Macklemore's "Same Love" : Ally or Exploitation?

[Medusa]

I'm guessing that a fair amount of the users here have either seen the Grammy performance from Sunday night where Macklemore, Queen Latifah, Mary Lambert, Madonna, and 33 couples did a live marriage ceremony while Macklemore performed "Same Love" or you've heard about it.

I've seen several folks comment about Macklemore winning in several categories for Rap music but I'd like that to be a different discussion if at all possible while acknowledging that there are intersections between that discussion and this one.

One particular article I read is located here: http://www.guerrillafem.com/2014/01/...wn-macklemore/

This particular article has some commentary and juxtaposes Beyonce's "Flawless" against "Same Love" and basically calls out all of the ways in which the author feels that Macklemore's "anthem" is bullshit. The author also mentions that Macklemore's call-out of rap music's homophobia is racist and oppressive.
sidebar: The author's name is Kelly Fox and this is her bio: "Kelly is a seriously opinionated sassy femme dyke known for her tagline, ‘Where will you hide when the revolution comes?!’ When she's not terrorizing misogynists, you can find her ingesting large quantities of raw snack nuts, thrifting for floral-printed mini-dresses, and writing ferocious feminist manifestas. She has a Master's degree in Gender & Women’s Studies."
You can see a photo of her on this page: http://www.guerrillafem.com/about/team/

I have a couple of thoughts but I think this is a large, valid discussion to have on multiple levels.

What did you think of the "Same Love" performance?
Do you consider Macklemore an ally?
Do you think Macklemore is exploiting the Gay community?
Do you feel that the song "Same Love" should or should not be considered an "anthem" for Gay rights?
Do you think Macklemore is right to call out the Rap music community for homophobia? Do you think there is rampant homophobia in other music communities? How so?

I'd like to respectfully ask that folks peruse the article I linked above so that we can be on the same page with this discussion. It's not long a long article and I think that some of the juxtaposition with Beyonce and her music and Macklemore's heralding is not only super interesting but worthy of dissection.
I'll caveat this entire thing by saying that this article is NOT indicative of a single woman's ideas. I have seen this line of thought multiple times and multiple ways during the popularity of the song and my intent is to discuss the larger picture and not to focus on this single article.

With that being said, I'll craft another post with my own thoughts but wanted to kick off the discussion with this. Thanks for reading this far!

[ProfPacker]

I have to be honest in not being that intimate with Flawless but will now pay attention to it. But I did having many feelings about the performance from the tome I heard about it. My first thought id that Queen Latina was the officiant. This felt disingenuous to me since she has protected knowledge of her sexuality almost obsessively. I was not familiar with same love so I was curious about the way this was going to be handled in the Grammy's. I was watching this with my 20 year old daughter who was puzzled about the performance (she marches in Pride here in NY). Her response was "and the point of this is? And why is a closeted person doing this? We did discuss that the most touching part was Mary Lambert's participation. She was curious as to thenpoint of Madonna being there. We talked of oppression, how one supports oppression or social injustice (well, ok, I talked, she listened). I went to sleep feeling oppressed and offended. I was amazed how, the next morning my fb page lite up with such gratitude. I was puzzled as to what I was to be grateful to. Moreover, the producers couched "same sex" and protected themselves by mushing all difference together. When my daughter saw the straight couples her response was... but they were always able to marry, gay and lesbian folks can't (ok, I didn't give her a lecture on Virginia vs Loving)

That's my take on it. I believe that it was a white statement by a white man who thanked his fiance after receiving an award. And why didn't he get married that night.
Just saying. May give it more thought, but right now too tired

[C0LLETTE]

Can't we wait till the war's been won before we toss out all the people that want to help us?

