Are butches really a dying breed?

[dancer611]

I've heard time and time again that butches are "dying out," that there are tons more femmes than butches and that that trend will likely continue. I haven't been out long and don't know much about the overall community. Is this true, or a myth that people in femme-heavy areas like to throw around?

[MrSunshine]

Funny that, I feel the same way about femmes. I think they must be all out of our flavor.

[~ocean]

LOL mr. sumshine ... I love that flavor !!

[musicman]

I don't know about any other butches but I do know this butch is very much here and alive. I'm not going anywhere.

[Just_G]

I do believe that is myth...and I think it's a geographical thing. I have said for years that there are really no femmes where I live. Plenty of butches. Perhaps we need a resurging of the femmes in my town!! I sure wouldn't mind! :winky:

I think people say that because they want a certain type of butch or femme and when they can't find one they say there are none left. So not true.

[SelfMadeMan]

Emphatic NO!!! Butches are NOT a dying breed! I would argue that one of the reasons this myth is perpetuating is from a small, but persistent, group of radical feminist lesbians who are bent on somehow proving that the Trans community is recruiting Butches and that Butches are getting the message from Transmen and Transgender Butches, that they are "too Butch" - not possible - and that they should transition, AND that these Butches are following along like sheep to a slaughter. NOT TRUE. I'm not saying that there aren't Butches pressured to transition - I know it does happen - I have had a couple of friends tell me about other people pressuring them to label themselves TG or to consider transition. But I don't think that this is happening on the levels that some radfems would have us believe, and I don't think most Butches, even if pressured, are going to step off into something so major just because someone else tells them to. Not all Transmen even identified as Butch prior to transition - and Butch is NOT a precursor to transition! I think we have a huge population of wonderful, strong, PROUD Butches. I think one explanation is that perhaps there's been some relocation due to the economy, perhaps more concentrations in larger cities, and less in rural areas. But I don't think you have to look too far. I have some amazing Butch friends and I love them dearly - and I think they are awesome, brave people!
BUTCH does not = TRANS! Butch is an identity all it's own, and it isn't going anywhere!

[Cin]

I don’t think butches are a dying breed. I don’t believe people can chose their sex or their gender. I think it is a part of who we are. And if that is true then butch can’t ever die. There will always be some people born with that gender identity. There are not just two or three genders just like there aren’t just two or three sexes. I think there are many different gender and sexual nuances and I think we will find them mixed and matched throughout the spectrum. By that I mean we can find different sexes matched up with different genders, like for example a transwoman who identifies as a butch or a transman who identifies as a femme, vice versa, or female identified butches and masculine identified butches, or anyone of a dozen other variations on sex and gender.

I don’t think something like that dies out. That’s like saying blues eyes are fading out. I don’t think it’s possible. It’s not a fad it's a recessive gene and anyone carrying one will present with blue eyes so it would be very difficult without aggressive purposeful action to wipe out blue eyes. I think the same could be said for butch. Well, not exactly the same, cause who knows if there is a gene for it, but it is not a fad either, it's a gender identity and while one can chose a gender presentation (like when I purposely femme it up as a butch so I can look like I’m in drag) I don’t think we actually get to choose our genders. You are what you are. So in that way I don’t see butch ever dying out.

[princessbelle]

All i can say is what a sad, boring, lonely existence it would be for some of us if there were no more butches.

Sounds like a horror movie to me.

It is for sure a planet i would not want to live on.

[Apocalipstic]

Boy, I sure hope not! :praying:

[Princess]

A sad sad day indeed! I think they are definately not dying out. I do think people need to remember that what some people once considered butch, has really branched out. There are several different categories, you could be boi, stud, andro...all while still being butch. So i think more of...evolving instead of dying out. Does that make sense to anyone? Because it made sense in my head! lol

[starryeyes]

I live in So Cal, where there are Butches O' Plenty, but what I notice is that the Butch-Femme dynamic is pretty scarce.

[Scorp]

Perfectly said G...

Ladi & I have said that over and over. I (nor she) has ever seen a butch-fem couple out where we live and wish we had "more" of a community in that sense.

However, there seems to be a good amount of butches here. Maybe we just "don't know" if the females are fem or not. Meaning, it's very hard to detect or that just "may be" in general. Or am I just too oblivated to notice??? I guess that would be a whole other topic. I don't know.

That's why this website (and especially the yearly Reunion(s)) not only for me, but especially for Ladi is so very important. There are women (fems) there just like "herself" which she automatically has bond/bonded with.

Whenever we come home from being with our b-f family we of course have "bash crash" but the "yearning" for more peeps like ourselves out in our neck of the woods makes us sad until we get back to what we know as our "normal life". I miss having our community within arms length.

Hope this makes sense and if it doesn't, you'll have to excuse me because I have so much in my head that it gets a little difficult for me to express sometimes which I believe is A.D.D.!

Best,
-Scorp-

I do believe that is myth...and I think it's a geographical thing. I have said for years that there are really no femmes where I live. Plenty of butches. Perhaps we need a resurging of the femmes in my town!! I sure wouldn't mind! :winky:.

[Princess]

G and Scorp-

We are out there, trust me. There is a whole thread about that issue called Femme invisibility. How would you know how to find us if we "pass" unless we have a stamp across our foreheads or something..

[JAGG]

I'm alive and well and thriving!! Full of life and energy. Present and accounted for. I am not dead yet or dying either. I live in femmelessville USA so I know what you mean in a way.. Maybe you should consider moving to a more butchly populated area.

[dancer611]

So people are mentioning geographical areas a lot...where exactly are these mysterious "butchly populated areas" you speak of? haha :)

[Breathless]

I actually have to agree with dancer. I have found exactly the same thing. On the rare occassion that I do see a *fine* butch, he has been discovered, and deliriously happy with a beautiful femme by his side. Other times I have met someone, and it like wow the packaging is there, but.. imposter in a butches clothing.. :(

[MrSunshine]

I hate it when zombies dress in butch clothing. Especially when they eat your face.

[LaneyDoll]

I hate it when zombies dress in butch clothing. Especially when they eat your face.

OMG!!! I thought I was the only one who hated this!!!

;)

:sparklyheart:

[LaneyDoll]

I actually have to agree with dancer. I have found exactly the same thing. On the rare occassion that I do see a *fine* butch, he has been discovered, and deliriously happy with a beautiful femme by his side. Other times I have met someone, and it like wow the packaging is there, but.. imposter in a butches clothing.. :(

I once went out with a girl who decided that she could "turn butch" since that was MY preference. I could not make her understand that being butch was about more than the clothes someone wore.

:sparklyheart:

[AtLast]

So people are mentioning geographical areas a lot...where exactly are these mysterious "butchly populated areas" you speak of? haha :)

We butches are alive and well in Northern California.

[ruby_woo]

There were a ton of butches when I lived in San Francisco, but there seem to be only about 10 of them in Vancouver- and most of them are quite a bit older than me (I'm 29). Probably the whole dying-breed thing depends on geography, and maybe generation.

Luckily for me I like older butches. Ha!

[Mr Nice Guy]

To me there are more Butches then Femmes where I live. That's another reason why I'm still single. :)

[dancer611]

And where, pray tell, are you at? :)

[Kobi]

I dont think butches are a dying breed. I also dont believe there is a "small group of radical feminists trying to perpetuate this myth".

In my experience, it seems we have been blessed with a wider variety of options not only in sex, gender, and orientations but in the multitude of ways in which these are expressed.

This freedom, it seems, has changed the landscape into something not so easily identifiable and/or congruent with our own defintions and preferences.

It's neither good nor bad. It's just different from the traditionally held norms.

[Library_girl]

I live in So Cal, where there are Butches O' Plenty, but what I notice is that the Butch-Femme dynamic is pretty scarce.

Starry.....butches o' plenty? Really? I guess I've been in a coma. All I see are imposters. Down in San Diego I really haven't seen very many butches. Up here in Palm Springs, there might be one or two. And I know one of them, for a fact, is completely psycho. LMAO Seriously, it's Anodrogyny Central. And like an L-Word Reunion or something too.

So would someone please send me the directions to the more butchly populated locations? I have a GPS. :)

[Mr Nice Guy]

I think that I'm blind to the Femmes in NH. I think they all look straight to me and I do attract straight women which boggles my mind. It's always been a problem since I was young. I'm still trying to figure it out. I even asked one time because I really wanted to know what I did to do that.

[Library_girl]

G and Scorp-

We are out there, trust me. There is a whole thread about that issue called Femme invisibility. How would you know how to find us if we "pass" unless we have a stamp across our foreheads or something..

I have seriously considered such a stamp.

Maybe different colored ones for different outfits. Ooh! We could make bracelets or some other pretty accessory! I love accessories. :blink:

[Quintease]

Where I live I've heard bf people complain there are way more femmes than butches, forgetting that most of the ''femmes'' they're looking at aren't self-identified femmes at all, they are just lesbians who happen to look feminine.

[aishah]

i wonder if it's partly a generational thing. i feel like younger folks are less likely to know what butch or femme mean and less likely to identify that way...i have a lot of femme friends who are around the age of 30 but less that are around my own age or younger. i do know a lot of bois and studs in this age range but unfortunately none of them live near me, hehe. i agree that it could also have something to do with the fact that there's more of a range of options nowadays in terms of expressing one's gender. i also feel like social conceptions of what lesbians and queer women should look like have changed to the point that maybe people are uncomfortable expressing themselves unless they fit the androgynous and/or lipstick norms? maybe i'm talking out of my ass here, i'm just thinking out loud.

I hate it when zombies dress in butch clothing. Especially when they eat your face.

i died laughing and nearly spit coffee all over my keyboard! i needed that this morning (er...afternoon). best thing i've read all week :)

[aishah]

Where I live I've heard bf people complain there are way more femmes than butches, forgetting that most of the ''femmes'' they're looking at aren't self-identified femmes at all, they are just lesbians who happen to look feminine.

yes this!!! thank you for posting this.

[Kobi]

Where I live I've heard bf people complain there are way more femmes than butches, forgetting that most of the ''femmes'' they're looking at aren't self-identified femmes at all, they are just lesbians who happen to look feminine.


Ok this is an example of where terminology and Kobi's lesbian oriented brain disconnect. Can you explain this to me in a way I might get what you are saying?

[Quintease]

Femme - is a gender ID

Lesbian - is a sexual orientation

Lesbians have traditionally all tried to look like each other in order to be visible or did bf, which was a sexual dynamic.

In places where homosexuality is becoming normalised, so are lesbians. So more lesbians are looking mainstream and more straight women are looking gay, ie: no more lesbian 'look'.

[Kobi]

Femme - is a gender ID

Lesbian - is a sexual orientation

Lesbians have traditionally all tried to look like each other in order to be visible or did bf, which was a sexual dynamic.

In places where homosexuality is becoming normalised, so are lesbians. So more lesbians are looking mainstream and more straight women are looking gay, ie: no more lesbian 'look'.


Thank you. That I understood.

[Library_girl]

Femme - is a gender ID

Lesbian - is a sexual orientation

Lesbians have traditionally all tried to look like each other in order to be visible or did bf, which was a sexual dynamic.

In places where homosexuality is becoming normalised, so are lesbians. So more lesbians are looking mainstream and more straight women are looking gay, ie: no more lesbian 'look'.

Welllllll, not always.......sorry Quintease, I have to disagree with one part of what you said. (though I normally agree with so much of what you say and enjoy your posts! So forgive me :) )

"Lesbians have traditionally all tried to look like each other in order to be visible or did bf, which was a sexual dynamic"

Maybe I am being too picky. I don't know how long ago you mean by "traditionally", but if you go back to say the 1960's, 1950's, and before, (the pre-Stonewall years), all lesbians were butch or femme, that was that. Butch/femme wasn't a subset of LGBTQ, or a sexual dynamic. (LGBTQ didn't exist) Lesbian and b/f were one in the same. (Lee Lynch, my favorite author, has written wonderful books about this) So we weren't all trying to look the same back then. If you were a lesbian, you were either butch or femme, period.

OK, I'll shut up now. I'll stop being such a librarian about it. :)

[Quintease]

Welllllll, not always.......sorry Quintease, I have to disagree with one part of what you said. (though I normally agree with so much of what you say and enjoy your posts! So forgive me :) )

"Lesbians have traditionally all tried to look like each other in order to be visible or did bf, which was a sexual dynamic"

Maybe I am being too picky. I don't know how long ago you mean by "traditionally", but if you go back to say the 1960's, 1950's, and before, (the pre-Stonewall years), all lesbians were butch or femme, that was that. Butch/femme wasn't a subset of LGBTQ, or a sexual dynamic. (LGBTQ didn't exist) Lesbian and b/f were one in the same. (Lee Lynch, my favorite author, has written wonderful books about this) So we weren't all trying to look the same back then. If you were a lesbian, you were either butch or femme, period.

OK, I'll shut up now. I'll stop being such a librarian about it. :)

Yes but did individual lesbians have a choice? Invariably no. Butches all looked butch and femmes all looked femme. It was a very heteronormative and rigid way of establishing identity, particularly if you wanted to get laid. I imagine many lesbians today would be stumped were they to be asked to pick a side (remembering that dress back then also corresponded to sexual activity far more than it does today).

[Parker]

I dont think butches are a dying breed. I also dont believe there is a "small group of radical feminists trying to perpetuate this myth".

In my experience, it seems we have been blessed with a wider variety of options not only in sex, gender, and orientations but in the multitude of ways in which these are expressed.

This freedom, it seems, has changed the landscape into something not so easily identifiable and/or congruent with our own defintions and preferences.

It's neither good nor bad. It's just different from the traditionally held norms.

