Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[AtLast]

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

[Corkey]

Ya' know it really comes down to listening to each other. We can't change who each one is, we have to accept. That's all there is to it. There is no war, what there is, is human behavior. There will always be personalities who don't get along, that's human. There will always be those who express themselves differently than another, and that's just fine (with me). What I don't want to see is our labels getting in the way of our humanity. I can agree to disagree, and still be (your) friend. I don't take (your) label and twist it into something that has no resemblance to who you say you are, that would be asinine. This is why I always look over <----- to see how one ID's. If it isn't there then I use gender neutral pronouns until I find out.
I will not always have in common (your) life experience, it doesn't mean I don't understand it, I just haven't lived it.
I will always have (your) back, we are all humans here living a human experience, how we interact is important. Let's try to understand each other and LISTEN. K?
Each and every one of you are important to me and this community, common ground is achievable.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Ya' know it really comes down to listening to each other. We can't change who each one is, we have to accept. That's all there is to it. There is no war, what there is, is human behavior. There will always be personalities who don't get along, that's human. There will always be those who express themselves differently than another, and that's just fine (with me). What I don't want to see is our labels getting in the way of our humanity. I can agree to disagree, and still be (your) friend. I don't take (your) label and twist it into something that has no resemblance to who you say you are, that would be asinine. This is why I always look over <----- to see how one ID's. If it isn't there then I use gender neutral pronouns until I find out.
I will not always have in common (your) life experience, it doesn't mean I don't understand it, I just haven't lived it.
I will always have (your) back, we are all humans here living a human experience, how we interact is important. Let's try to understand each other and LISTEN. K?
Each and every one of you are important to me and this community, common ground is achievable.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

I think these two posts say a lot.

I have to be honest...from my ME place.

I don't see this thread accomplishing very much (no offense, Atlast). Perhaps I'm still jaded after the Borders And Bridges thread (before some of y'all's time...same premise basically..it went straight down the shitter and got really ugly, then created and even uglier spin off thread with some of the most transphobic and evil shit I've ever seen posted). Perhaps, I think it's just going to be a lot of the same old 'butch bonding' stuff that never really goes anywhere. Perhaps I think it'll just be a little smooth over kumbaya until the next eruption. And why do I think there'll be another eruption? Because of the two posts above. We don't listen, and because of that, we don't trust.

How do I know we don't listen?

Because I posted something that as a transman *happens*. The first response is a person outside the male ID telling me it doesn't happen. Met, of course you don't see it happen...you're not male ID'd. I wasn't *asking* you if it happened, I was telling you it happens. Another female ID'd butch says the same thing. Again...I wasn't asking if it happens...I'm telling you it happens. Just like y'all say male pronouns are the default. Another male ID'd butch says the same thing, and he's told (again), "Uh Uh, this doesn't happen." No offense, but um, just cuz you don't see it, it doesn't mean its not happening.
The other response was, "Yeah? It goes both ways, dude! Here's what WE deal with."

Now, I'm NOT rehashing this! I'm merely pointing oput how we DO NOT listen, and how that turns into the b.s. that takes place. This is why people don't feel heard, and this is how the distrust happens, and this is why it's always so ugly when the shit blows up.


Dylan

[Corkey]

Perhaps Dylan, we need to be clearer when we say these things. Time date stamp kinds of reality. I can't address stuff that happened before my time, I can only address what has happened during my time. I prefer to leave the dash site shit at the dash site and not bring it here. New beginnings and all. I am always willing to listen, and yes some harsh shit has happened, to all genders, not going to say it hasn't. However I want to try to have a new day, with us all having our say, our life experience just as we live it, in real time. Online is not always real to me, there are trolls, instigators and just some nasty humans who lurk and pounce. Yea those folks need to knock it off with the shit-pot-stir, it goes nowhere and frankly is annoying the hell out of me. I do think there is more in common we all have than our differences, and I would be honored to explore those commonalities with all of (you).

[Jet]

I don't jive with anyone here as a TG/Transmen. I view things very differently. But I appreciate your intent and hope other folks will benefit.

[waxnrope]

It feels like some strong contrasts here, and admittedly, I don't know nothing about the past or about "gender wars." But I hear/see some overtures of bonding going on, the kumbaya as Dylan says. Then, there's a "but wait" kind of thing, where the past, the ugly past is brought up over and over again. Whatever that past might be, whatever the pattern/s that exist, isn't it possible to try again, to move forward. Kumbaya used to make everyone feel kind of good, albeit, short term. Perhaps we can take the feel good, the apparent progress (and I don't know if this is progress, but it feels like it) and not forget the past explosions, but take that which is good and push forward ... never forgetting what it could become? I'm not sure if this makes any sense. I'm approaching the time of night that my brain slows way down, but I hope that you get at least some of what I'm saying.
I really am disturbed to hear about all of this, and had hoped that it was possible to bond with, and make friends with, some of the butches and transmen here. I don't care about how you ID, and hope that you feel the same about me. And, yeah, Corky, we are just friggin' humans in the final count.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

"Perhaps, I think it's just going to be a lot of the same old 'butch bonding' stuff that never really goes anywhere. Perhaps I think it'll just be a little smooth over kumbaya until the next eruption."


