Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

i like Dylan's original post. The what do you like about transmen thread was blowing my mind. Most transguys i know would have hated most of that stuff. The they understand me better or they have been through so much and are therefore more sensitive. Dylan put it way better than i could summarize. Most transmen i have met do not date femmes. If they like feminine women, they prefer straight or bi women. (i know there are bi femmes.)

However, this stuff can veer toward dissing femmes, which makes me sad. Like Dylan's comment about if someone is dating only transmen, are they just seeing them as really butch butches. Well, what if they DO??? As long as whoever they are dating is fine with it. Seriously, if a transguy is with a queer femme, then he is probably a little more queer identified than the average transguy. He may not be squicked.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

So i appreciate this thread as a corrective to the other one, which i figured HAD to get a reaction at some point. But boy i hate to see this interrogation of the motives of femmes who like transguys.

i do not date transmen. i did for a second. And i realized, hey, these guys are men, and i am a dyke. Not going to work. That's why when Dylan seems to argue for some separate category for transmen, as somehow exempt from accusations of male privilege, i don't get it. i experience transmen as men. That's how it FEELS. That is the effect they have on me.

Yes, what is all this about (in red)? Again, this community seems so closed to me at times. Stereotypes abound!!!

I agree with you & Dylan that the other thread was/is not a very true representation at all. Certainly doesn't jive with what I understand from women I know that are with Transmen. A couple of them have sent me YUCK notes about the thread. And yes, I know others that just could not/can't date Transmen because they are dykes/lesbians as well as identifying as femme.

It is quite sad that this interrogation of a femme's motivation concerning attraction/dating/partnering/marrying a Transman exists here. I'm still looking for all this love of diversity..... Just look at some of the comments about stone sexuality, BDSM, some members being poly, etc......

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yes, what is all this about (in red)? Again, this community seems so closed to me at times. Stereotypes abound!!!

I agree with you & Dylan that the other thread was/is not a very true representation at all. Certainly doesn't jive with what I understand from women I know that are with Transmen. A couple of them have sent me YUCK notes about the thread. And yes, I know others that just could not/can't date Transmen because they are dykes/lesbians as well as identifying as femme.

It is quite sad that this interrogation of a femme's motivation concerning attraction/dating/partnering/marrying a Transman exists here. I'm still looking for all this love of diversity..... Just look at some of the comments about stone sexuality, BDSM, some members being poly, etc......

And I'm still wondering if *some* people who date men feel stripped of their 'community ID cards' if they admit they date men and that's why they feel soooooooo compelled to always keep their 'trans'men 'formerly female'


But...,
Dylan

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And I'm still wondering if *some* people who date men feel stripped of their 'community ID cards' if they admit they date men and that's why they feel soooooooo compelled to always keep their 'trans'men 'formerly female'


But...,
Dylan

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

[BullDog]

I don't see cis men as the be-all and end-all of man. I don't understand why some transmen would hold cis men up as the measuring stick of man and think they were being thought of us as less than if people don't see them exactly the same as cis men. I seriously don't get it. I don't think all transmen do this, but it seems that some do.

Some of the finest men that I am aware of are transmen. I seriously don't get why we are supposed to see all men as exactly the same- as if "man" is some monolithic entity with no variation.

Also, whether someone has transitioned or not has zilch to do with whether they are a man or woman as far as I am concerned. Gender is not biology. Not everyone can afford to transition, others may have health issues, others may not transition by choice, etc.

If I was going to date a a transwoman who was a femme (because femmes is who I date) or I have a friend who is a transwoman, am I supposed to just completely ignore her past, her childhood, what she has gone through in her life? Just because I know and acknowledge that she was born male doesn't mean I don't see her as a woman.

Perhaps saying "honoring someone's journey" is too woo woo, but seriously I think all of us here, no matter what our gender and sex are, have genders that we have earned and that we have made our own. Not all of us are transsexed or transgendered, but none of us came built to factory specifications, especially our genders. We didn't just take what was given us at birth and go through life not questioning things. We are who we are because of the personal journeys each one of us has taken. I honor everyone's journey here.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't see cis men as the be-all and end-all of man. I don't understand why some transmen would hold cis men up as the measuring stick of man and think they were being thought of us as less than if people don't see them exactly the same as cis men. I seriously don't get it. I don't think all transmen do this, but it seems that some do.

