Men with boobs.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

.... There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch....


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Hey, there, Darth.

First I want to say that I loved your post. LOVED it.

But, I chopped the heck out of it...lol I took just one snipet of it, but I think that this is not taken out of context from the whole post. If so, please let me know.

Anyway, with that said....

I absolutely disagree with you. lol I strongly disagree with the idea that there is an unspoken understanding that butch should evolve into something specific and that ideally it should be a more masculine identity.

Absolutely disagree.

Now I have seen some butches who seem to not understand their own feelings of masculinity and subsequently they wonder if this means they are FTM (I am thinking I see this most often with people who just figure out that they are butch/find community for the first time), but I disagree that there is some expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity", than "just butch" when they walk in the door.

But, that's just my opinion.

ETA: This is not the same as saying that there has not been an encouargement towards using the pronoun he in the community. That is a different issue, in my mind.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, there, Darth.

First I want to say that I loved your post. LOVED it.

But, I chopped the heck out of it...lol I took just one snipet of it, but I think that this is not taken out of context from the whole post. If so, please let me know.

Anyway, with that said....

I absolutely disagree with you. lol I strongly disagree with the idea that there is an unspoken understanding that butch should evolve into something specific and that ideally it should be a more masculine identity.

Absolutely disagree.



Now I have seen some butches who seem to not understand their own feelings of masculinity and subsequently they wonder if this means they are FTM (I am thinking I see this most often with people who just figure out that they are butch/find community for the first time), but I disagree that there is some expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity", than "just butch" when they walk in the door.

But, that's just my opinion.

ETA: This is not the same as saying that there has not been an encouargement towards using the pronoun he in the community. That is a different issue, in my mind.

Hi Dapper-


I have to say that I have felt what Darth brought up (the expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity") in our community. However, it is really important to take this apart and look inside at what is going on and consider one's own insecurities or just unfinished evolvement. Or maybe even personal experiences. Usually, when I do this, I find that so much of what is going on is about me figuring me out. This is where the whole blame-game stuff can get way out of hand.

When it comes down to it, no one can make me into something I don't want to be or do not experience as incongruent.

I wonder, though, if there exists an age variable here. I know that when I was in my teens, 20's and even part of my 30's, social/peer pressure did influence me. Just thinking this over... wanting to be accepted by others we perceive as an ideal or having desired characteristics can be a powerful force.

Yes, the pronoun stuff is another issue.


No, I am not insinuating a thing about butches that transition who are not FtM's or Inter-gendered. I think there is a whole lot of bio-physiological gender explanations (including chromosomal links) that explain this. But, as much as we try, the traditional gender binary keeps poking its ugly head out. And it hurts us all… butches and femmes… the whole damn world of gender designations!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Hi Dapper-


I have to say that I have felt what Darth brought up (the expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity") in our community. However, it is really important to take this apart and look inside at what is going on and consider one's own insecurities or just unfinished evolvement. Or maybe even personal experiences. Usually, when I do this, I find that so much of what is going on is about me figuring me out. This is where the whole blame-game stuff can get way out of hand.
When it comes down to it, no one can make me into something I don't want to be or do not experience as incongruent.

I wonder, though, if there exists an age variable here. I know that when I was in my teens, 20's and even part of my 30's, social/peer pressure did influence me. Just thinking this over... wanting to be accepted by others we perceive as an ideal or having desired characteristics can be a powerful force.
Yes, the pronoun stuff is another issue.


No, I am not insinuating a thing about butches that transition who are not FtM's or Inter-gendered. I think there is a whole lot of bio-physiological gender explanations (including chromosomal links) that explain this. But, as much as we try, the traditional gender binary keeps poking its ugly head out. And it hurts us all… butches and femmes… the whole damn world of gender designations!

Yes, the first statement is similar to where I was going in my post (one's own self awareness), and your second point I wanted to say also, but couldn't figure out a way to say it well.

Just as I was teasing out the pronoun issue, I also want to tease out the fact that in my posts I am not speaking to the belief often presented that male is valued over female in our community (subsequently, male id butch possibly being valued over female id butch).

Thanks.

[Dylan]

I just asked Mahhh Woman if she considers her pronoun a 'preference'...she said, "No. It's just my pronoun"

Seems logical enough. I'll bet if I asked my mother if she thought her pronoun was a 'preference', she'd probably wonder what the hell I was smoking.

I don't get why for butches, pronouns are considered a 'preference'. I mean, I have a preference for things like brands of coffee, cigarettes, candy bars, things like that.

Preference kind of implies a particular liking for something, but not necessarily a necessity. I mean, if the store is out Reese Peanut Butter cups, I might set my sights on...mmmmmm maybe a Twix Bar. 'Preference' implies if I don't get my way, there's other 'choices'.

I don't find my mother's pronoun a 'choice' or a 'preference'. It's just an IS. She's a she. No questions. No hard work. No one screws it up. No one has to write it down and make a big list.

And yet for butches, in a queer community, a pronoun is a 'preference'. It's WORK for QUEERS in a QUEER community to remember a pronoun? Really? It's difficult? Because, seems to me, in a queer community amongst QUEERS that I and other transguys would have more of a hard time with pronouns.

So that makes me wonder, WHY in a queer community are QUEERS defaulting to he? It's quite heterosexist for the default to be 'he', no? I mean, are butches just supposed to be male stand ins? Is it an "I'm not ready to accept I'm queer" thing?

And saying, "but but but, it's so harrrrrrrrdddddddd to keep track of a pronoun, and I don't like being called out when I don't want to do the 'work'..."...isn't that kind of like saying, "If you want to see all butches as he and male, why not just go back to men?"


I'm Being Serious, Because I Don't Get It...And I'm Willing To Bet Not Too Many Femmes Around Here Have A) EVER Been Called By The Wrong Pronoun And B) Consider Their Pronouns A 'Preference',
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Bustelo and Hy.