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06-28-2010, 07:47 PM
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#1 |
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Some questions I really hope get answered...
I'm curious. What WOULD it take for what is happening in Arizona to raise the hackles of people who are sanguine about it? If you think this is a good law, if you think that the directive that came down from Governor Brewer that ethnic studies programs will be eliminated was a good idea and that neither of those are any more racially charged as, say, a law against driving 100mph in a school zone is, what would make it take for you to say "okay, THIS is racially charged".
I ask because the combination of the immigration law, the ethnic studies law and an elementary school lightening the faces of children in a mural because there were too many brown faces even though the mural is of children attending the school sets off all kinds of racial red flags for me. It seems to me that Arizona is targeting Hispanics. It seems to me that a lot of the anti-immigration rhetoric is either racially charged or walks right up to the line of it. There are clear tracks from white supremacist groups to the law, to the banning of ethnic studies and the lightening of the faces on the mural. All of that taken together should, I think, give us a moment of pause. I would also like an explanation from anyone who cares to give one what it is about racist ideas that has made America stronger. The statement has been made and defended by at least two posters that the strength of America is the diversity of ideas with no qualifiers. I presume, then, that this applies even to ideas that are as abhorrent as racism. So if, in the name of diversity, we should want all ideas to be treated as equal such that we should not even try to argue *down* ideas that we find odious--and part of what I was called to task on by Sabine seems to be my willingness to argue down a position I disagree with--what are the strengths that America has gained from racist ideas such that we should not want those ideas eliminated and should, in fact, possibly even want them disseminated widely. Surely, no one is saying that we should have a diversity if ideas as long as some ideas aren't spread far and wide. Now, if you are going to answer please keep in mind that the argument "America was made better by racist ideas because we overcame them" is both insulting AND callous. It is insulting because it basically takes all those who were beaten or killed in the cause of civil rights were just so many eggs that had to be broken. It is callous because it would be like saying to the woman who has lost her family, her vision and her ability to walk in a terrible car accident "you are SO lucky that this happened to you because now you have adversity to overcome". Would it not be better for that woman if her family were still alive, she could still see and still walk even if that meant she was somewhat less of an inspiring person? I would argue that her life would be better being less inspiring with her family, her eyesight and her legs. In the same vein, I would argue that although we are rightfully proud that America made slavery illegal and eventually got around to the idea that non-white citizens were ALSO citizens before the law, it would have been better for all parties concerned over the last 230 years if those issues hadn't been there for us to get over. If anyone takes up my questions, I thank them for it in advance. I really want to know what you think America gains from racism such that an America without racism would be a weaker nation than one with it. If a less abstract question would help here it is: imagine your son or daughter or your lover consistently made racist statements. Would you try to discourage them or would you accept those statements without criticism because those are diverse ideas? If the former, why would you discourage those ideas and try to convince your loved one that they were wrong? If the latter, then on what basis can you say that racism--even racism codified into law--is wrong? Why is it wrong?
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Proud member of the reality-based community. "People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. And so, the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn’t that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people. As soon as you saw people as things to be measured, they didn’t measure up." (Terry Pratchett) Last edited by dreadgeek; 06-28-2010 at 07:55 PM. |
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06-28-2010, 08:13 PM
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#2 |
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Since the Presidential Election it seems to me that racism is coming out of the shadows in this country.