[Medusa]

Caveats: I am admittedly getting more and more cranky about uber-educated Queers writing "manifestos" dissecting everything from marriage to orgasms and most often, labeling those things as "racist" or "sexist" through the lens of "but, but, but". That "but, but, but" thing being things like "Queers shouldn't get married because it's racist" or "women shouldn't have orgasms because it's giving in to the patriarchal notion that all sex should be orgasm-driven" or "we shouldn't celebrate the repeal of Don't Ask/Don't Tell because Gay soldiers are still agents of genocide". And NO, I am not saying that all of these things are not valid to discuss or even agree with. My irritation is around the micro-dissection of the fucking leaves while the forest grows wild and free.
More caveats: There are several articles out there with screen-shots of things that Macklemore is supposed to have tweeted that could appear to be homophobic. I have, admittedly, not dove very far yet into what the context or circumstance might have been but wanted to acknowledge that I know it's out there.
Broad caveat: I am speaking from my experience and my thought process. My thoughts do not necessarily reflect the direction or process of the site "ButchFemmePlanet" as an entity. My intent is to be as respectful as possible and I am speaking as clearly as I can with what language I normally use.


*breath*

With all of the above caveats, I'd like to start by saying that I appreciate the sentiment behind the song "Same Love" and think that Mary Lambert is fucking amazing. I also appreciate that Macklemore's song "Same Love" has become a highly-visible and recognizable "Gay rights" song. If I am not mistaken, this is the first time a popular "Top 100" song has said succinctly and openly that Gay folks should have the same ability to marry their partner/obtain the same human rights as everyone else.

I do think it is problematic to draw such a definitive parallel between Gay rights and the rights of Persons of Color because I do not feel that those principles are the same. BUT, I acknowledge that there are definite similar themes and can see why a person who is only looking at the surface would draw those conclusions.

I thought the performance at the Grammys was important and super-appreciated the inclusion of seemingly-appearing "straight" couples in the 33-couple ceremony that was performed on stage. I think it was purposeful and did much to say, "this is not just a "Gay" thing, this is a "marriage" thing".
I also noticed several celebrities like Keith Urban wiping away tears and thought that was nice.

No ally is perfect and I do believe that Macklemore has to understand the value of "playing to the crowd" with his Gay Rights stance. He's not stupid, clearly. Is he pandering? Probably. Is he exploiting? Probably.

Is it super-valuable that a famous, white, straight, rap performer is calling for equal rights for Gay people? In my opinion, yes, it is valuable. Acknowledging that there are shitty areas of this entire media thing, I'd submit that Macklemore's "Same Love" is falling in line with the idea that it is up to the folks with the rights to help the folks without rights carve a path to those rights.
And I'll be honest, it pisses me the fuck off that what little this guy is doing is being vilified on some level. Is it perfect? Oh, hell no. We call for our straight allies to stand with us. This one did. Did he have one hand in the Queer cookie jar? Probably. Do we sometimes have to acknowledge that our allies suck at being allies? Yep. Can we find ways to appreciate what strides people are able to make with their language and their experience to understand us Queer folks? I think we can. Gah, I hope we can.

I have more but I need to rest my wrists!! Back in a bit!

[ProfPacker]

Medusa,
I don't disagree with what you are saying but the event felt exploitive. I'm agree that it is under the larger umbrella of civil rights but Hollywood is opportunist. Did the writer of the missive sound angry and place this under the rubric of more neolliberal patter. She did.

I was actually more curious about a 20 year old's reaction given that for many years her family was not legitimized. I think she really took offense at it not really being a clear statement of queer marriage. So, I was filtering from the lenses of a 65 year old woman who did feel moved but confused by my reaction that I was not overly moved and a 20 year old that has been experiencing her own oppression from the dominant world as being the daughter of queer parents.

I do think it takes a lot more to be an ally than a song and a show. That's why I thought it would have been more affirming if he and his fiance would have married along with others. So, the intentionality is not clean cut. I appreciate Queen Latina's struggle and actually was wondering what she was really feeling. Socorro that I am someone ambiguous but that is where I am at these days.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by femmepacker

Medusa,
I don't disagree with what you are saying but the event felt exploitive. I'm agree that it is under the larger umbrella of civil rights but Hollywood is opportunist. Did the writer of the missive sound angry and place this under the rubric of more neolliberal patter. She did.

I was actually more curious about a 20 year old's reaction given that for many years her family was not legitimized. I think she really took offense at it not really being a clear statement of queer marriage. So, I was filtering from the lenses of a 65 year old woman who did feel moved but confused by my reaction that I was not overly moved and a 20 year old that has been experiencing her own oppression from the dominant world as being the daughter of queer parents.

