It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[Kobi]

dread,

Thank you. Your argument is one I can listen to. I can see the potential pitfalls in such legislation and why people would be upset about it.

Nonetheless, immigration reform needs to start somewhere and if the feds wont tackle the issue, the affected states have to develop their own plans. Maybe Arizona isnt the best standard but it is a starting place to develop something workable.

I have not said anything about immigrants and social services. Without proper documentation people are not able to get benefits of any kind at least in this state. So nothing was said about anyone sucking up welfare services. Health services are used by those without insurance which then ends up costing taxpayers more to cover the expenses. Educational services averaging over 12,000 per year per student adds up countrywide and again falls on taxpayers.

Perhaps people used to come here "to take our jobs". Now we export them....its cheaper to do so. From my labor union days, I can tell you that companies tried to placate workers by suggesting a two tier system of payments and benefits.....one for veterans and one for newbies. It was a ploy to cut expenses and wages with the workers backing. It was a terrible labor problem and we are seeing the fallout of such thinking these days. Auto workers making less than half what they are used to just to have jobs or these jobs will go overseas as well. This is not an immigration problem per se, it is an economic strategy problem fueled by workers willing to take less which lowers the standard of living for most people in the long run especially in an economic downturn.

And it is not just laborers. Financial institutions are looking to hire folks from Japan and China who are willing to work for less in corporate offices. The science industries are looking for foreign workers who are better suited to their businesses due to foreign emphasis on math and science skills as well as economics.

I had to chuckle at your political history of the our effects on other countries. It's kind of ironic how we can do so many bad things to peoples respective homelands but people still want to flock to this country. Strange thing irony.

As for people staying in their own countries and fighting for change.....we have done it here. The civil rights/gay rights movements meant conflict and hardship and death but it lead to changes. It is amazing what people can accomplish when they band together. And we were fighting an economic machine and the cia as well. It is not geopolitical niavete. It is a belief in how people who band together can force change to occur in spite of the economic machine and the cia. Otherwise we are all just pawns in a game, tossed about as others see fit. I refuse to believe any humans are that powerless as a whole.

I know immigration policy is a complex issue with strong emotional overtones. I just dont adhere to rhethoric on either side of the coin. Because for every argument, there is always another explanation, interpretation, point of view and study to support views one way or another. What made and makes this country great is the diverse points of view.

[Corkey]

Kobi, you aren't getting it, it is UN Constitutional. The federal government is the only entity that has the authority to make and enforce immigration reform. It is not a states right. What this law did was to usurp federal law, it won't pass muster. Please go back and read the bill of rights and the rest of the amendments, I do believe it is the 14th amendment.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

dread,

Thank you. Your argument is one I can listen to. I can see the potential pitfalls in such legislation and why people would be upset about it.

Nonetheless, immigration reform needs to start somewhere and if the feds wont tackle the issue, the affected states have to develop their own plans. Maybe Arizona isnt the best standard but it is a starting place to develop something workable.

I have not said anything about immigrants and social services. Without proper documentation people are not able to get benefits of any kind at least in this state. So nothing was said about anyone sucking up welfare services. Health services are used by those without insurance which then ends up costing taxpayers more to cover the expenses. Educational services averaging over 12,000 per year per student adds up countrywide and again falls on taxpayers.

Perhaps people used to come here "to take our jobs". Now we export them....its cheaper to do so. From my labor union days, I can tell you that companies tried to placate workers by suggesting a two tier system of payments and benefits.....one for veterans and one for newbies. It was a ploy to cut expenses and wages with the workers backing. It was a terrible labor problem and we are seeing the fallout of such thinking these days. Auto workers making less than half what they are used to just to have jobs or these jobs will go overseas as well. This is not an immigration problem per se, it is an economic strategy problem fueled by workers willing to take less which lowers the standard of living for most people in the long run especially in an economic downturn.

And it is not just laborers. Financial institutions are looking to hire folks from Japan and China who are willing to work for less in corporate offices. The science industries are looking for foreign workers who are better suited to their businesses due to foreign emphasis on math and science skills as well as economics.