Agreed. I also dont think this myth or belief or whatever is about radfems - I think it's about people having more freedom and more options in which to identify; as well as more freedom and options in which to present that identification. I think it's about being able to be gay without always having to "prove" it as someone else said by the way that one presents oneself. I think it's about being able to be a butch in many different ways, shapes, and forms. :)

So people are mentioning geographical areas a lot...where exactly are these mysterious "butchly populated areas" you speak of? haha :)
I have noticed a ton o' butches out here in Seattle. The couple next door to me appears (to me) to be a butch-femme couple and the couple who runs the dog rescue I work with is also a butch-femme couple who has a ton of butch and femme friends - and that's just 2 couples off of the top of my head. :winky:

[OS Butch]

It sure would make it easier on me if Femmes put a big old "F" on their forehead so I could spot them! :byebye:

I grew up in the rainbow/Lambda era. I can spot a rainbow at 100 meters!:sunglass: Problem there is many see the rainbow differently from B-F dynamic. We need a logo of some sort....There seems to be one form many id's and genders. We need to start a trend :) Way back when I wore a ring with the 2 women symbols...

Of course, it isn't hard for Femmes to see that I am a Butch( of the OFOS variety and that is almost extinct!). But, if a Femme were wearing it, I would know she were Femme:)

[TimilDeeps]

No, we're not dying out.

What I think is happening, like others have already expressed, is that there has been a reordering of sorts. Not in a hierarchical sense but in a fluidity sense. There are far fewer of us butches who claim the ID of butch. The energy is still there, there's no mistaking that. The labels are changing in our community, and there are far more choices in labeling oneself than there were 10 or even 5 years ago.

With change comes restructure. With restructuring comes a new vocabulary, be that good, bad or indifferent.

[Toughy]

Princess..........the color (light pink) you use is very hard to read....just so you know....

---------------------

No butch is not a dying breed. If you live in the SF Bay Area you can join ButchFemme Socials yahoo group and our website (my sig line). We have been doing Socials (Yes a Social where you talk to each other without loud music) in SF and Oakland for about 12 years now and it's still going strong. Or if you are coming to town let me or Rope know the dates and we will have a little get together so you can meet folks.....butch, femme, lesbian, pansexual, queer....we are very inclusive.

I have seen a bunch of 'isms' and 'myths' in this thread. It ranges from radical lesbian feminists to impostor butch to old school is dying to traditionally lesbians all dress/look alike to butch/femme is a hetero-normative dynamic to using he when generally referencing a butch to back in the day you had to be butch or femme to......well you get the picture.

Perhaps there is a grain of truth to some of these, but most of them are very broad generalizations.

I know there are plenty of folks who ID as butch in the Bay Area, and there are plenty who run butch energy but don't claim it as an identity. I think folks see what they want to see. If you want to find butch folks (or femme folks), then find some target rich environments.....first thing is get out of the bar. If you live in a larger town or city there are plenty of places you might find butches....film festivals/art gallery opening that feature queer artists, the local queer/womens bookstore (though these are getting harder to find), readings at bookstores, eating in the local gay area, the grocery store in the gay area.....in Oakland some dykes started a wear purple or was it green on tuesday evenings at Whole Foods... GLBT night at the baseball/football games, go women's sports games at the local college or WNBA.....looking for butch (or femme) only in a bar/club is not really going to get you anywhere most of the time.

that's my nickel on the subject.......

[apretty]

Well, you have Dinah this weekend--You should probably see more than a few.

I have to agree with Starry, I think there's plenty of butches in San Diego--When we're out Q frequently spots them trying to give me the eye. (Whereas, I never look about, ever.) ;)

Though, I must say your use of the word, 'imposters' is a curious choice.


Starry.....butches o' plenty? Really? I guess I've been in a coma. All I see are imposters. Down in San Diego I really haven't seen very many butches. Up here in Palm Springs, there might be one or two. And I know one of them, for a fact, is completely psycho. LMAO Seriously, it's Anodrogyny Central. And like an L-Word Reunion or something too.

So would someone please send me the directions to the more butchly populated locations? I have a GPS. :)

[MissItalianDiva]

I agree with Toughy. Here in the Bay there is definitely not a lack of butch identified folks or butch energy. I personally think Toughy hits a pretty valid point. I see and hear of folks all the time expecting to go into the bar or gay club wanting to meet folks. How well can you possibly interact with someone in that type of environment.

After reading this thread I am even more grateful to be living in the Bay Area. Of and as for the Whole Foods color I think it is green...?

Also I think it is important to ask ourselves when trying to date a specific type of person who identifies a certain way do we truly know what WE are looking for or are we looking for a "stereotype". What's on the surface is not always what is on the core of someone. Just a thought

[Breathless]

I feel like I should clarify my comment about imposter in a butches clothing.. I agree, and am grateful that butches come in all body types, styles, long hair, short hair.. my comment was more in reference to the stereotypical attitude that a butch is protective, polite, gentlemanly, mannered, respectful etc, vs a set physical ideal of what makes identity. Being butch or how ever you label or dont label yourself comes from the heart... agreed :)

[Rockinonahigh]

I hope us butches are going out of style,I do know hear we (at home) dont have a large bf communits infact its fue and far between.I've met some femmes on line and on the planet but not any where I live,but at my age 64 and counting down to 65 the dateing pool is slim to nun.

[Breathless]

A classy human being is never out of style :)I hope us butches are going out of style,I do know hear we (at home) dont have a large bf communits infact its fue and far between.I've met some femmes on line and on the planet but not any where I live,but at my age 64 and counting down to 65 the dateing pool is slim to nun.

[Martina]

i used to carry a wallet and not a purse.

Was i . . . *gasp* . . . a butch impostor?

[Scuba]

i used to carry a wallet and not a purse.

Was i . . . *gasp* . . . a butch impostor?

**plays shocking music**

A butch imposter? Say it's not soooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

[Scuba]

I'm still alive...just sayin ;)

[Library_girl]

Yes but did individual lesbians have a choice? Invariably no. Butches all looked butch and femmes all looked femme. It was a very heteronormative and rigid way of establishing identity, particularly if you wanted to get laid. I imagine many lesbians today would be stumped were they to be asked to pick a side (remembering that dress back then also corresponded to sexual activity far more than it does today).

Excellent point!!! See, I love your posts. :yeahthat:

[StoneOne]

I will never give up on forever .....
I do believe in taking time to find the one and spending forever together....
I do believe in forgetting the small stuff dont sweat it .......
I do believe in partnerships it takes 2 to tango good and bad...
I do believe U must pay attention dont get to comfortable .......
I do believe U must learn to forgive in your heart or pay the piper......
I dont believe U fill a void just because it is there......
I do believe if u let it go and it comes back it's forever if not it never was........
I do believe if u make a commitment u should stand by it......
I do believe there is someone for everyone .....
I do believe u have just to find one another .......

this is prolly not the right thread for this post but well ya know......

[mariamma]

It sure would make it easier on me if Femmes put a big old "F" on their forehead so I could spot them!

I usually give butch women a big, open smile, look them deep in the eyes and say "Hi". If one neuron is working, she and everyone around her will know I'm a femme saying Hi to a butch woman.
cuz I'm subtle like that :sunglass:

[mariamma]

I feel like I should clarify my comment about imposter in a butches clothing.. I agree, and am grateful that butches come in all body types, styles, long hair, short hair.. my comment was more in reference to the stereotypical attitude that a butch is protective, polite, gentlemanly, mannered, respectful etc, vs a set physical ideal of what makes identity. Being butch or how ever you label or dont label yourself comes from the heart... agreed :)
I like your definition of a butch Breathless. They do exist but in too few numbers IMO Some are ID'd as queer/bois/etc. now and will bust out that shell as they evolve in life. Some current young butches will evolve into queer/studs/etc. Still not enough dashing, charming, gentlemynly butches in the world for this sensual, curious, complimentary femme. Won't someone tell the straights to make more butch babies :praying:

[Breathless]

I have a butch baby for a daughter..lol.. she appears very femme, however it is deceiving :) Dont nobody get any ideas.. she is 16

And thank you Amma :)

[BullDog]

When I was a little kid I asked my Dad if girls could be astronauts (there weren't any girl astronauts then). He said yes.

The best way to ensure there will be more butches is to set a good example, be a mentor when asked, and to continue to let the world know that women and females can be any way they want to be. We are not restricted by any sexist or gender stereotypes. If some call themselves by names other than butch that's all good too.

[wetfromashower]

As small as the state of Delaware is... There is no lack of Butches here... and in a three hour radius you have many states with unlimited butches... (de,nj,pa,md,va,dc,ny... to name a few states) just my two cents...

[Apocalipstic]

i used to carry a wallet and not a purse.

Was i . . . *gasp* . . . a butch impostor?

OMG, me too lolololol
but I could never fnd my stuff

[starryeyes]

Maybe it has something to do with social media? I am a youngin' so I can't talk about "back in the day" but there seems to be a hell of a lot more social influence on lesbians now than ever. With shows like, The L Word, The Real L Word, Curl Girls, shows on LOGO, Ellen, Rachel Maddow, etc, everyone is a soft butch or androgynous. I am racking my brain, and can not think of one strong butch role model in social media today that is not looked down upon.

"Back in the Day", from what I have read, and heard from people who were there, Butch Femme was a social scene and Butches were taken under the wings of other Butches and mentored/supported and it was an inclusive group with relatively NO influence from mainstream America. Now with all of this external influential, pressure and America's stereotypes of "what lesbians should look like and be like" it kinda makes sense that the newer generation is changing and there are not as many "Butches" (in the way we are describing here) around anymore. It sucks, but maybe it's just evolution.

[TimilDeeps]

As small as the state of Delaware is... There is no lack of Butches here... and in a three hour radius you have many states with unlimited butches... (de,nj,pa,md,va,dc,ny... to name a few states) just my two cents...

oh so true your royal wetness. and as someone who lives in PA, I can tell ya it is Butch central.

[kittygrrl]

not so much are butches a dying breed but i'm quite sure OS butches are rare everywhere :hk23:

[TimilDeeps]

not so much are butches a dying breed but i'm quite sure OS butches are rare everywhere :hk23:

Then again, we've always been a rare breed ;)

[Christy51274]

I've heard time and time again that butches are "dying out," that there are tons more femmes than butches and that that trend will likely continue. I haven't been out long and don't know much about the overall community. Is this true, or a myth that people in femme-heavy areas like to throw around?
@Dancer:

I'm so glad you've brought this up. Whenever I go out, femmes are the majority. I live near Baltimore and haven't checked out the D.C. scene yet, but butches, FtM trans guys, etc. are rare indeed! Oh well...I'm not really seeking them out, but would be nice to see more of them around. :)

[Toughy]

I like your definition of a butch Breathless. They do exist but in too few numbers IMO Some are ID'd as queer/bois/etc. now and will bust out that shell as they evolve in life. Some current young butches will evolve into queer/studs/etc. Still not enough dashing, charming, gentlemynly butches in the world for this sensual, curious, complimentary femme. Won't someone tell the straights to make more butch babies :praying:


I'm telling you .............you are not looking in the right places......

they/we/us are out there..........and to you and me/us open your eyes and see what is around you

[Toughy]

@Dancer:

I'm so glad you've brought this up. Whenever I go out, femmes are the majority. I live near Baltimore and haven't checked out the D.C. scene yet, but butches, FtM trans guys, etc. are rare indeed! Oh well...I'm not really seeking them out, but would be nice to see more of them around. :)

actually I am tired of this....

stop looking where alcohol is prevalent and the music is so loud you always are saying 'what...huh....what" as you look around for the maybe next not perfect one standing at the bar who is bar dancing sexier than the one you thought might be a butch you want..........

please......

[AlexHunter]

I do agree with the other posters - whether butches are a dying breed may depend upon where you are. I lived in DC for eight years and there were lots of butches. The butch-femme dynamic was a relatively common thing, especially the pinup femme + dapper butch pairing. Butch on butch was equally common.

Here in Houston, TX, butches seem to be much less prevalent, though not completely extinct. From my observations, there are plenty of people here who I'd say were somewhere in the middle.

I also agree that self-identifying as butch is not as common as it used to be. The butch-presenting people of my generation (I'm 28) have many more words to describe themselves. Terms like "stud," "boi," "genderqueer," and "androgyne" were not around for the generations before me. Some of the people who identify as the aforementioned terms also identify as butch and some people can find a version of the dynamic without the label.

However, I have met several masculine-of-center folks who have a deep aversion to the word "butch" despite looking the part and oftentimes "playing" it, too. They seem to dislike the implications of the word or feel it's not quite their word for some other reason.

I personally embrace the term butch (as well as genderqueer/transgender to represent my alternate gender identity and androgyne - by the dictionary definition - to describe my physical appearance) because I am a queer history buff and I appreciate the path the butches of old paved for the butches of my generation to be more readily accepted and because butch means masculine, which I am.

I (and plenty of other butches, I'm sure) have sometimes felt femmes were a dying breed. This has caused me to date my share of feminine-looking women who are usually bisexual and don't actively claim the term "femme" even if they mesh well with me.

I am more than a little old fashioned in some ways and the complete opposite of traditional in others. When it comes to the dynamic I have with a femme, I am what some would define as an old school butch and I definitely try to be a gentleman... ;)

[SugarFemme]

Toughy, I TOTALLY agree with you on this. If someone is saying that want a relationship, bars typically are not the place to look for one. Between the music, the inherent issues with alcohol consumption and the all around "pick-up" attitude at a bar, chances are you are not going to find the "one". With that said, when I was 21 and just coming out, that was where I drifted to. Now, at 50, I have no interest in that type of environment for finding someone or really even to hang out in. If one looks, unless you are in BFE, most metropolitan cities have a variety of clubs, interest groups etc which do not include bars.




actually I am tired of this....

stop looking where alcohol is prevalent and the music is so loud you always are saying 'what...huh....what" as you look around for the maybe next not perfect one standing at the bar who is bar dancing sexier than the one you thought might be a butch you want..........

please......

