Are butches really a dying breed?

[NitroChrys_Butch]

I know plenty of strong, proud butches. "We" are certainly not dying out. We are not dinosaurs. As long as there are humans on the planet, there will be butches. It isn't a phase...it is human nature. I know many butch/butch, femme/femme and butch/femme couples. "We" are out there and if you haven't found your O/one yet, this person is looking for you, too.

I could put on scrubs and glove up, but it wouldn't make Me a Doctor. Moreso, I could wear a tutu but it SURE won't make Me a ballerina. Clothes are only a small part of the person whatever they may be. As is the label. It is only an outward sign of what is in their hearts, minds and souls. Granted, there are times when I dress a particular way that the clothes reinforce what is there... but it is only a reinforcement of what exists and is firmly in place.

[RockOn]

No but there is definitely a shortage of femmes!!!!!!

[CherylNYC]

No but there is definitely a shortage of femmes!!!!!!

Well, we seem to be short on butches here in NYC. Perhaps we should organise an exchange program.

[RockOn]

I like your plan. :)

[TruTexan]

Shortage of butches? NOPE because I'm still kicking around. LOL
In my tiny redneck town in Texas, just an hour East of Dallas, there's a shortage of just being gay and lesbian. I seem to be the ONLY one, and I"m not kidding. :( no family around here for me, no community, no nothing but straight folks. I wish there was SOME sort of community or even a couple of lesbians here to talk to. LOL I THINK I"M GONNA LOSE MY MIND!!LOL

[Paradox]

Hi Paradox,

This made me wonder: is Toronto perhaps not the mecca of gayville, but only the mecca of a certain subgroup of gayville?

I'm familiar with the idea of Toronto as a gay mecca, although my perception was that it was more of a mecca for gay men. I'm not sure where I got that idea, and it could simply be another case of "women are often ignored in the media."

Could it be that the OS b/f mecca is located elsewhere? I think in the Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia area we still have quite a lot. There are certainly lots of queer people who identify in other ways, and maybe it's because I've lived here for 27 of my 48 years, but I see butches and femmes all the time who are people I don't know and don't recall ever having seen before. Of course, I'm the one identifying them as what I would call "butch" and "femme", and I don't ask them how they self-identify. (Do work pants and a tool belt make a butch? . . . gosh, I hope so.)

I'm not claiming the b/f capitol for our own, but I'm wondering what others think? (I'll need to start thinking of retirement communities fairly soon, and I don't think Scottsdale, Arizona would suit me.)

Yes I would agree that the Toronto LGBT 'scene' is more applicable and tailored towards subgroup (gay men). Not a very strong representation of queer women. No surprise really.
From your reply it brings a thought.
Are we not 'seeing' the b/f because we have a preconceived visual cues of what we believe b/f is?
Maybe they are out there but the image is far more different than before. From your example; Work pants and tool belt was (may still for some) be an automatic definer for a butch. Heels, purse and make up for a femme. Like wearing a uniform you knew what team they played for and what position (in theory). Now perhaps with the uniforms removed our prejudgements are kept at bay. (This sentence can be read in such a different way - :innocent:)

Is this a good thing? In some ways definitely. It's the whole 'don't judge the book by it's cover' sort of thing.
The Flip side? It can make it harder to figure out a person.

So maybe there are more b/f and perhaps more femme that like butches/andro than I have noticed. Have to enhance my scanning skills. :glasses:

[SaltyButch]

Merry Xmas to All !!

Hey SaltyButch.
Your live in Sauga terrority. How did you survive the ice storm?

I will not decline an opportunity to make a new friend - :).

It is very hard to find people who are really, genuinely comfortable 'being' and the community for such a space - particularly b/f is almost none-existent.


Hey Paradox,

I faired not too badly with the storm, I lost power for about 10 hours, the ice is still clinging to the tree's and alot of limbs are down and posing problems.
How did you fair?
I was recently told by a friend who has since moved to the US that there is a b/f community in Toronto which is thriving, I said really where, I'll have to check the website that she told me about.
If you want to chat a bit and perhaps meet up for coffee or such just drop me a line, I would welcome it.

Salty

[imperfect_cupcake]

No they aren't. There is plenty of them around. However, if you are preferable to a specific kind of butch and thus unable to spot any other kind, you may have that idea.
There are far far more than the kind that wear jeans and a tool belt. There are more than just OF or OS US style uniforms of it.
But that would require accepting that those who look like tomboys or "faggits" (the dapper/urban dressed) ones are butches. And no, black eyeliner doesn't make one a soft butch. It might make them goth or rock and roll or glam.


Alternatively I would also suggest there are only seven and the rest is done with mirrors.

[Galahad]

I'm pretty sure it isn't all done with mirrors. I've been seeing different bf couples every few weeks in shops or out walking. I'm living in a small town too. They have all been young, high school to early thirties.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

From your reply it brings a thought.
Are we not 'seeing' the b/f because we have a preconceived visual cues of what we believe b/f is?
Maybe they are out there but the image is far more different than before. From your example; Work pants and tool belt was (may still for some) be an automatic definer for a butch. Heels, purse and make up for a femme. Like wearing a uniform you knew what team they played for and what position (in theory). Now perhaps with the uniforms removed our prejudgements are kept at bay. (This sentence can be read in such a different way - :innocent:)

Is this a good thing? In some ways definitely. It's the whole 'don't judge the book by it's cover' sort of thing.
The Flip side? It can make it harder to figure out a person.