I had to chuckle at your political history of the our effects on other countries. It's kind of ironic how we can do so many bad things to peoples respective homelands but people still want to flock to this country. Strange thing irony.

As for people staying in their own countries and fighting for change.....we have done it here. The civil rights/gay rights movements meant conflict and hardship and death but it lead to changes. It is amazing what people can accomplish when they band together. And we were fighting an economic machine and the cia as well. It is not geopolitical niavete. It is a belief in how people who band together can force change to occur in spite of the economic machine and the cia. Otherwise we are all just pawns in a game, tossed about as others see fit. I refuse to believe any humans are that powerless as a whole.

I know immigration policy is a complex issue with strong emotional overtones. I just dont adhere to rhethoric on either side of the coin. Because for every argument, there is always another explanation, interpretation, point of view and study to support views one way or another. What made and makes this country great is the diverse points of view.

Yes you do....

You stated so in your original post...

[Kobi]

Corkey, if it is unconstitutional it will be challenged and overturned.

Lady Snow...I give up. I have my views on immigration which is different from rhetoric but it is not even worth the effort.

Suffice to say, there are people outside of this forum with different views.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Corkey, if it is unconstitutional it will be challenged and overturned.

Lady Snow...I give up. I have my views on immigration which is different from rhetoric but it is not even worth the effort.

Suffice to say, there are people outside of this forum with different views.

Still missing the point, in the meantime, US citizens are being arrested and they're rights violated because of this. I just don't get how you can be this uninformed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Corkey, if it is unconstitutional it will be challenged and overturned.

Lady Snow...I give up. I have my views on immigration which is different from rhetoric but it is not even worth the effort.

Suffice to say, there are people outside of this forum with different views.

You realize this whole thread is about A LOT more than just immigrations issues, that law is just more than that as well..

Kobi this law has given power to someone to pull over another human being cause their skin color makes them suspicious...

You really can't see how this is a civil rights violation?

What about the ethnic studies issue?

This is an A-OK thing with you as well???

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Suffice to say, there are people outside of this forum with different views.

at klan rallies.

[Nat]

I was listening to a podcast the other day from the Southern Poverty Law Center, and their latest report is that hate groups in the US have risen to almost 1000. Racist hate groups are focusing more on anti-immigrant stuff right now because it's an effective way of recruiting more mainstream white people during a bad economy, but racism is still at the heart of things for many of these groups.

A bit of timeline

Early 1845 James Polk promises Texas he will support moving the historical Texas/Mexico border at the Nueces river 150 miles south to the Rio Grande provided Texas agrees to join the union. "The traditional border between Texas and Mexico had been the Nueces River...and both the United States and Mexico had recognized that as the border." (Zinn, p. 148)

June 30, 1845 James Polk orders troops to march south of the traditional Texas/Mexico border into Mexican inhabited territory, causing Mexicans to flee their villages and abandon their crops in terror.
"Ordering troops to the Rio Grande, into territory inhabited by Mexicans, was clearly a provocation." (Zinn, p. 148)

"President Polk had incited war by sending American soldiers into what was disputed territory, historically controlled and inhabited by Mexicans." (John Schroeder , "Mr. Polk's War")

Early 1846 Colonel Hitchcock, commander of the 3rd Infantry regiment, writes in his diary: "...the United States are the aggressors....We have not one particle of right to be here....It looks as if the government sent a small force on purpose to bring on a war, so as to have a pretext for taking California and as much of this country as it chooses....My heart is not in this business."

May 9, 1846 President Polk tells his cabinet: "...up to this time...we have heard of no open aggression by the Mexican Army."

May 10, 1846 Violence erupts between Mexican and American troops south of the Nueces River. Of course Polk claims Mexicans had fired the first shot, but in his famous "spot resolutions" congressman Abraham Lincoln repeatedly challenges president Polk to name the exact "spot" where Mexicans first attacked American troops. Polk never met the challenge.