Dylan

It's like you're expecting something bad to happen. From my life experience the thoughts that you put out is what the universe gives back. The OP was inclusive of all of us, butch/transmen. I think if anyone of us saw someone being transphobic they would be reported. Otherwise the thread would be hypocritical. I don't even know what Dash is aside from that shit my aunt used to sprinkle on her vegetables. I think everyone here has good intentions.

[Dylan]

Organic, I certainly didn't say people didn't have good intentions.

I have never seen a 'butch bonding' thread EVER go anywhere.

I don't understand your dash reference


Yeah, I Watched The Secret Too,
Dylan...will come back to this thread when an acceptable topic of conversation has been agreed upon, because I'm really not up for the, "What should we talk about...no, I don't like that topic...how 'bout? No! Come on, let's just bond!" game that's going on now.

[Corkey]

I think Dylan you are selling folks short. What is it YOU would like to talk about? or do you just want to continue to kavetch about the past?

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I don't understand your dash reference

"The Dash Site" in refrence to another site that a lot of the folks here including the owners of this site belong to or did belong to..

I'm not sure where the term "Dash" came from.. *shrugs*

OK, I'm game.. here is a topic..

We were talking a bit about dating "morals" and "ethics".. What do you consider a "cock block", the act of getting in the way of a potintial partner or hook up? Have you done it? Have you seen it done? How do you react? Do you just hate the term's guts and can't be bothered with thinking about it? Is there really even such a thing as "cock blocking", or is just a way to cover up being insecure?

I'm just throwing that one out there because I think that it may be a common ground that we can relate to.. Good bad or indiffrent.

Maybe tell a funny story in relation to?

On a deeper level, I realize how this can be seen as the stereotypical "frat boy" talk, but it doesn't have to be.. It can be what we make it. If the topic is uncalled for by the thread, feel free to ignore it and carry on.. lol.. I just think it could be fun..

-Tony

PS- "cock block" is not a term owned by male ID's in my head.. Kind of like the "cock on the walk" type of thing *shrugs* Just don't want people thinking that I'm just catering to tha boi/ys

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

"The Dash Site" in refrence to another site that a lot of the folks here including the owners of this site belong to or did belong to..

I'm not sure where the term "Dash" came from.. *shrugs*

OK, I'm game.. here is a topic..

We were talking a bit about dating "morals" and "ethics".. What do you consider a "cock block", the act of getting in the way of a potintial partner or hook up? Have you done it? Have you seen it done? How do you react? Do you just hate the term's guts and can't be bothered with thinking about it? Is there really even such a thing as "cock blocking", or is just a way to cover up being insecure?

I'm just throwing that one out there because I think that it may be a common ground that we can relate to.. Good bad or indiffrent.

Maybe tell a funny story in relation to?

On a deeper level, I realize how this can be seen as the stereotypical "frat boy" talk, but it doesn't have to be.. It can be what we make it. If the topic is uncalled for by the thread, feel free to ignore it and carry on.. lol.. I just think it could be fun..

-Tony

PS- "cock block" is not a term owned by male ID's in my head.. Kind of like the "cock on the walk" type of thing *shrugs* Just don't want people thinking that I'm just catering to tha boi/ys

I don't think I have ever really been cock blocked I have to think about that a little more. I have totally done it though. lol For her own protection though I wouldn't let anyone hook up with this friend of mine in good conscious. He's a hound dog, goes after anything that gives him attention. She was a nice woman so hopefully I saved her some heartache.

[AtLast]

Just going to add to my own post as I really don’t want to over post as the OP. This is everyone’s thread.

But some of the discussion about listening and trust building brought to wounding and just how deep and long-term wounds from other/prior thread - even in a different site- can fester. Seems human to me, really. I have some of these wounds and I know that it can take a long time to process these and get to the other side with them. It really does involve trust; especially online for me.

Some of the more controversial issues might get side stepped until people just feel like they can handle posting anything. And they ,might just have to do their own internal/personal healing or even forgiving processes before taking a chance. I don’t think there is a thing wrong with this.

Hopefully, this thread will take a new direction in the bonding/friendship department. Hope so. But, my guess is that all of us are going to have to walk on tip toes some until we get to a place that our own wounds immediately take over. There is no way I would have even started the thread if I had not tried to put a lot of things in perspective (and certainly not just my own perspectives).

