Passing - Is it a Privilege?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Dylan, that is not what I am doing or want to do. I was offended by a total disregard for the fact that there exist many that support and have worked hard for transgendered people. And that it stuck in my craw that someone doesn't give a rat's ass about this when this very site is part of a community of very diverse populations. A community...

You are taking this way out of context. You know very well where I stand on trans politics.

So, allies, relatives and supporters of transgendered and intergendered people are their oppressors? Having some humility and recognizing that there is much to be grateful for is something I cherish. I wake up every day with the knowledge that so much is much bigger than myself and my own trials and tribulations even when they have been many and difficult (although, most people go through some shit). I'm grateful for being alive and able to contribute to what exists outside myself. Yes, personally, I get tired of people (in general) that only view the world in terms of themselves and don’t recognize how interconnected we all really are. I give a big rat's ass about people and their struggles. You know this. I do not suffer self-absorption well, never have, never will and make no bones about this… and won’t.

I really don't feel like getting into this with you. I have great regard for you and like you very much. We have had our site ups and downs, but I believe have much in common with queer politics. I am not taking this to task as you are just not understanding what I am upset about.

Obviously, other people have things to post that are important to them and have moved on. I am moving on....

I'm numbering, because I'm on my first cup o' coffee...not because I'm being short.

1. You've said this before, and I'll say the same thing back. I have no idea what your trans politics are besides what you post on these sites. I have respect for your posts as well; however, again, we don't know each other from anywhere else but these posts.

2. No where in Chef's post does he say anything about 'screw those people'. In fact, he very clearly stated how he stands up for everyone in the GLBTQ community.

So, what's the problem? Because he said, "People are going to think what people want to think, and I don't give a rat's ass"?

3. Just because someone's an ally, it doesn't mean they're not part of the oppressing group. And honestly, self-professed allies are quite problematic anyways. As part of the 'oppressing' group, One is an oppressor. Self-professed allies are the worst, because usually they're looking for a big thank you without actually doing any work. They want a big pat on the back for 'being there'. I don't trust anyone who names themselves an 'ally'...because usually they're also the first ones to say something offensive and get mad when you call them on it...and then remind you what a big 'ally' they are. No, the trans community doesn't 'owe' anyone else a thank you.

4. I just don't see the self-absorption you see in Chef's post, and that's cool. People read things differently.

5. Telling me not to 'forget my roots' is telling me what to do. First off, you don't even know 'my roots'. And what exactly do you mean by that? What do you assume my roots are? That seems a pretty arrogant thing to say, no?

Or how about the history lesson on 'The Trans Movement'? The arrogance of that statement, and your continued idea that Second Wavers 'started The Trans Movement', and your continued 'correcting' of trans history is quite bothersome. Perhaps, YOU should 'look it up' when exactly the Trans Movement started and by whom. Because it didn't start in the 60s. It started long before that...it blew up in the 60s and 70s as did EVERY movement...and in part BECAUSE of the animosity from the Second Wave community (Janice Raymond, Mary Daly, etc)

Telling me whom I need to thank is telling me what to do.
I don't owe cis people anymore of a thank you than I owe straight people or rich people. How about I tell you to thank men for all they've done to *help* you and 'remember your place'?

Have you thanked a trans person lately for Stonewall? For starting so much shit in the 60s?

Trans people don't owe their oppressors a big hearty kiss on the cheek. And if self-professed 'allies' think they need a thank you, they're in it for the wrong reasons. P.S. I don't owe Second Wavers a big ol' kiss on the cheek either. Second Wavers weren't 'questioning gender' to 'help' trans people...they were questioning politics and gender for THEIR OWN purposes. And really? You think transpeople weren't 'questioning' gender before the Second Wave came along? Seriously? That's quite an arrogant statement, no?

This 'community' (not site specific) is NOT friendly towards one another. We were lumped together out of sexual 'deviancy'...not out of love and camaraderie and mutual support. I don't owe the lesbians or the gays or the bisexuals anymore thanks than you 'owe' transpeople. And that's all aside from the fact that the GLBQ has (throughout history) tossed the Ts aside, co-opted the history, thrown Ts under the bus, screwed the Ts through legislative processes (ENDA anyone?)...and now you're telling transpeople to *thank* those people? Seriously?