I do think it takes a lot more to be an ally than a song and a show. That's why I thought it would have been more affirming if he and his fiance would have married along with others. So, the intentionality is not clean cut. I appreciate Queen Latina's struggle and actually was wondering what she was really feeling. Socorro that I am someone ambiguous but that is where I am at these days.

Oh, so so much agreed on Hollywood being opportunist! And like Snowy said earlier, we are the latest "cash cow" for Hollywood.

I was wondering what Queen Latifah was feeling as well but I don't think it was any coincidence that they had her officiating. I have read for years as the tabloids have speculated about Latifah's sexuality and I remember that several tabloids had published photos of her kissing and embracing her personal trainer/friend. (I can't remember how they described her!)

It was odd to me to have Madonna there. I mean, I know she has been a champion for Gay rights for a long time but I would have liked to see another actual GAY person on the stage. Like Elton John maybe? Or KD Lang? Or Melissa Etheridge? or George Michael? Or hell, any of them. Or, even better, ALL of them!!

And can I say again that Mary Lambert is fabulous??!?!?!?

[ProfPacker]

But in many ways this was another avenue for the privileged and dominant group to feel good about themselves. If you think of the history of social services in this country it was always based on those in power "doing good". If there was equal distribution of rights and wealth how would these people feel good about themselves. The writer of the article is correct in talking about neoliberalism. We have a history in this country of providing rights as long as the dominant group accords us permission. It is a very nuanced experiemce. It will only work when they stop pitting marginalized groups against each other. And, the marginalized and oppressed groups realize that a lot of their in fighting is caused by this dynamic.

[C0LLETTE]

I'm no expert but isn't this the way of most "revolutions? They're seldom, if ever, fronted by the oppressed who are too busy being oppressed to have the luxury or advantage to do much flag bearing.

I'll confess, I live in a cave and poke my head out every now and then to see what's going on. Three days ago I'd never heard of "Same Love", Macklemore, Mary Lambert. I barely know what hip hop is either.

Yes yes it was a glitzy, schmaltzy, maybe exploitative performance. But I , for one, enjoyed it; am happy that Broke Back Mountain might now be retired as Hollywood's only major paean to gayness (tyg). People got married, no one died tragically and, I read that Mary Lambert has signed with Capitol Records and is climbing the Billboard charts. Not every gift horse is Trojan.

[Parker]

I have no issues with Same Love bc (a) Mary helped to write it and (b) it was written during the time WA was trying to legalize marriage equality - it was written in support of that (that's what he is talking about with the lyrics, "Damn right I support it" and "And a certificate on paper isn't gonna solve it all
But it's a damn good place to start").

So while it has gotten huge and he is getting rich off of it (and other songs), it started out in a good place and I cant fault him (or them) for that - plus, like someone else said, it brought Mary out into the spotlight, where she should be. Is he perfect? Good lord, no. But I'll take an ally who is making a few bucks off of a song that supports marriage equality over an ally who still uses, "that's gay" (ahem, Dixie Chicks' Natalie Maines) any damn day of the week.

Personally, I was touched by what I saw - yes, Madonna being there was a little strange and I would have preferred someone who is OUT officiating to Queen Latifah (no offense, I love the Queen), but just seeing all of those gay couples getting married right there on live TV, in front of millions of people - that was huge. And since my crusty old heart sometimes melts a bit at things like that, it was sweet to see them all so happy and to see everyone celebrating with them.

I will say that it made me a little uncomfortable to watch him rap the lyrics about Hip Hop's homophobia - he walked out to the edge of the stage like he was calling out specific people and I couldnt help but think about how much hate comes our way from the Country music side of things (I found Reba to be a particular disappointment). I agree with whoever said that he is speaking to his genre - but a LOT of people have issues with him even being IN that genre, let alone being a white dude calling people out in Hip Hop.

But that's probably another thread...

[Martina]

There does come a point in a movement when the mainstream capitulates and then pretends they were on your side all along, or at the very least were innocent bystanders.