[SweetJane]

I'm telling you .............you are not looking in the right places......

they/we/us are out there..........and to you and me/us open your eyes and see what is around you

Toughy, you all may be out there but it's very hard to find you. I have done the meetup groups, the clubs, the lessons, etc. and I only seem to find gay women who aren't butch (or femme, for that matter). The one or two I've seen are partnered, too.

I do things I like to do, go places I want, I talk to all sorts of people, and try to find our community among them. Still looking. I just want to have a conversation with my own kind. Thinking of dating you strong butches may become more fantasy than reality in my region.

Part of the problem where I am is that the gay community has become so blended with the hetero world that we are everywhere and nowhere. It is just hard for us to find each other.

[Chancie]

Sweet Jane, I think I understand what you mean. I often think of the difference between the melting pot and the tossed salad metaphors for places that are racially, culturally, and linguistically diverse. I mean, we are talking about femmes and butches and other queer identified people, I know, but is it better to fit in or to maintain a separateness to protect one's own culture?

This digression is brought to you by the letter q and the number 17.

[DapperButch]

Sweet Jane, I think I understand what you mean. I often think of the difference between the melting pot and the tossed salad metaphors for places that are racially, culturally, and linguistically diverse. I mean, we are talking about femmes and butches and other queer identified people, I know, but is it better to fit in or to maintain a separateness to protect one's own culture?

This digression is brought to you by the letter q and the number 17.

I would suggest both have benefits. Separately for cultural reasons and assimilated for political (and other) reasons.

I believe that in our desire to earn our "equal rights" that we have forgotten the importance of the former. Perhaps this is a function of the younger homosexual/queer population being accepted into mainstream society, so they don't need to make their own spaces. However, being in a gay/queer space feeds my soul in a way that I would never want to be without.

The younger generation say they are lucky to have been born in a time when "we" are more accepted. In some ways, yes. But, I wouldn't forego my experiences of discrimination that forced the creation of separate spaces for a more "comfortable" public life, ever.

[SweetJane]

I would suggest both have benefits. Separately for cultural reasons and assimilated for political (and other) reasons.

I believe that in our desire to earn our "equal rights" that we have forgotten the importance of the former. Perhaps this is a function of the younger homosexual/queer population being accepted into mainstream society, so they don't need to make their own spaces. However, being in a gay/queer space feeds my soul in a way that I would never want to be without.

The younger generation say they are lucky to have been born in a time when "we" are more accepted. In some ways, yes. But, I wouldn't forego my experiences of discrimination that forced the creation of separate spaces for a more "comfortable" public life, ever.

Dapper and Chancie, you both make strong points. I think this has been what the black community is dealing with today, meaning younger people looking for a black cultural identity. However for them, it's easier to find their community members. With us, we blend in very well or are accepted....though there are regions in the country where very strongly male ID'd butches are still marginalized.

For me, though, finding community is hard because I don't fit in with the wider lesbian group, though they may think I belong there just because I'm gay. I need to be with my own kind for validation--at the least--and companionship--if that's even possible.

[Curley]

[quote=ruby_woo;555602]There were a ton of butches when I lived in San Francisco, but there seem to be only about 10 of them in Vancouver- and most of them are quite a bit older than me (I'm 29). Probably the whole dying-breed thing depends on geography, and maybe generation.

Luckily for me I like older butches.

Ruby woo
I'm in Vancouver too and yes butches seem sparse but I have the opposite problem. The ones I see are all way younger I'm 55' maybe we need to hang out in each others turf. Lol

[tara_kerrie]

Im butch. In my state there arent many femmes. And it seems like i all attract are bi-sexuals who wanna have a 3-some
With their bf

[Shadownthemind]

I don't know about any other butches but I do know this butch is very much here and alive. I'm not going anywhere.

And this butch is here and not going any where

[clay]

as is this one...present & accounted for....grins

[Finn]

I thought I'd ad to this post as well.. I am an Old School Butch/Daddy :caveman:so talk about few and between.. :hatsmoke:.. I'd love to find an Old School Femme/Babgirl,, :flowers: ,,or a nice down to earth Femme :bow: to share my life with....:toast:.....Lord knows I've tried....:smelling-flower:.. We are out there Ladies,, :coffee:,,never give up.. I certainly won't ..:formalbow: :goodluck:


:byebye:

[StrongButch]

No we are not. But many things have changed in this community I want to say I am an older butch (58) There are now many more labels. Another thing that has also happened alot of butches including myself date other butches or tombois. As well as femmes dating other femmes. I wish all of you luck in finding that butch but they are out there.

[Sky_femme]

Yes.. I think all butches are in the US! :) I find it so hard to meet someone in the UK, and I am in the capital! :worried:

[sarahwho]

"If" they are in Ohio, they aren't near me...."if" they are near me, they are hiding under a rock. :blink:

[SweetJane]

"If" they are in Ohio, they aren't near me...."if" they are near me, they are hiding under a rock. :blink:

I hear you Sarahwho! The butches who may be where I am are hiding, too. Maybe it's because my state doesn't have large metro areas. The three major cities here seem to absorb the gay population. We're all well accepted but we can't find each other as a community---only at major GLBT events such as Pride. And even then the butch-femme representation is quite small.


Sigh. Sarahwho, maybe we need to make a pilgrimage to a large b-f gathering just to be reassured that butches actually exist in real time.

[tazz]

i agree with sarawho... i am having Zero luck with coming across a butch here in Cali...

[aishah]

apparently all the butches are hanging out in airports ;)

i was on 6 flights in four days earlier this week and i spotted several butches in the chicago and atlanta airports...made me swoon every time.

[Leigh]

actually I am tired of this....

stop looking where alcohol is prevalent and the music is so loud you always are saying 'what...huh....what" as you look around for the maybe next not perfect one standing at the bar who is bar dancing sexier than the one you thought might be a butch you want..........

please......


I've never been a bar person; your lucky if I have 2 drinks a year, so the bar has never been a place for me. I'd rather find someone who I can talk with, who isn't drunk and that I can connect with on a deeper level than what any bar could ever offer. If I find someone, it certainly won't be anywhere that I'd have to deal with a drunk person!

[Mr Nice Guy]

I've seen many Butches in NH. I'll tell you where to look if you want to move. I see them all the time. Of course I work outside everyday. So I see plenty of them. :)

[~ocean]

must be something in the air up there lol

[Quintease]

There was a bit group of them outside my flat tonight. Unfortunately they weren't mine so I couldn't share them out ;)

[morningstar55]

i would say no... butchs are not a dying breed.
BUT ........... the gentlemen old school honest types are.
i mean dont they know you can still be a stud/bad boi etc.. but yet still have this gentlemen old school about them that melts any girls heart.

[tazz]

I've seen many Butches in NH. I'll tell you where to look if you want to move. I see them all the time. Of course I work outside everyday. So I see plenty of them. :)

***looks in Mr. Nice Guy's direction... ;)

[Hack]

Speaking for myself, I'm alive and well.

;)

[tara_kerrie]

i would say no... butchs are not a dying breed.
BUT ........... the gentlemen old school honest types are.
i mean dont they know you can still be a stud/bad boi etc.. but yet still have this gentlemen old school about them that melts any girls heart.

I am one of the gentleman old school honest types...in a 28 year old's body.

[tara_kerrie]

i would say no... butchs are not a dying breed.
BUT ........... the gentlemen old school honest types are.
i mean dont they know you can still be a stud/bad boi etc.. but yet still have this gentlemen old school about them that melts any girls heart.


In my case, morning star being a gentleman old school honest type makes me un-datable for many femmes. I cannot count on all my fingers and toes how many times i've been told that i'm too sweet and innocent because of my ways.
It just happened last night.

[tazz]

i've seen plenty of butches in my area~bay area Cali~however, they are usually in a relationship, or, into the Leather life and i'm not in that lifestyle anymore...

[morningstar55]

In my case, morning star being a gentleman old school honest type makes me un-datable for many femmes. I cannot count on all my fingers and toes how many times i've been told that i'm too sweet and innocent because of my ways.
It just happened last night.

ahh im sorry to read this...... hope you find the right kinda girl :)
im 57 and well......... im kinda looking around and kinda not.
i adore a old fashion old school type.. BUT i also melt over one with some bad boi , kink ,packing kinda guy mixed in there.. yeha.. lol lol ..... sorry kinda got carried away there.
whewww i need some chocolate :chocolate:

[OS Butch]

ahh im sorry to read this...... hope you find the right kinda girl :)
im 57 and well......... im kinda looking around and kinda not.
i adore a old fashion old school type.. BUT i also melt over one with some bad boi , kink ,packing kinda guy mixed in there.. yeha.. lol lol ..... sorry kinda got carried away there.
whewww i need some chocolate :chocolate:


I knew there was a reason I wasn't your type ;) Hehehehe!

[stonebutchinpa]

This old fashioned old school butch is alive and well in PA. I think the femmes are a dying breed, atleast in this area.

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

I am one of the gentleman old school honest types...in a 28 year old's body.

yes you are!

APG, glad she is able to call Kerrie her friend!

[Greco]

Nope! I'm quite alive and well and so are my OSOF Butch friends...Greco

[Breezy]

I met, dated and married my OFOS butch. There are plenty out there, trust me. I see them daily. Most of the butch women I know are not trans but go by she (female id'd). My gf & I hear them lament where are the femmes who are into female id'd butches? Where are the femmes who can accept us as we are and not insist we follow a particular "rule book" simply because we are butch.

My gf included here and other butches have been scarred because femmes said they could not cry, have feelings or act in the least bit what they termed "girly." My gf was shocked when she was allowed to be herself completely and not ridiculed or stereotyped simply because she is butch and did or said something ex gfs had said was not butch enough or was girly. For pity's sake, we are all human but to hold such rigid ideas about what is acceptable is just too much. Who are the butch police and can we get them fired?

[tara_kerrie]

yes you are!

APG, glad she is able to call Kerrie her friend!

Thanks APG! I am glad to call you my friend also.

[tara_kerrie]

ahh im sorry to read this...... hope you find the right kinda girl :)
im 57 and well......... im kinda looking around and kinda not.
i adore a old fashion old school type.. BUT i also melt over one with some bad boi , kink ,packing kinda guy mixed in there.. yeha.. lol lol ..... sorry kinda got carried away there.
whewww i need some chocolate :chocolate:

I have to learn what everyone is referring to as bad boi. Im not very kinky at all (probaly due to lack of experience being kinky), and I just started packing.

[Glenn]

For pity's sake, we are all human but to hold such rigid ideas about what is acceptable is just too much. Who are the butch police and can we get them fired?


^^^^^^^^
I'll co-sign this.

[Beloved]

OFOS butch? Is that Old fashioned old school or???

[Breezy]

OFOS butch? Is that Old fashioned old school or???

Old Fashion Old School is correct.

[morningstar55]

I knew there was a reason I wasn't your type ;) Hehehehe!

... uh really now...:blink:.. lol

[Beloved]

Can someone define "old school" butch for me? I think it may mean different things to different people. If you ID that way or are partnered with someon who ID's that way tell me why. :bunchflowers:

[Rope]

Plenty of butches here in the Oakland and San Francisco area.

Old School butch I believe refers to a time when butches "had to" wear ties or masculine clothing and identify as masculine. Today, butches come in all variations on a theme-thus faggy butches, sporty butches, butches into butches, butches into femmes, queer identified butches, butches that prefer he or hy and butches that prefer she, some that feel predominantly masculine or female, some that id more trans or trans, and everything else anyone can come up with as a identifier for themself, in short, more fluid.

I've also heard that old school butch referred to a time when butches had manners, i.e., opened the car door for a femme etc. But as everyone knows <g> good manners never go out of style and are not from an 'old' or bygone era.

Rope--

[NorCalStud]

Imo. They are not a dying breed; they are a tired breed. I lived with a woman years ago who made osof a religion. She wanted me on point on all that and I will be there if the same is returned. If that lil shit didnt try and top from the bottom and skate thru all her osof committments. Part of my job became reminding her to nurture me...childhood neglect for her...again in My opinion you need similiar value systems...good division of labor skills...money...and an ability to roll your sleeves up cause it takes more than love. I think it works beautifully for dating and rarely for living together especially the older we get..just sayin.

[Galahad]

Library Girl, there are plenty of young butches in the IE, just down below from you. I see 1 almost everytime I go out in my small town.

[Quintease]

Can someone define "old school" butch for me? I think it may mean different things to different people. If you ID that way or are partnered with someon who ID's that way tell me why. :bunchflowers:

Hm, I'd be curious to know as well. The only 'old school butch' I ever dated assaulted me when I didn't do as I was told. I'm sure that's not what anyone means, but it's sure put me off the phrase.

[Toughy]

I've always associated 'old school' with manners, courtesy, politeness and the tie and suit wearing kind of butch.....which would describe me.

I decidedly do not ever want 'old fashioned' attached to me. I associate 'old fashioned' with that fairy tale of the 50's where the man (butch) went to work and the woman (femme) stayed home and cooked, cleaned and was all made-up and pretty with supper on the table when the man came home.

I'm with Rope about old school. Manners should never be out of style and we have plenty of butches of all stripes in the Bay Area. You will see a bunch of us at our Spring Fling social on May 12. Femmes will be there also.

Maybe the problem is some femmes are looking for a very particular kind of butch and are missing all the rest of us that are right in front of your eyes.....shrug.....