So maybe there are more b/f and perhaps more femme that like butches/andro than I have noticed. Have to enhance my scanning skills. :glasses:

Of course there are more types of butches than just the work pants/tool belt type. That was merely a personal wish on my part.

Paradox, now that you mention the "uniform", I rarely go out in "full drag", even though I id as high femme. There's no mistaking me for butch, as I've often been told. That said, your comment reminded me that I often don't bother to get all femmed up unless it's a special occasion or at least Saturday night. My everyday femme look comes off as more "soccer mom". I notice butches and femmes, but only because I've had 25+ years practice recognizing us in my particular community. If other folks aren't seeing me as femme instead of soccer mom, that's my fault, I suppose, for not making more of an effort to show my queerness all the time.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

No they aren't. There is plenty of them around. However, if you are preferable to a specific kind of butch and thus unable to spot any other kind, you may have that idea.
There are far far more than the kind that wear jeans and a tool belt. There are more than just OF or OS US style uniforms of it.
But that would require accepting that those who look like tomboys or "faggits" (the dapper/urban dressed) ones are butches. And no, black eyeliner doesn't make one a soft butch. It might make them goth or rock and roll or glam.


Alternatively I would also suggest there are only seven and the rest is done with mirrors.

Honeybarbara, a friend of mine has been complaining for 10 years about a lack of butches in Vancouver, BC. I have wondered if she means butches of a certain age group, though. She's pretty savvy about spotting butches with varying styles, in other cities. I'm curious, do you notice that the butches, of all styles, are in a particular age group in your area? Or is that a misperception on my part?

[imperfect_cupcake]

I see oodles of butches all over the place and there is a huge community of queer here. I see them every day. They dress anywhere from tomboy to hippy to queer fashionista to outdoorsy looking les.

She may not be noticing many because like you may look like a soccar mom, they look like they are about to go for a hike and look tomboy androgenous lezzo in their gear. Some of the butches wear make up (and are stone and tops).

I live in the east end of vancouver, but that said there are tons of sporty butches in the burbs. she is probably mistaking them for chapstick/sporty dykes. just like you might get misjudged as a soccar mom.

tell her to get her ass to queer as funk, queer box fit, the butch choir, or one of the leather events. Plus there is the queer film festival, the the queer arts events (always brings them out in droves), season fling queer dances at the wise hall, Man Up (stuffed full of butches)... and... well to list everything I'd have to go into my fb events. If she needs to see them dressed up and in context ;)

if she is talking about over a certain age (45 or so) yeah, they are thin on the ground. cause like everyone else, they usually have a partner/wife. Or they come from a time when it was really bad to have the ID. they still fuck the same and move the same and treat me the same, they just don't ID because they think it's wrong. But a rose by any other name is still one ;)

[GeorgiaMa'am]

@honeybarara - Ah, that must be it, we're in the "over 45 or so" group, just barely. She has mentioned something about everyone already being paired up. I'll give her your list though. Thanks!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm 44 and I date older and younger. I go because the age range at these things is wide. as soon as one is single they go on POF or head out to the events. but that's like most of my friends, even who are straight. eveyone they like is paired up. its not a shortage of butches, its a shortage of single people when you get past a certain age range... at least thats what I find.

[ButchKnight]

I certainly hope not though I do agree connecting can be hard especially depending on were you live I do feel like old school Butchs are a dying breed

[The_Lady_Snow]

As of 2014 so far, I can say they're out there!

[Cid]

I find it very difficult to find stone butches.
Not sure if there are any left in my area. I was with one, but
not anymore. Think she might have been the only stone in
the county.

[kittygrrl]

I've heard time and time again that butches are "dying out," that there are tons more femmes than butches and that that trend will likely continue. I haven't been out long and don't know much about the overall community. Is this true, or a myth that people in femme-heavy areas like to throw around?

Possibly, life is in a constant rate/state of change.

[ConCrtAnge1]

i have went through and read this post. Although I am new here I felt a need to post... I live in So. central Il. And around here it seems there are more Andros then anything or a lot of butch on butch... Leaving a lot of femmes.. I am not a femme on femme kinda girl. I want my true butch. Don't get me wrong I want a true butch but one that enjoys her womyn side in bed :)... A butch that know the true song and dance..

[always2late]

i have went through and read this post. Although I am new here I felt a need to post... I live in So. central Il. And around here it seems there are more Andros then anything or a lot of butch on butch... Leaving a lot of femmes.. I am not a femme on femme kinda girl. I want my true butch. Don't get me wrong I want a true butch but one that enjoys her womyn side in bed :)... A butch that know the true song and dance..

First, welcome to the site! I just have a question. I read your post, and I just wanted to ask for some clarification about what you wrote, specifically "A butch that knows the true song and dance."

