Passing - Is it a Privilege?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

1. You've said this before, and I'll say the same thing back. I have no idea what your trans politics are besides what you post on these sites. I have respect for your posts as well; however, again, we don't know each other from anywhere else but these posts.

i do know Atlast quite well. She is a friend. i haven't made a lot of nods in her direction on this site to inform people of that because, quite honestly, there are a few people around who don't like me, and i didn't want her affected by that.

But i will say that i do know that she offers -- and has long offered -- material support to trans organizations and to the trans people -- and family members of trans people -- in her life.

Because of several family relationships and because of her former profession, she has long been involved in one way or another with the trans community and has offered real meaningful support to individuals and groups.

In fact, i have said to her that it's more than i would do. i don't mean to be rude. i saw the post on the donation thread that had to do with the Transgender Law Center, and i was sort of tempted to donate, but then thought, no, not that's not how i spend my money.

i give my money to women's issues exclusively, usually international ones.

i know that the TLC and similar organizations support the rights of transwomen. i suppose if i knew that my money went to assist them alone, it would make sense for me to donate. But my giving is entirely directed to helping women. It's my money, the result of my precious time spent at work, and it's a choice i get to make.

In terms of personal emotional work and my own liberation from transphobia, i put some time in, but because at this point, for me to develop much further along those lines, it means having to deal with some issues i have had with cisgender men in my past, i do not expect to finish that work in this incarnation. (i am not being facetious. i am a Buddhist.)

Again, Atlast does far more of that kind of work -- thinking, reading, challenging herself -- than i do or will do in this lifetime. A lot more. i see it.

i agree that no one who has benefitted from the political work many of us did back in the day owes us thanks or a big hug or whatever.

i do think that intelligent people should look into their own history. That said, i confess that i do not know much about the history of trans politics or how they have intersected with feminist politics. What i know, i have learned from you, actually, on an old thread on the dash site.

i do think, in general, and certainly on this site, feminism takes a hit and gets characterized in terms that are inaccurate and denigrating. i think that much of the time that that happens, it is an expression of misogyny.

[Apocalipstic]

I like you Martina and At Last! I also like Chef and have known him in his different incarnations for 20 years.

I don't know how much money someone has to donate matters, but Chef is a musician and has played at plenty of Feminist and Lesbian fundraisers and well as speaking on several occasions on Trans issues, including at Vanderbilt University.

I bet, in person we would not even be having this conversation, we could see facial expressions and look into each others eyes and know we are on the same side.

Does Chef want to be seen as a Dude? yes, he is a Dude. Has anyone donated money to that end? no.

Oh, and Chef is older than Chef looks. (sorry Andy, just making sure we are clear that you are not some youngster with no clue about Queer history)

[chefhmboyrd]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I like you Martina and At Last! I also like Chef and have known him in his different incarnations for 20 years.

I don't know how much money someone has to donate matters, but Chef is a musician and has played at plenty of Feminist and Lesbian fundraisers and well as speaking on several occasions on Trans issues, including at Vanderbilt University.

I bet, in person we would not even be having this conversation, we could see facial expressions and look into each others eyes and know we are on the same side.

Does Chef want to be seen as a Dude? yes, he is a Dude. Has anyone donated money to that end? no.

Oh, and Chef is older than Chef looks. (sorry Andy, just making sure we are clear that you are not some youngster with no clue about Queer history)

thanks Mommie

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Martina

i agree that no one who has benefitted from the political work many of us did back in the day owes us thanks or a big hug or whatever.

For what it's worth -

I am very thankful to everybody who has worked hard and is working hard for the rights I have as a woman and for the rights of all members of my LGBTQ community. I owe a lot more than thanks to the people who have paved the way for me and my community.

-------------------------

It really seems that this thread has strayed from its original intent, and maybe that was inevitable.