It frightens me. In a big way. I am often incredulous that the American people are okay with what they are seeing and hearing. The very same people who use the constitution as a catch all for bad behaviors are willing to just undo the fourteenth amendment? What about section 3? As a mother, there have been times my children have come home with some very upsetting comments. We have to sit down and hash out the WHY'S of it all. This past year proved particularly difficult, because we now live in a very white, very christian and very Republican area. My son came home with lots of thoughts from his class mates. One time he told me how the boys in his class had said that the one POC in the class was a thief because of her skin color. He'd argued and gotten in a fight and consequently was mad at ME. Luckily we were able to sit him down and work it out. How could I not? I am often times in company that feels ok with making racial slurs/jokes whatever. I have light skin, so when the wetback jokes start flying I am often met with shock and embarassment when I call it out. Mind you something shifts, and those people don't invite me to have lunch with them or make prolonged eye contact anymore. So why is it wrong? Because no human being deserves bad treatment based on the color of their skin. Or hair. Or religion. No one person is ever "better" than another. |
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06-28-2010, 08:57 PM
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#3 | |
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And this right there is why I am so passionate about this. Ideas have consequences. This is why I think it matters if we are able to say "no, these ideas are wrong and here is why." It's why I can no longer pretend that ideas are neutral in their effects. Ideas have consequences and we should evaluate ideas on a number of criteria--including what those consequences are. I also believe that there are inviolate ideals--like peaceful tolerance as much as is humanly possible and without jeopardizing the lives of others. But with that comes the responsibility to defend tolerance and the tolerant society against those who would advocate for intolerance. Ideas matter because people matter. The minute we decide that all ideas, (even the idea that not all people matter) are equally valid, equally worthy of consideration and just part of the diversity of ideas we have set up the tolerant society to fail. There are ideas we should be on the lookout for and prepared to argue against with all our passion. Like many others here, I believe that there is a non-trivial element of racism in the Arizona law. This doesn't mean I believe that anyone arguing here has racist reasons for supporting it. I believe that racism is one such idea that we should be prepared to say loudly and repeatedly, 'This idea is wrong. Here is why it is wrong. Here is why it is invalid. Here is why it is dangerous.' I am willing to tolerate anything this side of the advocacy of intolerance. Neither democracy nor tolerance are suicide pacts. Thank you for having the courage to call out bad ideas when they are spoken to you. I'm sorry that it costs you community but thank you nonetheless.
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06-28-2010, 08:18 PM
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#4 |
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Aj..........this is what it would take:
Sally gets stopped for not using a turn signal. Sally gets all nervous and cop gets suspicious that Sally might be without papers because she averted her eyes and fumbled around in her purse and looked around nervously. Cop decides that Sally's driver's license doesn't look authentic....it looks like a forgery. Cop asks Sally for her proof of citizenship.....her birth certificate. Sally of course does not carry her birth certificate on her person....she was born in this country, so was her mother and her grandmother and her great-grandmother....she don't need no stinking papers. Cop then arrests Sally and takes her to jail....her car goes to the impound lot. It's Friday evening at 7:00pm. Sally actually gets her phone call...........she calls Mom.....Mom does not have a copy of said birth certificate and can't get one before Tuesday morning because all government offices are closed until Tuesday (Monday is a holiday....Labor Day). Long story short............Sally sits her ass in jail until Tuesday......well maybe longer depending on how fast Mom can get birth certificate or until the DA decides she really is a citizen. Then it's gonna cost her 200-300+ bucks to get her car out of impound. And if she was supposed to be at work she may well lose her job. Sally is a white girl and now Sally is beyond pissed at the 'papers please' laws. The above scenario has happened to brown folks in AZ who are born in this country, whose parents and grandparents and great grandparents were born in this country.
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06-28-2010, 09:04 PM
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#5 | |
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This is what I don't understand--how can *anyone* be sanguine about this law? How can people *not* put themselves in that scenario and imagine it happening to them. And then I remember just how different things can be. The other night, on the way home from our anniversary dinner, a cop pulled up to us as we were passing the downtown police HQ. He asked if he could turn in front of us (we were at the curbside, he was in the middle lane), and told us that our passenger side taillight was stuck in 'on'. As we drove away J commented "I wonder how that would have gone if you'd been driving and this wasn't an Audi". This is a thought that only would have occurred to J since being with me. She's not racist. She's not callous. She's white, from Salt Lake City and it just never occurred to her that it was like this for non-white people.
Thank you for making the scenario visceral. Quote:
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06-28-2010, 09:27 PM
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#6 |
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I really appreciate your posts here AJ.
