Fossil That Repeats All the Errors of the War on Poverty'
5.The Main Causes of Child Poverty Are Low Levels of Parental Work and the Absence of Fathers.'
6.Taxing Working People Less Than the Rich Is 'Perverse'

“class war”: habitually vilifying the unfortunate; claiming that their plight is a manifestation of some personal flaw or cultural deficiency. Conservatives wage this form of class warfare virtually every day, consigning millions of people who are down on their luck to some subhuman underclass.

"The belief that there exists a large pool of “undeserving poor” who suck the lifeblood out of the rest of society lies at the heart of the Right's demonstrably false “culture of poverty” narrative. It's a narrative that runs through Ayn Rand's works. It comes to us in bizarre spin that holds up the rich as “wealth producers” and “job creators.”

And it affects our public policies. In his classic book, Why Americans Hate Welfare, Martin Gilens found a striking disconnect: significant majorities of Americans told pollsters that they wanted public spending to fight poverty to be increased at the same time that similar majorities said they were opposed to welfare.

the United States is anything but a true meritocracy. What millions of white working-class Americans understand – intuitively, even if they can't articulate it – is that class still matters. And by erasing the very idea of class, of structural barriers to getting ahead in this economy, they are left with a nagging sense of grievance against those they perceive to be bringing them down: foreign powers, immigrants, people of color and liberals, with their “job-killing” regulations and the like."
End of excerpts from the article.

Apparently grievance against anything and anyone but the rich:seeingstars:

But that is beginning to stop. The blinders are off. People are beginning to see through all the bull shit, deceit and slight of hand designed to keep us from understanding who is really standing on our backs and keeping us down.

[cuddlyfemme]

I'm going to Occupy Columbia on the 21st and can't wait!

[Sachita]

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

Exactly!

I am a home owner and luckily not on a mortgage trap, however in 2008 I had a difficult time and was late on credit cards or other financed items. Instead of working with me they increased my interest to 28%! I'm not kidding!

I know at least a dozen people personally who have walked away from their homes and these are people with good jobs or at least they once had great jobs.

Financial institutions need to be accountable now or people will continue to take action. Protesting is only level one. Many are closing bank accounts and moving to credit unions. I'm using more cash these days. I think its about time

[Sachita]

This may have been posted. If not here it is-

http://15october.net/

On October 15th people from all over the world will take to the streets and squares.

From America to Asia, from Africa to Europe, people are rising up to claim their rights and demand a true democracy. Now it is time for all of us to join in a global non violent protest.

The ruling powers work for the benefit of just a few, ignoring the will of the vast majority and the human and environmental price we all have to pay. This intolerable situation must end.

United in one voice, we will let politicians, and the financial elites they serve, know it is up to us, the people, to decide our future. We are not goods in the hands of politicians and bankers who do not represent us.

On October 15th, we will meet on the streets to initiate the global change we want. We will peacefully demonstrate, talk and organize until we make it happen.

It’s time for us to unite. It’s time for them to listen.

[Julie]

Of course my feelings could be wrong. But I'm not someone who would shoot off my mouth unless I had facts and real life experience , and my experiences have caused me to render the conclusions that my feelings and opinions are based on. I in no way ever think I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm simply stating the truth as I know it,what my experience has been and why my view may differ from yours. You know I love ya Julie. I know I pushed your buttons so I'm going to try to unpush them by explaining what I mean a little better. Because I know when there is a passionate debate people will tend to read into things and tempers flair . So here's a little better explaination. Keep in mind you may not agree with me.

There is a hurricane coming been getting reports 2 weeks solid. Everyone is told to evacuate. But instead of doing the right thing, some guy decides I'm not going to do the right thing, even though I'm taking a risk and I know what could happen, I'm gonna stick it out take my chances. The worst occurs. Now he has had warning after warning, 3 days of mandatory evacuations. Even had sheriffs going door to door in case someone was home bound. He still stayed. Now he is in a bad mess, he is forced to the roof top because the house is completely flooded. He is watching home after home swept away and he knows he screwed up. So he calls 911. Now the police the fireman and paramedics have to risk their lives , in white cap rapids, of rancid water full of virus's , bacteria dead animals you name it , to save this guy. Should the tax payers have to foot the bill for the rescue? No way!!! He should. Am I saying he shouldn't be rescued. Hell no I'm not saying that. Did I say he deserves to die , hell no didn't say that either. What I'm saying is he should have to pay for his poor choice, not us. And if a fireman or policeman dies trying to save him, he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter on top of paying for the cost of the rescue service. It's not fair to have to pay for someone else because they made poor choices. I don't agree with it. If that makes me lack empathy so be it. What I can't for the life of me understand is why people think we should. Why people think no one should have to take responsibilty for their actions boggles my mind. You don't think that is a good definition of stupitidy, staying even though you knew you should leave? I do .That was a poor choice . you make call me judgemental I call it a fact. That was plain old fashion stupid, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Now let me guess what's gong happen. Someone is going to read this post. Get pissed and come up with some crazy scenerio that has nothing to do with what I am talking about then try to accuse me of meaning something I never even came close to thinking . Like this , well JAGG what if a steel mill blows up and 50 houses catch on fire, or what if a train derails and spews toxic liquid into a neighborhood, or a gas line explodes and burns up a nursing home, are you going make those people pay to be rescued too. Lets hope your house never catches on fire you never need to be rescued. It's clear you have never had any thing bad ever happen to you and you don't know what it's like to have your arms and legs cut off and need a paramedic. My 3rd cousin didnt tie his shoes one day and tripped on his lace fell down the steps broke his hip had to call a Paramedic are you saying that's his fault and he has to pay for his bad choice?????? I guess you would just leave him there to die. Because he didn't make the same choice you would have, he is just plain old fashion stupid and deserves to die. I think you're the stupid one. :|

Jagg... Thank YOU for your words.

I am going to address the man not leaving his house during a hurricane. We honestly do not know why people do not heed the warnings when there is a natural disaster coming their way. There are going to be a multitude of reasons as to why people stay. Perhaps the man has a pet, and the pet is elderly and cannot get out. Perhaps he has possessions which mean the world to him. Perhaps is just simply terrified and suffers from Agraphobia. He might also just simply be one of those people who does not believe anything can touch him. I am not so worried about footing the bill, as I am about the lives of the rescue people, who now must put themselves at risk to save him. The other part of this, at least for me. I don't think about what it is going to cost us financially - This is where I have always differed from main stream - I care about how it is going to affect all of us emotionally, with each death we read about.

And Jagg, I have seen people without limbs after buildings have exploded. Though, do to war and terrorism. There was talk of me going to Pakistan/India a few years back -- Both incredibly dangerous places for a woman and for a Jewish Woman - The same came up about Uganda. I am willing to go and take those risks (though it does frighten me). I know what they are - I know how these countries feel about me, and add to the fact that I am a peace worker. Knowing the risks -- I would still like to go. What if I get hurt? Will you take care of me? Or will your mind go to that place, where it might say -- Ahhh... Julie knew the risks - why should we pay for her medical bills or even try and get her out of the country, if she cannot - or who is going to pay my psychiatric treatment if I come back with ptsd. Just using examples - I have no idea what might or could happen, should I be lucky enough to go - If my bosses will let me, they are more afraid for me than I am. Will you take care of me Jagg? Will you fight for my benefits? Remember, I know the risks and I am willing to take them.

Or what about the young woman who was raped hitchhiking? Should we pay for her medical expenses after her brutal attack? Clearly, she knew the risks she was taking, before she stuck her thumb out and climbed into that car.

In life, there are no real experiences - we simply cannot say based on my experience... Because tomorrow your experience might be different and tomorrow something catastrophic might happen, that you simply cannot be objective about. Life is a constant continuum and how beautiful that is. I have seen a lot in my fifty years and I can honestly say... I will not judge or make a decision based on the experiences that I have had. I must always try and remain open minded and clear - try to place myself in another persons situation - if that is even possible. I must always remember first - I am Julie. I am simply a human being with emotions and skin - Tomorrow, I might not be either.

Julie

[Dominique]

I'm going to Occupy Columbia on the 21st and can't wait!


EXCELLENT! Have you planned your outfit? Made your sign?

[CherylNYC]

EXCELLENT! Have you planned your outfit? Made your sign?

Yes, do make a sign. Unfortunately I left directly from work to occupy Wall St., and then left the march for a community policing meeting, so a clever sign wouldn't have been practical. I really missed having a sign!

One of my favourite signs was 'They only call it class warfare when we fight back'.

[Dominique]

Yes, do make a sign.
One of my favourite signs was 'They only call it class warfare when we fight back'. ~SNIP~

I've been calling around all morning trying to rent a single tenor drum, or a set of doubles. Apparently I am not the only person who had this idea. :confused:
Bummer.