LOL… you bet, I have to tell myself… hey, you don’t know what that person really means, if you don’t ask for clarification. So, shut-up, and try to get them and don’t make a dogging post- from the hip.

I agree there are issues that are deeply rooted that we need to deal with… but I am so into letting people take their own time with things and not jumping to conclusions because of past threads and discussions. Not an easy task!

It might be that the thread dies for a bit and then gets bumped and this could happen off and on just due to how we all need to pace ourselves. I actually believe that the hard stuff will get talked about… in the right time and trust frame…

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

[Kosmo]

Here is the issue for me: I have none. I've never been wounded. I can only speak from an observers point of view. While this may not help the discussion and may seem naive, I would like to know what we have in common.

What I am impressed with is that other folks, like femmes, can delve into some insightful stuff. They look inside of themselves to find those hurts and where they might originate from. They have discussions, they give support and help others find a voice even when they don't agree. They have a bonding that I'm a little envious of.

I'm very confident about who I am, but the world can look so alien to me as I look upon it from my vantage point. At times I feel invisible. Just me alone with my identity and at times I feel like all eyes are on me. Trying to figure me out. How do you find your comfort zone in the world?

Sometimes I see us as phantoms. Coming and going almost stealthily and blending in until that moment when you notice that someone 'sees' you.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Here is the issue for me: I have none. I've never been wounded. I can only speak from an observers point of view. While this may not help the discussion and may seem naive, I would like to know what we have in common.

What I am impressed with is that other folks, like femmes, can delve into some insightful stuff. They look inside of themselves to find those hurts and where they might originate from. They have discussions, they give support and help others find a voice even when they don't agree. They have a bonding that I'm a little envious of.

I'm very confident about who I am, but the world can look so alien to me as I look upon it from my vantage point. At times I feel invisible. Just me alone with my identity and at times I feel like all eyes are on me. Trying to figure me out. How do you find your comfort zone in the world?

Sometimes I see us as phantoms. Coming and going almost stealthily and blending in until that moment when you notice that someone 'sees' you.

This is very true for me, too. I see femmes do this often... the support, the help in finding a voice. And respecting the voices of others. Sure, they disagree, but, the end results look so different to me than among us most of the time. They seem to be able to put aside so much that honestly, gets in our way all of the time. There is some tough stuff being discussed by them in the femme side of this thread, yet, I sense honest interchanges that can get through the BS in the end. They own their own shit, I think. I know, I can't generalize, but, I really do connect with your point, here.

I think you also bring up something else very important - self-confidence. This can be mis-read as arrogance, but it isn't. It's just plain healthy, self-knowledge with no need for defensiveness. Not so easy to develop, but a damn good goal!

Shit, I was going to be quiet...

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

This is very true for me, too. I see femmes do this often... the support, the help in finding a voice. And respecting the voices of others. Sure, they disagree, but, the end results look so different to me than among us most of the time. They seem to be able to put aside so much that honestly, gets in our way all of the time. There is some tough stuff being discussed by them in the femme side of this thread, yet, I sense honest interchanges that can get through the BS in the end. They own their own shit, I think. I know, I can't generalize, but, I really do connect with your point, here.

I think you also bring up something else very important - self-confidence. This can be mis-read as arrogance, but it isn't. It's just plain healthy, self-knowledge with no need for defensiveness. Not so easy to develop, but a damn good goal!

Shit, I was going to be quiet...

I think someone else mentioned having confidence or a strong sense of self. I have a very strong sense of self. I am not perfect but I don't hold on to things and if someone tries to make me feel bad or say something snarky because of or about who I am, I chalk it up to them having the problem not me. Then its automatically off of my shoulders and out of my mind. There is a lot less stress in my life because of it. Now if someone is making a valid point about my actions then I will change them or work on changing myself. Otherwise I just go with the flow and if I don't like the flow, I find another flow to hop into.

[Kosmo]

How do you find your balance in the world? Your center?

I used to watch people as I moved about. I think to see if they looked at me, you know? Waiting for some reaction to my presence in their world.
Now I only look forward and while I feel people watch me, it's empowering to simply move with confidence, like I'm moving in normal speed and the world around me is moving in slow motion.

I'll walk in a women's washroom, grab a stall, wash my hands and shake them, maybe run my damp hands through my hair (if I'm wearing a hat) and then walk out. I'm making more of an effort to take my space in the world. Move about it because it's also mine. Not caring who's looking or even what they're saying.

I was recently walking towards a women's washroom and a guy (waiting for wife and daughter) said to me, 'that's the ladies room'. I ignored him and didn't miss a beat. I feel no need to acknowledge such comments. It's my world also and I'm staking more of a claim to it.

I define Butch. Masculine and feminine. I take what I want from both and add a few ingredients to define me. As I grow into myself, I may or may not adjust the recipe.

[AtLast]

BUMP!