Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[Martina]

i like Dylan's original post. The what do you like about transmen thread was blowing my mind. Most transguys i know would have hated most of that stuff. The they understand me better or they have been through so much and are therefore more sensitive. Dylan put it way better than i could summarize. Most transmen i have met do not date femmes. If they like feminine women, they prefer straight or bi women. (i know there are bi femmes.)

However, this stuff can veer toward dissing femmes, which makes me sad. Like Dylan's comment about if someone is dating only transmen, are they just seeing them as really butch butches. Well, what if they DO??? As long as whoever they are dating is fine with it. Seriously, if a transguy is with a queer femme, then he is probably a little more queer identified than the average transguy. He may not be squicked.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

So i appreciate this thread as a corrective to the other one, which i figured HAD to get a reaction at some point. But boy i hate to see this interrogation of the motives of femmes who like transguys.

i do not date transmen. i did for a second. And i realized, hey, these guys are men, and i am a dyke. Not going to work. That's why when Dylan seems to argue for some separate category for transmen, as somehow exempt from accusations of male privilege, i don't get it. i experience transmen as men. That's how it FEELS. That is the effect they have on me.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

i like Dylan's original post. The what do you like about transmen thread was blowing my mind. Most transguys i know would have hated most of that stuff. The they understand me better or they have been through so much and are therefore more sensitive. Dylan put it way better than i could summarize. Most transmen i have met do not date femmes. If they like feminine women, they prefer straight or bi women. (i know there are bi femmes.)

However, this stuff can veer toward dissing femmes, which makes me sad. Like Dylan's comment about if someone is dating only transmen, are they just seeing them as really butch butches. Well, what if they DO??? As long as whoever they are dating is fine with it. Seriously, if a transguy is with a queer femme, then he is probably a little more queer identified than the average transguy. He may not be squicked.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

So i appreciate this thread as a corrective to the other one, which i figured HAD to get a reaction at some point. But boy i hate to see this interrogation of the motives of femmes who like transguys.

i do not date transmen. i did for a second. And i realized, hey, these guys are men, and i am a dyke. Not going to work. That's why when Dylan seems to argue for some separate category for transmen, as somehow exempt from accusations of male privilege, i don't get it. i experience transmen as men. That's how it FEELS. That is the effect they have on me.

I agree with almost everything in your post. I purpled the one part, because you misquoted me. I said, "see them as really butch women". 1. Some transguys ID as butch. But 2. It's none of my business what goes on between two people in a relationship.

My question wasn't pertaining to anyone in particular...it's just something I wonder. I don't have any male friends whose partners view them as really butch women...but that doesn't mean I don't know of couples in which a transguy's partner DOES view him as 'formerly female', and I notice very often how ThisPartner will do things to 'put him in his place'. They are very subtle things, but they are there. ThisPartner will occasionally she him, and she'll just say things. So, yeah, I DO wonder. And maybe ThisGuy is squicked and maybe he's not. I don't really know as I don't really talk to these people. But I still wonder. I also wonder many other things.

I also said, "If someone only dates butches and transmen"...meaning (in the shortest form) masculine women and transmen.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Dylan, you make a very big distinction between cis and transmen. That's two different categories of men right? Why would I be seeing all men exactly the same if some are considered trans and some are considered cis?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dylan, you make a very big distinction between cis and transmen. That's two different categories of men right? Why would I be seeing all men exactly the same if some are considered trans and some are considered cis?

Dylan I asked you this question and you never answered. I didn't accuse you of backpeddling, waffling, deflecting or avoiding. I just figured you didn't want to answer it- cuz really you are not obligated.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Betenoire, I don't think all queers are lesbians. I don't think all queer femmes are lesbians. There I've said it twice now- this time with a little refinement.

I was referring to this statement:

Originally Posted by BullDog

How does this work if one is queer?

"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?

Originally Posted by BullDog

My first thought is do the women dating them have any rules of their own, like say see me for the queer that I am and not just interchangeable with straight women? Then again, what would I know. I am just a simple lesbian.

Wow, way to bait. Nobody implied in any fashion that lesbians were too "simple" to understand anything.

And I can assure you that nobody sees me as interchangeable with a straight woman.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I was referring to this statement:



"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?



Wow, way to bait. Nobody implied in any fashion that lesbians were too "simple" to understand anything.