May 11, 1846 President Polk urges congress to declare war on Mexico.

May 12, 1846 : Horace Greeley writes in the New York Tribune: "We can easily defeat the armies of Mexico, slaughter them by thousands, and pursue them perhaps to their capital; we can conquer and "annex" their territory; but what then? Who believes that a score of victories over Mexico, the "annexation" of half of her provinces, will give us more Liberty, a purer Morality, a more prosperous Industry...?

1846 Congressman Abraham Lincoln, speaking in a session of congress "...the president unnecessarily and unconstitutionally commenced a war with Mexico....The marching an army into the midst of a peaceful Mexican settlement, frightening the inhabitants away, leaving their growing crops and other property to destruction, to you may appear a perfectly amiable, peaceful, un- provoking procedure; but it does not appear so to us."

after war is underway, the American press comments:

February 11, 1847. The "Congressional Globe" reports: "...We must march from ocean to ocean....We must march from Texas straight to the Pacific ocean....It is the destiny of the white race, it is the destiny of the Anglo-Saxon Race."

The New York Herald: "The universal Yankee Nation can regenerate and disenthrall the people of Mexico in a few years; and we believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."

American Review writes of Mexicans "yielding to a superior population, insensibly oozing into her territories, changing her customs, and out-living, exterminating her weaker blood."

1846-1848 U.S. Army battles Mexico, not just enforcing the new Texas border at the Rio Grande but capturing Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and California (as well as marching as far south as Mexico City).

1848 Mexico surrenders on U.S. terms (U.S. takes over ownership of New Mexico, California, an expanded Texas, and more, for a token payment of $15 million, which leads the Whig Intelligencer to report: "We take nothing by conquest....Thank God").

(date unknown) General Ulysses S. Grant calls the Mexican War "the most unjust war ever undertaken by a stronger nation against a weaker one."

And for those who prefer cartoons:

[SuperFemme]

Arizona Immigration Law Violates Constitution, Guarantees Racial Profiling

By Mary Bauer, SPLC Legal Director

Arizona’s newly adopted immigration law is brazenly unconstitutional and will undoubtedly trample upon the civil rights of residents caught in its path.

By requiring local law enforcement to arrest a person when there is “reasonable suspicion” that the person is in the country illegally, Arizona lawmakers have created a system that guarantees racial profiling. They also have usurped federal authority by attempting to enforce immigration law.

Quite simply, this law is a civil rights disaster and an insult to American values. No one in our country should be required to produce their “papers” on demand to prove their innocence. What kind of country are we becoming?

When Arizona Governor Jan Brewer was asked what an undocumented immigrant looks like, she responded: “I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like. I can tell you that I think there are people in Arizona who assume that they know what an illegal immigrant looks like."

We all know what the outcome of all this double-talk will be. People with brown skin – regardless of whether they are U.S. citizens or legal residents – will be forced to prove their legal status to law enforcement officers time and again. One-third of Arizona’s population – those who are Latino – will be designated as second-class citizens, making anyone with brown skin a suspect even if their families have called Arizona home for generations.
Given the authors of this law, no one should be surprised about its intended targets. The law was drafted by a lawyer for the legal arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), whose founder has warned of a “Latin onslaught” and complained about Latinos’ alleged low “educability.” FAIR has accepted $1.2 million from the Pioneer Fund, a racist foundation that was set up by Nazi sympathizers to fund studies of eugenics, the science of selective breeding to produce a “better” race. The legislation was sponsored by state Senator Russell Pearce, who once e-mailed an anti-Semitic article from the neo-Nazi National Alliance website to supporters.

Making matters worse, lawmakers have allowed citizens to sue local law enforcement agencies that they believe are not adequately enforcing the new law. One can be sure that FAIR and its proxies are salivating at the prospects.

The law is not only unconstitutional, it’s bad public policy and will interfere with effective policing in Arizona’s communities. That’s why the legislation was opposed by the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police. As Latinos grow more fearful of law enforcement, they will be more reluctant to report crimes, and witnesses will be less likely to cooperate with police. Criminals will target the Latino community, confident their victims will keep quiet.