[Jess]

i have went through and read this post. Although I am new here I felt a need to post... I live in So. central Il. And around here it seems there are more Andros then anything or a lot of butch on butch... Leaving a lot of femmes.. I am not a femme on femme kinda girl. I want my true butch. Don't get me wrong I want a true butch but one that enjoys her womyn side in bed :)... A butch that know the true song and dance..

Welcome aboard.

Don't get me wrong I want a true butch but one that enjoys her womyn side in bed :)... A butch that know the true song and dance..

I am reading this as you want a butch who is comfortable receiving sexual activity/ pleasure as well as giving her partner pleasure. (Correct me if I am wrong, please) You may be able to meet some butches of this type on the Lesbian Zone threads. There are a couple specifically geared toward butches who share this quality. Good luck with that!

I do feel a need to add, that I was put off a little by your use of the phrase " the true song and dance". There is NO true song and dance. We each have a different drum, a different dance and I am willing to bet that each one is simply divine in their own right. It may have been easier for me to read, if perhaps you had said something like " someone who dances to the same dance I do"... When someone uses absolutes, like "the true", it is really off putting to me. I have no doubt you didn't mean it as a slight or anything, it just struck a hint of discord with me, so I felt a need to mention it.

I do wish you luck in meeting butches who suit your desires and hope you enjoy all of your visits at the planet.

:hangloose:

[lamuymuyfem]

i have went through and read this post. Although I am new here I felt a need to post... I live in So. central Il. And around here it seems there are more Andros then anything or a lot of butch on butch... Leaving a lot of femmes.. I am not a femme on femme kinda girl. I want my true butch. Don't get me wrong I want a true butch but one that enjoys her womyn side in bed :)... A butch that know the true song and dance..

I have to say, when I lived in Iowa, the straight farm women looked pretty butch…….. So looks are sometimes not helpful. BF is a complex dynamic, and it's not easy to find a compatible partner, period.

[ConCrtAnge1]

i have went through and read this post. Although I am new here I felt a need to post... I live in So. central Il. And around here it seems there are more Andros then anything or a lot of butch on butch... Leaving a lot of femmes.. I am not a femme on femme kinda girl. I want my true butch. Don't get me wrong I want a true butch but one that enjoys her womyn side in bed :)... A butch that know the true song and dance..

OK please allow me to clean this post up a bit.. First off the wording of True Butch comes off wrong I understand however having dated womyn who ID as butch around here are no more then Chapstick Lesbians. Sorry to have offended or confused but what I said. "True song and dance" was more meant as they need to be on the same song and dance as myself!! As for having to a butch who is also in tune with her sexuality as a womyn isn't so wrong. I feel as if my wording was way off for that I am sorry. Please forgive... I also know Butch isn't just the clothing or the hair.. I know it goes so much deeper..

[Loren_Q]

OK please allow me to clean this post up a bit.. First off the wording of True Butch comes off wrong I understand however having dated womyn who ID as butch around here are no more then Chapstick Lesbians. Sorry to have offended or confused but what I said. "True song and dance" was more meant as they need to be on the same song and dance as myself!! As for having to a butch who is also in tune with her sexuality as a womyn isn't so wrong. I feel as if my wording was way off for that I am sorry. Please forgive... I also know Butch isn't just the clothing or the hair.. I know it goes so much deeper..

I bolded the parts of this I'm going to address.

It's perfectly fine for you to know what you're attracted to, what calls to you. I think it's great you know what you want.

However you do not get to quantify me or others. By my appearance or size or race, I would likely fall into your "no more than Chapstick Lesbians" model.

But I'm butch because I say I am, not because someone else conferred that upon me.

I bolded that last part because it seems incongruent with the prior statement. I'd like to believe this is true for you.

[C0LLETTE]

Well, I've reread this series of posts several times now and I thought I understood the original post, even with it's slightly ambiguous phrasing. Now that it's been examined, clarified and reclarified, I am confused. Maybe we all just have different ways of expressing ourselves and could use a little breathing room. I honestly saw the original post as a personal statement and not intended to offend anyone.

[DapperButch]

Well, I've reread this series of posts several times now and I thought I understood the original post, even with it's slightly ambiguous phrasing. Now that it's been examined, clarified and reclarified, I am confused. Maybe we all just have different ways of expressing ourselves and could use a little breathing room. I honestly saw the original post as a personal statement and not intended to offend anyone.

I agree. We don't all use the same language and if a person is not a regular B/F message board attender they would not know that certain words or phrasing can be insulting to others, if in their own little butch/femme/queer/lesbian community the terms are not insulting. We all have our own vernacular in our own community.

Yes, to breathing room, especially for those who do not know BFP's vernacular and "trigger points".

Intent. It's what for dinner.

[BullDog]

Welcome to BFP ConCrtAnge1

[imperfect_cupcake]

Welcome to the planet concrtange :)

Just as the type of butch that you like is what you want, it would never do for me. I am not into old school type rules around "the dance" and in fact, I don't even believe in "the dance" because I never felt it in the UK the way it's touted in the US. I liked the freedom of there being no dance steps and no "understood" way of being. Nor do I believe in "energy".