I do hope that perhaps we could redirect this thread back to the original topic with the understanding and acceptance that we most likely will not achieve consensus? I was never looking for consensus in this thread, but I was really hoping for people to feel like they could share their own thoughts, experiences and feelings. If the tone of the thread has become so rancorous, those who avoid conflict will be less willing to share their own experiences here and I personally feel that would be a shame. Passing especially may be a topic that people who avoid conflict could really have something to say about.

I guess I can't ask that we all sit around the campfire now singing kumbayah, but it would be really cool if we could at least get back on topic?

[Corkey]

Passing is something I sometimes can accomplish. From the back, not the side or front. Do I have any privilege, um nope, none.

[Nat]

isolation in passing

There is a girl that works in my building. She's young and feminine, and one day I was trying to describe to her that OKGo video with the treadmills and I said the guys seemed really quirky and funny. She said, "do you mean like queer?" I said, "no, I personally would like that, but I don't know their orientations."

That was maybe 6 months ago and we haven't really spoken much since. I live in a small town in Texas, and I'm the only out person at my workplace (of several hundred).

Since then, I just kinda have the feeling she is herself queer. I see her every now and then and there's just a queer energy there - it's hard to say. At the time, I had no idea how to read her question - whether it was homophobic or if she was somehow addressing queerness because she is queer.

Maybe this is more an issue of invisibility than passing privilege, but that makes me wonder if invisibility and passing privilege are really separable for femmes. I do think there are femmes (and queer and lesbian women) who fully intend to pass as straight and then there are those who frustratingly don't register as anything other than straight, but it seems like there's a fine line in there somewhere where passing and invisibility would be difficult to tease out from each other.

I could possibly have made a really cool femme (or feminine queer) friend in this little town, but because we both pass for straight (if she's not straight) , we don't even have the possibility of community.

Thank the gods for the internet because here we really can wear our IDs as loudly as those with other more noticeable gender IDs.

[Heart]

Every time I see the title of this thread -- it bothers me. Because I don't think passing is ever a privilege. Having white skin, for example, is a privilege, but passing as if you have white skin...? Passing may, or may not, be a choice, but whether it's a choice or not, there is danger inherent in passing. In the eyes of the dominant culture if you pass, you are stealing privilege, not being granted privilege. You are therefore a thief, an interloper, a fraud, you are messing with the power paradigm, and you can pay a heavy price for that.

What's interesting is that there is the reality of being granted privilege if you are NOT passing, but are somehow more closely aligned with the dominant culture anyway. For example, being a light-skinned person-of-color is not passing, but can result in benefits based upon the over-valuing of light skin (colorism). But it's not passing that creates privilege. Passing defies the very definition of privilege. Passing may be a form of resistance or survival, but its not, IMO, a privilege.
Heart

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

Every time I see the title of this thread -- it bothers me. Because I don't think passing is ever a privilege. Having white skin, for example, is a privilege, but passing as if you have white skin...? Passing may, or may not, be a choice, but whether it's a choice or not, there is danger inherent in passing. In the eyes of the dominant culture if you pass, you are stealing privilege, not being granted privilege. You are therefore a thief, an interloper, a fraud, you are messing with the power paradigm, and you can pay a heavy price for that.
What's interesting is that there is the reality of being granted privilege if you are NOT passing, but are somehow more closely aligned with the dominant culture anyway. For example, being a light-skinned person-of-color is not passing, but can result in benefits based upon the over-valuing of light skin (colorism). But it's not passing that creates privilege. Passing defies the very definition of privilege. Passing may be a form of resistance or survival, but its not, IMO, a privilege.
Heart

It feels like privilege has become a catch-all term (even hackneyed)on this and other sites. Even a buzz term for [I]I'm politically correct[/I].. look at me.... Honest, self-examination of one's privilege to me, is just ending up as a mean's to be viewed as PC without the very painful work that really does need to be done.

What you bring to light (in red, above) here is so central to this entire analysis and the lack of understanding that privilege has many distinctions in various modalities and populations. It is also not the singular domain of US society. It is not stagnate concept that, it has fluidity in its myriad forms.