Seriously,
Dylan

[Mitmo01]

The only thing i pass for is a butch dyke and many times throughout the day since i work on the phone i get called sir more times than i can count and i dont even correct anyone......it used to be tiresome and now i just find it amusing....

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by chefhmboyrd

Dylan and HSIN,
thanks for the support.

i am not sure how i managed to offend anyone. i was just speaking of my experience.

it's not that i don't care about the community, i just don't buy in to all the PC crap. i could say the cow is black and someone gets offended.

it's almost like i have more trouble with the LRGBLT community than anyone else, because of the collective chip on the shoulder, and people are quick to be offended. almost looking for a fight

i'm not a fighter, i am a survivor, and it is ALH's right and "Priviledge" to not to agree or like me. (that is the type of thing that i don't give a rats ass about)

@

Hi Andy!

I think people who live in different parts of the country don't know that in the South there are no public funds for meetings, surgeries any of that like there is in California. No one went before except Nick, we are kind of in a free fall making our own way and it works for us.

Also, there does seem to be a divide between some Butches and some Transguys. I would love to see us draw together as a global community like we have in Nashville!

We get along and hang out and it's no big deal and no one gives a rats ass who is trans and who is not and who passes and who does not as long as we try to be sensitive to what pronouns people prefer and so forth.

Before you transitioned you got zero support as Butch from the LBGQT etc community, same as I get zero support as Femme. That's how it is here. So it is difficult to care about what they think now. Hell, I have a hard time and I am a Lesbian.

I don't think what you said was offensive at all, so please don't think that we all are always ready for a fight. We are not going to all agree, but roll with it. It is important that we have these conversations and it is so great to have you here!

[Apocalipstic]

I pass as straight and for the most part, I wish I didn't...but not enough to not be myself.

[Liam]

I think it depends on what you are passing as, as to whether or not there is any privilege to that. For years and years, I passed as a gay male, before my white hair started coming in; I didn't feel terribly privileged.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Liam

I think it depends on what you are passing as, as to whether or not there is any privilege to that. For years and years, I passed as a gay male, before my white hair started coming in; I didn't feel terribly privileged.

Great point!

I pass as a Sunday School teacher and I find very little priviledge in that either.

[Apocalipstic]

I have really been thinking about this.

I guess for me, when someone says they don't care about who knows if they are trans, it does not means that they don't care about the struggles of other people. It means that they do their own thing. I see that as healthy, not selfish.

I admire and respect you AtLast, but is there something I am missing? Should Transpeople who have hated themselves their entire lives and known something was wrong and are finally becoming who they knew they always were supposed to be, announce their gender? Are they supposed to feel bad for passing?

Especially in a part of the country with pretty much ZERO support from community. The Gay and Lesbian community in Nashville does not even support Butches and Femmes, much less Transpeople.

Also,

When someone new comes on the website it would be great if we could not immediately assume the worst and call them selfish etc etc....

I don't get this Butches V Transguys thing. I find it very distressing.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I have really been thinking about this.

I guess for me, when someone says they don't care about who knows if they are trans, it does not means that they don't care about the struggles of other people. It means that they do their own thing. I see that as healthy, not selfish.

I admire and respect you AtLast, but is there something I am missing? Should Transpeople who have hated themselves their entire lives and known something was wrong and are finally becoming who they knew they always were supposed to be, announce their gender? Are they supposed to feel bad for passing?

Especially in a part of the country with pretty much ZERO support from community. The Gay and Lesbian community in Nashville does not even support Butches and Femmes, much less Transpeople.

Also,

When someone new comes on the website it would be great if we could not immediately assume the worst and call them selfish etc etc....

I don't get this Butches V Transguys thing. I find it very distressing.

I don't get it, either that's why I do what I do and always will.

I am taking in your points here about a new person and will act accordingly and in private. I am tired of assumptions, too. And misread statements. But, we are all human. Some of us get fired-up due to our history, I do.