Some butches click with me - and I have been with stone butches, transgender butches, transmasculine, genderqueer, tomboi, boi, butch women, butch as gender, and yeahokimbutchbutiloathetheIDsoletsjustnotgothere.
There is as many ways to be a "true" butch as there is flavours of ice cream in my local 200 flavours of gelato store. There's garlic ice cream, wasabi ice cream, lotusmoonseed cake ice cream, chocolate chili, purple yam, red bean and mango cinnamon. There's also milk free ice cream, made with coconut milk and agave juice. Plus sorbets.

Since coming out of my dating hibernation, I have had offers of dates from all sorts of butch. Some who feel uncomfortable IDing as it even though they are stone and more traditional. Some who are not cock identified yet don't see themselves as women either. Some who see themselves as purely masculine and yet gender less. But prefer female pronouns. Some that dress as dandies (she's a drag king from the UK living across the fiord from me) as a old style punk rock goth with eyeliner and a Mohawk (she's a tattoo artist that does a local circuit to up north and back) a stone butch welder that likes wearing beautiful hand made dress shirts and fashionable Japanese jeans, a Mexican Butch mama who is macha and grows plants in greens houses for a living, and as you might see her a Chapstick triathlete in ironman competitions - she's just coming to understand her butch self, an Irish stone butch woman, and old fashionedstone butch Sir. Also a transmasculine cop.

All of these are true. All of them. They all are true to who they are. Which is outside of the gender norm and have to fight for who they are on a fairly regular basis - less than they used to, granted, but they all still carry the scars of what it used to be like. And having a femme tell them that who they are, as they ID doesn't count is pretty cutting.

I'm just suggesting that instead of passing judgement on their identity, perhaps it might be prudent to say they just aren't your cup of tea, in terms of butch. For me, people who are very, very old school wouldn't suit me. But they still get to be who they say they are. No skin off my nose to let them have their ID and just because having a relationship with them wouldn't suit me, doesn't mean they aren't real butches.

I hope you can understand what I'm banging on about and you haven't slipped into a coma.
Gate keeping around gender and ID doesn't serve us very well. It just causes a lot of insecurities all round. :)

[Martina]

I agree re not pouncing on newbies.

However, I also agree that addressing things like "true butch" or saying people who call themselves butch are not in fact butch, but chapstick lesbians ought to occur.

We all know that as the language of oppression. No one wants to push newbies away, but no one wants to encourage language that harms either.

[Martina]

Well, I've reread this series of posts several times now and I thought I understood the original post, even with it's slightly ambiguous phrasing. Now that it's been examined, clarified and reclarified, I am confused. Maybe we all just have different ways of expressing ourselves and could use a little breathing room. I honestly saw the original post as a personal statement and not intended to offend anyone.

Collette, I am not attacking you or concreteangel, but these are the kinds of excuses people typically use when they have said something that is racist, homophobic, etc. They say it was a personal statement and deny that it was harmful. (Not saying concreteange did say this.)

In fact, saying that there is such a thing as a true butch . . . saying that a self-identified butch is not in fact a butch because she/he is not masculine enough is to make statements full of sexism and homophobia. And it's not OK. It doesn't mean the person who says them isn't entitled to her own preferences re dating. It means she doesn't get to decide what a butch is or who is butch and announce it to an entire community, where there are variety of butches, some of whom may be harmed by such a statement.

IMO, that doesn't mean anyone who says these things should be moderated or be made to feel unwelcome. But it does mean that people should respond. To her credit, Concert Angel was the first to respond to her own post. In any case.. , ,

[DapperButch]

Perhaps butches aren't a dying breed, but it seems as though the "butch nod" is. We don't have many butch folk around here. So, last night, when I saw two in the same mexican restaurant/bar as me (separately), I was disappointed to not get the "butch nod" from either of them. Seems to me butches are giving the "nod" less.

What is up with that? Is it because they are reading me as male? I don't think so. One was a lot younger than me, the other not. They looked right through me. What is up with that?

Are other butches experiencing this? The "butch nod" is like the greatest thing ever. It puts a lift in your step. So sad.

[TruTexan]

Gee I didn't read take offense to anything she said and I'm a butch lesbian.

It makes me sad when this stuff happens to people, and I"m sure this probably ran her off, I"d be very surprised if it didn't.

[TruTexan]

Perhaps butches aren't a dying breed, but it seems as though the "butch nod" is. We don't have many butch folk around here. So, last night, when I saw two in the same mexican restaurant/bar as me (separately), I was disappointed to not get the "butch nod" from either of them. Seems to me butches are giving the "nod" less.

What is up with that? Is it because they are reading me as male? I don't think so. One was a lot younger than me, the other not. They looked right through me. What is up with that?

Are other butches experiencing this? The "butch nod" is like the greatest thing ever. It puts a lift in your step. So sad.

Dapper, I always give the other butches a nod, it's my own way of letting them know I see them. I don't always get a response though.I even give the butch a nod when I see hy or she is with a beautiful date or partner. That's my way of acknowledging them as a couple as well. I thought it was just a Texan thang bro. LOL

[Jess]

Gee I didn't read take offense to anything she said and I'm a butch lesbian.