I am too old to be in touch with current zeitgeist well enough to know whether this song is part of that kind of revisionist project. When I was younger, examples (re racism) were "Dances with Wolves" and "Forest Gump."

I do think the article makes some good points, and I would agree that the song is not smart or all that helpful as it is written. Ironically Macklemore and Lewis are smart writers. I think it's interesting that they have put so much energy into a not very good song. I agree that maybe they are doing it, at least in part, to deflect some of the criticism around two white guys getting so much more attention than African American rappers this year. I don't know the genre and the pop culture around the issue well enough to comment much. I am not sure why they are getting more criticism than Eminem has, for example. Is it partially a class issue? I did read that they are the first white rappers to gain success without being more or less sponsored by African American rap artists and without coming up through the institutions where most rap artists find recognition. They got fame through youtube, I think I read.

One thing that has bothered me lately was the Duck Dynasty controversy. That very well-educated redneck (he has a Master's degree in education) did not just make homophobic remarks. He as much as said that African Americans in his part of the world did not suffer under Jim Crow. That that wasn't much of a big deal is, to me, crazy-making. Talk about erasing history. And that guy really knows better. He chooses to believe that. That the Duck Dynasty brouhaha is usually referred to just in terms of his making homophobic remarks is telling.

I was stunned that pretending that racism was never all that toxic in the South got so little reaction. How successful has our erasure of the crimes of our past been? Are we doing the same thing re gay and lesbian oppression?

I read an article about a woman who said that Archie Manning lied in his autobiography about his high school years during integration. At the very least, Manning, President of his class, did not lift a finger to help the African American students who were being bullied in his newly integrated high school. He has completely rewritten history when he tells his story and accuses the people who have called him on it liars. And that video hagiography of the family that is constantly on ESPN mentions nothing of all that. Archie Manning was a moral coward. That is a story that gets told on little websites, not on ESPN.

I know Paula Deen got trounced for racism, but her lapses were so blatant that they were impossible to defend. That Duck Dynasty daddy's saying that the his Louisiana African American neighbors were singing happily in the fields before the Civil Rights era is somehow less objectionable than his homophobia? I still do not get that.

Culture wants to forgive itself, and to do so, it rewrites history. We want to hear Archie Manning saying, yes, it's good segregation is over without having to hear the stories of the African Americans whose persecution he sat by and watched. We want to remember it without the blood and the pain, without seeing ourselves, our parents and grandparents as people who caused terrible harm to others. The Help, written by a white Southern woman, may have ended on a too sanguine note and over-emphasized the role of young white people in change, but you do see vivid details of real harm done by people who lived on to become our beloved grandmothers and great grandmothers. That, to me, is helpful (no pun intended).

Macklemore and Lewis are smart guys. Not homophobes. Not racists. Decent guys. But are they helping to create that alternative narrative of the innocent straight white guy who was always on your side, who never wished us any harm? I am way cool with people coming to their own truths in their own time and with joining the cause at any point -- early or late. I am not cool with some picture of reality that says they were always there or that they lead the way. Allies, maybe. Activists or leaders. NO. Don't even accidentally look like you are.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I'm guessing that a fair amount of the users here have either seen the Grammy performance from Sunday night where Macklemore, Queen Latifah, Mary Lambert, Madonna, and 33 couples did a live marriage ceremony while Macklemore performed "Same Love" or you've heard about it.

I've seen several folks comment about Macklemore winning in several categories for Rap music but I'd like that to be a different discussion if at all possible while acknowledging that there are intersections between that discussion and this one.

One particular article I read is located here: http://www.guerrillafem.com/2014/01/...wn-macklemore/

This particular article has some commentary and juxtaposes Beyonce's "Flawless" against "Same Love" and basically calls out all of the ways in which the author feels that Macklemore's "anthem" is bullshit. The author also mentions that Macklemore's call-out of rap music's homophobia is racist and oppressive.
sidebar: The author's name is Kelly Fox and this is her bio: "Kelly is a seriously opinionated sassy femme dyke known for her tagline, ‘Where will you hide when the revolution comes?!’ When she's not terrorizing misogynists, you can find her ingesting large quantities of raw snack nuts, thrifting for floral-printed mini-dresses, and writing ferocious feminist manifestas. She has a Master's degree in Gender & Women’s Studies."
You can see a photo of her on this page: http://www.guerrillafem.com/about/team/

I have a couple of thoughts but I think this is a large, valid discussion to have on multiple levels.