[Toughy]

and one more thing.............

I have never had a femme tell me I was not butch enough. The reverse is true for me. I have had more than one femme tell me I needed to tone it down a bit.....I was too butch for them, especially to take home to the parental units. They were embarrassed when I got called Sir also.

[aishah]

i can't imagine meeting a butch who is 'too butch' for me. i'm sad that so much butch policing goes on in our communities. i've been on the end of some pretty painful femme policing, and that's not exactly the same but i know it was hurtful for me. i love all flavors of butch and i am grateful for the different ways y'all express yourselves. it would be a sad world if all the butches and femmes were exactly the same way!

[dykeumentary]

I've had Femmes tell me I'm not butch enough for them.
It stings a little, but I end up being cheerful, because we clearly would never have worked out anyway.

[Rope]

One of my first femme g/f's in my twenties--told me I was too butch. Where she really crossed the line was asking me to wear lacy panties because 'she did that for me'...it ended very soon after that request.

Rope--

[dykeumentary]

I've had Femmes tell me I'm not butch enough for them.
It stings a little, but I end up being cheerful, because we clearly would never have worked out anyway.

Ha! A Femme friend just informed me that it is 'not very butch' to admit that I've been told I'm not butch enough!

[Corkey]

I think that as with all things, evolution happens. Fluidity is an amazing thing, exploring the facets of identity can be life affirming, and understanding human nature is an ongoing journey. Coming to self can either be an adventure or a weight. So I choose to see the diversity that is Butch, and in that one word, a multitude of expression. Butch is not dead, it is alive and well.

[bkisbutchenuff]

Simply...NO! Butch is alive and well!:cigar:

[morningstar55]

and one more thing.............

I have never had a femme tell me I was not butch enough. The reverse is true for me. I have had more than one femme tell me I needed to tone it down a bit.....I was too butch for them, especially to take home to the parental units. They were embarrassed when I got called Sir also.

to tone it down???
i never would ask my butch to tone it down ... and i was never ever embarassed when they called hym sir or refer'd to hym as my husband. i just went with it like any normal person would when there out together family or not.
ha i felt kinda wierd she someone would call us ladies... but that didnt happen to often.. hehe

[tazz]

I've had Femmes tell me I'm not butch enough for them.
It stings a little, but I end up being cheerful, because we clearly would never have worked out anyway.

***ditto dykeumentary.
when i was a femme, i was told i'm not femme enough. now through my journeys, i've also been told i'm not butch enough.

screw it!! iamwhoiam... if anyone cannot accept me... its Their issue not mine!

~t

[tara_kerrie]

My definition of old school: when a butch/guy/trans treats the ladies with respect. They open the doors for them. They bring flowers (first date, first meet, and anything in between). A person would NEVER even think about doing anything with a friend or acquaintance's person (whethet they be together or they know their friend likes them).

I am 28 years old and most of the people that I have been around (other than members of the planet) do not even attempt to open the door for
Their partners. They dont bring flowers.

IMO these are some characteristics of an OSOF butch. These are characteristics that I am PROUD to have.

[AtLast]

I've always associated 'old school' with manners, courtesy, politeness and the tie and suit wearing kind of butch.....which would describe me.

I decidedly do not ever want 'old fashioned' attached to me. I associate 'old fashioned' with that fairy tale of the 50's where the man (butch) went to work and the woman (femme) stayed home and cooked, cleaned and was all made-up and pretty with supper on the table when the man came home.

I'm with Rope about old school. Manners should never be out of style and we have plenty of butches of all stripes in the Bay Area. You will see a bunch of us at our Spring Fling social on May 12. Femmes will be there also.

Maybe the problem is some femmes are looking for a very particular kind of butch and are missing all the rest of us that are right in front of your eyes.....shrug.....

Yup, quite a distinction between "old school" and "old fashioned" and manners matter- for both butches & femmes... people in general, actually.

Funny, "old school" really has no time cohort at all. I have often heard a butch much younger than myself say "I'm old school."

[Martina]

Ha! A Femme friend just informed me that it is 'not very butch' to admit that I've been told I'm not butch enough!

What kinda femmes are you talking to? Lawd, the gall, to police someone's gender presentation like that.

[morningstar55]

to tone it down???
i never would ask my butch to tone it down ... and i was never ever embarassed when they called hym sir or refer'd to hym as my husband. i just went with it like any normal person would when there out together family or not.
ha i felt kinda wierd she someone would call us ladies... but that didnt happen to often.. hehe

haha... was rereading some stuff here... and ty for the reppies ... but boy i kinda chopped this up huh?? lol ..
should of left out the she part in that last sentance and put when

[Breezy]

My definition of old school: when a butch/guy/trans treats the ladies with respect. They open the doors for them. They bring flowers (first date, first meet, and anything in between). A person would NEVER even think about doing anything with a friend or acquaintance's person (whethet they be together or they know their friend likes them).

I am 28 years old and most of the people that I have been around (other than members of the planet) do not even attempt to open the door for
Their partners. They dont bring flowers.

IMO these are some characteristics of an OSOF butch. These are characteristics that I am PROUD to have.

Precisely, Kerrie. You keep up the good work. She's coming to you. The one you both deserve.

[tara_kerrie]

Precisely, Kerrie. You keep up the good work. She's coming to you. The one you both deserve.

Thank You Breezy. I will keep up the good work. Surely there is someone out there who will appreciate those things about me!

[LaneyDoll]

I am wondering about this...

Could it be that butches and femmes are not so much a dying breed as it is that the entire community is evolving? Today, we have more people identifying as genderfluid/genderqueer/androgynous than we did in the past.

So maybe it is not that breeds are dying as much as they are becoming more specialized?

:sparklyheart:

[CherylNYC]

Where are the femmes who can accept us as we are and not insist we follow a particular "rule book" simply because we are butch...

...For pity's sake, we are all human but to hold such rigid ideas about what is acceptable is just too much. Who are the butch police and can we get them fired?

When I finally ascend my rightful throne as Queen Of The World, PINK slips will be sent to all the self appointed butch police at dawn, before breakfast.

[Luckydwg07]

I don't believe we've been pinned down yet....I don't think we should. All these terms & styles of butchres will always BE. I can say (now that I have some years to my life) that I have evolved in their minds with more than one terms but I always have been the butch I see today.
Does this make sense? I hope so because I started as a kid being labled atomboy/farm hand then a sporty butch in h.s. then in the mid 80's androgynous when hitting the limelight in nyc & now butch as a mature person. However people r still curious because they sometimes aren't sure how to see me.
I am all of the above and still me.
I just think sometimes names become popular & fashionable for a time & then repeat as time passes as well....we create & as Corkey said keep evolving.
I am too
Thanx for the thread

[AtLast]

I am wondering about this...

Could it be that butches and femmes are not so much a dying breed as it is that the entire community is evolving? Today, we have more people identifying as genderfluid/genderqueer/androgynous than we did in the past.

So maybe it is not that breeds are dying as much as they are becoming more specialized?

:sparklyheart:

I think what you are saying here makes a lot of sense and personally, even as a butch in my 60's, feel this is positive. I have always felt that my being a butch is centered in gender fluidity and that one does not have to be trans or inter-gendered to reap the benefits of a more open way to experience gender as it is evolving today.

We are a sub-set within the glorious range of gender identity that is evolving today. In the future, I hope that statements like butches being a "dying breed" finds its way out of our conversations. Always feels like a "vs." statement that has caused pain between all of us and impeded our ability to communicate.

When I first saw the title to this thread, I have to admit, I thought about how it might be viewed as anti-trans to some members. Although, posts are from a various members with differing gender identifications- kewl!

[LaneyDoll]

I think what you are saying here makes a lot of sense and personally, even as a butch in my 60's, feel this is positive. I have always felt that my being a butch is centered in gender fluidity and that one does not have to be trans or inter-gendered to reap the benefits of a more open way to experience gender as it is evolving today.

We are a sub-set within the glorious range of gender identity that is evolving today. In the future, I hope that statements like butches being a "dying breed" finds its way out of our conversations. Always feels like a "vs." statement that has caused pain between all of us and impeded our ability to communicate.

When I first saw the title to this thread, I have to admit, I thought about how it might be viewed as anti-trans to some members. Although, posts are from a various members with differing gender identifications- kewl!

I am glad you read it as positive because I mean it that way. I am in a lucky position. My involvement in the BDSM lifestyle allows me to meet a variety of people. I have a lot of friends who identify as queer/genderqueer/genderfluid/andro. And they are ALL in their 20s. So, to me, it seems to be that the younger generations are identifying in ways outside of "butch/femme."

:sparklyheart:

[Apocalipstic]

I like to think of it like I think of radio.

Radio used to be just top 40, now stations are quite specialized.

[Mr Nice Guy]

Still here, still Butch and happy being so. :)

[AtLast]

Still here, still Butch and happy being so. :)

I remain butch (and lesbian) and always will and also frame butch in terms of a range of gender that has evolved. There are many folks that ID as transmasculine butches. I don't, but see where this fits as remaining within butch identification.

LOL, sometimes I think that being from originally and living in a region (SF Bay Area) that just has multi-population of queer folks including multi-sexualities might have influenced me in terms of seeing butch as simply one cog in a varied wheel.

[FemmeAllae]

I do believe that is myth...and I think it's a geographical thing. I have said for years that there are really no femmes where I live. Plenty of butches. Perhaps we need a resurging of the femmes in my town!! I sure wouldn't mind! :winky:

I think people say that because they want a certain type of butch or femme and when they can't find one they say there are none left. So not true.

Plenty of butches, you say?! Where do you live?!

[chefhmboyrd]

i never really identified as A Butch, i was just always masculine and butchy
i didn't participate in the BF community until after i began to transition.

i will have to agree with the evolving theories.
there are so many different labels and ways to identify, masculine, feminine, stone, androgynous, gender-queer, intersexed, cis-gendered, trans, assexual.....
so many under the LrgBLT umbrella
:seeingstars:

it can be confusing because what one person considers butch or femme may be slightly different from someone else's perspective. there are even some who swing both ways depending on who they are with......

fluidity......

[Apocalipstic]

I think if anything the Internets have made it easier to find/meet Butches.
Before Internet you almost had to wait for Butches to show up on your porch or work with a relative.

:sunglass:

[alexri]

I don't think butches are a dying breed... but what I do notice is...
1) how many people put in their dating profiles online that they are a femme who only wants a femme or a sporty femme
2) how many butches do not self-identify as butch because they feel like they will be boxed into a role... they seem to feel like they have more freedom if they identify as andro.

I definitely feel outnumbered as a butch where I am. It seems there are an overwhelming number of butches, and a large number of femmes who are not interested in butches.

[shiagirl]

Not in my world they are not a dying breed. :giggle:

[JistMe]

There aren't many in my neck of the woods. I stick out like a sore thumb. Sometimes I feel like a crow at a beach full of seagulls. That's why I like this site. Keeps me from feeling like I'm floating away.

[Bleu]

Not in my world they are not a dying breed. :giggle:

Amen, sister.
~Bleu

[DapperButch]

I don't think butches are a dying breed... but what I do notice is...
1) how many people put in their dating profiles online that they are a femme who only wants a femme or a sporty femme
2) how many butches do not self-identify as butch because they feel like they will be boxed into a role... they seem to feel like they have more freedom if they identify as andro.

I definitely feel outnumbered as a butch where I am. It seems there are an overwhelming number of butches, and a large number of femmes who are not interested in butches.

First off, welcome to the site!

Secondly, I have a thought about your #2 statement. If the people you are talking about don't define as butch to begin with, then why do you say that they are "butches" that define as "andro"?

Also, what do you mean by "more freedom"? I am not trying to debate your statements at all, I am just curious about your thinking on this.

[alexri]

First off, welcome to the site!

Secondly, I have a thought about your #2 statement. If the people you are talking about don't define as butch to begin with, then why do you say that they are "butches" that define as "andro"?

Also, what do you mean by "more freedom"? I am not trying to debate your statements at all, I am just curious about your thinking on this.

Thanks for the welcome! Most nights I post after a long day at work so I hope what I write makes sense.

What I mean is that I see more people automatically assuming that butch/fem = hetero male/female... that then the butch can't possibly be a switch or a sub sometimes.. that the butch is expected to take on all the stereotypical expectations of a straight male in a relationship... and that they call themselves andro instead so they have the freedom to not be assumed to be "the guy" 100 percent of the time. Does this make sense?

[Martina]

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

I think a lot of younger folks think that butch-femme is very gender conformist and heteronormative. We do see some of that on this site. It used to be rampant on the other site. (I know there are more sites out there, but I can't keep up. I am old. I am referring to the dash site.)

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

[DapperButch]

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

I think a lot of younger folks think that butch-femme is very gender conformist and heteronormative. We do see some of that on this site. It used to be rampant on the other site. (I know there are more sites out there, but I can't keep up. I am old. I am referring to the dash site.)

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

Yes, but also, in my estimation, the bigger fear/risk is the alienation from the non b/f lesbian community.

[alexri]

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

I see that and I agree with you. I also see it with people expecting that trans people aren't true trans if they won't have surgery or fully identify as the opposite gender, or when people question trans people who wind up having same-sex relationships after transitioning. It's frustrating when we want the rest of society not to judge us and then we judge among our own ranks.

[Jett]

I read this most recent exchange several days ago and it just feels itchy... how would an outside person is actually even begin discern this? That someone is really a butch but is identifying as something else because of expectations or peer pressure? I think my thing is, (because it wasn't explained) how and why are we assuming this person is a butch in the first place? Because of how they look? Their behaviors? Just because two things appear similar doesn't mean they are at all... but I think we all know this.

