Men with boobs.

[blush]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

Originally Posted by Nat

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by blush

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

No, my post wasn't so much about pronouns--I'm pretty solid about noticing and/or remembering people's preferences.

I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be.

[blush]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

No, my post wasn't so much about pronouns--I'm pretty solid about noticing and/or remembering people's preferences.

I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be.

My initial response was more relevant to what you had posted. I edited it.
Sorry for the confusion.

I think we're all pretty solid on our awareness of people's preferences. But I think femmes are held more accountable than other people if the pronoun is incorrect, or if she admits that sometimes it's hard.

[Dude]

For starters, I really take offence with the short man with boobs thing this
woman said.

I wont go on about my problem with short men. My dad was one,nearly all of my bosses
have exuded the stuff of the short man syndrome.
It would be completely unfair to short men everywhere to say they are all alike, I get that.

With the short man and the boobs word ,I would be completely insulted by them used
together to describe me to the fuckin world.

Let me talk cows then.

Had I been born a cow , bull would be what I identified with from a very young age.
I dreamed of having a wife and providing for my family from the age of 10ish.
Smallish udders began to appear 6 years after that. At that time, I decided I could
have a nice life after surgery.
As time went by, I realized there were women who preferred odd ducks such as
myself and surgery was not really necessary at this point in time.

Later, I realized my mom would have huge issues (nervous breakdown or perhaps tons of dramatics as to what she had done wrong as a mother when it came to me)
She would have been horrified. It was hard enough for her to be the first to tell me at 12 "woah
you are a butch"!!!
I loved her and did nothing. On morphine, towards her passing was when she was able to enjoy me for being just who I am.

So for me it's all very personal. 9 times out of 10 it seems people out and about ,or at work etc call me sir.

I don't have the energy or words to correct them all.
Especially if I'm correcting them to a maam or miss or she.

This does not negate the fact that I also am very proud of the many times I have been
the first bull with udders to be hired to do a strictly bull job.


My honey just reminded me of a movie called barnyard she made me watch with her.
The boy cows even have udders.

She then told me I cant be Ben the bull because Ben was nice and I'm not a cow I'm an ass.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by blush

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

I don't think many butches are upset about honest and unintentional mistakes. I definitely don't think that's what people are talking about in this thread. If unsure all people have to do is ask or just not use a pronoun. It may sound a bit awkward but it can be done.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by blush

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

I think (could be wrong) that most of the posts at first were in response to the laziness explanation posted. Mainly, because we do have a place on the Planet to just put the pronouns we prefer out there.

However, quite a few ensuing posts brought up some very gamey things that frankly, I have to put on butches. Feel like these examples of how genuine attempts for the sake of clarity and respectful interaction can run afoul. And the most disturbing thing to me is that underlying this is the continuation of some butches feeling they must man-up on the site. I am probably going to get smacked around for this, but....... if and when this happens, it is more about personal insecurity and not femmes or other butches, TG/IG folks. Yes, I think some of this is hard at times, but we all have to look at ourselves in life and own personal horseshit (good clinical term, LOL). Not easy, not fun, but necessary. Accountability is always personal.

I posted a couple of situations that happened to me, that involved a femme as examples for the discussion as a whole. I in no way meant this as femme bashing or placing ultimate blame on femmes. In the end, butches have to take responsibility for ourselves and speak up for ourselves (all butches, no matter the identity). I should have included that I did just that in that situation- told her exactly how I felt about this and why this went to the fact that I could not pursue a relationship with her. Not in a mean way.

Part of what I am saying here has to do with disdain for things like butch-ego (really meaning male-ego). Didn’t care for this when I was hetero, made certain my son did not internalize and buy it, and find it insulting not only as a butch, but as a human being. It seems like there are related terms/phrases that femmes get tagged with that are equally as insulting. There have been many times that I have seen very insulting assumptions about femme identity both from butches and other femmes. Thinking now about some of the posts bringing to light that we seem to discuss this in terms of butches far more.[/COLOR][/FONT]