I'm not willing to get into trans related discussions anymore on the site. Just never works here. There are many political threads that I enjoy that are not gender related. (except, for me, the world is interrelated via gender). Real-time relationships and work are my focus and this is just not a good forum for these discussions. Yet, I'm glad this site has this representation because maybe it will help kids and families find resources and support. Frankly, that is what is important to me.

I see the bunching of thanks reps accumulating as the wagons circle. Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads posts and thinks about them, or just looks at the Thanks box and clicks because they see particular screen names there. I am not going to use that function anymore- just send reps that are private. I feel like we have made a cheerleading (as in immature in-crowd forming mentality from middle and high school- popularity contests) tool out of that site feature used to summon the forces.


Big weekend ahead with various Pride events in SF with real-time friends and organizations that I am (others are too) proud to be a part of. If my body allows my participation as I want to give it. Time to relax, calm my senses and body so I can be there in full spirit. It is nice to be able to share these activities with people one works with all year. Besides, a friend is going to show his new chest post surgery and he is so funny with his excitement- not going to let this get ruined.

I really am getting too old for this!

[T D]

Snip

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I don't get this Butches V Transguys thing. I find it very distressing.

Amen, neither do I. I just don't get it!!! In fact I had no idea there was even any issues surrounding this until Butch Voices came along.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Great point!

I pass as a Sunday School teacher and I find very little priviledge in that either.

i pass as an old lady school teacher originally from Ohio. Corn-fed vibes. Old lady vibes. School teacher-librarian type vibes.

Sigh. Why can't the kick ass leather femme show??

But, alas, i look like my mom, who was also an old lady school teacher (but not -- as far as i know -- a leather dyke).

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Martina

i pass as an old lady school teacher originally from Ohio. Corn-fed vibes. Old lady vibes. School teacher-librarian type vibes.

Sigh. Why can't the kick ass leather femme show??

But, alas, i look like my mom, who was also an old lady school teacher (but not -- as far as i know -- a leather dyke).

I have always wanted to look like the Huge Dyke I am too! "snarl"

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

1. You've said this before, and I'll say the same thing back. I have no idea what your trans politics are besides what you post on these sites. I have respect for your posts as well; however, again, we don't know each other from anywhere else but these posts.

i do know Atlast quite well. She is a friend. i haven't made a lot of nods in her direction on this site to inform people of that because, quite honestly, there are a few people around who don't like me, and i didn't want her affected by that.

But i will say that i do know that she offers -- and has long offered -- material support to trans organizations and to the trans people -- and family members of trans people -- in her life.

Because of several family relationships and because of her former profession, she has long been involved in one way or another with the trans community and has offered real meaningful support to individuals and groups.

In fact, i have said to her that it's more than i would do. i don't mean to be rude. i saw the post on the donation thread that had to do with the Transgender Law Center, and i was sort of tempted to donate, but then thought, no, not that's not how i spend my money.

i give my money to women's issues exclusively, usually international ones.

i know that the TLC and similar organizations support the rights of transwomen. i suppose if i knew that my money went to assist them alone, it would make sense for me to donate. But my giving is entirely directed to helping women. It's my money, the result of my precious time spent at work, and it's a choice i get to make.

In terms of personal emotional work and my own liberation from transphobia, i put some time in, but because at this point, for me to develop much further along those lines, it means having to deal with some issues i have had with cisgender men in my past, i do not expect to finish that work in this incarnation. (i am not being facetious. i am a Buddhist.)

Again, Atlast does far more of that kind of work -- thinking, reading, challenging herself -- than i do or will do in this lifetime. A lot more. i see it.

i agree that no one who has benefitted from the political work many of us did back in the day owes us thanks or a big hug or whatever.

i do think that intelligent people should look into their own history. That said, i confess that i do not know much about the history of trans politics or how they have intersected with feminist politics. What i know, i have learned from you, actually, on an old thread on the dash site.

i do think, in general, and certainly on this site, feminism takes a hit and gets characterized in terms that are inaccurate and denigrating. i think that much of the time that that happens, it is an expression of misogyny.