I'm not giving up on the drum.

The scheduled march/ peaceful protest for next Saturday has been all over the news. And, to be fair they are showing how the movement is HUGE all across America and they (the news) are giving it good press. Local news has said nothing bad, nor shown anybody being arrested. It's all peaceful.

World news and Nightly news only want to show the bad. So there you have it. It is being accepted largely as good. The President is coming here
this week to sell his Putting America Back to Work program. This is a large Union City who has been feeling corporate america squeezing out the unions. Perfect timing for him and the Occupy Wall Street Campaign to be coming here. People are excited.

Maybe I am naive, but I am not anticipating rioting or outlandish behavior.
Our police, fireman and paramedics unions have been squeezed (we know how dangerous that is) . I'm hoping more details are released about that so we can be seen and heard with our signs when he comes.

I wrote my letters to my senators, republican and democrats, and basically I let them know I was not happy about all of the in fighting, and I voted for them to work for us, not them. And I'd be happy to vote for the next person if they don't start working. How many of you have written letters?

[AtLast]

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.


The numbers of fiscally responsible (and always have been) people that are in this situation that are actually exercising financial prudence with walking out just as you say. I think that they will take the licks of a very poor credit rating over seeing (and feeling the effects of) what began as a solid financial choice fall apart due to unethical and unscrupulous lending practices.

As the mortgage situation began to hit the middle-class (of every color), what was really going on gained clarity. When buying a home, there are many factors that have been "smart thinking" in terms of investment. Everything from paying less per month than renting and having something to show for it as well as more disposable income, income tax deductions for mortgage interest paid that otherwise goes down the drain to just being able to have pets, maybe a garden if that is what you like or space for hobbies, etc. It also was a means to be able to turn equity into retirement funding for many- even at what used to be considered "usual & customary" accumulation of that equity throughout the term of your mortgage (not the criminally inflated rates prior to the bubble bursting). Home ownership is not for everyone, but for many, it was a wise choice.

Being in the situation you describe and watching for the point at which your mortgage goes "upside-down" due to what the entire mortgage/banking/investment industry was doing is just the breaking point for many people. The anger is rising. And it should rise. And we all need to stand together and protest and not distinguish between those that might not have had "perfect" credit rating histories or even cut it a bit too close in trying to own a home. If wages had been increasing at a fair ratio to the
"1%" of the wealthy over the last 3 decade, those people would have been fine and enjoyed the "fruits of their labor" which they deserved like anyone else.

We need to dump the stereotypes of the "sub-prime" mortgagee and take aim at the structures of the real problems that impact us all- shoulder to shoulder. When everyone gets ahead, we all do. One accident or major illness, a child diagnosed with cancer, a parent having a stroke is often the difference for someone going from homeowner one month to foreclosure the next. And that consequence ripples out to us all.

Hell yes, I can see getting to the point of saying the hell with it, I’ll cut my losses and start anew. Eventually, credit scores rise and we can pay down debt. Although, I have to say at the age of 60, I feel that my choices are more limited than someone lets say in their 30’s. They have the time to recoup their losses and start anew.

[JAGG]

Exactly!

I am a home owner and luckily not on a mortgage trap, however in 2008 I had a difficult time and was late on credit cards or other financed items. Instead of working with me they increased my interest to 28%! I'm not kidding!

I know at least a dozen people personally who have walked away from their homes and these are people with good jobs or at least they once had great jobs.

Financial institutions need to be accountable now or people will continue to take action. Protesting is only level one. Many are closing bank accounts and moving to credit unions. I'm using more cash these days. I think its about time
We wouldn't be having the debates about, what is personal responsibility, and what is the responsibility of the Gov. if banks would work with their customers .
I always wonder why banks won't work with people in things like not being able to pay their mortgage. If the banks would be more flexible we wouldn't need to set up gov. programs with tax payers money to pay someones mortgage for them.
I know they are a financial institution in business with the purpose of making money. They lose alot of money when a house goes into foreclosure. You would think they would do everything they could to prevent losing so much money everytime. Yet if you fail to make a house payment 3 months in a row (this maybe only in Oklahoma, each state may have different laws) the banks starts automatic foreclosure proceedures. No other option is considered or offered. As if this is the only way . They lose a boat load of money,and the former owner loses . It would be smarter on their part to offer something like, freezing the loan payment for 6 months, and just extending the life of the loan by 6 months. That would give the person time to get back on their feet, or sell the house or find a cheaper place to live,and rent that house out. It would be alot cheaper for the bank to not have a payment for 6 months than it would be to foreclose. That's just one idea. I could think of a hundred.
Of course some things are mandatory and necessary that the gov. handle, and have programs set up for. I don't want everything to be tossed on the gov. shoulders all the time. I want the people to be the answer . I want smaller gov. less taxes and more money for us in our wallets. Less rules, less people breathing down our backs, watching our every move. The more we look to the gov. the more programs they design, the more taxes they need to run the programs. Exactly what I don't want.
We want the gov. to dictate some sort of heath care that's affordable to everyone. That doesn't fix the problem. The hospitals will still be able to overcharge us, pharmaceutical companies will still rip us off , doctors will still over charge. What we really need is the judicial branch of gov. to call the pharmaceutical companies in and investigate why
they are charging 90 dollars a pill when it only costs them 15 cents to produce the pill. Change the laws on generic drugs . Stop allowing them to charge an astronomical amount for something they produce for pennies.
Call the hospital administrators in investigate why they have been over charging people for 70 years. And the same with doctors.
First we need to hold the people who are responsible for the root of the problems accountable, and square them away, so they are taking personal responsiblity for their actions, then set up whatever needs to be done to bridge any existing gaps in the system.

[Corkey]

:seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstar s::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingst ars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeing stars::seeingstars::seeingstars:

Rather juvenile to the conversation don't you think?

[AtLast]

For the life of me, I don't understand why banks don't do exactly what you are talking about- do whatever it takes to keep people in their homes. They are losing so much more in the long run with foreclosures that, many (not all) of which could be "re-tooled" and the bank could break even. So many of the people in foreclosure situations do whatever it takes to get back on track with a reduced house payment because they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Now, they have to be re-employed, if the main reason they are in this situation is due to job loss, but many people do and will continue to take jobs at less pay in order to save their homes. Eventually, they most likely will either go back to the areas of prior employment or re-train to get ahead in an employment areas that show better promise of a future.

My main thoughts on this actually further than the foreclosure and to the cumulative effects of how seriously the great numbers of foreclosures impact so much more in an already weak economy.

If I had the "magic wand" of forecloserdom, it would be my choice to to put something together for mortgagees that in the end, helps stabilize our economy. In the long run, this stabilization is imperative.

Obviously, I am not an economist! However, there is such a domino-effect when one economic hardship triggers another and when such large numbers of people are having these difficulties at the same time.



We wouldn't be having the debates about, what is personal responsibility, and what is the responsibility of the Gov. if banks would work with their customers .
I always wonder why banks won't work with people in things like not being able to pay their mortgage. If the banks would be more flexible we wouldn't need to set up gov. programs with tax payers money to pay someones mortgage for them.
I know they are a financial institution in business with the purpose of making money. They lose alot of money when a house goes into foreclosure. You would think they would do everything they could to prevent losing so much money everytime. Yet if you fail to make a house payment 3 months in a row (this maybe only in Oklahoma, each state may have different laws) the banks starts automatic foreclosure proceedures. No other option is considered or offered. As if this is the only way . They lose a boat load of money,and the former owner loses . It would be smarter on their part to offer something like, freezing the loan payment for 6 months, and just extending the life of the loan by 6 months. That would give the person time to get back on their feet, or sell the house or find a cheaper place to live,and rent that house out. It would be alot cheaper for the bank to not have a payment for 6 months than it would be to foreclose. That's just one idea. I could think of a hundred.
Of course some things are mandatory and necessary that the gov. handle, and have programs set up for. I don't want everything to be tossed on the gov. shoulders all the time. I want the people to be the answer . I want smaller gov. less taxes and more money for us in our wallets. Less rules, less people breathing down our backs, watching our every move. The more we look to the gov. the more programs they design, the more taxes they need to run the programs. Exactly what I don't want.
We want the gov. to dictate some sort of heath care that's affordable to everyone. That doesn't fix the problem. The hospitals will still be able to overcharge us, pharmaceutical companies will still rip us off , doctors will still over charge. What we really need is the judicial branch of gov. to call the pharmaceutical companies in and investigate why
they are charging 90 dollars a pill when it only costs them 15 cents to produce the pill. Change the laws on generic drugs . Stop allowing them to charge an astronomical amount for something they produce for pennies.
Call the hospital administrators in investigate why they have been over charging people for 70 years. And the same with doctors.
First we need to hold the people who are responsible for the root of the problems accountable, and square them away, so they are taking personal responsiblity for their actions, then set up whatever needs to be done to bridge any existing gaps in the system.

