Men with boobs.

Heart · 05-11-2010, 11:06 AM

Gemme - but do you see my point? Why does her masculinity make her a man? Why not a masculine woman? Why do we persist in assuming that masculinity belongs to men? This is how male gets privileged over female constantly in queer communities.

Heart

Medusa · 05-11-2010, 11:08 AM

Im totally embarrassed now.

I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots"

Deborah · 05-11-2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa

Im totally embarrassed now.

I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots"

hahaha....he may wear boots also.

betenoire · 05-12-2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaqueline

hahaha....he may wear boots also.

I am wondering why nobody (especially those who are of the "it is unacceptable to every compare a masculine woman to a man" camp) bothered to point out how uncool it is to just go about and defacto refer to every Butch (or butch) person on the planet as "he" regardless of what their own preferred pronoun is. Because -that- is one of my own pet-peeves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Once again, as we repeat ourselves over and over:

Well then how about I repeat my question, since you clearly did not actually read my post just now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

But I do have a question. If comparing a masculine female to a man is upsetting...is it also upsetting when someone refers to their (female identified) lover as "Daddy" "Sir" "My Husband" etc. I get that those words do not mean "man" to us in this community - but I also get that those are words that have been used to describe men in various positions...well, for as long as those words have existed. Should we as a community reject those words? Should we be making up new words?

I'm not trying to be a shit-disturber by asking that question. I genuinely can't wrap my head around how one thing is diminishing and the other is perfectly acceptable. We cannot have it both ways.

Heart · 05-12-2010, 04:54 PM

For those who keep making this about CN, and saying that we have no idea what her personal identity and relationship is all about, you sure seem to know a lot about whether she understands BF lingo, queer culture, etc. Who the heck knows? But she is a smart, successful woman, who has supported both feminist and queer causes, and who has been in a queer relationship for quite a while now in New York City. She and her partner do not live under a rock. In light of that, I personally think her remark was careless and stupid and minimizing of masculine/butch women. I also think it probably was off-the-cuff and unintentional.

BUT as I've said 50 times in this thread, in fact I said it in my very first 2-sentence post, my point was how routine that kind of minimization is, how little we even notice it, and then how ferociously we justify it when its pointed out. This thread bears that out. We would never see this kind of response if a transman's identity was belittled, in fact I have seen the partners of transmen, often femmes, get called on the carpet and lectured about the ways that they need to uphold their partners identities.

So men's identities are delicate and valuable and must be preserved, but women's identities get no such regard. Interesting.

Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband."

Heart

betenoire · 05-12-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart

Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband."

Heart

What about "Dude" "Bro" "Man"? (Man as in "Don't bogart that can, man" not as in MAN) "Bud" even, as far as I'm concerned, has male connotations. That shit gets thrown around constantly, and nobody bats an eye. I still fail to see how this is any different.

Heart · 05-12-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

What about "Dude" "Bro" "Man"? (Man as in "Don't bogart that can, man" not as in MAN) "Bud" even, as far as I'm concerned, has male connotations. That shit gets thrown around constantly, and nobody bats an eye. I still fail to see how this is any different.

Hmmm... I kinda feel now like you''re just baiting me. I guess if you don't see the diff between generic "hay man," or " hey dude," and the way that CN attempted to explain/define her masculine female partner to the world as a "man with boobs" -- well, there sure isn't anything I'm gonna say that will make you see the difference.

By-the-way, recently when a male id'ed butch who is organizing on behalf of other butches of various identities referred to "brotherhood," I asked him if his organizing included "sisterhood." He allowed that it did.

Peace out dude.
Heart

Queerasfck · 05-11-2010, 11:12 AM

As we all know how someone id's varies greatly. Maybe her partner wants that as her id, who knows? Maybe Nixon was just trying to be funny. The thing is just because someone is in the public eye it doesn't make them the spokesperson for all queers, but yet at the same time it does draw a lot of attention to us. For good or bad.

Medusa · 05-11-2010, 11:19 AM

Devil's Advocate for just a second:

Sometimes I wonder if people dont say things like this when they know that a larger audience will be reading it (read: straight audience) as a way to get people to understand that Butch is a different energy.

Now, to me, "Butch" isn't "Male" energy. In Jackhammer, it's just "Butch" energy but I do see how people who have never encountered "Butch" as anything other than a bad "Butch always equals flannel shirts, crew cuts, and militant feminism" stereotype can maybe understand it better. I hate that the understanding comes at a price though...and sometimes the understanding doesnt come at all.

Jack and I have sometimes explained to family or friends that her energy is not "Male" but "Tomboy" and they seem to get that she is still a woman when she is grunting over an engine, fixing something, or chewing Skoal (ICK!). *We* know that she isnt "just a Tomboy" but that she is a "Butch" but in order to further the understanding with whoever we are talking to, we have sometimes broken it down into a concept they can understand.