It makes me sad when this stuff happens to people, and I"m sure this probably ran her off, I"d be very surprised if it didn't.

One of the beautiful and sometimes painfully eye opening aspects of this website that I have found and personally experienced, is the encouragement from its members and ownership to help point out when a member is using language or makes statements that can be read or felt as "othering" or demeaning or creates a sense of lesser than.

This is what I did. I addressed her directly and from "my me place" and without condemning her, I simply explained how her choice of phrase made ME feel. I further added that she may find the type of butch that she is looking for in threads in the Lesbian Zone, which if I am not mistaken, you TruTexan should find agreeable, since you actually started one of the threads I had in mind when making the suggestion. I was sincerely trying to help her find what she appears to be looking for.

Just as she is not responsible for my feelings, only for her choice of words, I am not responsible for her feelings to my response, only how I present my feelings and thoughts to her.

Your attempt to guilt or shame anyone (myself in particular) for how ConCrtAngel reacts is frankly an unnecessary and shit stirring gesture and very manipulative, whether intentional or not.

I do not for one second believe that ConCrtAngel was attempting to deliberately slight anyone or their ID. I am also entitled to express in a positive manner how it made me feel when presented as it was.

[C0LLETTE]

Is it possible that the question "Are butches really a dying breed" and its use of the term "breed" is itself problematic in that it implies some common essential characteristic? And that, in turn, might lead people to respond in particular ways.

Is the question asking whether fewer people are identifying as "butch" or whether there are now fewer people with certain identifiable characteristics around? Or maybe it is asking something altogether different.

I am curious how others might interpret the question. If someone has already posted on this point and I missed it, I apologise in advance :flowers:

[imperfect_cupcake]

I've never seen the butch nod. Ever. But then I'm mostly where people keep themselves to themselves in certain ways. I think I've been given the dyke recognition nod twice in my life. Sucks shit not to get it, but hey ho.

And I've had my own asshole handed to me on a platter for things I've said. I don't think anyone was rude, and I stated a pet peeve of mine around the usage of true butch in a pretty diplomatic way tru Texan. I'm pretty sure anyone with half a clit would not be so meek as to have been chased off by a debate. No insults were made, no firestorms, no bare ass paddling. Frankly if people can't deal with a debate that keeps to polite interaction (polite. Not swaddled kid gloves) then perhaps people shouldn't be partaking Iin a discussion thread and stick to fun, fluff and games.

We aren't made of glass.

[DapperButch]

Is it possible that the question "Are butches really a dying breed" and its use of the term "breed" is itself problematic in that it implies some common essential characteristic? And that, in turn, might lead people to respond in particular ways.

Is the question asking whether fewer people are identifying as "butch" or whether there are now fewer people with certain identifiable characteristics around? Or maybe it is asking something altogether different.

I am curious how others might interpret the question. If someone has already posted on this point and I missed it, I apologise in advance :flowers:

This is an interesting thought. Perhaps you weren't suggesting this exactly, but I can see how when one read the title of the thread that they may read "Butch breed" to mean "true butch".

In an American Kennel Club dog competition, for example, there is a descriptor used to compliment a dog. They will say the dog is "true to breed". This means that the dog fits the identifying characteristics defined by the breed (based on AKC standards). So, by extension, one could see the thread title as speaking to "true butches".

I have no idea if anyone read the title this way (and it doesn't seem to be that way to me based on the posts), but I see what you are saying.

For me, I saw the title as referring to those individuals who identify as butch, full stop.

One thing that I really like about this site is that the accepted definition of gender identities is who the person says they are. I wouldn't be a part of a site where others defined who is and who is not butch or femme.

[CherylNYC]

I've never seen the butch nod. Ever. But then I'm mostly where people keep themselves to themselves in certain ways. I think I've been given the dyke recognition nod twice in my life. Sucks shit not to get it, but hey ho….

.

I have seen the butch nod, and it always makes me happy. I get less and less dyke recognition as the years go by, so I love to see that "Yeah, we're cool. We know who we are and we'll acknowledge it in that special too-cool-for-school butch way" nod amongst butches.

[*Anya*]

I have seen the butch nod, and it always makes me happy. I get less and less dyke recognition as the years go by, so I love to see that "Yeah, we're cool. We know who we are and we'll acknowledge it in that special too-cool-for-school butch way" nod amongst butches.

I agree Cheryl and am glad to read your post.

My girlfriend gets and reciprocates (or initiates) the nod frequently.

She does not even consciously connect the nod with either her butchness or that of others until I smile with delight.

As an invisible femme, I get the recognition by association and it does feel good.

It helps me to feel a part of our community.

[imperfect_cupcake]

recognition does feel good, absolutely. I got heaps of it in London. More than I ever have in my life. just not in a solidarity nod on the street. You don't nod to strangers on the street. that would be inviting them to talk to you and that's considered dangerous to do. And then you'd also have to think of something to say if the worst happened and they SPOKE TO YOU. lol.
Thats why people are very quiet in queues there.