[tapu]

I'm on my little unemployed way today to check out the Occupy Maine protest. Not going to join in necessarily, but I might. Need to scope it out first. And I'm not just going because it's a gloriously sunny Maine Saturday. I want some direct experience.

If there's something to report, I'll report back. Into the fray, the tapu

[Dominique]

:seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstar s::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingst ars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeingstars::seeing stars::seeingstars::seeingstars:

JAGG insists she has empathy, then posts something like this Corkey. I guess Katrina and all of those Elderly folks
stuck on top of their roofs, many of whom died. That was their fault. Poor choice, ya know.........

[AtLast]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/occupy-wall-street-movement-hijacked-newcomers/story?id=14691330

[Mr.Nobody]

n4RjJKxsamQ&ob

[T4Texas]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-07/wall-street-protests-risk-harm-to-nyc-economy-mayor-says.html

II have been thinking about how these deomstrations are not on college campuses but the financial centers and willbe much more disruptive. But, I don't see how the protestors can make their point any other way and finally be heard.

Banking is out of control. You have to fall into a very narrow window anymore to have a good credit score. I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with a banking system that will penalize you or even foreclose on you for paying your mortgage early or making your credit card payments on time and still giving you a bad credit rating. The banks have made a lot of bad investments over the years as shown by the numbers of bailouts. Now they are trying to squeeze their customers in order to recoup some of their losses. Credit is a vicious cycle. I filed bankruptcy in the 1980s and learned a valuable lesson about managing credit. Credit cards lure you in with high credit limits and low payments bringin on a debt you can never get paid. The fact that I could not manage credit caused me to go on a cash basis with everything and it truly simplified my life and probably saved me thousands of dollars in fees. Of course not everyone can do that. If you want a house or other big ticket items you need a credit score and you need a bank.
I believe that government, lobbyists, banking, pharmacuetical companies and insurance companies totally challenge our lives. All of them have their hands in each other's pockets and the ones who usually suffer for all this are the regular folks. All of these things have brought about the suppression of the average citizen. The government lies to us and tells us things are looking up, jobs are on the horizon, when no such thing is happening. They say unemployment is down . They play with the numbers, but fail to tell you that those numbers do not include people who are off the unemployment rolls because they have maxed out, but still have no jobs. These things are much worse than we think and as was previously mentioned, we ARE in a depression/recession, make no mistake about it. We have been for quite some time, but the middle and upper classes fail to acknowledge it because it had not affected their daily lives in such an adverse way. Now its in your backyard and the situation is different. I beleive that until the people of this country stand up and say they are finished with this, shake up their political representatives and DEMAND social and economic change, nothing is going to change and we will continue in the downward spiral that we are apparently already in. We also need to start from the top of the pile. Obama has given us a lot of empty words and a handshake.Remember this is an upcoming election year, and the president will be telling you everything you want to hear. CEOs sit quietly atop their empires, knowing that if the country revolts, they will lose their cushy (and undeserved) salaries. And lets not forget the media. Another subservient to politics. I mean honestly, the media reports on everything, even the last shark that washed up on the beach, but have you seen a lot of media coverage of the wall street protests? Makes me think someone is telling them to keep it low key. Opinions on that? We truly need to see more of the type of WAll Street action and not let it slip away from us. The French did have the right idea.

[Kätzchen]

1. The Top 1 Percent of Americans Owns 40 Percent of the Nation’s Wealth
2. The Top 1 Percent of Americans Take Home 24 Percent of National Income
3. The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Own Half of the Country’s Stocks, Bonds and Mutual Funds
4. The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Have Only 5 Percent of the Nation’s Personal Debt
5. The Top 1 Percent are Taking In More of the Nation’s Income Than at Any Other Time Since the 1920s

Link:

http://www.alternet.org/economy/152601/5_facts_you_should_know_about_the_wealthiest_one_p ercent_of_americans/

Thank you for this AtomicZombie!!!

I like how people often do not internalize the ramification of distribution of wealth as it occurs landlocked in the top 1% of those who earn this type of wealth. And that's just it: They didn't earn it all on their own merit.

I'll give everyone an example of what I am saying, in case it's not clear to others.

Let's take Steve Jobs.

People are deifying this man as if he accorded all his wealth on his own. Yes, he was a vehicle that changed technological use. Yes, his company Pixar produced stellar movies. Did he do that all on his own? No. I have a good friend, from years past (when I practiced hair in the Hawthorne dist of Portland) who drew, animated and provided the logisitical framework for the characters of that movie. Was he compensated for his tremendous talent? No. But Steve Jobs capitalized on it. I understand that many people revere this man for the landmark technology that revolutionized how users now communicate across the digital divide; and it's that particular division, fissure, in society and how people (Steve Jobs, in particular) have capitalized on it.


I know my statement is provocative by nature, but I have never cared for how Steve Jobs capitalized on social need (dare I say, dependency on technology) or failed to treat his collaborative business partners equitably, with what seems to me as an elitist mindset.

~D

[theoddz]

Gotta love Bernie Sanders!!! :thumbsup:

10lrvC-Tekc
and....
FQtSKYg2Oso

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Cin]

If luxury items are flying off the shelves and this isn't the first article I've read that talks about the hugely incredible amounts of money the wealthy are throwing around why do they need more tax cuts? It's like they are not even interested in toning down the spending in the interest of discretion; they prefer to flaunt it in our faces. After all what can we do about it anyway.
The time for allowing people to possess this kind of obscene wealth has passed.


$39,000 For a Backpack? Luxury Items Flying Off the Shelves

October 7, 2011 |

If you wanted to sum up what people mean when they toss around phrases like “class war” and “the 99 percent” and “WTF,” you might put it all down to this: $39,000 backpacks. Sold out.

It’s been four years since the entrepreneurial Olsen sisters, Mary-Kate and Ashley, launched their luxury fashion line, the Row, and three months since they debuted their stylish and exorbitantly priced black crocodile bag. But it was the news this week that at the Paris launch of the handbag line, Ashley Olsen bragged that the backpack “was the first thing that sold off the shelf” that really took the let-them-eat-cake. Olsen added that luxury brands do well in hard times, noting that “During our last economic crisis in the U.S., the only thing that went up was Hermès,” before, in the words of Women’s Wear Daily, “returning to sip Champagne with guests including Michelle Harper and Christian Louboutin.” As a commenter on CNN observed of this news, “This is what’s wrong with America. The income inequality in this country is outrageous, we are well on our way to becoming a 3rd world country.” Or, as another more aptly expressed it, “That’s cray cray.”

Of course, it’s not as if piles of supple ostrich skin are flying off shelves like some end-of-days scene out of the Missoni for Target debacle. For perspective, it should be noted the New York Daily news reported last summer that a whopping two people had pre-ordered the bags. And back then, Barneys fashion director Amanda Brooks told Fashionista.com that “They truly are classic bags – and I think you also might be the only one who has it.” I happen to think that if you’re paying almost 40 G’s for something 7-year-olds usually carry their lunch to school in, it had better be unique. I also think it should come with the deed to a house in the Catskills inside of it.

The rich will always be with us. There will always be big diamond rings and oversize mansions and $10 million weddings and impossibly priced accessories. Times are not equally tough on everybody, and Ashley and Mary-Kate are not the ones responsible for this economic pickle we’re now in.

But it takes a special kind of out-of-touchness to boast, while sipping champagne, of selling out of an item that costs about as much as a year’s tuition at an Ivy League university. To blithely say, as Amanda Brooks has, that “If you were ever going to spend $39,000 on a bag, that’s the bag you should buy,” when the average American annual income is, coincidentally, $39,054.62. If you’re going to spend $39,000, you could also employ a person for a whole year! Wealth does not equal social obligation. And you can spend thousands on your purses and still be a decent, generous person. But these are not times for ostentatious displays of having, when far too many have not. And if you think the bag is so classic, you could always get it in the leather version. It’s only $3,900.

[AtLast]

http://www.racialicious.com/2011/10/03/so-real-it-hurts-notes-on-occupy-wall-street/


..SO REAL IT HURTS: Notes on Occupy Wall StreetBy Guest Contributor On October 3, 2011
Guest Contributor Manissa McCleave Maharawal, originally published on her Facebook page


I first went down to Occupy Wall Street last Sunday, almost a week after it had started. I didn’t go down before because I, like many of my other brown friends, were wary of what we had heard or just intuited that it was mostly a young white male scene. When I asked friends about it they said different things: that it was really white, that it was all people they didn’t know, that they weren’t sure what was going on. But after hearing about the arrests and police brutality on Saturday and after hearing that thousands of people had turned up for their march I decided I needed to see this thing for myself.