Ok, taking andro here because it's been put forth... I think andro as a personal ID is a complete and legit identity outside of butch and sometimes along with it but I'd say confidently unique from it in the majority of instances. It has some pretty specific features as a "rule" (dually or non-gendered) that aren't a "rule" in butch identity. I dunno, positing that any significant amount of people that identify as andro (or stud/tomboi/trans/etc. on and on) really aren't and are really butches in hiding and this phenomenon would be supposedly common enough to make a dent in the populous of the butch pool I think is a pretty damn big leap and seems slightly arrogant as well ("seems" I absolutely don't think it was intended that way). But what really is bothering me about the whole thing is I also believe it really appears to minimalize legitimicy of those all identities as separate- unique- important- valuble- equal and desired identities on their own and apart from butch (also perhaps taking away from butch also by kind of just throwing everything under the sun in the pot).

Do I think butches are a dying breed? No I don't and I don't think they ever will be. But I do think that a lot of people who have (or would have) identified with "butch" in the past did because it maybe seemed the only or closest option and those particular identities are now finding better ID's/terms (for them)... or even older reclaimed, revamped or renewed ones that more closely and clearly suit them in their own unique path. I'd assume if someone ID's in a certain way that that is what they are and that only a miniscule fraction would NOT identify with their true selves because of what they percieve others to think.

Is it personal to me? Yes and no... yes I identified as a butch for over two decades and I now identify as a tomboi (as in queer tomboi not straight ones as I personally think there's a big difference)... SOLELY because tomboi is for the most part much more specific to me, more specific in appearance, the sex the vast vast majority of tombois/y's personally associate with and most especially the behaviors, like and dislikes... and no it's not personal because really for all intents and purposes at the end of today when I've got my girl under my arm and a movie in the DVD player I could really give two shits about gender theory or what anyone else thinks of what I am... I just am.

[CharmingButch25]

I am very butch and very much alive!!

[Renj3]

I have most times where I feel I should be one way or the other. Now, I'm merely putting a opinion...based of speculation.

Social media is one of the greatest influences. Be it internet or television. For those who are looking to come out of the closet, they look to that as emulation to be more accepted. Usually the case is femme on femme because I hardly EVER see a butch on butch or butch-femme relationship on TV... maybe in the occasional porn or two but not national television.

Growing up, I always felt comfy in guy clothes and in even the mental thought of being LIKE a guy. I know I'm a woman but still, I love feeling masculine. I think I lost my original point.... Oh yeah, Butches themselves aren't a dying breed. I think that thinking outside the paradigm of what a butch is, what they should be, or what makes a person comfy is dying. ....Why can't I ever follow my own train of thought?? Did I answer that question at all?? http://www.onion-club.net/images/avatars/gallery/onion/Onion6.gif

[Glenn]

As long as there is life here on Mother Earth there will always be Butches. Why? Because of masculine and feminine energy. This physical world has always been dualistic by nature. What keeps the show going? Reincarnation and Evolution. In every culture throughout History there were Butches. In my case, I was reborn in a female body due to complex karmic reasons, but never felt feminine. I was a native american warrior who died in battle in my previous life. How do I know this? My mother told me when I learned to talk that I told her this. I wanted native american toys and weapons, always wanted to play war with boys, for years, wore a real native american costume on halloween, also drawn to museum exhibits, historical books, etc., even though I was born into an italian family. Later on, I became a collector.

[EnderD_503]

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

I think a lot of younger folks think that butch-femme is very gender conformist and heteronormative. We do see some of that on this site. It used to be rampant on the other site. (I know there are more sites out there, but I can't keep up. I am old. I am referring to the dash site.)

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

Not really. There are plenty of young butches and femmes. I would say that the typical advocates for this bullshit idea of butch and femme as "gender conformist and heteronormative" are gay men and certain lesbians. And they are typically academics teaching queer theory. I just think that younger butches and femmes aren't seeking out specific butch and femme communities as much as they used to anymore, but just relate as their identities to other growing and transforming communities around them. The only time I've heard that whole "gender conformist" spiel irl has been in queer theory classes led by white gay men or non-b/f lesbians. Some people just continue to want to make their own opinions reality for other people, but that doesn't mean that young queer folks are buying it. The number of young people still claiming femme and butch the queer community is still pretty high, and they aren't exactly words that have been thrown by the way side. People just interact with their own identities in relation to their own communities differently than in past generations. And especially as the queer/trans community continues to recognise its own diversity and self-determination as far as identity to a greater extent than it did in the past.

[LadyRieinAL]

not so much are butches a dying breed but i'm quite sure OS butches are rare everywhere :hk23:

I'm so embarassed to ask, because as long as I have been out, I should know - what is OS Butch? ---- Outstanding?

[LadyRieinAL]

eyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I think I just figured it out OS = old school?

I'm an old school femme, I think.....
I want someone to open my door
I want someone to pump my gas because they don't want my hands to smell like gas and it isn't offensive on their's.
I want someone who appreciates that I like my make-up and girly shoes and I care nothing about tennis shoes.
The other day, I was chatting with someone who I had met a month or so earlier, and she said her ex told her she wasn't butch enough - and when I asked what did her ex mean - she said, she wanted me to pump her gas, cut her grass, take her garbage out - and she said, I ain't your errand boy...
.so at that point, even though I am capable of doing these things, except for cutting the grass, I'll pay someone to do that, I came to the realization that we were going to be really good FRIENDS.
I've never known any different lifestyle, I've had three relationships, two butch and one ftm and the total of years together is longer than most of the people on here are old - 35 years - so in my mind, it never dawned on me that someone who identified as butch would look at doing these things for their girl would consider this to be a bad thing. But it woke me up to the realization of what is and that I shouldn't just assume. <heavy sigh>

[alexri]

eyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I think I just figured it out OS = old school?

I'm an old school femme, I think.....
I want someone to open my door


And as a butch, I totally respect all you want someone to do for you, and that's what I expect/want my roles/jobs to be. And I enjoy doing all that for a femme if it makes her happy. It's done out of love, respect and admiration, or as rituals of the relationship. I do it not because I *have* to but because I *want* to.

In discussions about this w/ other queer friends, some femmes said they didn't want all this because they didn't want to be seen as weaker/lesser, or stuck in 1950's female roles, where the wife just cooked and smiled and looked pretty. I tried to convey that none of these actions are done by a butch to make you feel lesser, not equal, or too weak to handle any of this. And many butches don't do it to carry on hetero roles. It's done as a sign of affection for one's lady. But I don't think some see it that way.

I have heard both extremes from women... that I am not butch enough... and on the other side, sadly from some lesbians, that they might as well just date a guy. I try to explain that we all have our own strengths and weaknesses and sometimes they blur along genderlines.

All the earlier comments about the impact of social media and television make a lot of sense. GLBT visibility is completely different now than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. When the L Word came out, there were so many Shane look-a-likes it was sad. And when Queer As Folk was out, it was all about the club scene for a lot of gay men. It was like straight teens and fashion magazines... "oh this is what I'm supposed to look like." Just MHO.

[Martina]

I live in the real world too, in a place where there is a large queer community, and, although I am old, I run into quite a few young folks. Just one example, I was at the Freight and Salvage in Berkeley and saw what looked to be a b-f couple. I asked if they ID'd as butch and femme, and they said "sometimes" and proceeded to explain that they were wary of the ID's for the reasons I discussed.

I haven't been to a queer theory class in decades.

Not really. There are plenty of young butches and femmes. I would say that the typical advocates for this bullshit idea of butch and femme as "gender conformist and heteronormative" are gay men and certain lesbians. And they are typically academics teaching queer theory. I just think that younger butches and femmes aren't seeking out specific butch and femme communities as much as they used to anymore, but just relate as their identities to other growing and transforming communities around them. The only time I've heard that whole "gender conformist" spiel irl has been in queer theory classes led by white gay men or non-b/f lesbians. Some people just continue to want to make their own opinions reality for other people, but that doesn't mean that young queer folks are buying it. The number of young people still claiming femme and butch the queer community is still pretty high, and they aren't exactly words that have been thrown by the way side. People just interact with their own identities in relation to their own communities differently than in past generations. And especially as the queer/trans community continues to recognise its own diversity and self-determination as far as identity to a greater extent than it did in the past.

[Beloved]

In discussions about this w/ other queer friends, some femmes said they didn't want all this because they didn't want to be seen as weaker/lesser, or stuck in 1950's female roles, where the wife just cooked and smiled and looked pretty. I tried to convey that none of these actions are done by a butch to make you feel lesser, not equal, or too weak to handle any of this. And many butches don't do it to carry on hetero roles. It's done as a sign of affection for one's lady. But I don't think some see it that way.


This is a little off topic but the 1950's housewife thing just made me think of it. I have met men and butches who want a 1950's housewife kinda girl and who (butches/men) want to be the head of the house. I find it rather amusing because not only do they want a housewife but they also want their woman to work outside the home. That's NOT a 1950's housewife. That's a slave. They want the feminine person of the relationship to work double time and make all the sacrifices and then have little power in the relationship. No thank you...

[*Anya*]

I do not believe that butches are a "dying breed" (what a phrase!).

There have always been masculine women and there always will be. There always have been the transgendered. There will always be what the Native Americans call the "two spirited".

Any search engine can bring up images of butches from the time that photography was invented and photographers were able to take pictures!

How someone is born is different than whatever role either society or a cohort thrusts upon us.

We may even chose to have roles! (Some femmes may want to be a 1950's housewife!)

There will always be butches and femmes.

How we may chose to live our lives, is something else entirely.

[SleepyButch]

I would hope that we are not a dying breed. Maybe future generations will decide not to use the term Butch.. I don't know.

What I do know is that I would not want to be anything else then what I am right now. If I had a choice in my next life, I would come back as a Butch who loves femmes. I would not want it to be any other way.

[Kobi]

This is a little off topic but the 1950's housewife thing just made me think of it. I have met men and butches who want a 1950's housewife kinda girl and who (butches/men) want to be the head of the house. I find it rather amusing because not only do they want a housewife but they also want their woman to work outside the home. That's NOT a 1950's housewife. That's a slave. They want the feminine person of the relationship to work double time and make all the sacrifices and then have little power in the relationship. No thank you...


I think it helps, maybe, to not confuse id's with personal preferences and basic people stuff.

I have been with femmes who want me to be the head of the house, who wanted to be June Cleaver, who did not want to work outside the home, who were offended if I did a load of laundry or god forbid cooked myself lunch. Didnt work well for me. Does work for others.

People like and want different stuff. Id's do not.

As a female id, feminist butch, I like women who have goals for themselves, personally and professionally, who are looking for a partner to share the load, who strive to develop themselves in ways that help them to refine who they are.

The outside stuff may catch my eye but its the person inside who will hold my attention and gain my respect.

[Beloved]

I have been with femmes who want me to be the head of the house, who wanted to be June Cleaver, who did not want to work outside the home, who were offended if I did a load of laundry or god forbid cooked myself lunch. Didnt work well for me. Does work for others.




I don't think you are understanding my point. It's fine if you want a 1950's housewife that does NOT work outside the home. My complaint is wanting a 1950's housewife AND expect her to work outside the home. That is my complaint. I think it's unfair to try to have it both ways.

If it works for somebody, I guess that's alright. I would feel taken advantage of, personally.

[Blaze]

I personally don't think butches are a dying breed, now some say we may become extinct... We are just becoming a back burner house hold name because of all the other newer word terms usage that the younger generations are choosing to express their self being as.
I am a proud butch, proud of what the generation before me forged forward to give me freedoms to do, proud for being able to continue their hard grueling torment that society induced on them and us. I had someone ask me the other day, why is it that the word butch for a man more accepted then for a woman. She felt that butch woman should just be known as Dykes. That kind of made me feel sad, to think that the heterosexual community gives the credit to the men more, and are thinking that butch woman should just keep dyke as a prize possession trophy word.
This is why I am even more proud of being a Butch. It is still a cause worth standing for.

I have more to say, but will be back later!

[KayCee]

all I can say is : I hope not!

[Kobi]

I don't think you are understanding my point. It's fine if you want a 1950's housewife that does NOT work outside the home. My complaint is wanting a 1950's housewife AND expect her to work outside the home. That is my complaint. I think it's unfair to try to have it both ways.

If it works for somebody, I guess that's alright. I would feel taken advantage of, personally.


I think I understood you well. You are not someone who would want to be in a relationship where you were expected to both June Cleaver AND work outside of the home. I may not have connected the dots the right way tho in my response.

The point was "people" not "ids" have certain preferences, wants, desires, ideals, expectations etc when it comes to relationships. Different stuff works for different people. Some stuff that works for others would drive me absolutely nuts. Some things I might want might make others feel unuseful or whatever.

Sometimes, I think we come to believe, in this case, that butches are a dying breed, cuz we cant find that person who compliments what we, personally, are looking for. We might find "the look" but we have trouble finding "the right person".

[rustedrims]

I have been reading in here for a while.
I dont think so much that we are a dying breed,I think it is a ID issue.As the young ones step up and come out there are different names/titles/ID's.Like it was mentioned a few times.We are still here but maybe not as visable.
I think Old School best describes me as i am reading.
I like to cut the grass and take out the garbage.I like to tear rooms apart and put them back together different than what they were.I would rather build shelves in the garage than buy them.I use to send my "x" to work in my truck and take her car to work to fill the gas tank up.I also payed.I kept her car clean and waxed,check the oil and even change it.I even go out in the garage and start her car to warm it up in my socks.I would even lay on her side of the bed to get it warm for her.This is the best one of all,i would get up first to sit on the toilet to get that warm for her to.I did it all and more.She took advantage of it.