Jet · 05-15-2010, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa

Im totally embarrassed now.

I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots"

lol..........

Heart · 05-11-2010, 11:11 AM

Dusa - it was in the NY Daily News as well. Nixon called her partner a butch, but described her as basically a "short man with boobs." Of course you can imagine the comments that follow, including those that ask, "why not just be with a real man?" This is one of the most heart-rending things to me -- that butch women aren't seen as "real" women or as "real" men. They are erased thru our own narrow and limited vision.

05-11-2010, 11:08 AM	#2
Medusa Mentally Delicious How Do You Identify?: Queer High Femme, thank you very much Preferred Pronoun?: Mme. Relationship Status: Married to JD. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,446 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,995 Thanked 42,686 Times in 7,831 Posts Rep Power: 10000025	Im totally embarrassed now. I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots" __________________ . . . Buy ButchFemmePlanet Merch Here: https://teespring.com/stores/butchfemmeplanetcom-merch

05-12-2010, 04:54 PM	#5
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,522 Times in 409 Posts Rep Power: 12032610	hello again For those who keep making this about CN, and saying that we have no idea what her personal identity and relationship is all about, you sure seem to know a lot about whether she understands BF lingo, queer culture, etc. Who the heck knows? But she is a smart, successful woman, who has supported both feminist and queer causes, and who has been in a queer relationship for quite a while now in New York City. She and her partner do not live under a rock. In light of that, I personally think her remark was careless and stupid and minimizing of masculine/butch women. I also think it probably was off-the-cuff and unintentional. BUT as I've said 50 times in this thread, in fact I said it in my very first 2-sentence post, my point was how routine that kind of minimization is, how little we even notice it, and then how ferociously we justify it when its pointed out. This thread bears that out. We would never see this kind of response if a transman's identity was belittled, in fact I have seen the partners of transmen, often femmes, get called on the carpet and lectured about the ways that they need to uphold their partners identities. So men's identities are delicate and valuable and must be preserved, but women's identities get no such regard. Interesting. Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband." Heart

05-11-2010, 11:12 AM	#8
Queerasfck Senior Member How Do You Identify?: still ballin' Relationship Status: Triple X Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: west side Posts: 2,544 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,716 Thanked 6,488 Times in 1,638 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	As we all know how someone id's varies greatly. Maybe her partner wants that as her id, who knows? Maybe Nixon was just trying to be funny. The thing is just because someone is in the public eye it doesn't make them the spokesperson for all queers, but yet at the same time it does draw a lot of attention to us. For good or bad. __________________ http://www.advertisingarchives.co.uk...28750fb328.jpg

05-11-2010, 11:19 AM	#9
Medusa Mentally Delicious How Do You Identify?: Queer High Femme, thank you very much Preferred Pronoun?: Mme. Relationship Status: Married to JD. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,446 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,995 Thanked 42,686 Times in 7,831 Posts Rep Power: 10000025	Devil's Advocate for just a second: Sometimes I wonder if people dont say things like this when they know that a larger audience will be reading it (read: straight audience) as a way to get people to understand that Butch is a different energy. Now, to me, "Butch" isn't "Male" energy. In Jackhammer, it's just "Butch" energy but I do see how people who have never encountered "Butch" as anything other than a bad "Butch always equals flannel shirts, crew cuts, and militant feminism" stereotype can maybe understand it better. I hate that the understanding comes at a price though...and sometimes the understanding doesnt come at all. Jack and I have sometimes explained to family or friends that her energy is not "Male" but "Tomboy" and they seem to get that she is still a woman when she is grunting over an engine, fixing something, or chewing Skoal (ICK!). We know that she isnt "just a Tomboy" but that she is a "Butch" but in order to further the understanding with whoever we are talking to, we have sometimes broken it down into a concept they can understand. __________________ . . . Buy ButchFemmePlanet Merch Here: https://teespring.com/stores/butchfemmeplanetcom-merch

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05-11-2010, 11:06 AM	#1
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,522 Times in 409 Posts Rep Power: 12032610	Gemme - but do you see my point? Why does her masculinity make her a man? Why not a masculine woman? Why do we persist in assuming that masculinity belongs to men? This is how male gets privileged over female constantly in queer communities. Heart

05-11-2010, 11:11 AM	#11
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,522 Times in 409 Posts Rep Power: 12032610	Dusa - it was in the NY Daily News as well. Nixon called her partner a butch, but described her as basically a "short man with boobs." Of course you can imagine the comments that follow, including those that ask, "why not just be with a real man?" This is one of the most heart-rending things to me -- that butch women aren't seen as "real" women or as "real" men. They are erased thru our own narrow and limited vision.