So I went down for the first time on Sunday September 25th with my friend Sam. At first we couldn’t even find Occupy Wall Street. We biked over the Brooklyn Bridge around noon on Sunday, dodging the tourists and then the cars on Chambers Street. We ended up at Ground Zero and I felt the deep sense of sadness that that place now gives me: sadness over how, what is now in essence, just a construction site changed the world so much for the worse. A deep sense of sadness for all the tourists taking pictures around this construction site that is now a testament to capitalism, imperialism, torture, oppression but what is also a place where many people died ten years ago.

Sam and I get off our bikes and walk them. We are looking for Liberty Plaza. We are looking for somewhere less alienating. For a moment we feel lost. We walk past the department store Century 21 and laugh about how discount shopping combined with a major tourist site means that at any moment someone will stop short in front of us and we will we bang our bikes against our thighs. A killer combination, that of tourists, discount shopping and the World Trade Center.

The landscape is strange. I notice that. We are in the shadow of half built buildings. They glitter and twist into the sky. But they also seem so naked: rust colored steel poking its way out their tops, their sides, their guts spilling out for all to see.

We get to Liberty Plaza and at first it is almost unassuming. We didn’t entirely know what to do. We wandered around. We made posters and laid them on the ground (our posters read: “We are all Troy Davis” “Whose streets? Our streets!” and “Tired of Racism” “Tired of Capitalism”)

And I didn’t know anyone down there. Not one person. And there were a lot of young white kids. But there weren’t only young white kids. There were older people, there were mothers with kids, and there were a lot more people of color than I expected, something that made me relieved. We sat on the stairs and watched everyone mill around us. There was the normal protest feeling of people moving around in different directions, not sure what to do with themselves, but within this there was also order: a food table, a library, a busy media area. There was order and disorder and organization and confusion, I watched as a man carefully changed each piece of his clothing folding each piece he took off and folding his shirt, his socks, his pants and placing them carefully under a tarp. I used the bathroom at the McDonalds up Broadway and there were two booths of people from the protest carrying out meetings, eating food from Liberty Plaza, sipping water out of water bottles, their laptops out. They seemed obvious yet also just part of the normal financial district hustle and bustle.

But even though at first I didn’t know what to do while I was at Liberty Plaza I stayed there for a few hours. I was generally impressed and energized by what I saw: people seemed to be taking care of each other. There seemed to be a general feeling of solidarity, good ways of communicating with each other, less disorganization than I expected and everyone was very very friendly. The whole thing was bizarre yes, the confused tourists not knowing what was going on, the police officers lining the perimeter, the mixture of young white kids with dredlocks, anarchist punks, mainstream looking college kids, but also the awesome black women who was organizing the food station, the older man who walked around with his peace sign stopping and talking to everyone, a young black man named Chris from New Jersey who told me he had been there all week and he was tired but that he had come not knowing anyone, had made friends and now he didn’t want to leave.

And when I left, walking my bike back through the streets of the financial district, fighting the crowds of tourists and men in suits, I felt something pulling me back to that space. It was that it felt like a space of possibility, a space of radical imagination. And it was energizing to feel like such a space existed.

And so I started telling my friends to go down there and check it out. I started telling people that it was a pretty awesome thing, that just having a space to have these conversations mattered, that it was more diverse than I expected. And I went back.
On Wednesday night I attended my first General Assembly. Seeing 300 people using consensus method was powerful. Knowing that a lot of people there had never been part of a consensus process and were learning about it for the first time was powerful. We consens-ed on using the money that was being donated to the movement for bail for the people who had been arrested. I was impressed that such a large group made a financial decision in a relatively painless way.

After the General Assembly that night there was both a Talent Show (“this is what a talent show looks like!”) on one side of the Plaza and an anti-patriarchy working group meeting (which became the safer-spaces working group) on the other. (In some ways the juxtaposition of both these events happening at once feels emblematic of one of the splits going on down there: talent shows across the square from anti-patriarchy meetings, an announcement for a zombie party right after an announcement about the killing of Troy Davis followed by an announcement that someone had lost their phone. Maybe this is how movements need to maintain themselves, through a recognition that political change is also fundamentally about everyday life and that everyday life needs to encompass all of this: there needs to be a space for a talent show, across from anti-patriarchy meetings, there needs to be a food table and medics, a library, everyone needs to stop for a second and look around for someone’s phone. That within this we will keep centrally talking about Troy Davis and how everyone is affected by a broken, racist, oppressive system. Maybe, maybe this is the way? )

I went to the anti-patriarchy meeting because even though I was impressed by the General Assembly and its process I also noticed that it was mostly white men who were in charge of the committees and making announcements and that I had only seen one women of color get up in front of everyone and talk. A lot was said at the anti-patriarchy meeting about in what ways the space of the occupation was a safe space and also not. Women talked about not feeling comfortable in the drum circle because of men dancing up on them and how to change this, about how to feel safe sleeping out in the open with a lot of men that they didn’t know, about not-assuming gender pronouns and asking people which pronouns they would prefer.

Here is the thing though: I’ve had these conversations before, I’m sure a lot of us in activist spaces have had these conversations before, the ones that we need to keep having about how to make sure everyone feels comfortable, how to not assume gender pronouns and gender roles. But there were plenty of people in this meeting who didn’t know what we were doing when we went around and asked for people’s names and preferred gender pronoun. A lot of people who looked taken aback by this. Who stumbled through it, but also who looked interested when we explained what we were doing. Who listened to the discussion and then joined the conversation about what to do to make sure that Occupy Wall Street felt like a space safe for everyone. Who said that they had similar experiences and were glad that we were talking about it.

This is important because I think this is what Occupy Wall Street is right now: less of a movement and more of a space. It is a space in which people who feel a similar frustration with the world as it is and as it has been, are coming together and thinking about ways to recreate this world. For some people this is the first time they have thought about how the world needs to be recreated. But some of us have been thinking about this for a while now. Does this mean that those of us who have been thinking about it for a while now should discredit this movement? No. It just means that there is a lot of learning going on down there and that there is a lot of teaching to be done.

On Thursday night I showed up at Occupy Wall Street with a bunch of other South Asians coming from a South Asians for Justice meeting. Sonny joked that he should have brought his dhol so we could enter like it was a baarat. When we got there they were passing around and reading a sheet of paper that had the Declaration of the Occupation of Wall Street on it. I had heard the “Declaration of the Occupation” read at the General Assembly the night before but I didn’t realize that it was going to be finalized as THE declaration of the movement right then and there. When I heard it the night before with Sonny we had looked at each other and noted that the line about “being one race, the human race, formally divided by race, class…” was a weird line, one that hit me in the stomach with its naivety and the way it made me feel alienated. But Sonny and I had shrugged it off as the ramblings of one of the many working groups at Occupy Wall Street.

But now we were realizing that this was actually a really important document and that it was going to be sent into the world and read by thousands of people. And that if we let it go into the world written the way it was then it would mean that people like me would shrug this movement off, it would stop people like me and my friends and my community from joining this movement, one that I already felt a part of. So this was urgent. This movement was about to send a document into the world about who and what it was that included a line that erased all power relations and decades of history of oppression. A line that would de-legitimize the movement, this would alienate me and people like me, this would not be able to be something I could get behind. And I was already behind it this movement and somehow I didn’t want to walk away from this. I couldn’t walk away from this.

And that night I was with people who also couldn’t walk away. Our amazing, impromptu, radical South Asian contingency, a contingency which stood out in that crowd for sure, did not back down. We did not back down when we were told the first time that Hena spoke that our concerns could be emailed and didn’t need to be dealt with then, we didn’t back down when we were told that again a second time and we didn’t back down when we were told that to “block” the declaration from going forward was a serious serious thing to do. When we threatened that this might mean leaving the movement, being willing to walk away. I knew it was a serious action to take, we all knew it was a serious action to take, and that is why we did it.

I have never blocked something before actually. And the only reason I was able to do so was because there were 5 of us standing there and because Hena had already put herself out there and started shouting “mic check” until they paid attention. And the only reason that I could in that moment was because I felt so urgently that this was something that needed to be said. There is something intense about speaking in front of hundreds of people, but there is something even more intense about speaking in front of hundreds of people with whom you feel aligned and you are saying something that they do not want to hear. And then it is even more intense when that crowd is repeating everything you say– which is the way the General Assemblies or any announcements at Occupy Wall Street work. But hearing yourself in an echo chamber means that you make sure your words mean something because they are being said back to you as you say them.

