Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[Dylan]

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

Some is operative, I hope!

Maybe, this happens simply due to the fact that no matter who we are, we have been subjected to the patriarchal confines of gender all of our lives. Unfortunately, man, male just gets equated with privilege due to this. Not a good jump to take, as there are a hell of a lot of variables involved in any form of privilege.

Also, and unfortunately, the male role models many of us have had have just been examples of this privilege gone amuck in this man's world.

On the other side of this, as one having a hand in raising a male child (who is now raising two female children), I have to say that it can be as painful to see what men in general can be saddled with in terms of the entire patriarchal schema. There are many just plain human characteristics that get genderized in ways that hold us all back.

Personally, I feel it is the buss word phenomenon here that is the culprit most often (unless it's just obvious sexist terminology - and when I use the term sexist, it means toward any form of gender). Also, the plain truth is that there have been times when I have been attacked for identifying as female. And the inverse is true for male identification. So, we all will most likely get pissed when we have this happen.

However, the problem is when we all generalize the deeds of an individual to every identification represented here. Hey, I admit, that sometimes it is hard for me to see past what has happened to me via this privilege in life, especially sexual assault and receiving less pay for the same work.

I have to bring up the fact that many male-identified or Transmen here do slap misogynist statements down as much as any female-identified butch here. I’m thinking it might be a good idea for everyone to take a look at what a member’s identification is to the left of the screen when reading posts.

But, in terms of how we interact as friends in our lives or support gender as what we now know (some of us are old), fluid and just not your mother's or father's gender? And, online, how do we all deal with this... that is my original question. What effect does this have on us as part of this entire community?


But, 'cept.... talk about all of this.... I'm too arthritic to tackle much these days...

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

I don't believe I've ever seen FIB's say that male ID receive male privilege, or the posts you've spoken of either. More so I've seen many conversations involving all ID's, femme, butches, etc speaking on if transmen receive it.

If there's that "common belief", I guess no one told me, can't help you. I could speculate, but it's be just that speculation, cause I don't believe they do myself. Besides I think there's enough speculation around here enough as it.

Metro

[TenderKnight]

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

That's cool. I wasn't sure. I just saw a lot of people referencing the 'gender wars', and I thought instead of just referencing, maybe someone wanted to actually talk about it. But I'm cool not talking about it too, cuz I'm sick of that conversation too.

So maybe we could all stop side skirting it, and just drop it? Cuz I'm kind of at the shit or get off the pot (openly discuss it or shut up about) point.

So six o' one/ half dozen o' the other...I'm e-z goin'

Thanks for your decent post, and thanks for your posts atlast and met


So...This Is One Of Those Bonding Threads?,
Dylan

[TenderKnight]

maybe we could bond about how sick we are of the gender wars conversation/debate..

Again, not that it isn't important, but I for one feel pretty defeated by it already.. *pulls out his white hanky*

I say Sir/Madam/Human Being.. I do surrender, I do have a gender and it isn't like everyone else's.. You win.

-Tony, who hopes that his humer shows through in this attempt to be cleaver..

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

maybe we could bond about how sick we are of the gender wars conversation/debate..

Again, not that it isn't important, but I for one feel pretty defeated by it already.. *pulls out his white hanky*

I say Sir/Madam/Human Being.. I do surrender, I do have a gender and it isn't like everyone else's.. You win.

-Tony, who hopes that his humer shows through in this attempt to be cleaver..

I agree....I was totally into when we were talking about values and what not.

[sharkchomp]

What I see is 'us' vs 'them'. I have seen what Dylan spoke of. The fact that it is dismissed or overlooked or just not seen is denial. We can deny that, we can deny the ID war altogether if we so choose. We can deny that assumptions are made by both 'camps'. Denial doesn't lead to growth or forgiveness or healing. Bridges can only be built when the majority is wanting and willing to do the work on the foundation of the bridge. And the foundation is the nitty gritty work.

I think lines have been drawn in the sand and people have become deeply entrenched. The fact that it was even discussed that male id'ed/trans people should be removed from the site says a lot and shows just how vast the divide is.

How do we heal? How do we come together as a community? With sincerity from all to move towards a common ground, calm words and open minds and hearts. It can be done but it will take work and a desire to accept each other's differences. Frank but peaceful discussions would be necessary.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[TenderKnight]

You know, I don't deny it is going on and has been going on for years, both online and off. Why else would I feel so damned heart sick over this stuff? People are getting hurt, people are defensive and offensive, there are clear sides and clear "captions" if not generals.. Hell yeah there is a gender war going on here.

The question that I'd like answered is this; what questions do we ask, not only of others but of ourselves about all this? How can we help respect bounderies so that all can live in a comfortable balance here? How can we help mediate the sides so that there are clear and set lines that we don't cross?

