Men with boobs.

[BullDog]

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


Serious Questions,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


Serious Questions,
Dylan

I'm confused. It seems that there is a flow between both femme Zone & Butch Zone threads. Thinking that BDSM specific and Trans Zones have threads in which everyone is invited to ask questions or get info. Right?

If someone comes into a thread that has a specific slant to it and is not that slant.... and just wants to mess with people, that's one thing. I certainly have taken in a lot with comments by femme's in this thread and MIB/Trans/IG folks. The thread did begin with a FIB slant, but, all of the differing thoughts from people no matter their ID has certainly been positive as far as I am concerned. Sure, some rough bumps, but, I think this has been a good conversation overall and respectful of some sensitive stuff. hell, i've benn smacked around on threads before. And sometimes deserved just that.

Then again, I am a peace-maker type... role since birth! Yikes, my Mom used to tell me I should be in work in some diplomatic capacity.... Mamma Mia!

Am I not understanding what is going on? Sorry, on pain meds.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

People are talking about this thread in other threads. I am respecting the space. I don't care what you think of me. I am being very direct. If you choose to see it as passive aggressive- what the fuck ever.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.

Originally Posted by BullDog

People are talking about this thread in other threads. I am respecting the space. I don't care what you think of me. I am being very direct. If you choose to see it as passive aggressive- what the fuck ever.

Thank you for respecting my right to think you're passive aggressive. I'm gonna go ahead and continue to do that.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.



Thank you for respecting my right to think you're passive aggressive. I'm gonna go ahead and continue to do that.

How come you are not cranky about the femmes discussing this thread in the femme thread?

Edit: calling a male butch she does deal with pronouns. That subject has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.

Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.

I don't know about the Male ID/she commentary, but I DO know that some of the people who posted in here about pronouns are now in that thread posting about how they didn't like the answers they got when they posted over here in this thread. That looks pretty P/A, no? I mean, it looks pretty P/A to me.

So...what? It's ok to join into a conversation in one thread, and drag it into another thread if you don't like the answer in the first thread, but if someone brings it up in the original thread, they're the asshole?

I like ya' and all, but honestly, it sounds like a double bind to me. We allllllllllllllll know if a butch busts up a femme thread, there's going to be hell to pay.

The pronoun convo started over here. Pissing and moaning in another thread, cuz you didn't like the answer you got over here is P/A.


Keepin' It Real,
Dylan

[apretty]

the forum needs a butt-zone.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I like ya' and all, but honestly, it sounds like a double bind to me. We allllllllllllllll know if a butch busts up a femme thread, there's going to be hell to pay.

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

Wow, can't see the forest for the trees. The assumptions behind the pronouns has everything to do with it. Why would She be emasculating if females are masculine too? It's definitely disrespecting a person's pronoun, but why emasculating? I believe that would be a question for male identified people.

It's past my bed time. Nitey night all.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

But But But, Potty...not everyone's as EZ goin' as you. And butches have already been accused of tossing their privilege around in this thread right here for voicing their upset about the pronoun issue. So, I just want to make sure I got it right...bear with me...voice your upset that others are picking your pronoun for you, get accused of tossing privilege around (even if you're female/woman). Waltz into a thread where some folks decided to drag the conversation (so they didn't have to hear anymore about how their excuses are offensive), and get accused of tossing privilege around (and trust me...after many years on these sites, I've played my fair share of these games and been told many many times, "It's not all about you, Dylan...femmes are talking...this is a femme thread")

The male ID'd butch being she'd incident you speak of would depend on context and the individual, no? (honestly, I have no idea which conversation this is)


Dylan

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.

Just an FYI...butches have come over and posted in the femme continuum thread (where some of this threads postings are being discussed). They've been (rather nicely) asked to stay on the topic, but no one is asking them to exit or giving them an earful that I can see.

[Heart]

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

If I'm not mistaken this thread is actually where all conversations being referred to in other threads originated. So why is it "super obnoxious" to draw attention here about what's being said there about said about this thread?

Is it "super obnoxious" to have brought shit from here over there? Is that passive aggressive? Have you called that out?