And so when we finally got everyone’s attention I carefully said what we felt was the problem: that we wanted a small change in language but that this change represented a larger ethical concern of ours. That to erase a history of oppression in this document was not something that we would be able to let happen. That we knew they had been working on this document for a week, that we appreciated the process and that it was in respect to this process that we wouldn’t be silenced. That we demanded a change in the language. And they accepted our change and we withdrew our block as long as the document was published with our change and they said “find us after and we will go through it” and then it was over and everyone was looking somewhere else. I stepped down from the ledge I was standing on and Sonny looked me in the eye and said “you did good” and I’ve never needed to hear that so much as then.

Which is how after the meeting ended we ended up finding the man who had written the document and telling him that he needed to take out the part about us all being “one race, the human race.” But its “scientifically true” he told us. He thought that maybe we were advocating for there being different races? No we needed to tell him about privilege and racism and oppression and how these things still existed, both in the world and someplace like Occupy Wall Street.

Let me tell you what it feels like to stand in front of a white man and explain privilege to him. It hurts. It makes you tired. Sometimes it makes you want to cry. Sometimes it is exhilarating. Every single time it is hard. Every single time I get angry that I have to do this, that this is my job, that this shouldn’t be my job. Every single time I am proud of myself that I’ve been able to say these things because I used to not be able to and because some days I just don’t want to.

This all has been said by many many strong women of color before me but every time, every single time these levels of power are confronted it I think it needs to be written about, talked about, gone through over and over again.

And this is the thing: that there in that circle, on that street-corner we did a crash course on racism, white privilege, structural racism, oppression. We did a course on history and the declaration of independence and colonialism and slavery. It was hard. It was real. It hurt. But people listened. We had to fight for it. I’m going to say that again: we had to fight for it. But it felt worth it. It felt worth it to sit down on the on a street corner in the Financial District at 11:30 pm on a Thursday night, after working all day long and argue for the changing of the first line of Occupy Wall Street’s official Declaration of the Occupation of New York City. It felt worth it not only because we got the line changed but also because while standing in a circle of 20, mostly white men, and explaining racism in front of them: carefully and slowly spelling out that I as a women of color experience the world way differently than the author of the Declaration, a white man, that this was not about him being personally racist but about relations of power, that he needed to, he urgently needed to listen and believe me about this, this moment felt like a victory for the movement on its own.

And this is the other thing. It was hard, and it was fucked up that we had to fight for it in the way we did but we did fight for it and we won. The line was changed, they listened, we sat down and re-wrote it and it has been published with our re-write. And when we walked away, I felt like something important had just happened, that we had just pushed a movement a little bit closer to the movement I would like to see– one that takes into account historical and current inequalities, oppressions, racisms, relations of power, one that doesn’t just recreate liberal white privilege but confronts it head on. And if I have to fight to make that happen I will. As long as my people are there standing next to me while I do that.

Later that night I biked home over the Brooklyn Bridge and I somehow felt like the world was, just maybe, at least in that moment, mine, as well as everyone dear to me and everyone who needed and wanted more from the world. I somehow felt like maybe the world could be all of ours.

Much love (and rage)

Manissa

[AtLast]

Banking is out of control. You have to fall into a very narrow window anymore to have a good credit score. I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with a banking system that will penalize you or even foreclose on you for paying your mortgage early or making your credit card payments on time and still giving you a bad credit rating. The banks have made a lot of bad investments over the years as shown by the numbers of bailouts. Now they are trying to squeeze their customers in order to recoup some of their losses. Credit is a vicious cycle. I filed bankruptcy in the 1980s and learned a valuable lesson about managing credit. Credit cards lure you in with high credit limits and low payments bringin on a debt you can never get paid. The fact that I could not manage credit caused me to go on a cash basis with everything and it truly simplified my life and probably saved me thousands of dollars in fees. Of course not everyone can do that. If you want a house or other big ticket items you need a credit score and you need a bank.
I believe that government, lobbyists, banking, pharmacuetical companies and insurance companies totally challenge our lives. All of them have their hands in each other's pockets and the ones who usually suffer for all this are the regular folks. All of these things have brought about the suppression of the average citizen. The government lies to us and tells us things are looking up, jobs are on the horizon, when no such thing is happening. They say unemployment is down . They play with the numbers, but fail to tell you that those numbers do not include people who are off the unemployment rolls because they have maxed out, but still have no jobs. These things are much worse than we think and as was previously mentioned, we ARE in a depression/recession, make no mistake about it. We have been for quite some time, but the middle and upper classes fail to acknowledge it because it had not affected their daily lives in such an adverse way. Now its in your backyard and the situation is different. I beleive that until the people of this country stand up and say they are finished with this, shake up their political representatives and DEMAND social and economic change, nothing is going to change and we will continue in the downward spiral that we are apparently already in. We also need to start from the top of the pile. Obama has given us a lot of empty words and a handshake.Remember this is an upcoming election year, and the president will be telling you everything you want to hear. CEOs sit quietly atop their empires, knowing that if the country revolts, they will lose their cushy (and undeserved) salaries. And lets not forget the media. Another subservient to politics. I mean honestly, the media reports on everything, even the last shark that washed up on the beach, but have you seen a lot of media coverage of the wall street protests? Makes me think someone is telling them to keep it low key. Opinions on that? We truly need to see more of the type of WAll Street action and not let it slip away from us. The French did have the right idea.

We are in complete agreement- my comment is about this protest movement going to the "source." Sorry, my post wasn't clear- I was thinking that it could very well get attention in Congress because, unlike most of (not all) the
social protest movement in the 60's & 70's were on college and university campuses.

[Dominique]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/08/occupy-wall-street-protesters_n_1001539.html


"I'm tired of sticking my hand in my pocket and getting only my leg".....OMG ! I loved it.

[SoNotHer]

[QUOTE=Yellow band;433934]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/08/occupy-wall-street-protesters_n_1001539.html


Good stories in this, SB. Many are involved and getting involved and coming to it for different reasons.

[Dominique]

[QUOTE=Yellow band;433934]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/08/occupy-wall-street-protesters_n_1001539.html


Good stories in this, SB. Many are involved and getting involved and coming to it for different reasons.


Yes, there have been several articles posted today talking about how the crowds have changed. I'm anxious to hear from snow and weatherboi.

[JAGG]

JAGG insists she has empathy, then posts something like this Corkey. I guess Katrina and all of those Elderly folks
stuck on top of their roofs, many of whom died. That was their fault. Poor choice, ya know.........

The reason for the stars is because corkey did exactly what I said someone would do. Take what I said and come up with some story that isn't even remotely related to the point I'm trying to make.

[JAGG]

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

Sucks weathrboi. I know they are working on trying to set up some sort of lump sum rebate type thing, and maybe even a new loan for what the fair market value of your home actually is now. Some pretty powerful entities are involed in it too. So there is hope but congress and the senate would have to vote on it, so who knows. I'm sure you already know this, just in case you didn't.....

[Diva]

This past Thursday, I went to the Occupy Austin rally with my "pretty sign". (That's what a young woman called it.)

I didn't stay long.....I had never "protested" in my life and it was an odd sensation for me, but I will go back. I was sad that I had missed the march to the downtown Bank Of America, as my sign says "Bank of America: You have less money today....I just closed my account!" I'm sorry they missed that!

I have never been heckled before, but I was on Thursday ~ well not me individually, but You know what I mean. "GET A JOB!" I heard someone scream from their car. It was like a knife in my heart.

It's a sad day when a laid~off teacher inquires about another teaching job, only to hear from a school district, sorry, we're not hiring any music personnel for next year, don't bother to apply.

I'm one of the fortunate ones. I own my home. But I can't afford health insurance and some months, I have to juggle bills. I have 2 part~time jobs at this point, as well as my art.

All of that to say, I am really not complaining......I know ~ I KNOW! ~ I am one of the fortunate members of the 99%. But there are some months that are scarier than others.

EVERY situation is different. So until someone has walked in my shoes ............. or until **I** have walked in someone ELSE'S shoes........ it's best to do the very best I can and just friggin' keep out of the judgemental business. Compassion is a flower that is so often crushed under someone's foot.

I hope that made sense.

[Corkey]

The reason for the stars is because Corkey did exactly what I said someone would do. Take what I said and come up with some story that isn't even remotely related to the point I'm trying to make.


Had everything to do with your point, you used the analogy of a person and a hurricane, you just forgot that it was reality for many people, which my point proved.

[tapu]

So I talked to individuals today who were part of the 99%, or however they identified themselves, protest. The signs the group held were mainly directed at stripping the corporation of the legal fiction "personhood."

I got a pointer to this documentary:

xa3wyaEe9vE


I haven't watched this yet, but I remember from Linguistics classes that the metaphor "The corporation is a person" is what allows, for example, a corp to make certain contributions to a political candidate or issue, same as a person. Interesting stuff.