Anyway, I am more than sure it exists. especially in places where being gay is repressed and considered wrong. I am putting forward for consideration that as youth may be growing up with much higher acceptance for who they are, they no longer feel the need to nod at strangers who may or may not be like them. The more acceptance you have, the less community there is. Unless you make a sub-sub-group for interest sake. Like a book club for academic genderqueers who like edwardian ghost tales.

Here there is boxing for genderqueers and yoga and a cafe and a gallery and... quite a few other things. there's even a two million dollar fund given by government towards a queer (as in genderqueer) community centre. Many of whom I personally would have called butch are now calling themselves genderqueer and transmasculine rather than butch and aligning themselves with the queer culture rather than butch-femme or lesbian. But that's local to me (and seemingly what was also going on in London) I don't know what's different about crossing the boarder, but I know when I speak to people in seattle, it suddenly becomes a very different type of potato.

[ProfPacker]

I do see the same phenomena in youth who are (or already have) constructed and co-constructed gender, gender queer and other identities that are "akin" to their own cultural constructs but like honey Barbara said, it is different in different locales. In my host community (which is considered one of the more progressive in the country)... them youth seem to have less cultural constrictions as coming out on the lbgtq continuum and there are more than a few trans youth and as both my kids says one in middle and one out in the world) it is just is.

However, I teach on Staten Island, a much more conservative community and I see a different construct. Even standing before classes as an out instructor I still have students writing in their self reflections ttheir struggles. Do not know of one out trans youth in the 200 or so kids or adults I have taught at this school. So it very even within close in proximity locals close to NYC

[ConCrtAnge1]

i am so very sorry to have used any offensive labeling.. I am in noway or in noway was I trying to offend, hurt, stereo type and or come off as "racist or homophobic." I will use extreme caution before posting next time.
I do want to thanks those for the welcomes and to those who were there to address the flaws in my post. Again I apologize... :jester: Happy Mardi Gras in St Louis

[Jess]

i am so very sorry to have used any offensive labeling.. I am in noway or in noway was I trying to offend, hurt, stereo type and or come off as "racist or homophobic." I will use extreme caution before posting next time.
I do want to thanks those for the welcomes and to those who were there to address the flaws in my post. Again I apologize... :jester: Happy Mardi Gras in St Louis

Fat Tuesday coming up! ENJOY!!

I knew you meant no harm :) Thank you for jumping back in here! And seriously, check out the threads in The Lesbian Zone... there are lots of butches around who dance the same way you do lady!

Mahalo! Good Luck!

:hangloose:

[NitroChrys_Butch]

For me, I didn't claim the identity of Butch until I was 40 years old and that's mostly because of the idea that I didn't want to be labeled, and therefore, stereotyped. It wasn't until I attended Butch Voices in 2010 where I learned about some of our history and finally felt like there are others out there whom I could relate to that I proudly embraced the Butch identity.

Where I am in the US (the Pacific Northwest), it seems as thought the younger generation would rather define themselves as Genderqueer these days. I wonder, though, if they knew more about our history whether they would feel the same as I and claim that identity as part of themselves.

Growing up, I didn't have any Butch role models so finding them later in life helped me find that part of me. Does that make sense?

So, what I'm trying to get at is, perhaps there are Butches out there who just haven't come to yet claim their identity. At least that's what I'd like to believe rather then the think about us dying away.

I proudly embrace the Butch identify. I have had the influence of a Butch Mentor who has taken the time to explain the history. It should never be forgotten. And, I agree that younger butches don't know the history because they don't want to or they don't realize its importance.

I think it is human nature to stereotype someone and put them in a box with a neat little label. While some might find comfort in that label, for MOST it is limiting. Whatever works. Sometimes, I think there is too much protest about a label. Wear it. Twist it. Flaunt it. Make it your OWN. OWN it ... create the label around yourself.

I don't believe it for a moment that butches are dying out. We are not dinosaurs. Perhaps, people's perceptions are changing and evolving. People evolve. We don't die out. We are adaptable and it may be all that label twisting that is muddying the waters a bit.

I am here. I am proud of the history. I ain't goin' anywhere and neither are My brothers.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Paradox, I couldn't agree with you more, I am in Mississauga and struggle with finding a community that embraces the butch/femme dynamic let alone Old School in Toronto or the GTA in general. If you are interested in making a new friend I would welcome the opportunity.

As to "butch" a dying breed, I think the rigid definition perhaps is fading out, however, in this day and age there is a new label almost everyday to try and include everyone within our community. I'm not one for labels, but within the b/f community it's a necessity if only to wean out potential partners.

I've been known for years as a "soft butch", because I wasn't clad in the clothes deemed to be what "hard butch"....I prefer to be me, I don't wear heels, makeup or dresses, but on occassion wear silk shirts does that make me less butch. I don't think so, it makes me comfortable with me and who I am, and I'm pretty sure a certain someone has no question that I'm butch.

We need to stop letting people define "us", and embrace and be confident with who we think we are, whether it be soft butch, female Id'd, male id'd, cock id'd, stone, andro, Old School or whatever we choose. The point is "we" are Butch and we bring something different and definitive to the table.