I too, wonder what would have happened had you not been in that Audi the other night, because I've seen it way too many times to pretend it doesn't happen. We have relatives coming over from El Paso next month. Can I just tell you how surreal it was to have several conversations with them about what "paperwork" they should bring along because they have to drive through AZ. They are worried that a birth certificate isn't enough, even though they are 7th generation Americans. They go right to the nightmare scenario of being detained and having social services take their small children. Seriously. Who should be worrying about ICE when going to visit Mickey Mouse? |
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06-29-2010, 01:17 PM
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A small aside
A couple of folks have said things to me privately since my last response to Kobi about my patience. Thank you. I'm glad it's noticed. However, I have no other real choice. Without getting anywhere *near* saying anything like "white people are to blame..." Kobi tried to give me the "you have to not blame white people for your life" lecture to put me on the right path. Now imagine if I had lost my nut and just turned on the flames. I would have fully validated the whole "you're just an angry black woman" meme that the "your leaders..." comment was symptomatic of. This preternatural calm comes hard and it has taken years and years of practice for it to become second nature but it is the only choice. Those of you who know me in the hard-world know what I do for a living--there is no way in *hell* anyone would ever have hired me for my first gig if I had come off as an angry black woman and there's no way I would have had a second gig if I did.
Kobi you made one more mistake that I think you might need pointed out to you. Of the men you mentioned--DuBois, Washington, Garvey, Farrakhan and Malcolm X, only two of them do I agree with substantially (the first two) and only one of whom I would take as a role model (DuBois). My 'leaders', my role models--my parents and grandparents notwithstanding--are largely not black men or women. If I am trying to style my life after anyone it is these people: Charles Darwin Albert Einstein Paul Dirac Steven Weinberg Rachel Carson Rosalyn Franklin Richard Dawkins E. O. Wilson Lynn Margulis Steven Hawking Ed Witten Carl Sagan Richard Feynman Michio Kaku Lee Smolin Terry Pratchett Douglas Adams Martin Luther King Mark Knopfler Susan Jacoby Mae Jameson Richard Hofstadter Those are people I look up to. They are the ones who (at least the living ones) if I met I would be dumbfounded, starstruck and humbled to be in their very presence. These are MY leaders. DuBois, Washington, Malcolm X, Farrakhan, Garvey and the Obamas all share a phenotype with me (within a certain range) but that does not make them my heroes or my role models. I am a scientist and a writer, my heroes and role models are largely scientists and writers. As a rule, it's a mistake to assume that because someone is, say, black their heroes, role models, guiding stars will all be black. Aj
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06-28-2010, 10:41 PM
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06-29-2010, 10:19 AM
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My Bleeding Heart......
Watch this video!! U.S. Supreme Court has decided to hear the legality issues in another Arizona immigration law!! "No Mas" - "No More"
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06-29-2010, 10:38 AM
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Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs
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06-29-2010, 11:22 AM
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you kill me. here is an interesting article, written no doubt, by a bleeding heart knee jerk liberal. http://www.american-reporter.com/3,972/9.html |
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06-29-2010, 11:41 AM
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I feel like everytime I read the news I see people advocating for intolerance.
I made the mistake of watching 8: The Mormon Proposition last night. The powerful wave of hatred towards gays shocked me. The fact that they so blatantly hate and conspired the way they did shocked me. Seeing Bill O'Reilly refer to the POTUS as "Mr. Obama" shocks me. Rand Paul shocks me. Sally Kern shocks me. A law written by a man with known racist/neo-nazi ties targeting brown people shocks me. I could go on and on and on with a list of people that are in powerful or political positions advocating for intolerance. However, I have not (nor will I ever) become numb to the feeling of shock. I am afraid that a majority of America has become numb, spewing back rhetoric heard on Faux News (which IMO is not a new outlet any longer, but a Political Lobbyist). Where is this all going to end? |
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