[Sachita]

For the life of me, I don't understand why banks don't do exactly what you are talking about- do whatever it takes to keep people in their homes. They are losing so much more in the long run with foreclosures that, many (not all) of which could be "re-tooled" and the bank could break even. So many of the people in foreclosure situations do whatever it takes to get back on track with a reduced house payment because they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Now, they have to be re-employed, if the main reason they are in this situation is due to job loss, but many people do and will continue to take jobs at less pay in order to save their homes. Eventually, they most likely will either go back to the areas of prior employment or re-train to get ahead in an employment areas that show better promise of a future.

My main thoughts on this actually further than the foreclosure and to the cumulative effects of how seriously the great numbers of foreclosures impact so much more in an already weak economy.

If I had the "magic wand" of forecloserdom, it would be my choice to to put something together for mortgagees that in the end, helps stabilize our economy. In the long run, this stabilization is imperative.

Obviously, I am not an economist! However, there is such a domino-effect when one economic hardship triggers another and when such large numbers of people are having these difficulties at the same time.

actually banks have no choice then to restructure mortgages even for people who didnt qualify or make the deadline for Home Loan Modification programs. In the haze of everything my mortgage company who had just acquired my mortgage mine, after 6 months of screwing up my paperwork and deadlines, defaulted me and tried to get away with it. But luckily for me they record ALL conversations and I kept all documentation. To make a very long story short and threats to sue the fuck out of them they took 20K off my principal and restructured my loan at %5 bringing my payment down $$400.00 a month and this new payment included taxes and insurance! I was one of the lucky ones but that could have gotten away with it had I not fought back. Some people don't fight or understand how to go about it.

In some cases its better to walk away and many did,

[Dominique]

SNIP/SNIP
I didn't stay long.....I had never "protested" in my life and it was an odd sensation for me, but I will go back. I was sad that I had missed the march to the downtown Bank Of America, as my sign says "Bank of America: You have less money today....I just closed my account!" I'm sorry they missed that! WAY TO GO DIVA, I HOPE MORE DO THE SAME!

It's a sad day when a laid~off teacher inquires about another teaching job, only to hear from a school district, sorry, we're not hiring any music personnel for next year, don't bother to apply. As my extreme sport type neighbor, heavily tattooed, year round cargo shorts and van shoes, and I have been painting lawn signs about cuts in education. He is very very disturbed about this. And HE will be at Pgh's version of OCCUPY WALL STREET with me. Anyhow, getting to the point. I was not aware that band was eliminated. BAND (?) Parents are keeping marching band alive by selling everything in the world to raise money, they have two students working on Master Degrees from local universities willing to teach for not much money but the costs are astronomical. It's been decades, I realize this, but BAND. That was a wonderful wonderful opportunity for us, in my high school days, and of course, stage band (concert band) is also gone and this will start all over for him and all of the other parents.
I don't know about you other folks, but BAND was where the fun was at all of the
High School events. Cutting band and Music straight across the board. What Next?

I am one of the fortunate members of the 99%. But there are some months that are scarier than others. You've worked Diva, too long, too hard, to be reduced to saying I'm fortunate to be one of the 99%
This is why it's imperative that we be heard. there are other ways to be heard, as have been listed in this thread. Start closing those accounts, write letters and tell the banks Kiss my ass. Start writing letters to the politicians, tell them you will not re elect them, you'll change parties....(eeeewww, that will get thier attention)

EVERY situation is different. So until someone has walked in my shoes ............. or until **I** have walked in someone ELSE'S shoes........ it's best to do the very best I can and just friggin' keep out of the judgemental business. Compassion is a flower that is so often crushed under someone's foot.

I hope that made sense. Loud and clear! Thanks Diva, and thank you for *Trying* with your pretty sign, Occupy Wall Street.

[Dominique]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders


Enjoy!

[UofMfan]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/translator08/WallStreet.jpg

[SoNotHer]

I am actually laughing out loud. Awesome :-)

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/translator08/WallStreet.jpg

[AtLast]

this Supreme Court ruling may very well be the most salient ruling undermining the civil and human rights of our time. Large, public corporations won the keys to control every election in the US with this ruling. Which eventually will lead directly to the take over of this very Court by ultra right wing conservatism in the US.

So I talked to individuals today who were part of the 99%, or however they identified themselves, protest. The signs the group held were mainly directed at stripping the corporation of the legal fiction "personhood."

I got a pointer to this documentary:

xa3wyaEe9vE


I haven't watched this yet, but I remember from Linguistics classes that the metaphor "The corporation is a person" is what allows, for example, a corp to make certain contributions to a political candidate or issue, same as a person. Interesting stuff.

[SoNotHer]

Leave it to RT to put up the best coverage I've seen of the NY protest, the President's take on it, and the very clear message of it:


UFLmDKs4MK4&feature=digest_refresh_sun

[JAGG]

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

Here is a good web-site you can check out.
http://www.makinghomeaffordable.gov/programs/lower-rates/Pages/harp.aspx

[Dominique]

Here is a good web-site you can check out.
http://www.makinghomeaffordable.gov/programs/lower-rates/Pages/harp.aspx

The Making Homes Affordable Act is over. Even after it was given an extension. The rules to qualify were so rigid, only 20% of the people who applied actually qualified. And,
60% of the money made available to help, went unused.

I was trying to find the link. I just read this yesterday. I was quite shocked to read it too. People were calling it the Obama refinance. Basically, lenders were under no obligation to co-operate, so they didn't. More of the same. I'll keep looking for the link

[weatherboi]

Here is a good web-site you can check out.
http://www.makinghomeaffordable.gov/programs/lower-rates/Pages/harp.aspx

my only comment to this plan is it was worthless for most!!!

The point to my post was not that i can't afford it, it is just the opposite.
The housing market has created many negative investments for responsible home owners.

Occupy Jax was successful. Of course there were negative reports about the amount of attendees. One councilman tried to have it moved the day of because it was hosted on in front of city hall. We have a Nor Easter coming through so torrential rain was had.

[UofMfan]

yhrwmJcsfT0

[Okiebug61]

I am enjoying the resurgence of "We the People". I only wish I lived somewhere that was protesting so I could join in.

[JAGG]

The Making Homes Affordable Act is over. Even after it was given an extension. The rules to qualify were so rigid, only 20% of the people who applied actually qualified. And,
60% of the money made available to help, went unused.

I was trying to find the link. I just read this yesterday. I was quite shocked to read it too. People were calling it the Obama refinance. Basically, lenders were under no obligation to co-operate, so they didn't. More of the same. I'll keep looking for the link

Heard about it on a radio commercial. I thought it was a new program of some kind. Didn't know it was old and useless. Wonder why they keep advertising it?

[SoNotHer]

He makes some excellent points. Thank you for posting this.


yhrwmJcsfT0

[Silvy]

I am from the UK and I've never watched the news when reporting about demonstrations of US citizens against banks, hedge fonds, sharks and monsters. Thank you all for your courage and conviction to show us how we globally have to stand together, reaching out for more ethical values and moral consciousness in capitalism and business.

[Dominique]

Heard about it on a radio commercial. I thought it was a new program of some kind. Didn't know it was old and useless. Wonder why they keep advertising it?

Just like you Jagg, I connected to a link that was giving it props, then I hit the bad press. I think due to the lack of co operation by the lending institutions and all of the the red tape involved, it only set people up for more disappointment. I'm hoping they shut it down AS IT WAS, revisit it,
and come back with something better, since MONEY is left. I also read this housing crisis is the worst since the depression. Let's hope they realize a little less restraints will help!

[persiphone]

This guy is awesome. This was an interview meant to make fun of the protestors but he schooled the dude.

TCW-ZIPrBYY


awesome vid

[*Anya*]

This guy is awesome. This was an interview meant to make fun of the protestors but he schooled the dude.

TCW-ZIPrBYY

Wow! Wow! Awesomely articulate man!! Thanks for posting the vid Ebon!

[persiphone]

Leave it to RT to put up the best coverage I've seen of the NY protest, the President's take on it, and the very clear message of it:


UFLmDKs4MK4&feature=digest_refresh_sun


clearly i'm going to have to just stop here for my Occupy news fix :) thanks everyone!

[theoddz]

I love me some Dennis Kucinich. We need a few more good Progressive Independents like this guy and Bernie Sanders in office. :thumbsup:

4IdPyYRnOY0

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Novelafemme]

I love me some Dennis Kucinich. We need a few more good Progressive Independents like this guy and Bernie Sanders in office. :thumbsup:

4IdPyYRnOY0

~Theo~ :bouquet:

If I could triple like this I would!!! The man is amazing. And his wife isn't hard on the eyes either. :)

[Ebon]

N8o3peQq79Q

[AtLast]

I love me some Dennis Kucinich. We need a few more good Progressive Independents like this guy and Bernie Sanders in office. :thumbsup:

4IdPyYRnOY0

~Theo~ :bouquet:

And Whew!= the district redraws in OH did not take him out of office.