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.

If I was going to date a a transwoman who was a femme (because femmes is who I date) or I have a friend who is a transwoman, am I supposed to just completely ignore her past, her childhood, what she has gone through in her life? Just because I know and acknowledge that she was born male doesn't mean I don't see her as a woman.

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.



If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

Dylan, of all people you are the one who talks about trans and cis all the time and makes that big distinction, so I am confused about you now saying don't call people trans.

I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis.

Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite.

As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dylan, of all people you are the one who talks about trans and cis all the time and makes that big distinction, so I am confused about you now saying don't call people trans.

I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis.

Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite.

As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world.

If I can disengage you and Dylan for a moment - I realize you two hate to be interrupted...

I would like to know honestly more about what the highlighted part means to you.

I do think that alot of people are coming from the same place you are bulldog and in order for us all to understand each other we need to listen without defending and speak without offending - I am trying myself to do this in the hopes that this thread doesn't turn into a shouting match where no one is heard.

[Dylan]

Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.


Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Dylan

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

And that's the bottom line, in my opinion.

I can say "I don't want someone to be attracted to me because I don't have 'male' marked on my birth certificate" until I turn purple, but the fact of the matter is that there *are* people out there who are attracted to transmen (or whichever identifier you choose) primarily because they have transitioned.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with transmen simply because they fell for a really great man. And oh. He has this unique history.....completely inconsequential.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with women who are trilingual *solely* because being trilingual is a HUGE ASS turn-on to them.

Or what-have-you...

We are attracted to who/what we are attracted to and for our own sets of reasons, and no amount of reasoning/explaining/theorizing/etc... is going to change that for someone else. So if it's not in your own backyard, why would you concern yourself with it?

There are a *lot* of people out there who see transmen as TRANS MEN. A lot. Honestly, I'm not interested in changing their minds. I'd be interested in sharing who I am with them........maybe share my story......maybe not. But at the end of the day, I'm going to move on because there are just too many bigger things to worry about.

Am I off topic?

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Am I off topic?

No, you're not off topic.

[adorable]

I would like to say that I am not a femme, I don't ID that way and I wonder where that assumption comes from?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

Please notice my wording. I was very specific NOT to limit to 'femmes', because A) it's not my (whole) experience in real time and B) there are a few men who partner with men on this site...there are also a few butches...and I didn't want to leave them out and C) while I said 'partner' there are random butches and even guys who do this too. So, I was very specific not to say 'femmes'...even though it's an assumption that anyone who partners with guys is a femme (and that is totally another thread I'd ben interested in participating in)

It's my understanding, and it's been my understanding that this particular site is a QUEER site which embraces ALL gender/sex IDs. That was how this site was presented to me when I was invited over here.

If the men in this community ID as queer, and this is NOT a women-only space...why then would those men be expected to curtail celebrating their ID? I mean, everyone else on this site is 'allowed' (maybe even expected) to celebrate their ID...but men on this site are told, "It's not the right place"...why is it so limiting to members of this queer community? And I appreciate that you stated, it's not 'my place to moderate a community' (or however you worded it)...I'm just curious.

In my world, it would be fantastic if queer could mean something other than 'women into (some fashion/twist/flavor of) women' on these sites. I mean, seriously, when people's ID of queer is questioned, and it's 'assumed' that the only 'accepted' version of 'queer' is a woman who's into 'some form of woman' (whether that's 'formerly woman' or 'female-bodied' or somesuch) that just gets back to my original idea that *some* people ONLY see transmen as 'former women'.


Dylan

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Please notice my wording. I was very specific NOT to limit to 'femmes', because A) it's not my (whole) experience in real time and B) there are a few men who partner with men on this site...there are also a few butches...and I didn't want to leave them out and C) while I said 'partner' there are random butches and even guys who do this too. So, I was very specific not to say 'femmes'...even though it's an assumption that anyone who partners with guys is a femme (and that is totally another thread I'd ben interested in participating in)

Dylan, you were talking about women who were somehow afraid they'd lose their queer card. Two men are not going to have to worry about that.