I agree that maybe some of the rigidity is softening around the edges but for Me being younger, the "old school" is comforting. I like structure. I like that rigidness. It is a foundation to take what is there and build on it. Take the model and cast it anew... if you will.

ANYONE who tells someone else they are not "enough" of something needs to take a step (or 5) back and rethink that statement. I know as humans we judge. It is what we "do" .. but we are not judge and jury over what anyone else "is" or "does".

Everyone brings their own style to a "label". Like I said before. TWIST the label until it fits. *G

I do some things that some might consider a little feminine... I am careful with My grooming and My choice of clothes. Every butch I know is the same way. Are we cookie-cutter models. No. It is a matter of pride. Some days I am a slouch but I don't go out in public like that. I wear pink. Sometimes silk. AND, I wear it well.

Call me "less than". Go on. Your opinion of Me is not My business.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Perhaps butches aren't a dying breed, but it seems as though the "butch nod" is. We don't have many butch folk around here. So, last night, when I saw two in the same mexican restaurant/bar as me (separately), I was disappointed to not get the "butch nod" from either of them. Seems to me butches are giving the "nod" less.

What is up with that? Is it because they are reading me as male? I don't think so. One was a lot younger than me, the other not. They looked right through me. What is up with that?

Are other butches experiencing this? The "butch nod" is like the greatest thing ever. It puts a lift in your step. So sad.

I get the "nod" often. It is not a dying thing here. Not sure why it may be elsewhere.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

i am so very sorry to have used any offensive labeling.. I am in noway or in noway was I trying to offend, hurt, stereo type and or come off as "racist or homophobic." I will use extreme caution before posting next time.
I do want to thanks those for the welcomes and to those who were there to address the flaws in my post. Again I apologize... :jester: Happy Mardi Gras in St Louis

WELCOME! I read your opening statements twice and I was not offended. It takes time to feel your way around and know that some terms upset folks. They are triggers. Don't let it throw you. Stick around. You will get the hang of it. *W

[Kobi]

One of the beautiful and sometimes painfully eye opening aspects of this website that I have found and personally experienced, is the encouragement from its members and ownership to help point out when a member is using language or makes statements that can be read or felt as "othering" or demeaning or creates a sense of lesser than.




I knew you meant no harm :) Thank you for jumping back in here! And seriously, check out the threads in The Lesbian Zone... there are lots of butches around who dance the same way you do lady!



Jess, as a lesbian butch, I found your responses to this new persons post to be very "othering".

She is coming from her "me" space just as you are coming from yours. This community is about embracing diversity. A different "me" space is diversity in action. People should not feel compelled to apologize for their "me" space.

To repeatedly direct her to the lesbian threads is othering. Lesbian butches post in this thread as well. That is just not cool.




I am here. I am proud of the history. I ain't goin' anywhere and neither are My brothers.

WELCOME! I read your opening statements twice and I was not offended. It takes time to feel your way around and know that some terms upset folks. They are triggers. Don't let it throw you. Stick around. You will get the hang of it. *W


Chris, not all butches are your "brothers". Some of the female butches who embrace their femaleness feel both othered and negated by the band of brothers mentality.

Moral of the story, before we go looking for fault in how others post, we should look at what we ourselves post and the messages they send - intentionally or unintentionally.

[Jess]

Jess, as a lesbian butch, I found your responses to this new persons post to be very "othering".

She is coming from her "me" space just as you are coming from yours. This community is about embracing diversity. A different "me" space is diversity in action. People should not feel compelled to apologize for their "me" space.

To repeatedly direct her to the lesbian threads is othering. Lesbian butches post in this thread as well. That is just not cool.




Moral of the story, before we go looking for fault in how others post, we should look at what we ourselves post and the messages they send - intentionally or unintentionally.

Kobi,

I am not going to bother with playing tete a tete with you regarding MY posts or those of ConCrtAngel. If you felt othered then that is how you felt. I won't apologize because I did not cause those feelings. I am not responsible for your feelings.

I never condemned or berated her and I don't "look for fault" because frankly I don't have the energy to do that. I simply did what has been done for me on this website over the years and trust me, I was far more kind than the "schooling" I received.

As for referring her to the Lesbian Zone, I do helpful things quite a lot. Pointing out to a newcomer that there may be threads in a particular spot on this site that may help her with the issue they have (based upon her words while coming from her "me place") is one of those ways in which I try to help.

In short, I am feeling pretty damned ok with the interaction that ConCrtAngel and I had. It feels resolved. It feels DONE. It feels kind of warm and squishy even to have been able to express my feelings in a way that clearly did NOT engage her personhood, merely a choice of words and to even be able to be helpful. I am actually digging that and really happy she came back and genuinely seemed to be very ok with how it went down.


Have a good one.

:cigar2:

[Kobi]

Jess, as a lesbian butch, I found your responses to this new persons post to be very "othering".

She is coming from her "me" space just as you are coming from yours. This community is about embracing diversity. A different "me" space is diversity in action. People should not feel compelled to apologize for their "me" space.

To repeatedly direct her to the lesbian threads is othering. Lesbian butches post in this thread as well. That is just not cool.