I like all the make up and cutsie skirts and those killer heels.Pretty Femme hands should never be pumping gas.Should be a law about that.I will step up and do anything to keep those beautiful finger nails from chipping.I Love the Femmes and everything that goes with them.Like i said i guess that makes me OSButch.

[LeftWriteFemme]

iSlszgxYwHk

[LadyRieinAL]

I've never expected anyone to pump my gas, or take the garbage out, it is just the way it has always been, in my relationships.
I've always worked, I've always done what ever it took to make my relationship work, I've always given and pulled my fair shair.
Everyone I've ever been with has always been stronger than I am, they have to be, to open my mayonaise jars.
In gardening, which I love to do, my partner has always been the one to dig the holes and I plant and cover it with the dirt. Normally around my house in the past, if I cook, my partner washes the dishes.
I've never know anything other than being a girl - I don't even own a pair of tennis shoes - I refuse to change the oil on my car, but I don't expect my butch to do that, I'll pay someone, just as I would pay someone to cut the grass. But you know what, all that is done is always done out of co-creating a better relationship, it has nothing to do with expecting someone to do certain chores. I just know there are certain things that a Butch is better equipped to do. And I am appreciative!

[rustedrims]

I didnt mean to offend you in anyway.I apologize if i did.
That stuff i mentioned is automatic to me.I just do that stuff because i get alot of satisfaction out of pleasing my partner.I want her happy.The biggest thing is that i am such a tightwad.If there is anything i can do for myself or for you free i will attempt it.I am not that stuborn to realize if i cant do something i will get help.I also ask for directions.{eventually}.

I appreciate Femmes and all the sparklie stuff that goes with them.
I love Femmes!!

[dykeumentary]

Do you think the L wording of the world lowered the Butch count?


Good morning! This is a really interesting question to me today because I attended the Philadelphia qFest's event yesterday, featuring Rose Troche, who directed "Go Fish" as well as "The L Word".
http://www.qfest.com/film-details.cfm?c=266&id=10669

I know we've had good discussions on this site about media representation of Butch-Femme community, should we start a fresh thread about it? I'm curious about your thoughts. Its a fascinating question- Does less media representation make for less butches/Femmes? Or are we too small a "market" to drive development of media about us? Even at this queer film fest, it was slim pickings.

[Kobi]

Good morning! This is a really interesting question to me today because I attended the Philadelphia qFest's event yesterday, featuring Rose Troche, who directed "Go Fish" as well as "The L Word".
http://www.qfest.com/film-details.cfm?c=266&id=10669

I know we've had good discussions on this site about media representation of Butch-Femme community, should we start a fresh thread about it? I'm curious about your thoughts. Its a fascinating question- Does less media representation make for less butches/Femmes? Or are we too small a "market" to drive development of media about us? Even at this queer film fest, it was slim pickings.


Im not sure I am understanding you here.

"Does less media representation make for less butches/femmes?" Are you suggesting there is a cause and effect between the media and people becoming butch/femme? Or are you saying the media could bring light to the sometimes invisible aspects of the butch/femme community? Or am I totally missing the point?

"Even at this queer film fest, it was slim pickings." Does this mean there was not as much of a visible presence of butch/femme in the way you expect it to look? Or, does it mean it was not well attended? Or, does it mean there was no one you gave thought to hitting on? LOL. Couldnt resist that one.

[LeftWriteFemme]

Good morning! This is a really interesting question to me today because I attended the Philadelphia qFest's event yesterday, featuring Rose Troche, who directed "Go Fish" as well as "The L Word".
http://www.qfest.com/film-details.cfm?c=266&id=10669

I know we've had good discussions on this site about media representation of Butch-Femme community, should we start a fresh thread about it? I'm curious about your thoughts. Its a fascinating question- Does less media representation make for less butches/Femmes? Or are we too small a "market" to drive development of media about us? Even at this queer film fest, it was slim pickings.


Im not sure I am understanding you here.

"Does less media representation make for less butches/femmes?" Are you suggesting there is a cause and effect between the media and people becoming butch/femme? Or are you saying the media could bring light to the sometimes invisible aspects of the butch/femme community? Or am I totally missing the point?

"Even at this queer film fest, it was slim pickings." Does this mean there was not as much of a visible presence of butch/femme in the way you expect it to look? Or, does it mean it was not well attended? Or, does it mean there was no one you gave thought to hitting on? LOL. Couldnt resist that one.




So my next question is do you think films like Pariah will encourage young Butches to come out?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l2zhA1a0E64/T2Yep7yyoiI/AAAAAAAABy8/NDLAKgmjAGw/s1600/Pariah%2Bgreen.jpg

Vlc0SZYnoMc

[The_Lady_Snow]

LeftWriteFemne brought up a point that is being missed, cultural terms and ID's.

Butches are EVERYWHERE! They may just have another word/words to describe them.


Machas

Studs

Aggressives

Tombois

There's a plethora of sexy out there, you sometimes have to dig a lil deeper;)

[*Anya*]

LeftWriteFemne brought up a point that is being missed, cultural terms and ID's.

Butches are EVERYWHERE! They may just have another word/words to describe them.


Machas

Studs

Aggressives

Tombois

There's a plethora of sexy out there, you sometimes have to dig a lil deeper;)

This point was kind of teasing in the back of my mind, thanks Snow!

All you need to do is to go on YouTube and take a look at the many, many channels started by young butches that may simply have another name for their identity.

There always have been butches and femmes and there always will be butches and femmes!

I will go into geek mode here, thanks to the last episode of BSG (that is Battlestar Galactica, for those that did not watch the outstanding SciFy channel series-sorry for the digression):

“All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again".

Butches have not and will not be going anywhere but may indeed evolve, by choice, over time.

[Turtle]

The name of this thread still pisses me off...

[rustedrims]

The name of this thread still pisses me off...

What else would you call it to mean the same thing ?

[Turtle]

"Where and How Do You See Butches" or possibly "Butch Sightings"

[arcstriker]

:|A dying breed?

Let me see, (touching my human self in the arms and legs, breathing deeply in my lungs...exhale..slowly)....and to steal from monty python I declare myself..."Not dead yet"

I think a lot depends on where you live. Here in the cold northern State of CT there are a lot of butchs...young and old and in between. There are a lot of B/F couples in various age groups that are raising up their children and step-children. I see them downtown, in the stores, at the town fair and driving down the streets. As a far as can see we are very visible.

Turtle..Butch Sightings..hummm now thats a great title...I invision in my mind a bunch of femmes packed in a convoy of Land Rovers creening the country side... armed with cameras, binoculars, and picnic baskets of deli sandwichs to lure us butchs out of our natural habitat for a rare photo shoot of the elusive butch on the streets.


I like it!


I think someone here mentioned the L word...I think the bit that was done with Kit and Ivan was well done...as for anyone being casted as a Butch on the streets, Hollywood in general fails us....but then again, it is my thought that Hollywood wants to present only what is appealing to the straight world not to my world or life experience. Its not a money maker and if portrayed acurately it will upset the gentle order of the world. and ..GOD we can't have that!

I even look at our subscription of Curve and there is nothing that remotely presents a butch as a butch on the streets! It trys to soften things up and to me its a sell out!

[morningstar55]

Yes.... they must b a dying breed, cuz must b y am still single . "sigh""

[alexri]

"Butch Sightings"



This is all in good fun-- I'm picturing me walking on a trail somewhere... femmes in the distance with binoculars and camouflage... setting a trap...

[arcstriker]

Go for it my brother!:pirate-steer:

[Vivacious1]

I think that whether butches are a dying breed really is a relative question, it depends on who you ask and what they consider butch!
As for myself, Old School Butches seem to be far and few between. I have very definitive ideas of what my butch is made of. What frustrates me is what I look for and what some "butches" portray themselves as are two very different things. I believe with every ounce of me, it has to come natural. I can tell if it doesn't. I have witnessed the true butch/femme dynamic and it is beautiful, it flows effortlessly and lines are clear. So... I guess in essence, for me it seems as if my ideals are not dying but hidden?

[Sun]

My take on this is that the Butch is very much an alive breed and everywhere.

It seems that younger generations may be rejecting some labels or perhaps what they consider older labels. For me I was born Butch and before I began a really intense inner journey to sort through my gender identity I was content with using the term Butch all the time. We all begin somewhere, some of us migrate and some stay at home. There is a lot of pride in how we own
Our identities as it should be. Sometimes I found myself over thinking all of this.

One thing that remains is that the Butch Femme dynamic no matter what path we take, is amazing, unique, beautiful and ours.

[~ocean]

My take on this is that the Butch is very much an alive breed and everywhere.

It seems that younger generations may be rejecting some labels or perhaps what they consider older labels. For me I was born Butch and before I began a really intense inner journey to sort through my gender identity I was content with using the term Butch all the time. We all begin somewhere, some of us migrate and some stay at home. There is a lot of pride in how we own
Our identities as it should be. Sometimes I found myself over thinking all of this.

One thing that remains is that the Butch Femme dynamic no matter what path we take, is amazing, unique, beautiful and ours.



dayummmm such a seductive way of explaining what is sooo natural :) ty~

[Sun]

dayummmm such a seductive way of explaining what is sooo natural :) ty~

Thank you Ocean.

[Two-spirit]

My take on this is that the Butch is very much an alive breed and everywhere.

It seems that younger generations may be rejecting some labels or perhaps what they consider older labels. For me I was born Butch and before I began a really intense inner journey to sort through my gender identity I was content with using the term Butch all the time. We all begin somewhere, some of us migrate and some stay at home. There is a lot of pride in how we own
Our identities as it should be. Sometimes I found myself over thinking all of this.

One thing that remains is that the Butch Femme dynamic no matter what path we take, is amazing, unique, beautiful and ours.



Smiles,

Well said..for me I'm a two-spirit and I like being called a warrior..it describes my nationality,butchness,and my heritage...

[DanieClarke]

nope i became butch after too many cis males came after me

now they all leave me alone :)

[BstlMyhart]

No Ma'am...I'll still alive and well!

[~ocean]

No Ma'am...I'll still alive and well!

Thank God for that (((( bestill ))))

[StoneOne]

alive and well
does one complicate this by identifies as a StoneButch?

[Leigh]

StoneOne ~ personally I don't think it complicates anything, I believe firmly that you can be both a stone butch and still be someone that us femmes can melt over ;)

[DapperButch]

alive and well
does one complicate this by identifies as a StoneButch?

Why would it? :confused: A stone butch/StoneButch is still a butch, right?

[Butchone1969]

2Q7IzwUa_kI&feature=relmfu

[easygoingfemme]

Oh Ivan Coyote, Butchone1969 thank you for sharing. That spoke both worlds so well.

[StoneOne]

2Q7IzwUa_kI&feature=relmfu

Oh Ivan Coyote, Butchone1969 thank you for sharing. That spoke both worlds so well.

bravo bravo beautiful this affected me in a way I thought impossible

[Rivkeh]

2Q7IzwUa_kI&feature=relmfu

Thankyou for posting this :)

[lusciouskiwi]

2Q7IzwUa_kI&feature=relmfu

OMG thank you thank you thank you Butchone for posting this. I have to go and get a tissue now.

Thank you. If only Handsome was here so I could nibble on her yummy butch self. :eatinghersheybar:

[Nomad]

nope i became butch after too many cis males came after me

now they all leave me alone :)


this makes me go :blink: and :twitch:

but i'm late to the party so i cant ask any of the questions that are revolving in my brain. probably a good thing as several of them would have to have the snark peeled off of them in order to be considered polite.

[*Anya*]

OMG thank you thank you thank you Butchone for posting this. I have to go and get a tissue now.

Thank you. If only Handsome was here so I could nibble on her yummy butch self. :eatinghersheybar:


I love this so much. I have seen it several times and each time it makes me teary.

What I appreciate so very much about the Planet encompasses so many things!

Including, the growing self-acceptance of my own femme persona and essence of being, acceptance of my intense desire for butches, joy at knowing that this desire is OK and right for me, understanding of the butch experience and the courage it takes to walk through the world exactly as who and what you are (paraphrasing this particular part of the essay brigid posted).

Above all: that each of us, butch and femme, are swans, that we need each other and that we belong together.

[dykeumentary]

(this post was more appropriate in the "gendering the young" thread)

[Duchess]

I hope Butches aren't a dying breed. Even though I'm not searching, my heart and my mind are open to finding the right one for me.:hangloose:


Duchess

[FemmeBibliophile]

I have to agree... I really hope they aren't a dying breed. I think that it depends on the location at this point. Where I am is mostly femmes... I'll never find a date in my own town.

[Duchess]

I know what you mean FB. I see loads of Femmes and Andro folks and my attraction just doesn't go there.:)

[starryeyes]

I have me a damn good one, so no shortage in my life :)

[Raven.]

Same as in Sydney Aus. Lots of us here too.. Hi everyone.. New here.

[LadyRieinAL]

nope, not from what I've been reading on these post - Butches - Stone - or otherwise, very much alive - um ummmmmm ummmmmmmm :hk2:

[asphaltcowboi]

naw were all out here but we have been put on the friends list

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu137/ASPHALTCOWBOI/guytip.jpg

[Angeltoes]

2Q7IzwUa_kI&feature=relmfu
Ivan :awww:
Sometimes it seems that way, but maybe that's because the media focus is mainly on the femme/femme dynamic. I sure hope butches are sticking around...

[Duchess]

In my opinion, the only thing that's dying are all of the rules that were used to define a Butch's life.

You have to be a top
You have to be with a Femme
You have to be head of household
You can't bear children
Etc.,etc.......
Makes me tired just thinking about it. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting there's something wrong with the ideas I've listed nor am I suggesting that all Butches have felt the pressure to uphold a certain idea of what it means to be Butch. However, I have witnessed the torment in friends and a partner.