Originally Posted by Dylan

It's my understanding, and it's been my understanding that this particular site is a QUEER site which embraces ALL gender/sex IDs. That was how this site was presented to me when I was invited over here.

If the men in this community ID as queer, and this is NOT a women-only space...why then would those men be expected to curtail celebrating their ID? I mean, everyone else on this site is 'allowed' (maybe even expected) to celebrate their ID...but men on this site are told, "It's not the right place"...why is it so limiting to members of this queer community? And I appreciate that you stated, it's not 'my place to moderate a community' (or however you worded it)...I'm just curious.

In my world, it would be fantastic if queer could mean something other than 'women into (some fashion/twist/flavor of) women' on these sites. I mean, seriously, when people's ID of queer is questioned, and it's 'assumed' that the only 'accepted' version of 'queer' is a woman who's into 'some form of woman' (whether that's 'formerly woman' or 'female-bodied' or somesuch) that just gets back to my original idea that *some* people ONLY see transmen as 'former women'.
Dylan

Dylan, it is not a women only space, and i gather the other site never was. No one expects that this should be. i agree that it would be a better if men here could celebrate themselves and their lives freely. But i personally would not want to participate in those moments. That doesn't mean they shouldn't happen.

Here is a stereotype to get you irritated. i find that some transmen when celebrating their gender ID's are sometimes a lot more sexist than cismen. i do not know why that is. But it has sometimes been my experience. i really don't need a celebration of self that includes sexism. We get a lot of it anyway. i can live without more. But my preferences are not the issue.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

Dylan, you were talking about women who were somehow afraid they'd lose their queer card. Two men are not going to have to worry about that.

On this particular site (and on the other site), and in this particular community, butches and men who partner with men or male-id'd butches DO 'lose their queer cards'. There is rampant homophobia, transphobia, and bi-phobia all over both of these sites. I have been told (on the other site) that I don't exist, because butches ONLY partner with femmes and/or women. I've heard many times that it's 'gross' when butches are into butches or men. I have seen whole posts that just contain line after line of 'Ewwwwwwwwwww'.

So, seriously, I was speaking across the spectrum. Again, queer is NOT just for women anymore

Dylan, it is not a women only space, and i gather the other site never was. No one expects that this should be. i agree that it would be a better if men here could celebrate themselves and their lives freely. But i personally would not want to participate in those moments. That doesn't mean they shouldn't happen.

Here is a stereotype to get you irritated. i find that some transmen when celebrating their gender ID's are sometimes a lot more sexist than cismen. i do not know why that is. But it has sometimes been my experience. i really don't need a celebration of self that includes sexism. We get a lot of it anyway. i can live without more. But my preferences are not the issue.

I get that you personally don't want to see it. That's fair enough. There's lots of things I personally don't want to see on this site. That's why I don't go into certain threads. I mean, if I go into a thread that I KNOW KNOW KNOW is going to squick me out, and I see something that squicks me out, I really have no one to blame but myself. I appreciate your honesty.

I get that your experience is different than mine. In my (me,me,me) personal experience, I have found the MOST sexist comments to have come from female ID'd butches who then use the excuse, "What? We're all women". That has been in real time as well as on these sites. I've found these comments even far more sexist than the comments made around me when I worked with roofers all day. So, we each have our own experiences...it doesn't squick me out when I see butches celebrating their butchness though. I mean, yeah, the sexist comments piss me off, but I don't find it inherent in butches celebrating their masculinity or butchness. I find it inherent in certain individuals.


Dylan

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Martina

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

I love the honesty in this statement. And to me this is what the thread is about. Why can men not celebrate being men? What is it that squicks you?

I bet a ton of money (ok, well really $5) that there are lots of TGs, male IDs, Trans, FTMs watching this conversation and wanting to say something but they just don't dare. I hope that will change.