And I can assure you that nobody sees me as interchangeable with a straight woman.

Well gee Betenoire, you seem to think I don't even know gay men exist and that I think all queers are lesbians. Anyway, I seriously don't think it matters how up to speed or not I am on queer identities in terms of this discussion.

To me it looks like a lot of double standards, but hey if people are happy go for it.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well gee Betenoire, you seem to think I don't even know gay men exist and that I think all queers are lesbians. Anyway, I seriously don't think it matters how up to speed or not I am on queer identities in terms of this discussion.

To me it looks like a lot of double standards, but hey if people are happy go for it.

So, when people ask you to clarify a statement you're going to use snark in order to get out of clarifying? Neat.

And of course I know that you know Gay men exist. You said that Bisexual Men tend to hang out in the Gay Male community rather than in the Queer community - so I gathered from that that you were aware of the existence of the Gay Male.

What looks like a lot of double-standards to you, and in which way?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

So, when people ask you to clarify a statement you're going to use snark in order to get out of clarifying? Neat.

And of course I know that you know Gay men exist. You said that Bisexual Men tend to hang out in the Gay Male community rather than in the Queer community - so I gathered from that that you were aware of the existence of the Gay Male.

What looks like a lot of double-standards to you, and in which way?

What was I supposed to clarify? I scrolled up, but not sure.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

What was I supposed to clarify? I scrolled up, but not sure.

And quoting myself:

Originally Posted by betenoire

I was referring to this statement:

"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire View Post
I was referring to this statement:

"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?

I was asking a question, not making a statement. My own view is if someone is queer, they are queer no matter who they date. I don't understand why it's a requirement for someone who might be attracted to transmen and/or FTMs who are part of a queer community to also be obligated- at least theoretically- be willing to date cis men. I seriously don't get it.

As to the double standards, I agree with Martina. This is how it looks to me.

Originally Posted by Martina

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

i like Dylan's original post. The what do you like about transmen thread was blowing my mind. Most transguys i know would have hated most of that stuff. The they understand me better or they have been through so much and are therefore more sensitive. Dylan put it way better than i could summarize. Most transmen i have met do not date femmes. If they like feminine women, they prefer straight or bi women. (i know there are bi femmes.)

However, this stuff can veer toward dissing femmes, which makes me sad. Like Dylan's comment about if someone is dating only transmen, are they just seeing them as really butch butches. Well, what if they DO??? As long as whoever they are dating is fine with it. Seriously, if a transguy is with a queer femme, then he is probably a little more queer identified than the average transguy. He may not be squicked.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

So i appreciate this thread as a corrective to the other one, which i figured HAD to get a reaction at some point. But boy i hate to see this interrogation of the motives of femmes who like transguys.

i do not date transmen. i did for a second. And i realized, hey, these guys are men, and i am a dyke. Not going to work. That's why when Dylan seems to argue for some separate category for transmen, as somehow exempt from accusations of male privilege, i don't get it. i experience transmen as men. That's how it FEELS. That is the effect they have on me.

Yes, what is all this about (in red)? Again, this community seems so closed to me at times. Stereotypes abound!!!

I agree with you & Dylan that the other thread was/is not a very true representation at all. Certainly doesn't jive with what I understand from women I know that are with Transmen. A couple of them have sent me YUCK notes about the thread. And yes, I know others that just could not/can't date Transmen because they are dykes/lesbians as well as identifying as femme.

It is quite sad that this interrogation of a femme's motivation concerning attraction/dating/partnering/marrying a Transman exists here. I'm still looking for all this love of diversity..... Just look at some of the comments about stone sexuality, BDSM, some members being poly, etc......

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yes, what is all this about (in red)? Again, this community seems so closed to me at times. Stereotypes abound!!!

I agree with you & Dylan that the other thread was/is not a very true representation at all. Certainly doesn't jive with what I understand from women I know that are with Transmen. A couple of them have sent me YUCK notes about the thread. And yes, I know others that just could not/can't date Transmen because they are dykes/lesbians as well as identifying as femme.

It is quite sad that this interrogation of a femme's motivation concerning attraction/dating/partnering/marrying a Transman exists here. I'm still looking for all this love of diversity..... Just look at some of the comments about stone sexuality, BDSM, some members being poly, etc......