I think that what id important for me is to realize that I will always have to study privilege and never accept that it will disappear in any form in my lifetime. And that to view it from a singular stance will not serve me well.

When terms become nothing more than slogans, I know it is time to be more vigilant.

[iamkeri1]

[SIZE="3"]When I was femme in lesbian/gay society, I did not feel privileged for passing (as a straight woman). I felt both invisible and estranged, as the community I was involved with was very andro. I was femme with the additional negative (in their eyes) of being attracted to butch women (mmm-mmm-mmm.) This led to frequent taunting and dismissal of my reality as a lesbian acivist.

I was at all times aware, however, that I had the privlege of revealing or not revealing my orientation when in a work or straight social situation. I was aware that I could choose safety if I felt I needed to, or that I could choose to avoid confrontation if was having a weak moment.

This was a privilege my butch friends and partners did not have. On the other hand, they did not have to deal with invisibility because people ASSUMED they were gay.

When my darling revealed his trans status to me, (I had known him for nine years at that time, and been in a relationship with him for two years.), I felt like the bottom had fallen out of my world. We had just moved to Cali (Long Beach) and found ourselves welcomed into a gay community which included many b-f people. I felt like I belonged for the first time in my life. I sobbed like a crazy woman when he told me.

I knew right from the first, however, that I would not leave him. I was his, he was mine, there was no separating us. As he eventually transitioned, I was surprised and shocked to see the difference in the way we were treated by the general public. We had never been mistreated in our preceeding orientation, but when seen as husband and wife we were welcomed into "the club".... the "normie" club. We were astonished at the difference ... and dismayed that this treatment was not given to people that had been identified as queerfolk.

1. A short list of privileges
   • Joint tax returns (actually we always filed joint, but as husband and wife were less likely to face hassles)
   • Shared work benefits - health insurance, life insurance, funeral leave for your partners relatives.
   • Able to apply for and be issued a marriage license (whether or not the state would have recognised the marriage were our status revealed
   • Able to adopt kids with both names on the birth certificate
   • Collect social security widows benefit
   • Hospital visitation with no hassle
   • Endless "family" memberships[/SIZE]

ALL of these privileges should be "normal" for everyone.
Smooches,
Keri

[Dylan]

Whether I was given five dollars, or I 'stole' five dollars...I still have five dollars.

Whether the privilege is given or 'stolen', it's still granted. And if there weren't privilege in passing, people wouldn't stay in the closet nor would they 'pass'. It's because they don't want the discrimination (if we're talking 'staying in the closet').

And plenty of 'passing' people use the privilege they have been granted to oppress others in their same oppressed group. Some would even say that just staying in the closet oppresses others.

So, whether it's given freely or 'stolen', One still has the privilege. And it's 'given' in the first place, because One didn't bother to say anything about it/One didn't correct the assumption.


Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

[SIZE="3"]When I was femme in lesbian/gay society, I did not feel privileged for passing (as a straight woman). I felt both invisible and estranged, as the community I was involved with was very andro. I was femme with the additional negative (in their eyes) of being attracted to butch women (mmm-mmm-mmm.) This led to frequent taunting and dismissal of my reality as a lesbian acivist.

I was at all times aware, however, that I had the privlege of revealing or not revealing my orientation when in a work or straight social situation. I was aware that I could choose safety if I felt I needed to, or that I could choose to avoid confrontation if was having a weak moment.

This was a privilege my butch friends and partners did not have. On the other hand, they did not have to deal with invisibility because people ASSUMED they were gay.

When my darling revealed his trans status to me, (I had known him for nine years at that time, and been in a relationship with him for two years.), I felt like the bottom had fallen out of my world. We had just moved to Cali (Long Beach) and found ourselves welcomed into a gay community which included many b-f people. I felt like I belonged for the first time in my life. I sobbed like a crazy woman when he told me.