[persiphone]

http://news.yahoo.com/anonymous-hackers-group-threat-york-stock-exchange-150513737.html

so realistically, what would happen if hackers wiped out the stock exchange?

[dreadgeek]

I am from the UK and I've never watched the news when reporting about demonstrations of US citizens against banks, hedge fonds, sharks and monsters. Thank you all for your courage and conviction to show us how we globally have to stand together, reaching out for more ethical values and moral consciousness in capitalism and business.

Silvy:

Actually, I think it is we Americans who need to think the rest of you lot for showing US the way. Years ago (during the time of Bush the Younger) I was wondering what it was going to take for Americans to turn out into the streets. After the election of Obama I still watched with, well, envy isn't too strong a word as people poured into the streets in France, Greece, Spain and the UK over attempts to Americanize the social safety net (in other words to make it threadbare) and various 'austerity' programs including hiking tuition at universities. Each news story I wondered what it would take or if we, as a people were so disarmed as political body that no one in elected office even had to lose sleep at the thought of our wrath. I started to fear that so many Americans were either so dispirited or so distracted that there was pretty much nothing that could piss them off enough to make them pour into the streets.

So a hearty thank you to all of you on your side of the Pond and on the Continent for reminding Americans that nations only work if the people do more than sit back and watch reality TV.

Cheers
Aj

[Linus]

Just because I believe in protesting but protesting with correct facts: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/oct/10/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-ceo-worker-pay-ratio-has-obscu/

But in its claim that the U.S. ratio is 475 to 1, the chart conveys a sense of certitude and statistical precision that simply isn't warranted -- and which is contradicted by the facts. The latest number for the U.S. is 185 to 1 in one study and 325 to 1 in another -- and those numbers were not generated by groups that might have an ideological interest in downplaying the gaps between rich and poor. We rate the claim on the U.S. ratio False.

[Linus]

http://news.yahoo.com/anonymous-hackers-group-threat-york-stock-exchange-150513737.html

so realistically, what would happen if hackers wiped out the stock exchange?


It's happened before and they'll likely recover. IIRC, the minute that something is amiss, all trading is stopped.

[Toughy]

If you live in Oakland CA.........today at 4:00pm downtown (12th street BART) there is a OWS protest

[atomiczombie]

By Pat Garofalo, Think Progress
08 October 11

The Occupy Wall Street protests that began in New York City more than three weeks ago have now spread across the country. The choice of Wall Street as the focal point for the protests - as even Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said - makes sense due to the big bank malfeasance that led to the Great Recession.

While the Dodd-Frank financial reform law did a lot to ensure that a repeat of the 2008 financial crisis won't occur - through regulation of derivatives, a new consumer protection agency, and new powers for the government to dismantle failing banks - the biggest banks still have a firm grip on the financial system, even more so than before the 2008 financial crisis. Here are eleven facts that you need to know about the nation's biggest banks:


Bank profits are highest since before the recession ...: According to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., bank profits in the first quarter of this year were "the best for the industry since the $36.8 billion earned in the second quarter of 2007." JP Morgan Chase is currently pulling in record profits.


... even as the banks plan thousands of layoffs: Banks, including Bank of America, Barclays, Goldman Sachs, and Credit Suisse, are planning to lay off tens of thousands of workers.


Banks make nearly one-third of total corporate profits: The financial sector accounts for about 30 percent of total corporate profits, which is actually down from before the financial crisis, when they made closer to 40 percent.


Since 2008, the biggest banks have gotten bigger: Due to the failure of small competitors and mergers facilitated during the 2008 crisis, the nation's biggest banks - including Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, and Wells Fargo - are now bigger than they were pre-recession. Pre-crisis, the four biggest banks held 32 percent of total deposits; now they hold nearly 40 percent.


The four biggest banks issue 50 percent of mortgages and 66 percent of credit cards: Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, Wells Fargo and Citigroup issue one out of every two mortgages and nearly two out of every three credit cards in America.


The 10 biggest banks hold 60 percent of bank assets: In the 1980s, the 10 biggest banks controlled 22 percent of total bank assets. Today, they control 60 percent.


The six biggest banks hold assets equal to 63 percent of the country's GDP: In 1995, the six biggest banks in the country held assets equal to about 17 percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product. Now their assets equal 63 percent of GDP.


The five biggest banks hold 95 percent of derivatives: Nearly the entire market in derivatives - the credit instruments that helped blow up some of the nation's biggest banks as well as mega-insurer AIG - is dominated by just five firms: JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citibank, and Wells Fargo.


Banks cost households nearly $20 trillion in wealth: Almost $20 trillion in wealth was destroyed by the Great Recession, and total family wealth is still down "$12.8 trillion (in 2011 dollars) from June 2007 - its last peak."


Big banks don't lend to small businesses: The New Rules Project notes that the country's 20 biggest banks "devote only 18 percent of their commercial loan portfolios to small business."


Big banks paid 5,000 bonuses of at least $1 million in 2008: According to the New York Attorney General's office, "nine of the financial firms that were among the largest recipients of federal bailout money paid about 5,000 of their traders and bankers bonuses of more than $1 million apiece for 2008."
In the last few decades, regulations on the biggest banks have been systematically eliminated, while those banks engineered more and more ways to both rip off customers and turn ever-more complex trading instruments into ever-higher profits. It makes perfect sense, then, that a movement calling for an economy that works for everyone would center its efforts on an industry that exemplifies the opposite.

Link: http://www.readersupportednews.org/news-section2/320-80/7787-11-facts-about-biggest-banks

[tapu]

My, my. Talk about "with a bullet."


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/10/lawmakers-pick-sides-as-wall-street-protests-mount/

[BBinNYC]

On Saturday, I left Yom Kippur services after we read Isaiah chap 8 which talks about not oppressing workers while observing the fast. It's a reading about Yom Kippur and economic justice. I went down to OWS for a few hours and then returned to services. Here are the pics I took:
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/294467_2079570588890_1233793007_31992925_118467767 7_n.jpghttp://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/294467_2079570588890_1233793007_31992925_118467767 7_n.jpg
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/296080_2079571388910_1233793007_31992928_267241294 _n.jpg
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/300603_2079572708943_1233793007_31992934_967721115 _n.jpg
http://hphotos-iad1.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/297176_2079572908948_1233793007_31992935_615702315 _n.jpg

[SoNotHer]

YvqpyDWvDyE

Martin Luther King, Jr.:

"In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights' and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped." —Speaking on right-to-work laws in 1961

Dwight D. Eisenhower:

"Only a fool would try to deprive working men and working women of their right to join the union of their choice."

Jimmy Carter:

"Every advance in this half-century: Social Security, civil rights, Medicare, aid to education... one after another - came with the support and leadership of American Labor."

Molly Ivins:

"Although it is true that only about 20 percent of American workers are in unions, that 20 percent sets the standards across the board in salaries, benefits and working conditions. If you are making a decent salary in a non-union company, you owe that to the unions. One thing that corporations do not do is give out money out of the goodness of their hearts."

Recall Walker and Stand Up for Wisconsin:

"Screw us, and we multiply."

[Shadowboi2010]

I was glad to read the opening creed on this thread. I'm glad to know what this is all about. I've been out of town for the past week, so I've just been getting the spin the news puts on it.

Some of the opening points I agree with, some I don't. I reckon its like anything else.

Thank you for posting it!

[Cin]

5 Conservative Economic Myths Occupy Wall St. Is Helping Bust

1. Business does everything better than government.

2. Rich people are “job creators.”

3. Government and taxes take money out of the economy.

4. Regulations Kill Jobs

5. “Protectionism” hurts the economy.

Here's the article:

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/152683/5_conservative_economic_myths_occupy_wall_st._is_h elping_bust/?page=entire

[PumaJ]

Dance break during Occupy Portland/OWS (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2619717251626)

[Cin]

I've been wondering what path those with power will take to sabotage OWS. I mean this can't go on unchecked. Unless, as Heart alluded to in an earlier post, the timing of this will be seen as a way to ensure a republican victory in 2012. I suppose plants that challenge the police and cause confrontations will be part of the plan. Escalating the violence perpetrated against the protestors by the police using plants to instigate will work well and will allow mainstream america to shrug it off as the protestors getting what they deserve. Hopefully nothing too drastic will take place, but if it does let's hope they employ exceedingly stupid infiltrators like this assistant editor of the American Spectator who could not keep his mouth shut about his actions and the reasons behind them.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/10/11-3

[SoNotHer]

I've been wondering the same, Miss Tick, and waiting for the "other shoe to drop."