I mean truth, I personally don't really care that it was brought to another thread... I see that as cross posting.

But I do know that had Bull gone over there (or Dylan or me etc.) and complained (even about the "bring shit over there") it probably would have been portrayed (by a few not ALL) "the men folk" trying to control "the women folk"... which I find to be pretty insulting and painting butches and trans as stupid self-important knuckle dragging clods.

Not that I haven't seen that on occasion but I've seen that and more from all identities *shrugs*

One last thing, a probably the most important reason I'm even replying to your post. I met Bulldog for the first time last week at a party... and Bull actually kept cracking me up, one of the reasons? She was smiling and laughing so damn much... made me wanna laugh too.

Wasn't like one of those "not happy unless unhappy" people at all.

Done derailing, be great to see this convo get back on track.
Metro

[BullDog]

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

Oml... I'd definitely bring my earplugs... just in case you won...

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have am on of the femme's who pointed out, politely what I have seen and have witnessed when it came down to femme's using pro nouns against butches and even trans people and anyone else that falls under this spectrum.

I did not say ALL femme's do it, just happens to be that sometimes we tend to be a lil more on the vicious side (not all) and for some unknown reason, gender is attacked.

I don't know why this is, or why it is done, but it's clearly archived in sites we all belong to that it's calculated, mean and not done with good intent..

I also believe that we can make mistakes, and have, and we (not all) do our best to correct ourselves... I also feel and this is me coming from Snow space, that this thread has sparked, a lot of threads and conversations, be they offline, and online about gender, respect, dynamics, and boundaries. The Planet is new, and I *get* we are all sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over, but as I see it and I may be wrong, we are educating new people coming in, and even if we only reach one just one person, I think the long hours spent on posting, the frustrations, and the hard topics and discussions are worth having....

Thank you all for your patience for giving a damn,

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have am on of the femme's who pointed out, politely what I have seen and have witnessed when it came down to femme's using pro nouns against butches and even trans people and anyone else that falls under this spectrum.

I did not say ALL femme's do it, just happens to be that sometimes we tend to be a lil more on the vicious side (not all) and for some unknown reason, gender is attacked.

I don't know why this is, or why it is done, but it's clearly archived in sites we all belong to that it's calculated, mean and not done with good intent..

I also believe that we can make mistakes, and have, and we (not all) do our best to correct ourselves... I also feel and this is me coming from Snow space, that this thread has sparked, a lot of threads and conversations, be they offline, and online about gender, respect, dynamics, and boundaries. The Planet is new, and I *get* we are all sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over, but as I see it and I may be wrong, we are educating new people coming in, and even if we only reach one just one person, I think the long hours spent on posting, the frustrations, and the hard topics and discussions are worth having....
Thank you all for your patience for giving a damn,

Thank you Snowy...this is what I have been saying in all the threads (you too!)

[Nat]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

Yesterday I was totally thinking I was misreading the request for respect as a request for deference, and I was thinking that the femme-blaming was something I was somehow misreading and I was all prepared to take all the blame for having thoughts like this. I had my self-flagellation set all ready.

But you know what? I do think it's an issue worth examining. I'm not the only femme (after all) who has felt that there is a difference in tone regarding attitudes toward femmes within these conversations and I think this post is an example of that.

The other femme who spoke to this in the other thread clearly stated that she agreed it's important to use the right pronouns. I also try my best to use the right pronouns unless there is no way of knowing (in which case I default to "she") or in the case that using the correct pronoun would closet (and therefore negate) me (which would only happen in relationships). The conversation of, "does it seem like femmes are being spoken of and about in a disrespectful way in conversations regarding butch pronouns, gender and identity?" is not the same conversation as, "do you think it's okay for butches to ask for respectful use of correct pronouns?"

It has been stated that femmes mess up more than butches - and I'm even willing to believe that (though I would soooo love a way to quantify this). I also think some of the complaints about femmes have been from a respectful place. I do not think this post is from a respectful place and I don't think it is the lone post in this thread of the same ilk.