I knew right from the first, however, that I would not leave him. I was his, he was mine, there was no separating us. As he eventually transitioned, I was surprised and shocked to see the difference in the way we were treated by the general public. We had never been mistreated in our preceeding orientation, but when seen as husband and wife we were welcomed into "the club".... the "normie" club. We were astonished at the difference ... and dismayed that this treatment was not given to people that had been identified as queerfolk.

1. A short list of privileges
   • Joint tax returns (actually we always filed joint, but as husband and wife were less likely to face hassles)
   • Shared work benefits - health insurance, life insurance, funeral leave for your partners relatives.
   • Able to apply for and be issued a marriage license (whether or not the state would have recognised the marriage were our status revealed
   • Able to adopt kids with both names on the birth certificate
   • Collect social security widows benefit
   • Hospital visitation with no hassle
   • Endless "family" memberships[/SIZE]

ALL of these privileges should be "normal" for everyone.
Smooches,
Keri

Absolutely and I smooch ya' back! One can experience some form of some kinds of privilege via passing. Yet, when it comes to legal status like what you list... forget it! Now if one lives in a country or state in which transpeople can legally transition as female or male, and do pass as that gender (transitioning is a long process with many options that one may or may not want to do- and not all transpeople are ever fully recognized as the gender of transition), they do gain access to privilege. IE., legal marriage, being treated as male in this society from society at large. However, what one internally does with privilege and behaves with it, is what is important to me.

I most certainly know het straight couples and cis men that do not use their privilege to oppress others. never have and never will. I have long-term close het couple friends and one FtM + straight woman that will not legally marry until same-sex marriage is the law of the land in the US. They have been together 35 years and 8 years, respectively. They have chosen as a matter of belief in civil liberties for all not to exercise their right to a legal privilege that I and others cannot. No, I am not knocking other people for their own personal choices about this, but, do appreciate the stand that these folks make and their personal sacrifice.

[Nat]

I found this an interesting read

Being able to pass is a privilege. Passing privilege means that others don’t grab my body or assistive devices, people I’ve never met don’t look at me with pity or disgust and I am less likely to face intrusive and upsetting questions. Those are amazing privileges that many of my fellows in the disability community don’t share with me. Passing privilege means that I am not watched suspiciously in stores, negative comments are not made about my features, white people feel comfortable to interact with me and strangers do not expect me to act as an example of what all people of my background are like. Those are incredible privileges that many of my background do not share.

First up, we must address the nature of passing. Sometimes it is active (one chooses to pass) and sometimes passive (one is passed). Sometimes it’s an interaction of expectation and experience, habit and circumstance. One cannot untangle one’s own efforts to pass or to not from the point of the idea of passing. That is, whether one passes or not is dependant on the outside observer. The whole idea of passing hinges not on what the (non)passer does, but on the observer’s response to that person. There’s an extent to which one can control it – and people have developed quite some techniques – but it’s not always a matter of choice as to whether to pass or not.

There’s a friction between passing and solidarity with one’s group. Those who can pass as being a member of a dominant group may miss out on many experiences and forms of discrimination that are held to be facets of that group’s commonalities. One of the main problems with passing is that in doing so an inequitable system is being held up (by those who pass others, by those choosing to pass). This is to say that passing supports the idea that equality, better treatment, is gained by melting into the dominant group. This is of course true, as is evident in, for instance, shifting definitions of whiteness; but one shouldn’t have to lose their own identity to the “good,” dominant identity in order to be dealt with well. We should work not until identities disappear but until they’re all okay to have.

That burden should be placed on those making the assumptions of – enforcing – default identities, not on the passers. Passers frequently report hostility from within their own groups, and accusations of not really being a member of their community from all sides. No one is less a member of the group for other people’s perceptions and it’s incredibly offensive to suggest otherwise. Passing is not always a choice; when it is, it’s presumptuous to resent someone for that and just outright wrong where safety is involved. How one deals with one’s own experiences of oppression is one’s own concern.