Cheers to living the life that truly makes you happy!!!(f)


Duchess

[Sunny]

I am a Butch in a non-Femme area. I get double takes from women here all the time. They look at me thinking I am a guy. I am sure that if I encountered a Femme I would not know unless she flirted with me. Then again one is never really sure.
I had a woman come in to the store to pick out a watch and she kept asking me which one I liked. LOL She picked the one I said I liked and then told the cashier that I helped her pick out the watch. She had strong eye contact. I think she was just a straight woman liking my energy. Oh well, the life of a Butch.

[asphaltcowboi]

I am a Butch in a non-Femme area. I get double takes from women here all the time. They look at me thinking I am a guy. I am sure that if I encountered a Femme I would not know unless she flirted with me. Then again one is never really sure.
I had a woman come in to the store to pick out a watch and she kept asking me which one I liked. LOL She picked the one I said I liked and then told the cashier that I helped her pick out the watch. She had strong eye contact. I think she was just a straight woman liking my energy. Oh well, the life of a Butch.
i hear ya on that.. makes you wonder of shes a femme flirting with you, or if shes a strait woman mistaken you for a guy.. then you wonder maybe shes just a nice person to everyone? should you take the chance and ask her out? if shes a femme it might go well. if shes a straight woman thinking your a guy you get to spend the eve watchung her check out guys that come in and hope she doesnt try to feel you up! if she just a nice person to everyone youll prob have a nice date hearing about her high school sweet heart her mom her sis an that sort of thing.. hmm really want to take that chance? guess a dates a date!

[Kobi]

In my opinion, the only thing that's dying are all of the rules that were used to define a Butch's life.

You have to be a top
You have to be with a Femme
You have to be head of household
You can't bear children
Etc.,etc.......
Makes me tired just thinking about it. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting there's something wrong with the ideas I've listed nor am I suggesting that all Butches have felt the pressure to uphold a certain idea of what it means to be Butch. However, I have witnessed the torment in friends and a partner.

Cheers to living the life that truly makes you happy!!!(f)


Duchess




Thank you for saying this.

Sometimes it feels we are a dying breed when, in reality, we are just morphing into ourselves, not adhering to preconceived notions or expectations, and doing experimenting of our own.

Defining oneself rather than being defined is very liberating and satisfying. Albeit, a bit confusing to some.

[WolfyOne]

We are truly not a dying breed
We come in different sizes, shapes, colors, but we are out there

I may not want to work on cars anymore at my age, but I will work a garden and mow a lawn for a partner, of course, I may want something in return, like an ice cold beer or iced tea or bottled water.

What I think is that with all the stereotyping, I'll use me, with my long hair, may or may not be seen as butch by some, others may embrace it. Seems for some reason some femmes can't see the butch and some butches cannot recognize the femme.

Wolfy, who would enjoy someone that sees me as I am :)

[Tommi]

We are truly not a dying breed
We come in different sizes, shapes, colors, but we are out there

I may not want to work on cars anymore at my age, but I will work a garden and mow a lawn for a partner, of course, I may want something in return, like an ice cold beer or iced tea or bottled water.

What I think is that with all the stereotyping, I'll use me, with my long hair, may or may not be seen as butch by some, others may embrace it. Seems for some reason some femmes can't see the butch and some butches cannot recognize the femme.

Wolfy, who would enjoy someone that sees me as I am :)

I love your long hair. I love you..., and when the right femme comes along, I'll screen her for my Brudder, a Butch who is comfortable in being just who you are. :phonegab::praying: WolfyOne, No pretenses, just a strong moral character, and ...a what character at that.

:mohawk:

You promised to do the same for me..:phonegab::phonegab:

[WolfyOne]

I love your long hair. I love you..., and when the right femme comes along, I'll screen her for my Brudder, a Butch who is comfortable in being just who you are. :phonegab::praying: WolfyOne, No pretenses, just a strong moral character, and ...a what character at that.

:mohawk:

You promised to do the same for me..:phonegab::phonegab:


My biggest bromance and advocate is you...my bestest brudder in the world.
Thank you for such kind words about me as you know, I love you back.

There is nothing in this world I would not do for you, short of killing anyone.

Sitting here, missing my bestie :)

[GraffitiBoi]

i hear ya on that.. makes you wonder of shes a femme flirting with you, or if shes a strait woman mistaken you for a guy.. then you wonder maybe shes just a nice person to everyone? should you take the chance and ask her out? if shes a femme it might go well. if shes a straight woman thinking your a guy you get to spend the eve watchung her check out guys that come in and hope she doesnt try to feel you up! if she just a nice person to everyone youll prob have a nice date hearing about her high school sweet heart her mom her sis an that sort of thing.. hmm really want to take that chance? guess a dates a date!

Been there. Done that. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it just becomes a story to share and laugh about with my brothers around the bonfire! LOL

[SelfMadeMan]

I have so many wonderful, amazing Butch friends that I adore, and I can assure you, they are NOT a dying breed!!! Butches have such a long, rich history, and are so important to the GLBT community, and I know I sure don't want to see that tossed by the wayside. I *hope* what's dying are the stereotypes and incorrect propaganda - that Butches all want to be FTM, and that all FTMs are ex-Butches... FTM and Butch are two different identities, and it makes me sad how much animosity there is between the two. So PLEASE, to all the Butches out there, don't feel like you aren't super important to this community, and don't feel unappreciated, because I KNOW I'm not the only one who loves and supports you!! (Plus Butches are hot)

[Graham]

I hope not....I feel pretty alive!:vigil:

[fever]

i hear ya on that.. makes you wonder of shes a femme flirting with you, or if shes a strait woman mistaken you for a guy.. then you wonder maybe shes just a nice person to everyone? should you take the chance and ask her out? if shes a femme it might go well. if shes a straight woman thinking your a guy you get to spend the eve watchung her check out guys that come in and hope she doesnt try to feel you up! if she just a nice person to everyone youll prob have a nice date hearing about her high school sweet heart her mom her sis an that sort of thing.. hmm really want to take that chance? guess a dates a date!

Well now, if a lovely femme smiles at you in Raleys or Trader Joes in N. Cal, it could be me!!!! So, please say hello. Lol

Candice the travelling femme

[Sun]

Just my .02 worth on this topic. I previously posted a longer comment on this issue.

The words "dying" and "Butch" in the same sentence make me uncomfortable first of all. I love my Butch friends dearly. Lots of women are interested in Butch folks. Trust me on this, I hear it all the time.

My experience is that there is no way to tell if a woman identifies as Femme, bi, lesbian..whatever and who knows if she is married, single, poly, looking..you know what? We over process this stuff. If a woman is making eye contact with you she is interested in something. Take a chance and talk to her. Reach out. It could be the best choice that you ever make.

[Kobi]

The words "dying" and "Butch" in the same sentence make me uncomfortable first of all.



I hear you on this part Sun. Everytime this thread is resurrected, my mind goes weird places like:

~who do we petition to have "butches" put on the endangered species lists?

~I see commercials.....similar to the ones where polar bears are trying to gingerly make their way across globally warmed pieces of thinning, fragile ice.....stranded butches searching for stable ground, roaming the world, in a seemingly endless solitary quest.......

~the creation of a non-profit Save A Butch Foundation where in exchange for a donation, you adopt a butch, get photos and letters to keep you informed on how your butch is alive, well and thriving. Also comes with address labels.

~maybe a butch gps system? We get chipped, they download the app, instant visibility and access! Hmm. Or instant stalkerism. I might need to rethink this one.

~"butches as a dying breed" is really the new Tea Party propaganda campaign to undermine gender variance for the benefit of white men with penises. This new campaign will run parallel with their current quest to remake women into barefoot, pregnant, dependent, subservient beings. Okay that was just a slanted reminder to get out and VOTE tomorrow.

~we dont have to worry about butches becoming a dying breed even if we are evolving. If there is ever a shortage, I'm sure ConAgra will find a way to make a large variety of shelf-stable, frozen, and refrigerated reconstituted/re-engineered butch.

[Graham]

I hear you on this part Sun. Everytime this thread is resurrected, my mind goes weird places like:

~who do we petition to have "butches" put on the endangered species lists?

~I see commercials.....similar to the ones where polar bears are trying to gingerly make their way across globally warmed pieces of thinning, fragile ice.....stranded butches searching for stable ground, roaming the world, in a seemingly endless solitary quest.......

~the creation of a non-profit Save A Butch Foundation where in exchange for a donation, you adopt a butch, get photos and letters to keep you informed on how your butch is alive, well and thriving. Also comes with address labels.

~maybe a butch gps system? We get chipped, they download the app, instant visibility and access! Hmm. Or instant stalkerism. I might need to rethink this one.

~"butches as a dying breed" is really the new Tea Party propaganda campaign to undermine gender variance for the benefit of white men with penises. This new campaign will run parallel with their current quest to remake women into barefoot, pregnant, dependent, subservient beings. Okay that was just a slanted reminder to get out and VOTE tomorrow.

~we dont have to worry about butches becoming a dying breed even if we are evolving. If there is ever a shortage, I'm sure ConAgra will find a way to make a large variety of shelf-stable, frozen, and refrigerated reconstituted/re-engineered butch.



SAVE THE BUTCHES!!!!

[Elijah]

I wonder what prompts this question?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am certainly not dead, nor am I moving to change My ID.


~Elijah

[Sun]

I hear you on this part Sun. Everytime this thread is resurrected, my mind goes weird places like:

~who do we petition to have "butches" put on the endangered species lists?

~I see commercials.....similar to the ones where polar bears are trying to gingerly make their way across globally warmed pieces of thinning, fragile ice.....stranded butches searching for stable ground, roaming the world, in a seemingly endless solitary quest.......

~the creation of a non-profit Save A Butch Foundation where in exchange for a donation, you adopt a butch, get photos and letters to keep you informed on how your butch is alive, well and thriving. Also comes with address labels.

~maybe a butch gps system? We get chipped, they download the app, instant visibility and access! Hmm. Or instant stalkerism. I might need to rethink this one.

~"butches as a dying breed" is really the new Tea Party propaganda campaign to undermine gender variance for the benefit of white men with penises. This new campaign will run parallel with their current quest to remake women into barefoot, pregnant, dependent, subservient beings. Okay that was just a slanted reminder to get out and VOTE tomorrow.

~we dont have to worry about butches becoming a dying breed even if we are evolving. If there is ever a shortage, I'm sure ConAgra will find a way to make a large variety of shelf-stable, frozen, and refrigerated reconstituted/re-engineered butch.



OMG Kobi this cracked me up! Thank you, I needed a good laugh.

There is nothing quite so valuable to me as a great sense of humor.
Still lmao...

[Girl_On_Fire]

This is a great thread topic. I had often wondered the same thing. For years I used to say that "there are only two butches in Connecticut and they're with each other". Not that there would be anything wrong with that but still...:(

[Tye]

I agree with Elijah, we are still here! Tye

[Angeltoes]

Based on what I've read, 12% of the population is gay..maybe that's wrong, but based on that say half of that is lesbian and we're talking about 6% of population. How much of that percentage even ascribes to the butch/femme dynamic...? Even if you say half, that's 3%, half femme and half butch, so 1.5% of the population is butch...in America? How many of those butches live in Boise, Idaho?

*crickets* Not very many.

Maybe the lesbian population is larger than that, but it seems to me that most women are looking for someone to join them and their man in a threeway. On this site we have lots of dreamy people, but in Boise I don't see butches looking for femmes for romance and commitment.

[Kelt]

~maybe a butch gps system? We get chipped, they download the app, instant visibility and access! Hmm. Or instant stalkerism. I might need to rethink this one.


I vote we reverse engineer this just a little. I don't know about you, but 'visible' isn't much of a problem here. How about we chip the femmes so we can find them?

The techie in me reeally wants this app!

and I'm a super polite stalker...

:cheesy:

[Sun]

Based on what I've read, 12% of the population is gay..maybe that's wrong, but based on that say half of that is lesbian and we're talking about 6% of population. How much of that percentage even ascribes to the butch/femme dynamic...? Even if you say half, that's 3%, half femme and half butch, so 1.5% of the population is butch...in America? How many of those butches live in Boise, Idaho?

*crickets* Not very many.

Maybe the lesbian population is larger than that, but it seems to me that most women are looking for someone to join them and their man in a threeway. On this site we have lots of dreamy people, but in Boise I don't see butches looking for femmes for romance and commitment.

You are right, the Butch Femme world can appear to be very small. Even in some urban area's the number of people who "get" the dynamic can be few and far between.

I want to speak to your comment on people looking for romance and a commitment. My experience is that the "right" person can be anywhere. You will hear me tell friends to stay open to meeting someone who they have a spark with and not to let location stand in the way. Sure, some people think that is just crazy but if someone is serious, and really wants to get to know you, they will move heaven and earth to do so.

There are many people that have done just that. Some folks are not tied to location and can relocate to pursue a relationship if it seems like the right thing to do. Life is short and we do not always get the chance to meet someone wonderful in our backyard. Sometimes it requires moving 3,000 miles away and starting over. That is what risk is all about and in matters of romance and commitment, risk is a given.

So please do not lose hope that someone is out there for you. The wonderful thing about this community is, as you say, there are dreamy people here who have already taken a risk just by being here and letting us see a little bit of who they are.

The numbers are just numbers. You have a lot more than numbers all around you.

[cinnamongrrl]

I vote we reverse engineer this just a little. I don't know about you, but 'visible' isn't much of a problem here. How about we chip the femmes so we can find them?

The techie in me reeally wants this app!

and I'm a super polite stalker...