What did you think of the "Same Love" performance?

I gave up long ago that Hollyweird is ever going to take up the cause for any oppressed groups, be they gay, POC or anything else than white male, so when I watched the Grammy's I was excited as a 44 year old dyke watching gay folk get married on live TV. It's all about the numbers, revenue, who's gonna win the rating for that night. It was just that, a performance that was something I thought I'd never see I was all warm for a bit, but then other stuff starts to bother me and I begin to pick it apart so I don't, I push it aside and I went ahead and kept the rose colored glasses and basked in the glow.

Do you consider Macklemore an ally?

I think he thinks he's a great ally, could he do more? Yes, if he was an ally I believe he could give Mary Lambert more credit, she deserves more credit for that collaboration, so when I do not see that it makes me go hmm. ally or opportunist? Other than this song, I hadn't seen him standing up for our rights, which leads me to go hmmm

Do you think Macklemore is exploiting the Gay community?

I think ALL artists exploit the Gay Community, it's trendy to be a friend to the gays..

Do you feel that the song "Same Love" should or should not be considered an "anthem" for Gay rights?

No. It's not my anthem.


Do you think Macklemore is right to call out the Rap music community for homophobia?

I think he should stick to calling out his own music genre out, it's not like rap music is the only music full of ism's or homophobia, this is where for me I get a little mad and upset with Macklemore. He's what I like to refer to as a fence straddler, one foot in hip hop the other in main stream. It's like he's literally rising up on the backs of two oppressed groups.

Do you think there is rampant homophobia in other music communities?

Yes

How so?

The country group Big & Rich is known for songs like Save A Horse, Ride A Cowboy. They are also known for writing a song supporting John McCain in the 2008 election, and for lead singer, John Rich's outspoken homophobia.


---------------------------------------


Another country singer, 2008 Grammy nominee, Brad Paisley, has a popular song called, I'm Still a Guy. In it he sings:

Well love makes a man do some things he ain't proud of / And in a weak moment I might walk your sissy dog, hold your purse at the mall / But remember, I'm still a guy /.../ These days there's dudes getting facials / Manicured, waxed and botoxed / With deep spray-on tans and creamy lotiony hands / You can't grip a tacklebox / With all of these men lining up to get neutered / It's hip now to be feminized / I don't highlight my hair / I've still got a pair / Yeah honey, I'm still a guy

-----------------------------------------------------

Ricky Martin, Elton John, Morrisey, Freddie Mercury, legends but weren't free to be out until late in life, their careers would be different.




I'd like to respectfully ask that folks peruse the article I linked above so that we can be on the same page with this discussion. It's not long a long article and I think that some of the juxtaposition with Beyonce and her music and Macklemore's heralding is not only super interesting but worthy of dissection.
I'll caveat this entire thing by saying that this article is NOT indicative of a single woman's ideas. I have seen this line of thought multiple times and multiple ways during the popularity of the song and my intent is to discuss the larger picture and not to focus on this single article.

With that being said, I'll craft another post with my own thoughts but wanted to kick off the discussion with this. Thanks for reading this far!

I have other bigger issues with the whole Macklemore beating out Kendrick Lamar, it bothers me A LOT probably more than it does that he is the new gay ally. I had an issue with it when Macklemore cleaned up at the MTV awards, but he's been known to admit his privileges I posted about it back in August here:

>linkyloo<


Look to me, he's no different than any other artist who joins the *cause* of the week that gets them more cash flow. What do we expect, we buy into it, watch it, enable it, and rarely speak against it.

I don't connect with Beyonce like the woman in the article.

[The_Lady_Snow]

P.S.

I want to clarify I am not a hater of Macklemore, I don't see him as a bad person, I am being honest about how things are broken down in my head when it comes to everyday issues that have an effect on me as a person in the LGBTQI world.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

P.S.