What I know for sure as a woman that when I'm in public with my guy SOCIETY sees us as queer. We are not given straight privilege. Our experiences in the world are no different then the other Femme-Butch dynamic couples. I also know that the world doesn't see him as a man and that he sure can't celebrate his maleness out there either. Some Male IDs, FTMs, TGs and Trans can pass as men so can some butches. Some can all the time and some not.

What is it about being a man that makes people so uncomfortable? Why do we feel compelled as a community to silence that? In the gay male community it doesn't seem to be that way from what I've seen online and in real time.

[adorable]

I thought this was interesting.

http://gayrights.change.org/blog/vie...eople_is_bogus


And I thought this was really interesting too. It is more of a book review but it states some of the things that I have heard very well.

http://veganideal.org/content/our-bo...sexual-healing

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* happen to Own 2 guys, Nico and Grant. I don't see them as this brand spanking new version of *man* they are who they are, both with different journeys, stories and backgrounds. They are both members of our Queer community, be it here at home, or here on the interwebs. I am perturbed at the fact that someone would say that it squicks them out for them to go into a forum that has been spaced out for them, into a thread that is spaced out for them and for them to thump their chests if they so please (with permission of course).

We don't face any problem regarding our Queerdom around town, or at any functions or any of the places we frequent. I do feel that maybe just maybe I sense a lil misandry going on just a touch. I hope that at least one will come in here and speak of his place and his right to be in this community. Nico does not have the allowance since when we talk about it here at home his head wants to explode so I would rather it not explode here and him get put in the corner THEN have to deal with me, which is by far worse.

*I* this is me speaking from my me space, feel it to be oogy when expectations are put on these guys by ANYONE so when I see a post about glass slippers, and dual spirituality and how they are so sensitive cause they were women at one time... It oogs me out when I see it done to butches as well, cause lemme tell you, both my guys are sensitive, I AM NOT does this make me a guy? No... Both my guys clean, cook and make things comfy for me.. Does this make them female like? No... Both my guys are not the stereotypical masculines, I on the other hand for a girl am... That kind of fethisizing is creepy and just sets one up for failure...

*I* don't limit myself to a specific kind of person to date, I like to date and fuck whomever I am attracted to that falls into our beautiful gender spectrum. Happens to be that I fell for a guy. I don't feel that this does not leave me a space here in BF Planet though I never really fell into the umbrella of butch femme relationships. I found and find them to be to stiffling for *me* though it does work for others!!

*I* also get twitchy when I see men refered to as creepy crawlers and other names, here's why. I am a mother of 3 men, and frankly not all men regardless if they are queer, straight, gay, bi have faults, just as we do, not ALL men are going to be knuckle draggers, just as not all women fit into the whole *stepford* picture perfect kinda thang. I hope I really do that we can all agree that there is a place for the men in our community, and if they choose to have a thread where they go say whatever well we can either go read it and A. ignore it B. read it and start a thread discussing what is going on without being ugly and C. just be appreciative we have somewhere to go online

That is all I have a carpet to clean.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am perturbed at the fact that someone would say that it squicks them out for them to go into a forum that has been spaced out for them, into a thread that is spaced out for them and for them to thump their chests if they so please (with permission of course).

i would not go into a chest thumping thread in the trans zone and be squicked or criticize. There are such threads. i don't read them. i personally have no problem with their being there.

But let's say there was a lot chest thumping all over the place -- by whatever gender. That would alter my experience of the site. i would be less interested in it. Unless i am acquainted with the chest thumper, that stuff is sometimes triggering to me.

i don't want to experience that OR make the other person feel bad.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by adorable

What is it about being a man that makes people so uncomfortable? Why do we feel compelled as a community to silence that? In the gay male community it doesn't seem to be that way from what I've seen online and in real time.

Largely it's the sexism that is inherent in the construction of the identity. That has been a large part of the construction of masculinity in this culture. Most of my roommates have been gay men, and i have heard more cock jokes and seen more cock than i would like. Not offended. Their masculinity was constructed and evolved in THEIR adolescence, which is long past. To the extent that it was constructed in opposition to femininity, as a repudiation of it, that work been done. i know there is sexism in the gay community, but i don't FEEL it because it's mostly between them.