[Apocalipstic]

I like you Martina and At Last! I also like Chef and have known him in his different incarnations for 20 years.

I don't know how much money someone has to donate matters, but Chef is a musician and has played at plenty of Feminist and Lesbian fundraisers and well as speaking on several occasions on Trans issues, including at Vanderbilt University.

I bet, in person we would not even be having this conversation, we could see facial expressions and look into each others eyes and know we are on the same side.

Does Chef want to be seen as a Dude? yes, he is a Dude. Has anyone donated money to that end? no.

Oh, and Chef is older than Chef looks. (sorry Andy, just making sure we are clear that you are not some youngster with no clue about Queer history)

[chefhmboyrd]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I like you Martina and At Last! I also like Chef and have known him in his different incarnations for 20 years.

I don't know how much money someone has to donate matters, but Chef is a musician and has played at plenty of Feminist and Lesbian fundraisers and well as speaking on several occasions on Trans issues, including at Vanderbilt University.

I bet, in person we would not even be having this conversation, we could see facial expressions and look into each others eyes and know we are on the same side.

Does Chef want to be seen as a Dude? yes, he is a Dude. Has anyone donated money to that end? no.

Oh, and Chef is older than Chef looks. (sorry Andy, just making sure we are clear that you are not some youngster with no clue about Queer history)

thanks Mommie

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Martina

i agree that no one who has benefitted from the political work many of us did back in the day owes us thanks or a big hug or whatever.

For what it's worth -

I am very thankful to everybody who has worked hard and is working hard for the rights I have as a woman and for the rights of all members of my LGBTQ community. I owe a lot more than thanks to the people who have paved the way for me and my community.

-------------------------

It really seems that this thread has strayed from its original intent, and maybe that was inevitable.

I do hope that perhaps we could redirect this thread back to the original topic with the understanding and acceptance that we most likely will not achieve consensus? I was never looking for consensus in this thread, but I was really hoping for people to feel like they could share their own thoughts, experiences and feelings. If the tone of the thread has become so rancorous, those who avoid conflict will be less willing to share their own experiences here and I personally feel that would be a shame. Passing especially may be a topic that people who avoid conflict could really have something to say about.

I guess I can't ask that we all sit around the campfire now singing kumbayah, but it would be really cool if we could at least get back on topic?

[Corkey]

Passing is something I sometimes can accomplish. From the back, not the side or front. Do I have any privilege, um nope, none.

[Nat]

isolation in passing

There is a girl that works in my building. She's young and feminine, and one day I was trying to describe to her that OKGo video with the treadmills and I said the guys seemed really quirky and funny. She said, "do you mean like queer?" I said, "no, I personally would like that, but I don't know their orientations."

That was maybe 6 months ago and we haven't really spoken much since. I live in a small town in Texas, and I'm the only out person at my workplace (of several hundred).

Since then, I just kinda have the feeling she is herself queer. I see her every now and then and there's just a queer energy there - it's hard to say. At the time, I had no idea how to read her question - whether it was homophobic or if she was somehow addressing queerness because she is queer.

Maybe this is more an issue of invisibility than passing privilege, but that makes me wonder if invisibility and passing privilege are really separable for femmes. I do think there are femmes (and queer and lesbian women) who fully intend to pass as straight and then there are those who frustratingly don't register as anything other than straight, but it seems like there's a fine line in there somewhere where passing and invisibility would be difficult to tease out from each other.

I could possibly have made a really cool femme (or feminine queer) friend in this little town, but because we both pass for straight (if she's not straight) , we don't even have the possibility of community.

Thank the gods for the internet because here we really can wear our IDs as loudly as those with other more noticeable gender IDs.

[Heart]

Every time I see the title of this thread -- it bothers me. Because I don't think passing is ever a privilege. Having white skin, for example, is a privilege, but passing as if you have white skin...? Passing may, or may not, be a choice, but whether it's a choice or not, there is danger inherent in passing. In the eyes of the dominant culture if you pass, you are stealing privilege, not being granted privilege. You are therefore a thief, an interloper, a fraud, you are messing with the power paradigm, and you can pay a heavy price for that.