And I'm still wondering if *some* people who date men feel stripped of their 'community ID cards' if they admit they date men and that's why they feel soooooooo compelled to always keep their 'trans'men 'formerly female'


But...,
Dylan

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And I'm still wondering if *some* people who date men feel stripped of their 'community ID cards' if they admit they date men and that's why they feel soooooooo compelled to always keep their 'trans'men 'formerly female'


But...,
Dylan

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

[BullDog]

I don't see cis men as the be-all and end-all of man. I don't understand why some transmen would hold cis men up as the measuring stick of man and think they were being thought of us as less than if people don't see them exactly the same as cis men. I seriously don't get it. I don't think all transmen do this, but it seems that some do.

Some of the finest men that I am aware of are transmen. I seriously don't get why we are supposed to see all men as exactly the same- as if "man" is some monolithic entity with no variation.

Also, whether someone has transitioned or not has zilch to do with whether they are a man or woman as far as I am concerned. Gender is not biology. Not everyone can afford to transition, others may have health issues, others may not transition by choice, etc.

If I was going to date a a transwoman who was a femme (because femmes is who I date) or I have a friend who is a transwoman, am I supposed to just completely ignore her past, her childhood, what she has gone through in her life? Just because I know and acknowledge that she was born male doesn't mean I don't see her as a woman.

Perhaps saying "honoring someone's journey" is too woo woo, but seriously I think all of us here, no matter what our gender and sex are, have genders that we have earned and that we have made our own. Not all of us are transsexed or transgendered, but none of us came built to factory specifications, especially our genders. We didn't just take what was given us at birth and go through life not questioning things. We are who we are because of the personal journeys each one of us has taken. I honor everyone's journey here.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't see cis men as the be-all and end-all of man. I don't understand why some transmen would hold cis men up as the measuring stick of man and think they were being thought of us as less than if people don't see them exactly the same as cis men. I seriously don't get it. I don't think all transmen do this, but it seems that some do.

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.

If I was going to date a a transwoman who was a femme (because femmes is who I date) or I have a friend who is a transwoman, am I supposed to just completely ignore her past, her childhood, what she has gone through in her life? Just because I know and acknowledge that she was born male doesn't mean I don't see her as a woman.

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.



If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

Dylan, of all people you are the one who talks about trans and cis all the time and makes that big distinction, so I am confused about you now saying don't call people trans.

I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis.

Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite.

As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Dylan

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

And that's the bottom line, in my opinion.

I can say "I don't want someone to be attracted to me because I don't have 'male' marked on my birth certificate" until I turn purple, but the fact of the matter is that there *are* people out there who are attracted to transmen (or whichever identifier you choose) primarily because they have transitioned.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with transmen simply because they fell for a really great man. And oh. He has this unique history.....completely inconsequential.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with women who are trilingual *solely* because being trilingual is a HUGE ASS turn-on to them.

Or what-have-you...

We are attracted to who/what we are attracted to and for our own sets of reasons, and no amount of reasoning/explaining/theorizing/etc... is going to change that for someone else. So if it's not in your own backyard, why would you concern yourself with it?

There are a *lot* of people out there who see transmen as TRANS MEN. A lot. Honestly, I'm not interested in changing their minds. I'd be interested in sharing who I am with them........maybe share my story......maybe not. But at the end of the day, I'm going to move on because there are just too many bigger things to worry about.

Am I off topic?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

Please notice my wording. I was very specific NOT to limit to 'femmes', because A) it's not my (whole) experience in real time and B) there are a few men who partner with men on this site...there are also a few butches...and I didn't want to leave them out and C) while I said 'partner' there are random butches and even guys who do this too. So, I was very specific not to say 'femmes'...even though it's an assumption that anyone who partners with guys is a femme (and that is totally another thread I'd ben interested in participating in)

It's my understanding, and it's been my understanding that this particular site is a QUEER site which embraces ALL gender/sex IDs. That was how this site was presented to me when I was invited over here.

If the men in this community ID as queer, and this is NOT a women-only space...why then would those men be expected to curtail celebrating their ID? I mean, everyone else on this site is 'allowed' (maybe even expected) to celebrate their ID...but men on this site are told, "It's not the right place"...why is it so limiting to members of this queer community? And I appreciate that you stated, it's not 'my place to moderate a community' (or however you worded it)...I'm just curious.