I want to clarify I am not a hater of Macklemore, I don't see him as a bad person, I am being honest about how things are broken down in my head when it comes to everyday issues that have an effect on me as a person in the LGBTQI world.

Same for me, Snowy. I don't hate Macklemore or even the shitty parts of what is happening with "Same Love" and all of its/his fame. I feel like some of the shitty parts are necessity.

[ProfPacker]

I just hope that there continues to be a dialogue. I do agree about how shifty it was that Mary Lambert is not getting the recognition as one of the main creators of the song. It is the privileged white male who needs to abdicate his glory and elevate her. If she does that I will have more respect for the process.

That being said, I think when LBGTQ folks spend the next day thanking the establishment from throwing them a bone the dialogue becomes diluted. Those that question become angry, pulling things apart, non-appreciative. That is how oppression works. The oppressed group tries to figure out how to take a stand because the oppressed are always aware that their rights that they are denied will only be given to them by the privileged group.

I hope that this can be a forum where we can look at the effects of oppressioncand marginalization on our own identity development.

[Selenay]

I'm torn about how I feel. On one hand, it's important to have pro LGBT celebrity allies; as much as we may not agree with the allies we acquire, they are helping to shape a cultural narrative and start a dialogue that, in many ways, we CAN'T start.

On the other hand, I find it problematic that a straight white cis-man has created an anthem for the queer community; I felt the same way when Katy Perry's "I Kissed A Girl," was tearing up the charts.

I agree with calling out systemic discrimination, and I don't think that Macklemore calling out the rap/hiphop community is more troubling than if Miranda Lambert did it.

That being said, it is not my anthem—I prefer other anthems.

For those who are intrigued, I find that Angel Haze did a pretty great cover of it, written from a queerer perspective, which you can hear here. I don't find her version triggering, but your mileage may vary and whatnot.

We're all part of the queer community—I mean unless you don't identify as part of the queer community which is also a-okay—if "Same Love" your anthem, rock on. If "Born This Way" is your anthem, awesomesauce. If "I'm The Only One" is your anthem, keep doing your thing. Whatever makes you raise your fist is an awesome anthem, and I don't get to say it's not: that's what makes it yours.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Selenay

I'm torn about how I feel. On one hand, it's important to have pro LGBT celebrity allies; as much as we may not agree with the allies we acquire, they are helping to shape a cultural narrative and start a dialogue that, in many ways, we CAN'T start.

On the other hand, I find it problematic that a straight white cis-man has created an anthem for the queer community; I felt the same way when Katy Perry's "I Kissed A Girl," was tearing up the charts.

I agree with calling out systemic discrimination, and I don't think that Macklemore calling out the rap/hiphop community is more troubling than if Miranda Lambert did it.

That being said, it is not my anthem—I prefer other anthems.

For those who are intrigued, I find that Angel Haze did a pretty great cover of it, written from a queerer perspective, which you can hear here. I don't find her version triggering, but your mileage may vary and whatnot.

We're all part of the queer community—I mean unless you don't identify as part of the queer community which is also a-okay—if "Same Love" your anthem, rock on. If "Born This Way" is your anthem, awesomesauce. If "I'm The Only One" is your anthem, keep doing your thing. Whatever makes you raise your fist is an awesome anthem, and I don't get to say it's not: that's what makes it yours.

This. This. This.

It is SO true that Macklemore is helping to create a dialog that we can't. Mary Lambert has been singing for a long time. But where? Was she in the top 100? Was she even getting any airplay on ANY station around the US? That's the thing with Queer singers, they have to be the Singer first and the Queer second. And by that, I am exampling Melissa Etheridge.

She was a singer for a while before she came out. I know there must be Gay singers who were known to be Gay before they became famous but I'm having a hard time thinking of one.

Consequently, I just saw a documentary on LOGO about a pair of twin brothers who were both Mormon and Gay and who were trying to get their singing career going as openly Gay/Bisexual (I can't remember if one of them was Bi or both were Gay) and the trials of that. It was called "Nemesis Rising" if anyone is interested!