What's interesting is that there is the reality of being granted privilege if you are NOT passing, but are somehow more closely aligned with the dominant culture anyway. For example, being a light-skinned person-of-color is not passing, but can result in benefits based upon the over-valuing of light skin (colorism). But it's not passing that creates privilege. Passing defies the very definition of privilege. Passing may be a form of resistance or survival, but its not, IMO, a privilege.
Heart

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

Every time I see the title of this thread -- it bothers me. Because I don't think passing is ever a privilege. Having white skin, for example, is a privilege, but passing as if you have white skin...? Passing may, or may not, be a choice, but whether it's a choice or not, there is danger inherent in passing. In the eyes of the dominant culture if you pass, you are stealing privilege, not being granted privilege. You are therefore a thief, an interloper, a fraud, you are messing with the power paradigm, and you can pay a heavy price for that.
What's interesting is that there is the reality of being granted privilege if you are NOT passing, but are somehow more closely aligned with the dominant culture anyway. For example, being a light-skinned person-of-color is not passing, but can result in benefits based upon the over-valuing of light skin (colorism). But it's not passing that creates privilege. Passing defies the very definition of privilege. Passing may be a form of resistance or survival, but its not, IMO, a privilege.
Heart

It feels like privilege has become a catch-all term (even hackneyed)on this and other sites. Even a buzz term for [I]I'm politically correct[/I].. look at me.... Honest, self-examination of one's privilege to me, is just ending up as a mean's to be viewed as PC without the very painful work that really does need to be done.

What you bring to light (in red, above) here is so central to this entire analysis and the lack of understanding that privilege has many distinctions in various modalities and populations. It is also not the singular domain of US society. It is not stagnate concept that, it has fluidity in its myriad forms.

I think that what id important for me is to realize that I will always have to study privilege and never accept that it will disappear in any form in my lifetime. And that to view it from a singular stance will not serve me well.

When terms become nothing more than slogans, I know it is time to be more vigilant.

[iamkeri1]

[SIZE="3"]When I was femme in lesbian/gay society, I did not feel privileged for passing (as a straight woman). I felt both invisible and estranged, as the community I was involved with was very andro. I was femme with the additional negative (in their eyes) of being attracted to butch women (mmm-mmm-mmm.) This led to frequent taunting and dismissal of my reality as a lesbian acivist.

I was at all times aware, however, that I had the privlege of revealing or not revealing my orientation when in a work or straight social situation. I was aware that I could choose safety if I felt I needed to, or that I could choose to avoid confrontation if was having a weak moment.

This was a privilege my butch friends and partners did not have. On the other hand, they did not have to deal with invisibility because people ASSUMED they were gay.

When my darling revealed his trans status to me, (I had known him for nine years at that time, and been in a relationship with him for two years.), I felt like the bottom had fallen out of my world. We had just moved to Cali (Long Beach) and found ourselves welcomed into a gay community which included many b-f people. I felt like I belonged for the first time in my life. I sobbed like a crazy woman when he told me.

I knew right from the first, however, that I would not leave him. I was his, he was mine, there was no separating us. As he eventually transitioned, I was surprised and shocked to see the difference in the way we were treated by the general public. We had never been mistreated in our preceeding orientation, but when seen as husband and wife we were welcomed into "the club".... the "normie" club. We were astonished at the difference ... and dismayed that this treatment was not given to people that had been identified as queerfolk.

1. A short list of privileges
   • Joint tax returns (actually we always filed joint, but as husband and wife were less likely to face hassles)
   • Shared work benefits - health insurance, life insurance, funeral leave for your partners relatives.
   • Able to apply for and be issued a marriage license (whether or not the state would have recognised the marriage were our status revealed
   • Able to adopt kids with both names on the birth certificate
   • Collect social security widows benefit
   • Hospital visitation with no hassle
   • Endless "family" memberships[/SIZE]

ALL of these privileges should be "normal" for everyone.
Smooches,
Keri