:cheesy:

I think it would be fun to carry balloons with our vital information on them...are we single...what are we looking for...interests/hobbies....etc.... :)

[Allison W]

Based on what I've read, 12% of the population is gay..maybe that's wrong, but based on that say half of that is lesbian and we're talking about 6% of population. How much of that percentage even ascribes to the butch/femme dynamic...? Even if you say half, that's 3%, half femme and half butch, so 1.5% of the population is butch...in America? How many of those butches live in Boise, Idaho?

*crickets* Not very many.

Maybe the lesbian population is larger than that, but it seems to me that most women are looking for someone to join them and their man in a threeway. On this site we have lots of dreamy people, but in Boise I don't see butches looking for femmes for romance and commitment.

Really? I thought it was actually less than 10%, but perhaps I'm the one who's wrong--I've been wrong before. (If straight/bi butch women count--big "if"--then your final result might increase a tiny little bit, but something tells me they aren't super-common either and are also not the ones looking for a third for a three-way.)

[Duchess]

I Wrote A Good Omelet


I wrote a good omelet...and ate
a hot poem... after loving you

Buttoned my car...and drove my
coat home...in the rain...
after loving you


I goed on red...and stopped on
green...floating somewhere in between...
being here and being there...
after loving you


I rolled my bed...turned down
my hair...slightly
confused but...I don't care...


Laid out my teeth...and gargled my
gown...then I stood
...and laid me down...


To sleep...
after loving you

Written by Nikki Giovanni

[Allison W]

...also in response to Angeltoes' post (sorry I didn't notice this in time to include it in my last reply):

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=678510&postcount=1

Props to Kobi for that post there.

[Sachita]

Based on what I've read, 12% of the population is gay..maybe that's wrong, but based on that say half of that is lesbian and we're talking about 6% of population. How much of that percentage even ascribes to the butch/femme dynamic...? Even if you say half, that's 3%, half femme and half butch, so 1.5% of the population is butch...in America? How many of those butches live in Boise, Idaho?

*crickets* Not very many.

Maybe the lesbian population is larger than that, but it seems to me that most women are looking for someone to join them and their man in a threeway. On this site we have lots of dreamy people, but in Boise I don't see butches looking for femmes for romance and commitment.

Thats 12% accounted for.

[*Anya*]

Based on what I've read, 12% of the population is gay..maybe that's wrong, but based on that say half of that is lesbian and we're talking about 6% of population. How much of that percentage even ascribes to the butch/femme dynamic...? Even if you say half, that's 3%, half femme and half butch, so 1.5% of the population is butch...in America? How many of those butches live in Boise, Idaho?

*crickets* Not very many.


Maybe the lesbian population is larger than that, but it seems to me that most women are looking for someone to join them and their man in a threeway.

On this site we have lots of dreamy people, but in Boise I don't see butches looking for femmes for romance and commitment.

Before I jump to any conclusions, I will give you the benefit of the doubt: did you just pack a couple of thoughts in one sentence?

I am referring to: "Maybe the lesbian population is larger than that, but it seems to me that most women are looking for someone to join them and their man in a threeway".

I am figuring you didn't mean lesbians were looking to join a straight couple in a three-way?

In regards to the scarcity of butches, I think that we need to get more creative in finding each other, since they don't generally knock on your door ( unless you invite them over).

Butches will never be a dying breed and neither will femmes; we are the other half of each other in this yin/yang dynamic that our souls need!

[Kobi]

I vote we reverse engineer this just a little. I don't know about you, but 'visible' isn't much of a problem here. How about we chip the femmes so we can find them?

The techie in me reeally wants this app!

and I'm a super polite stalker...

:cheesy:


Hmmm. I suppose you want a special touch pad configuration femme finding device for the kayak stimulator too?

Ok it still tickles me that I misread kayak simulator as kayak stimulator. :jester:

I am heading out into the 66 mph wind gusts. Figuring I should be blown to Boise by 11:15 am est. Please have the coffee ready....cream and sugar. ;)

[ScandalAndy]

I'm kind of torn on this topic.

On one hand, I am overjoyed and proud that so many self-identified butches are speaking up and saying "I'm here! I'm me! and I'm proud!" This is fantastic, encouraging, and all kinds of wonderful for a femme like me.

On the other hand, I'm super bummed because, while I see that there are butches around, I don't see any around me geographically and have yet to find someone who identifies as butch/masculine that is interested in dating me.

Maybe there are just other intersections going on that I don't know about, like age, body type, religion, etc. It's quite possible I'm just not anyone's cup of tea around here.

No matter the reason for my own searching, I'm glad the thread is here and there's so much discussion going on around it. Not being able to see those we are looking for often leads to the question "are they gone?". It makes sense we'd go looking in the most likely place, then: A forum with butches. So now where do we look in our daily lives?

[Angeltoes]

Before I jump to any conclusions, I will give you the benefit of the doubt: did you just pack a couple of thoughts in one sentence?

I am referring to: "Maybe the lesbian population is larger than that, but it seems to me that most women are looking for someone to join them and their man in a threeway".

I am figuring you didn't mean lesbians were looking to join a straight couple in a three-way?

In regards to the scarcity of butches, I think that we need to get more creative in finding each other, since they don't generally knock on your door ( unless you invite them over).

Butches will never be a dying breed and neither will femmes; we are the other half of each other in this yin/yang dynamic that our souls need!

Yeah, I probably didn't make a lot of sense. That post came from a moment when I was feeling pretty down and not thinking clearly. Feel free to disregard the whole thing. To clarify, I am not saying lesbians are looking to join straight couples.

[Dub]

For me, I didn't claim the identity of Butch until I was 40 years old and that's mostly because of the idea that I didn't want to be labeled, and therefore, stereotyped. It wasn't until I attended Butch Voices in 2010 where I learned about some of our history and finally felt like there are others out there whom I could relate to that I proudly embraced the Butch identity.

Where I am in the US (the Pacific Northwest), it seems as thought the younger generation would rather define themselves as Genderqueer these days. I wonder, though, if they knew more about our history whether they would feel the same as I and claim that identity as part of themselves.

Growing up, I didn't have any Butch role models so finding them later in life helped me find that part of me. Does that make sense?

So, what I'm trying to get at is, perhaps there are Butches out there who just haven't come to yet claim their identity. At least that's what I'd like to believe rather then the think about us dying away.

[Femminator]

I was pretty darn happy to see several baby butches at the new coffee shop in the library by my house. One is half owner with her father, she is maybe 24or so. I don't believe that Butch is dying, I just think that the younger gen does not use that term much anymore. Kinda like the new 'Steampunk' dressing of the 00's, is actually the old New Wave dressing of the 80's . Same thing, different word.

[laruss]

I was pretty darn happy to see several baby butches at the new coffee shop in the library by my house. One is half owner with her father, she is maybe 24or so. I don't believe that Butch is dying, I just think that the younger gen does not use that term much anymore. Kinda like the new 'Steampunk' dressing of the 00's, is actually the old New Wave dressing of the 80's . Same thing, different word.

I think it might also be cultural. I was talking to a Butch friend at home and she does not identify as Butch, she identifies as Dyke. She has been a part of the Community in my home town for over 20 years and said that Butch is not a common term. I was surprised at this as I have not been a part of that community for long, but I have been a part of many others in different areas of the country and Butch is a term that is very much alive and well.

There are many women in that community that I would identify as Butch, but the term Butch is not what they are using to describe themselves.

I would love to do a poll on personal identities and then cross reference to see how many are involved in other communities and whether that influences their personal identity.

I know I am a huge geek, you don't have to tell me.

[TruTexan]

I think it's a geographical issue that some of us in more rural areas don't see femmes or butches out and about. I think it's more that there are larger communities that we choose to live in like Montrose in Houston, or other areas that are gay friendly possibly. I live an hour outside of Dallas in a small East Tx town that you could say HEE HAW VILLE. Population is less than 2,000. I"m the only lesbian in my town, I've never seen any others, butch or femme. Everyone around here is straight , trust me, I've asked around town. I'm all alone in HEE HAW VILLE and would love to find community here. I don't venture out to Dallas, tooo much traffic to deal with and I don't hang in bars or clubs. I'd rather hang out with folks at home and play card games, watch football together, boardgames, bbq, etc. Lots more fun to me to actually hang out and chat with folks..... than sit around and drink in a bar, get drunk and try to dance which is not my thing. I'm more of a introvert I guess. LOL
Are butches a dying breed....I don't think so....This Butch is VERY MUCH STILL AROUND and KICKING.

[Redsunflower]

What a dreadful thought, this thread is freaking me out.

[The_Lady_Snow]

What a dreadful thought, this thread is freaking me out.



Don't freak out!!! There's a few of them at the Winn Dixie right now....:cherry:

[Redsunflower]

Don't freak out!!! There's a few of them at the Winn Dixie right now....:cherry:

Phew, thank goodness for that, I can breathe again!

[~ocean]

~ femmes & butch's aren't going anywhere ~ it's not nice to fool Mother Nature ~ :))))

[Redsunflower]

~ femmes & butch's aren't going anywhere ~ it's not nice to fool Mother Nature ~ :))))

Perfectly said. Love it.

[DaddyNik12]

were still out here ......

[Scuba]

...yet anyway :)

[JAGG]

Alive and well !!! Best kept secret in Oklahoma !!!

[Paradox]

Wasn't sure how to reply to this post.
Is butch a dying breed? I would think that would depend on how Butch is defined. I believe if you are you are referring to traditional rigid male role then perhaps yes as more of the community (young/new members) break away from less fluid terms. Again not saying a stone butch is wrong or right, but how the word is broadly defined.

I live in Toronto, Canada, some may believe the mecca of gayville. It is rare to see OS butches and even less butch/femme couples.

I've been told I'm butch by straight people and not butch enough by some in the LGBT. I am perceived to be butch (how they define it) by what they see. I prefer tomboy, andro (with a slightly more masculine mannerism) because the duality is closer to how I feel rather than a need to fulfil someones' predefined butch label role.

I thought there was a declining population of femmes as well as femmes interested in non-femmes at least it seems that way here. And perhaps more so for anyone 40+.

One post asked a great question about what is it about the dynamic of butch/femme that is sought after? Is it for stereotypical hetero-normative roles?
- For myself it's finding a woman where we compliment each other. Since I don't wear heels or a dress/skirts that is one opposite - maybe she might. How she thinks and feels can make us whole. A femme for me doesn't mean that she must paint her nails, wear makeup, and have some one open the door for her but one with great character.

I think that I'm blind to the Femmes in NH. I think they all look straight to me and I do attract straight women which boggles my mind. It's always been a problem since I was young. I'm still trying to figure it out. I even asked one time because I really wanted to know what I did to do that.

LOL - similar issue. Either I don't see them or I'm hidden from them. Straight women - less of an issue. But maybe to just satisfy a curiosity. ;)

[SaltyButch]

Paradox, I couldn't agree with you more, I am in Mississauga and struggle with finding a community that embraces the butch/femme dynamic let alone Old School in Toronto or the GTA in general. If you are interested in making a new friend I would welcome the opportunity.

As to "butch" a dying breed, I think the rigid definition perhaps is fading out, however, in this day and age there is a new label almost everyday to try and include everyone within our community. I'm not one for labels, but within the b/f community it's a necessity if only to wean out potential partners.

I've been known for years as a "soft butch", because I wasn't clad in the clothes deemed to be what "hard butch"....I prefer to be me, I don't wear heels, makeup or dresses, but on occassion wear silk shirts does that make me less butch. I don't think so, it makes me comfortable with me and who I am, and I'm pretty sure a certain someone has no question that I'm butch.

We need to stop letting people define "us", and embrace and be confident with who we think we are, whether it be soft butch, female Id'd, male id'd, cock id'd, stone, andro, Old School or whatever we choose. The point is "we" are Butch and we bring something different and definitive to the table.

[Paradox]

Merry Xmas to All !!

Hey SaltyButch.
Your live in Sauga terrority. How did you survive the ice storm?

I will not decline an opportunity to make a new friend - :).

It is very hard to find people who are really, genuinely comfortable 'being' and the community for such a space - particularly b/f is almost none-existent.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

I live in Toronto, Canada, some may believe the mecca of gayville. It is rare to see OS butches and even less butch/femme couples.

Hi Paradox,

This made me wonder: is Toronto perhaps not the mecca of gayville, but only the mecca of a certain subgroup of gayville?

I'm familiar with the idea of Toronto as a gay mecca, although my perception was that it was more of a mecca for gay men. I'm not sure where I got that idea, and it could simply be another case of "women are often ignored in the media."

Could it be that the OS b/f mecca is located elsewhere? I think in the Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia area we still have quite a lot. There are certainly lots of queer people who identify in other ways, and maybe it's because I've lived here for 27 of my 48 years, but I see butches and femmes all the time who are people I don't know and don't recall ever having seen before. Of course, I'm the one identifying them as what I would call "butch" and "femme", and I don't ask them how they self-identify. (Do work pants and a tool belt make a butch? . . . gosh, I hope so.)

I'm not claiming the b/f capitol for our own, but I'm wondering what others think? (I'll need to start thinking of retirement communities fairly soon, and I don't think Scottsdale, Arizona would suit me.)

[Leigh]

i hope not cuz I'm still looking for a butch of my own :)

[Daktari]

I think it maybe something that many of us experience.
I too live in a UK town well known for it's gay population and nights out for all. However, I've not met any others that embrace the b/f dynamic.
Sadly we're a very, very small subset of a small subset. :|

It's my experience that there's more access to other b/f folks in the large conurbations; Manchester, London etc. but even then we're still a tiny minority.

It's why we come places like the Planet to find kindred spirits and people who share our life experiences.