I don't know. I am totally open to discussing this, my heart and soul bare, if it will bring some kind of peace. Can this happen? Can we come to the table without arms or armor?

If there is a war here, this is what has to happen.

So.. How do we do this?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

What I see is 'us' vs 'them'. I have seen what Dylan spoke of. The fact that it is dismissed or overlooked or just not seen is denial. We can deny that, we can deny the ID war altogether if we so choose. We can deny that assumptions are made by both 'camps'. Denial doesn't lead to growth or forgiveness or healing. Bridges can only be built when the majority is wanting and willing to do the work on the foundation of the bridge. And the foundation is the nitty gritty work.

I think lines have been drawn in the sand and people have become deeply entrenched. The fact that it was even discussed that male id'ed/trans people should be removed from the site says a lot and shows just how vast the divide is.

How do we heal? How do we come together as a community? With sincerity from all to move towards a common ground, calm words and open minds and hearts. It can be done but it will take work and a desire to accept each other's differences. Frank but peaceful discussions would be necessary.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

I don't think anyone is dismissing or avoiding it, I just don't think this thread was starting for that particular discussion.

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I don't think anyone is dismissing or avoiding it, I just don't think this thread was starting for that particular discussion.

No problem

I'm out.....

~~~shark~~~~~~~

[Gayla]

Not that I'm attempting to rehash, but I think I must have missed the discussion about male ID'd/trans people being asked to leave the site. Can someone point me in the right direction please.

I also think there have been / are some good conversations happening in other threads and that we maybe don't have to do it again in this one. The values discussion was a good one and I am interested in the various viewpoints on that. I'm not exactly sure where I fall so I haven't posted anything yet but I'm working my way to it.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

No problem

I'm out.....

~~~shark~~~~~~~

I hope you come back. What you posted does belong, but, I can say it happens both ways and my intent here was to look at (not deny) these issues from a different way of relating to each other.

My off-line, real-time relationships with my trans friends are simply nothing like what happens here. And WE DO have these discussions all of the time. What goes on in our being able to see each other's viewpoints is that we have sound bonding as friends. Also, a history of in some cases, many years. Some have once identified as butch, others have not. There are transmasculine butches, too. Some have absolutely no interest in even being on a B-F site, others do and do have a point of personal reference with the B-F dynamic overall.

Maybe, I am just barking up the wrong tree in thinking that if we could apply some of how we interact outside of these sites, we can kick that line in the sand to the curb. If this true, I'll accept it. Can't change this by myself.

A couple of transguys have talked some about their understanding of butches and what we experience and have close butch friends. I have talked about this the other way around and even my protectiveness of trans friends sometimes. And they can be protective of me, too. Thus, my just not getting our gender/butch/trans-wars.

It is not lost on me that simply my having feminist, lesbian identifiers on my profile along with woman and butch can be the first (sometimes only) place a trans (and frankly, a MIB) member may come at me from a negative space. I can't fix this. However, my using these is not about anyone else but myself. Just as it is for trans members it is important for me to distinguish myself. And this just seems like something that is important to each individual person.

It has always stumped me why words, or sexual preferences, really, instead of content of ideas gets us in tangles. Let's take trans and butch out the equation and use stone or daddy, for example. Is that the entirety of the person? And why would someone take issue with these in the first place? They are what that person wants to have on their profile, for themselves. Yes, both have particular meanings, yet, it is just dumb to think you know everything about that person based on these terms.

There have been times I have thought, just put butch or nothing in that line. But, I'm not nothing and I am comfortable with my butch identity simply as it is. And I'm not going to change my profile just to appease others- and wouldn't want any one else to do this.

The only thing I know for myself is that it would be great if we could get this stuff put into perspectives that add to the community and understanding, not detract from it.

Actually, I feel that butch or trans is really not the problem, things get off to the races with sexual and political identification more here. Usually based upon false and preconceived notions with our reading between the lines (someone else brought this up). We all have personal biases, but certainly don't have to stay married to them.

Hell, I’ve had a PM come my way about this thread stating the person wasn’t a lesbian, so they were not going to join in. WTF? I don’t see lesbian in the title, do you? And I sure see a lot of posters that do not identify as lesbians posting here. Obviously, this person was only considering my profile as the OP and believing that that is who the thread is for. Jesus, I’ve even posted about some personal incidences with other lesbians that I found negative, especially towards a Transman friend of mine! Asshole, transphobic, anti-B-F lesbians exist. But, that isn’t going to change my sexual preference. I just have to tune-up as many as I can when they fuck with me or my trans friends. You know, educate….!!!

Like I said in the OP, as long as we remain civil, discuss whatever strikes you around all of this. I have to keep myself in check due to some of the hurtful crap that can happen and I think this fits for everyone. Sure, I've had my moments of anger, who hasn't? But, maybe we will get to a better way of communicating.