Being able to pass really messes with my head. I’ve frequent bouts of intense guilt about it, and I feel sick when people in my communities admire me for the features that make me more likely to pass (‘look at her beautiful skin.’ Increasingly I need to get the nearest bathroom and scrub and scrub where they grab my arm). Sometimes I don’t feel quite real or as though I’m cheating, an intruder in someone else’s identity. With regard to being disabled, this has some nasty consequences: in the past I’ve not gotten needs met, either because I can’t bear to out myself or because someone doesn’t quite think I’m truthful. Passing doesn’t mean I’m not struggling to remain standing while we’re talking. I struggle with passing and being passed. Sometimes I try and do it to feel safer (never safe) and lose my integrity. Sometimes I am passed, and it’s a mix of delight and loss and damage. Whatever I do, it’s never enough, I’m never enough.

Now I just mostly let people think what they will. The glowing effects largely disappear once I give off too many cues. Because so much of my identity, experience and expression is tied up with those of my identities that are invisible, the effects are frequently fleeting.

Being invisible doesn’t mean I face no discrimination but that I face less individualised discrimination in many contexts. Looking like I do has not prevented, upon the acknowledgement of my identity, looks of disgust, offensive remarks about my family, having to listen to racial hatred. It has not prevented the fear in me, the way I have not felt safe since I was a little girl. It has not prevented that I modify my dress, my speech, my movements, my stories in order to appear as “normal” as possible, just like anyone else trying to not face the wrath of whiteness. Attempting to invisibilise difference is hardly restricted to those of us who can pass.

The thing is, I’ve done everything. I’ve been loud and proud about my invisible identities. I’ve done my best to make them disappear. I’ve allowed myself to be passed, I’ve actively worked to pass. I’ve just been myself, I’ve made my identities explicit. At the end of all this anxiety and modification and thought and care, one thing remains constant: it’s the perceptions and actions of people in dominant bodies that count. When I pass, there’s still the weight of many manifestations of oppression on my shoulders. And irrespective of whether I pass or not, people outside of my groups still get to determine how I am treated and how I am perceived. There is no way to win.

[Mrs. Strutt]

I had the opportunity to think about this more over the past week after I commented on the other thread about having negative thoughts about privilege in light of my background.

My daughter and I drove to Gainesville, FL from the Tampa Bay area last Wednesday for my dad's surgery. When you live in a major metropolitan area in Florida, where life is associated with vacations, white sand beaches and the world's most famous mouse, it is easy to forget sometimes that Florida is in the South. The deep, deep South...a place where "different" is scarcely tolerated in certain areas.

As I entered more rural areas on my way to north Florida, the billboards and advertisements for Disney and waterfront living faded away to be replaced with common highway sights that can be found on any major interstate below the Mason-Dixon line: signs announcing ammunition for sale, Baptist/Pentacostal church advertisements exhorting passers-by to "Choose Life!", and "We Bare All!" billboards for truck stops featuring blondes that were more likely to be found in Beverly Hills, CA than in Beverly Hills, FL.

When I stopped for gas and some cold drinks, it occurred to me that Katie and I were attracting little notice: a woman and her child passing through, fellow travelers perhaps idly wondering as to the whereabouts of the husband that belonged to the rings on my left hand.

Had Mr. Strutt been with us, however, there would have been more than idle speculation. On our annual travels back to hys hometown in North Carolina, we have grown accustomed to looks and occasional raised eyebrows as those around us try to "figure it out." We have never felt threatened in any way, but the attitude is palpable and we have always taken precautions in the event that idle speculation ever becomes active threat.

So was the fact I "passed" as a straight woman a privilege in terms of "safety" for me and my child? Yes, it was. It also reminded me I can turn my "passing" on and off at will, for the reasons and situations I choose, while Mr. Strutt cannot.

Perhaps part of why I am uncomfortable with my "femme privilege" is because I do have that choice.