Men with boobs.

[PapaC]

Forgive me for this critical statement, because lord knows I write one-liners and off topic/drive by commentary (because I'm sometimes a huge brat)...

but I'm feeling like we're getting off topic in this thread, and once again we're de-constructing identities within this community and moving away from discussion stemming from the OP.

(I'm not a moderator, so if this comment isn't cool, my bad)

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Forgive me for this critical statement, because lord knows I write one-liners and off topic/drive by commentary (because I'm sometimes a huge brat)...

but I'm feeling like we're getting off topic in this thread, and once again we're de-constructing identities within this community and moving away from discussion stemming from the OP.

(I'm not a moderator, so if this comment isn't cool, my bad)

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

I think it almost funny that we are STILL having to do this, you would think as a community we would evolve and not continue to perpetuate the binary. I don't think it will happen unless we are open to listen and put into practice what is being talked about.

What chu think>?

[SuperFemme]

I think the more pertinent discussion is "how can we teach others how statements like "she's a short man with boobs are erasing and hurtful"?

Because we all know misogyny and sexism are hurtful. To EVERYONE.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I think it almost funny that we are STILL having to do this, you would think as a community we would evolve and not continue to perpetuate the binary. I don't think it will happen unless we are open to listen and put into practice what is being talked about.

What chu think>?

I think we should agree to:

a) Calling all butches she if they do not use the pronoun space

OR

b) Calling all butches he if they do not use the pronoun space.

Anything can be written in the pronoun space and it is expected that people will do their best to look to the left <--- prior to posting.

That is what I think.


Yes, I know I am

(and yes, this post is pretty much tongue in cheek...but it SURE would make life easier!)

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I think we should agree to:

a) Calling all butches she if they do not use the pronoun space

OR

b) Calling all butches he if they do not use the pronoun space.

Anything can be written in the pronoun space and it is expected that people will do their best to look to the left <--- prior to posting.

That is what I think.


Yes, I know I am

(and yes, this post is pretty much tongue in cheek...but it SURE would make life easier!)

if B is the chosen option...........well.... that will get my tits in ringer damn quick especially consider how much time has been spent in this thread alone pointing out that it's just utter bullshit to default to 'he' for butch pronouns. I never have been about making life easier............laughin..

----------
My name has been thrown out here several times.........laughin.....

First for those who are new. I have been ranting/raving/talking about this on-line pronoun issue for at least 10 years now. I have never let up, even when it seemed I was the only butch woman on the other site. It's important. I do have to say this.........I kind of giggle to myself when someone suggests that because I prefer female pronouns and have been known to be the one making footprints on the ceiling, I am somehow less butch or less masculine. Oh wait...........I said I giggled......dammittalltohell.... butches don't giggle.......I forget these things....I'm also not supposed to be called beautiful or like receiving flowers.

Snow............yep I do remember being called 'Miss'. I was kind of stunned at first, but then I got over that. I'm rarely ever given to violence, however I would have ripped her face off if I could have. I don't know if I ever thanked those who jumped up her shit for that........thank you if I didn't.

I do think femmes police butch pronouns and gender expression far more than butches do. I've never ever had a butch tell me they thought of all butches as he. I certainly have had femmes tell me that.......and the ones who have would shock folks if I named names. I do think I've been policed far more for claiming my cunt and my clit than for my wanting she as a pronoun. Interestingly that policing on both fronts has been done by femmes under the age of 45 or so.

I am also amazed that someone ALWAYS comes in a thread about butch woman and defends/talks about male id'd butches...........ALWAYS........EVERY TIME. I had somehow hoped it would not happen here.........but that was stupid on my part....

anyway.........I'm rambling now and I hope this is the right thread.........laughin...........I'm having a mentalpause day..........

[apretty]

Originally Posted by PapaC

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

because it reduces the woman to "almost a man" and chunks of flesh, like this:

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by apretty

because it reduces the woman to "almost a man" and chunks of flesh, like this:

you know devil's advocate here (examining myself now)...
it IS possible that my personal reaction to "short man with boobs" may stem from, my desire as a transman to change my body, and yes, that includes downplaying/hiding/changing my appearance and that typically means... not drawing attention to my boobs.

it's a tough personal examination, I have to admit, but one I'm willing to do. I have the 'comfort' of years of slow transition, because as odd as this might sound, the use of medical transition has created a dichotomy of sorts (again) but this time....

I'm passing as male, in my (mostly) female form and that's more comfortable for me. In that comfort, I'm re-discovering my form, re-defining it for myself, all the while doing it in a setting that feels comfortable to me.

Years ago, my ex husband reached out for my tits. It was supposed to be in a safe, intimate setting. He did nothing wrong. But in that instant, there was a rage in me, and I slapped his hands HARD and pushed him away in complete anger.

He unwittingly triggered a memory I had of my best friend at bible camp fondling my breasts and it was uncomfortable but I was young. it was one of those "put out or shut up" situations. I wasn't empowered, old enough, mature enough to say "NO".