In my world, it would be fantastic if queer could mean something other than 'women into (some fashion/twist/flavor of) women' on these sites. I mean, seriously, when people's ID of queer is questioned, and it's 'assumed' that the only 'accepted' version of 'queer' is a woman who's into 'some form of woman' (whether that's 'formerly woman' or 'female-bodied' or somesuch) that just gets back to my original idea that *some* people ONLY see transmen as 'former women'.


Dylan

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Please notice my wording. I was very specific NOT to limit to 'femmes', because A) it's not my (whole) experience in real time and B) there are a few men who partner with men on this site...there are also a few butches...and I didn't want to leave them out and C) while I said 'partner' there are random butches and even guys who do this too. So, I was very specific not to say 'femmes'...even though it's an assumption that anyone who partners with guys is a femme (and that is totally another thread I'd ben interested in participating in)

Dylan, you were talking about women who were somehow afraid they'd lose their queer card. Two men are not going to have to worry about that.

Originally Posted by Dylan

It's my understanding, and it's been my understanding that this particular site is a QUEER site which embraces ALL gender/sex IDs. That was how this site was presented to me when I was invited over here.

If the men in this community ID as queer, and this is NOT a women-only space...why then would those men be expected to curtail celebrating their ID? I mean, everyone else on this site is 'allowed' (maybe even expected) to celebrate their ID...but men on this site are told, "It's not the right place"...why is it so limiting to members of this queer community? And I appreciate that you stated, it's not 'my place to moderate a community' (or however you worded it)...I'm just curious.

In my world, it would be fantastic if queer could mean something other than 'women into (some fashion/twist/flavor of) women' on these sites. I mean, seriously, when people's ID of queer is questioned, and it's 'assumed' that the only 'accepted' version of 'queer' is a woman who's into 'some form of woman' (whether that's 'formerly woman' or 'female-bodied' or somesuch) that just gets back to my original idea that *some* people ONLY see transmen as 'former women'.
Dylan

Dylan, it is not a women only space, and i gather the other site never was. No one expects that this should be. i agree that it would be a better if men here could celebrate themselves and their lives freely. But i personally would not want to participate in those moments. That doesn't mean they shouldn't happen.

Here is a stereotype to get you irritated. i find that some transmen when celebrating their gender ID's are sometimes a lot more sexist than cismen. i do not know why that is. But it has sometimes been my experience. i really don't need a celebration of self that includes sexism. We get a lot of it anyway. i can live without more. But my preferences are not the issue.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

Dylan, you were talking about women who were somehow afraid they'd lose their queer card. Two men are not going to have to worry about that.

On this particular site (and on the other site), and in this particular community, butches and men who partner with men or male-id'd butches DO 'lose their queer cards'. There is rampant homophobia, transphobia, and bi-phobia all over both of these sites. I have been told (on the other site) that I don't exist, because butches ONLY partner with femmes and/or women. I've heard many times that it's 'gross' when butches are into butches or men. I have seen whole posts that just contain line after line of 'Ewwwwwwwwwww'.

So, seriously, I was speaking across the spectrum. Again, queer is NOT just for women anymore

Dylan, it is not a women only space, and i gather the other site never was. No one expects that this should be. i agree that it would be a better if men here could celebrate themselves and their lives freely. But i personally would not want to participate in those moments. That doesn't mean they shouldn't happen.

Here is a stereotype to get you irritated. i find that some transmen when celebrating their gender ID's are sometimes a lot more sexist than cismen. i do not know why that is. But it has sometimes been my experience. i really don't need a celebration of self that includes sexism. We get a lot of it anyway. i can live without more. But my preferences are not the issue.

I get that you personally don't want to see it. That's fair enough. There's lots of things I personally don't want to see on this site. That's why I don't go into certain threads. I mean, if I go into a thread that I KNOW KNOW KNOW is going to squick me out, and I see something that squicks me out, I really have no one to blame but myself. I appreciate your honesty.

I get that your experience is different than mine. In my (me,me,me) personal experience, I have found the MOST sexist comments to have come from female ID'd butches who then use the excuse, "What? We're all women". That has been in real time as well as on these sites. I've found these comments even far more sexist than the comments made around me when I worked with roofers all day. So, we each have our own experiences...it doesn't squick me out when I see butches celebrating their butchness though. I mean, yeah, the sexist comments piss me off, but I don't find it inherent in butches celebrating their masculinity or butchness. I find it inherent in certain individuals.


Dylan