Tapu posted a link to a Fox (horrors!) news report that began with long quotes in response to OWS by Cain and Cantor, which necessarily condemned the movement in snarly words.

But here's the positive take away of this: they're paying attention, and they're nervous. And I am hopeful that transmutes into the kind of change we have needed to work in concert with the President's initiatives.


I've been wondering what path those with power will take to sabotage OWS. I mean this can't go on unchecked. Unless, as Heart alluded to in an earlier post, the timing of this will be seen as a way to ensure a republican victory in 2012. I suppose plants that challenge the police and cause confrontations will be part of the plan. Escalating the violence perpetrated against the protestors by the police using plants to instigate will work well and will allow mainstream america to shrug it off as the protestors getting what they deserve. Hopefully nothing too drastic will take place, but if it does let's hope they employ exceedingly stupid infiltrators like this assistant editor of the American Spectator who could not keep his mouth shut about his actions and the reasons behind them.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/10/11-3

[Cin]

I've been wondering the same, Miss Tick, and waiting for the "other shoe to drop."

Tapu posted a link to a Fox (horrors!) news report that began with long quotes in response to OWS by Cain and Cantor, which necessarily condemned the movement in snarly words.

But here's the positive take away of this: they're paying attention, and they're nervous. And I am hopeful that transmutes into the kind of change we have needed to work in concert with the President's initiatives.

Absolutely. I'm all for positives. And there are many here. And watching our backs is also positive. I'm sure there are things that can be done, especially mentally, to prepare for these kinds of probable attacks during a protest. I'm sure organizers are aware and have anticipated this. No one could believe that the 1% is unprepared.

[Novelafemme]

Dance break during Occupy Portland/OWS (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2619717251626)


This is awesome, PumaJ!! I would totally be out there bustin' a move with them ;)

[Novelafemme]

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/298226_10150410613170712_618375711_10241369_222219 176_n.jpg

[Corkey]

Is this from a protest or is it something else? It appears that they are at the mall, yes I used to live there, and the cops have APC's for SWAT, the pics are not coherent. Could you give some perspective on this?

[Cin]

Is this from a protest or is it something else? It appears that they are at the mall, yes I used to live there, and the cops have APC's for SWAT, the pics are not coherent. Could you give some perspective on this?

I stumbled across this article while reading stuff online. I don't know why Ventura California is using armored vehicles or IF they are or really what is going on. It does say ventura police on the vehicle. Here is the link http://uswgo.com/ventura-ca-police-using-armored-vehicles-in-the-streets.htm

I thought it was interesting, but I don't know the law about armored vehicles and the police or if there is one. Perhaps police departments often use armored vehicles. They certainly used them in Pittsburgh during the G20 summit. I don't remember seeing them before though. But that doesn't mean it isn't a usual thing. It seems scary though. What do police departments need armored vehicles for?

They are at the mall? Is it usual for armed vehicles with Ventura Police on them to be at the mall? Even if there is a protest or whatever. I mean do police departments have armored vehicles?

[Corkey]

I stumbled across this article while reading stuff online. I don't know why Ventura California is using armored vehicles or IF they are or really what is going on. It does say ventura police on the vehicle. Here is the link http://uswgo.com/ventura-ca-police-using-armored-vehicles-in-the-streets.htm

I thought it was interesting, but I don't know the law about armored vehicles and the police or if there is one. Perhaps police departments often use armored vehicles. They certainly used them in Pittsburgh during the G20 summit. I don't remember seeing them before though. But that doesn't mean it isn't a usual thing. It seems scary though. What do police departments need armored vehicles for?

Ok thank you. Yes, police departments do use APC's for SWAT teams, they also show them off at all kinds of events for recruiting police officers. In California most cities that have a large population i.e.: LA, SF, Oakland, San Diego, Ventura, San Bernardino have these vehicles. They are nothing new.

[Cin]

Ok thank you. Yes, police departments do use APC's for SWAT teams, they also show them off at all kinds of events for recruiting police officers. In California most cities that have a large population i.e.: LA, SF, Oakland, San Diego, Ventura, San Bernardino have these vehicles. They are nothing new.

Ah okay just some bullshit propaganda. I'm going to delete it then. Thanks.

[Corkey]

Ah okay just some bullshit propaganda. I'm going to delete it then. Thanks.


LOL your fine no worries.

[Daywalker]

Ok thank you. Yes, police departments do use APC's for SWAT teams, they also show them off at all kinds of events for recruiting police officers. In California most cities that have a large population i.e.: LA, SF, Oakland, San Diego, Ventura, San Bernardino have these vehicles. They are nothing new.

And of course, the Daywalkers' 'hood of South Sacramento.
:koolaid:

Couple months ago,
I snapped this shot of one across the street:

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205997_10150267477113123_530278122_8019745_6081957 _n.jpg
There was a 'Hostage Incident' that garnered the attentions of hella
Media trucks n what have you. Of course that also gathered lots of
local folks out to look-see at all the hooplah.
:gossip:

Naturally Sac SWAT was called in.

:coffee:

:daywalker:

[Corkey]

And of course, the Daywalkers' 'hood of South Sacramento.
:koolaid:

Couple months ago,
I snapped this shot of one across the street:

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205997_10150267477113123_530278122_8019745_6081957 _n.jpg
There was a 'Hostage Incident' that garnered the attentions of hella
Media trucks n what have you. Of course that also gathered lots of
local folks out to look-see at all the hooplah.
:gossip:

Naturally Sac SWAT was called in.

:coffee:

:daywalker:

Yes but yours are cooler :| Look at all those doors!!!

[Dominique]

You're right, we had more than our usual (two) for the G-20 Summit. However, they were more to be seen than anything else. I was on the streets of downtown Pittsburgh
those two days,(working) and it was so exciting. Almost no problems. I wish I could say NO problems...but the few were minute.

We do have two, as I said. One for the City bomb squad and the County also has one.

[UofMfan]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/translator08/Corporate-Greed.jpg

[SoNotHer]

One of the actions some folks have taken in support of OWS is to change out their banks for credit unions. I'd be interested to hear what experiences you've had and if anyone can recommend a good credit union in the Chicagoland and NWI areas.

Thank you, and good night :-)

SNH



http://images.decal-orations.com/graphics/a/am/americas_credit_unions.png

[Corkey]

We have been at our local credit union for a long time, prefer them to banks 1000:1 Personally I will never do business with a bank ever again. Check your local news channel for one in your area, they usually have ads with them.

[Dominique]

[QUOTE=SoNotHer;435903]One of the actions some folks have taken in support of OWS is to change out their banks for credit unions. I'd be interested to hear what experiences you've had and if anyone can recommend a good credit union in the Chicagoland and NWI areas.

Thank you, and good night :-)

SNH

Use your internet to find one in your area. Benefits. Free checking accounts and free debit card useage. Most credit unions are employee owned and operated. That means NO CEO's, CFO's and all that 1% sucking money away from the 99% doesn't exist. Those positions are volunteers comprised of members. MOST credit unions use what they call shared services....For example...my credit union is in Memphis Tn. I have never *met* them in person. But through the wonders of electronic communication and shared banking, that means you can go to most credit unions and they honor the services of each other....anyhow, I set mine up via electronic, verified it via shared services, and that was that. Checking pays interest. Savings interest is more than a bank. CD's are higher than a bank, and loan services are lower than a bank. Again, because only the 99% are employed. It makes better cents (pun intended)

http://images.decal-orations.com/graphics/a/am/americas_credit_unions.png

[AtLast]

One of the actions some folks have taken in support of OWS is to change out their banks for credit unions. I'd be interested to hear what experiences you've had and if anyone can recommend a good credit union in the Chicagoland and NWI areas.

Thank you, and good night :-)

SNH



http://images.decal-orations.com/graphics/a/am/americas_credit_unions.png

Many credit unions are created around types of employment like public school employees, plumbers, firefighters, etc. If you belong to professional organizations, they often have a relationship with a credit union that you may join.

I have an account with a teachers association that I joined many years ago, but after moving from the area I joined it in, I started to use a bank. Now, however, I am closing my bank accounts and putting everything into the credit union.

[AtLast]

So, will the Democratic Party come out in support of these protests? The GOP is certainly standing against them. The rhetoric about all that are protesting are "bums" in a "mob" as well as references for demonstrators to "take a bath." have started. Hermain Cain thinks that everyone is unemployed that are attending these demonstrations which is not true. They are trying to spin this as they did back in the 60's and 70's as being born out of low life people that won't work.