Moral of the story, before we go looking for fault in how others post, we should look at what we ourselves post and the messages they send - intentionally or unintentionally.

Kobi,

I am not going to bother with playing tete a tete with you regarding MY posts or those of ConCrtAngel. If you felt othered then that is how you felt. I won't apologize because I did not cause those feelings. I am not responsible for your feelings.

I never condemned or berated her and I don't "look for fault" because frankly I don't have the energy to do that. I simply did what has been done for me on this website over the years and trust me, I was far more kind than the "schooling" I received.

As for referring her to the Lesbian Zone, I do helpful things quite a lot. Pointing out to a newcomer that there may be threads in a particular spot on this site that may help her with the issue they have (based upon her words while coming from her "me place") is one of those ways in which I try to help.

In short, I am feeling pretty damned ok with the interaction that ConCrtAngel and I had. It feels resolved. It feels DONE. It feels kind of warm and squishy even to have been able to express my feelings in a way that clearly did NOT engage her personhood, merely a choice of words and to even be able to be helpful. I am actually digging that and really happy she came back and genuinely seemed to be very ok with how it went down.


Have a good one.

:cigar2:


Communication is a funny thing. We use words in certain ways to send certain messages. Those messages can be loving, playful, used to reinforce expectations, to express anger, hatred, opinions etc.

The words we use, the messages we send are our responsibility. Our words and the messages they convey can have a profound impact on other people.

We are not always aware of the message we are sending. We think we are sending one message until we receive feedback to the contrary. How we deal with that feedback can be very helpful to us in becoming better communicators, to grow in our relationship to other people in a positive way.

Or, we can absolve ourselves of the responsibility of the impact of our words.

The choice is ours.

[Gentle Tiger]

This is nudge to stay on the positive track. Good discussions are happening in the thread. Please keep it that way.

Kobi and Jess - you've made your points. Now let it go.

Thanks Malcolm (Moderator)

[okieblu]

Hello

The history fiend in me wants to point out, that in the US at least, 'butch' was a blue collar, working class lesbian. Alot also refered to themselves as dykes. It's not a term you would ever have heard on a college campus, at least not an individual calling themselves such. Being called a butch was an insult-as it still is in some circles.

As for me, I'm blue collar and call myself a queer butch dyke. :)

I have no problem with the younger generations refering to themselves in other ways. Everyone should have to right to label-or NOT label-as their heart needs. I'm certainly not going to tell them otherwise.

No, I dont think 'butch' is a dying group.

Having said all that, I DO have a problem with college/universities lgbtq/queer/gender/womens studies programs who dont teach any damned thing about where we came from, who all those groups and activists are/were and all the SHIT some had to wade through to just survive. THAT seriously pisses me off.

[okieblu]

I used to give a nod of recognition to lgbtq folks when I saw them around town, but then someone who knew me from meetings told me not too, as she didn't want other people seeing an "Obvious" dyke like myself acknowledging her. Gave people ideas. So now, it's always a debate with myself whether I should or not. Especially after getting a few horrified, offended looks from younger-as in college age-people. sigh...

I'm always over-joyed to acknowledge a butch nod though. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, lol.

[bokster]

It's good to know we're still still around.

From where I currently live and work (Philippines), butches have gotten more visible in the corporate world and other professional arenas, with few/some/lots of gray hair, and younger butches (the whole range of feminine/masculine-of-center) still in high school or uni. This wasn't always the case even as recent as 10-15 years ago. A few lesbians that I've met through the years have been terrified of being found out about who they want to love, lest they get booted out of their jobs (the academe, medical field, banking industry, etc). I found it insulting that butches were seen fit only to work on menial jobs. I'm happy to say that things ARE better now, but of course, it could still be better.

I know that where I am right now, the LGBTQ is still a long way off in being accorded Equal Rights in this country. But I heave a big sigh of relief and enjoy the feeling of triumph each time our lives are put in a positive light.

I do get the "nod" occasionally, from butches my age (40+) and because of its rarity, I get thrown off/surprised, then I nod back. Maybe I've conditioned myself to avoid eye contact with other butches based on numerous experiences in the last couple of years of getting a "back off from my girlfriend" stare in clubs. That's what I DON'T GET. The protective/aggressive stance of the younger butches around their partners, as if a femme cannot stand for herself.

Anyway, that's my two-cents here. Now I'm gonna go hang out at the femme zone - lots of interesting stuff there! :)

[Tuff Stuff]

nope i became butch after too many cis males came after me

now they all leave me alone :)

I still own my butch card... and sis(cis)men are still chasing me. Its no mystery that I kinda fall for the ones that have a womanly quality about them, shrugs.Good thread,interesting to read other peoples thoughts on what a butch is suppose to look or act like.Someone posted that we are like ice-cream flavors..genius :)
If that's true(I mean it makes sense )then i'm black liquorice.

:nothingtoadd:

[girl_dee]

i sure hope not because some of us invisible femmes surely like to be on the arm of our butches!

[Deborah*]

I hope not. They're the only lesbians I've ever been attracted to.

Deborah