For years, I felt like my boobs "reduced" me. like, it was all the world saw. The world (I felt) didn't see me past my body parts. The world (I felt), therefore downplayed any other qualities of my body and being (does that make sense?)

I realize now that it's possible I was triggered/uncomfortable during those exchanges because these boys/men were seeing me as a woman, not as something else. I don't vilify them any more. I no longer feel like their touch was "emasculating" me, or 'feminizing' me per se...

It wasn't until I met gay men (I'm sure there are straight men too) who are in touch with their own chests are erogenous areas that allowed me to feel some acceptance to my own body as is (for now). That, coupled with a fabulous understanding wife who 'gets me' has made all the difference.

In another thread, I talked about how I personally vowed to look at the plight of transwomen and my acceptance of their beings, and appreciation for their process as much as my own. I want to combat my own level of 'discomfort' . that's a hard admission. And I'm still working on it....

In the same way, I vowed that as part of my transition, I'd fully examine for myself how misogyny HAS played into my desire to transition. I can't escape this examination and more importantly? I won't.

Heart (and I hope she doesn't mind my mentioning this), has a history of having so much fucking mud slinged over to her direction, where even some friends of mine have called her statements transphobic. If there are reasons why I'm here in these threads, it's because I want my voice to be heard too, from a trans-perspective, because misogyny affects as all.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by PapaC

you know devil's advocate here (examining myself now)...
it IS possible that my personal reaction to "short man with boobs" may stem from, my desire as a transman to change my body, and yes, that includes downplaying/hiding/changing my appearance and that typically means... not drawing attention to my boobs.

it's a tough personal examination, I have to admit, but one I'm willing to do. I have the 'comfort' of years of slow transition, because as odd as this might sound, the use of medical transition has created a dichotomy of sorts (again) but this time....

I'm passing as male, in my (mostly) female form and that's more comfortable for me. In that comfort, I'm re-discovering my form, re-defining it for myself, all the while doing it in a setting that feels comfortable to me.

Years ago, my ex husband reached out for my tits. It was supposed to be in a safe, intimate setting. He did nothing wrong. But in that instant, there was a rage in me, and I slapped his hands HARD and pushed him away in complete anger.

He unwittingly triggered a memory I had of my best friend at bible camp fondling my breasts and it was uncomfortable but I was young. it was one of those "put out or shut up" situations. I wasn't empowered, old enough, mature enough to say "NO".

For years, I felt like my boobs "reduced" me. like, it was all the world saw. The world (I felt) didn't see me past my body parts. The world (I felt), therefore downplayed any other qualities of my body and being (does that make sense?)

I realize now that it's possible I was triggered/uncomfortable during those exchanges because these boys/men were seeing me as a woman, not as something else. I don't vilify them any more. I no longer feel like their touch was "emasculating" me, or 'feminizing' me per se...

It wasn't until I met gay men (I'm sure there are straight men too) who are in touch with their own chests are erogenous areas that allowed me to feel some acceptance to my own body as is (for now). That, coupled with a fabulous understanding wife who 'gets me' has made all the difference.

In another thread, I talked about how I personally vowed to look at the plight of transwomen and my acceptance of their beings, and appreciation for their process as much as my own. I want to combat my own level of 'discomfort' . that's a hard admission. And I'm still working on it....

In the same way, I vowed that as part of my transition, I'd fully examine for myself how misogyny HAS played into my desire to transition. I can't escape this examination and more importantly? I won't.

Heart (and I hope she doesn't mind my mentioning this), has a history of having so much fucking mud slinged over to her direction, where even some friends of mine have called her statements transphobic. If there are reasons why I'm here in these threads, it's because I want my voice to be heard too, from a trans-perspective, because misogyny affects as all.

Your entire post touches many thing in me and cuts across the divisions we all (butches, femmes, trans/inter-gebndered, et ALL) struggle so deeply with. Mysogyny certainly does touch us all.

I have to add that i appreciate the comments about Heart as I have been really having a hard time with her again being pissed-on when she brings up such relevant (yet, not easy to discuss) topics and issues. I'm tired of her (and a couple of other members) needing to exit threads as valuable as this one, especially when they are the ones bringing these critical matters to us all to attempt conversation and hopefully, take some new awareness in. frankly, it just makes me sad. She's kicked me in the butt a few times when I needed it and I am a better person for this because this makes me THINK!

I don't know if what I am saying is appropriate or not, but, I just needed to say it. I'm not cheerleading, I'm just speaking my truth and appreciate your being able to as well.

It seems that the last few posts from femmes might just move us through so much more and I hope this happens. Also, it feels so fucking good to be involved in a thread about such sensitive butch stuff with trans, MIBs and inter-gendered folks and other FIBs in which we are all comfortable talking about things and not falling into angry stances. This feels respectful and inclusive and frankly, has brought some tears to my eyes and a whole lot of pride to my heart and soul as a butch and member.