And in our community, even when a particular expression of maleness may NOT be sexist or misogynistic, it may resemble expressions that were, ones that i as a woman have experienced as damaging. So much depends on intent, and how are we to know that if we don't know the person.

i am not interested in it. If the person is a friend, if i know him well, if i KNOW the particular meanings that are part of HIS being and experience, then it does not resonate. It does not remind. It IS a celebration.

Otherwise, it's something i do not have to endure anymore. i work with adolescent boys. i like them. Most of my friends are straight men. i like men.

i have talked to friends through transition, friends who celebrated every change, every body alteration. i was happy for them. But, again, they were friends. i knew the meaning for them.

i am not interested in hearing the kind of pseudo-adolescent celebration of personal maleness or masculinity that sometimes goes on. i do not find it fun or amusing or endearing UNLESS it's a friend.

And in a stranger, certain expressions can resonate as aggressive, offensive, and demeaning to women. i have lived my LIFE making myself free from that.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Martina

Largely it's the sexism that is inherent in the construction of the identity. That has been a large part of the construction of masculinity in this culture. Most of my roommates have been gay men, and i have heard more cock jokes and seen more cock than i would like. Not offended. Their masculinity was constructed and evolved in THEIR adolescence, which is long past. To the extent that it was constructed in opposition to femininity, as a repudiation of it, that work been done. i know there is sexism in the gay community, but i don't FEEL it because it's mostly between them.

And in our community, even when a particular expression of maleness may NOT be sexist or misogynistic, it may resemble expressions that were, ones that i as a woman have experienced as damaging. So much depends on intent, and how are we to know that if we don't know the person.

i am not interested in it. If the person is a friend, if i know him well, if i KNOW the particular meanings that are part of HIS being and experience, then it does not resonate. It does not remind. It IS a celebration.

Otherwise, it's something i do not have to endure anymore. i work with adolescent boys. i like them. Most of my friends are straight men. i like men.

i have talked to friends through transition, friends who celebrated every change, every body alteration. i was happy for them. But, again, they were friends. i knew the meaning for them.

i am not interested in hearing the kind of pseudo-adolescent celebration of personal maleness or masculinity that sometimes goes on. i do not find it fun or amusing or endearing UNLESS it's a friend.

And in a stranger, certain expressions can resonate as aggressive, offensive, and demeaning to women. i have lived my LIFE making myself free from that.

Again, thank you for explaining this. I understand what you're saying.

I wonder if there is a difference when female ID'd butches do the same thing? I have seen that in real time. (And I know exactly what you mean about the adolecent celebration - I find that annoying too.)

I also wonder if that is what celebration is really about? Hopefully someone can describe it better then I, as a woman, ever could.

For me I see differences in gender. I don't see them as bad or good, just that they are. They are generalizations that apply to men and women. Not ALL men and women, but the majority - which is why the generalizations exist.

Maybe the emasculation of Trans, male IDs, TGs and FTMs comes from that sense of having been wronged by a male dominated society in general? (sorry, I am thinking and typing at the same time so it may not make sense outside of my head.) I know that I was personally harmed by cis men. Badly. Beaten, raped, abused, kept from being promoted, ect. Yet, I don't hold those who were born in the wrong body responsible for what happened to me. Friend or not. I don't see them differently because of my personal experience with cis men. In fact I don't hold cis men in general responsible for what happened to me by other cis men.

Can trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs be feminists? Is that at all apart of what sometimes happens with embracing maleness within our community? The expectation seems to be that in order to be a feminist one has to BE a woman, or happy about the fact that they were born a woman. Are feminist and Trans incongruant? Can women in our community tolerate trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs only on the periphery? Is there a sense that being trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs is a choice that people make thereby chosing to align with the "other" or "opposing" team?

I don't really have the answers to these questions, but if I were sitting in a room with all of you I would be interested in having a discussion about all of these things. I do think about it often. And I know we see it play out right in front of us.