Lawmakers in other states are eager to replicate this ill-advised law. Their frustration with current immigration policy is understandable, but this system must be remedied by our Congress, which should enact fair immigration reform. The federal government must craft a policy that repairs our broken immigration system and, at the same time, protects our most cherished values. States that attempt to follow Arizona’s example will only succeed in sowing fear, discord and intolerance in our communities while undermining law enforcement and inviting costly constitutional challenges.

Learn more
The Tanton Files: Nativist Leader's Racist Past Exposed
The Teflon Nativists: FAIR Marked by Ties to White Supremacy

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informe...cial-profiling

[dreadgeek]

I'm curious. What WOULD it take for what is happening in Arizona to raise the hackles of people who are sanguine about it? If you think this is a good law, if you think that the directive that came down from Governor Brewer that ethnic studies programs will be eliminated was a good idea and that neither of those are any more racially charged as, say, a law against driving 100mph in a school zone is, what would make it take for you to say "okay, THIS is racially charged".

I ask because the combination of the immigration law, the ethnic studies law and an elementary school lightening the faces of children in a mural because there were too many brown faces even though the mural is of children attending the school sets off all kinds of racial red flags for me.

It seems to me that Arizona is targeting Hispanics. It seems to me that a lot of the anti-immigration rhetoric is either racially charged or walks right up to the line of it. There are clear tracks from white supremacist groups to the law, to the banning of ethnic studies and the lightening of the faces on the mural. All of that taken together should, I think, give us a moment of pause.

I would also like an explanation from anyone who cares to give one what it is about racist ideas that has made America stronger. The statement has been made and defended by at least two posters that the strength of America is the diversity of ideas with no qualifiers. I presume, then, that this applies even to ideas that are as abhorrent as racism. So if, in the name of diversity, we should want all ideas to be treated as equal such that we should not even try to argue *down* ideas that we find odious--and part of what I was called to task on by Sabine seems to be my willingness to argue down a position I disagree with--what are the strengths that America has gained from racist ideas such that we should not want those ideas eliminated and should, in fact, possibly even want them disseminated widely. Surely, no one is saying that we should have a diversity if ideas as long as some ideas aren't spread far and wide.

Now, if you are going to answer please keep in mind that the argument "America was made better by racist ideas because we overcame them" is both insulting AND callous. It is insulting because it basically takes all those who were beaten or killed in the cause of civil rights were just so many eggs that had to be broken. It is callous because it would be like saying to the woman who has lost her family, her vision and her ability to walk in a terrible car accident "you are SO lucky that this happened to you because now you have adversity to overcome". Would it not be better for that woman if her family were still alive, she could still see and still walk even if that meant she was somewhat less of an inspiring person? I would argue that her life would be better being less inspiring with her family, her eyesight and her legs. In the same vein, I would argue that although we are rightfully proud that America made slavery illegal and eventually got around to the idea that non-white citizens were ALSO citizens before the law, it would have been better for all parties concerned over the last 230 years if those issues hadn't been there for us to get over.

If anyone takes up my questions, I thank them for it in advance. I really want to know what you think America gains from racism such that an America without racism would be a weaker nation than one with it.

If a less abstract question would help here it is: imagine your son or daughter or your lover consistently made racist statements. Would you try to discourage them or would you accept those statements without criticism because those are diverse ideas? If the former, why would you discourage those ideas and try to convince your loved one that they were wrong? If the latter, then on what basis can you say that racism--even racism codified into law--is wrong? Why is it wrong?

[SuperFemme]

Since the Presidential Election it seems to me that racism is coming out of the shadows in this country.

It frightens me. In a big way. I am often incredulous that the American people are okay with what they are seeing and hearing.

The very same people who use the constitution as a catch all for bad behaviors are willing to just undo the fourteenth amendment? What about section 3?

As a mother, there have been times my children have come home with some very upsetting comments. We have to sit down and hash out the WHY'S of it all. This past year proved particularly difficult, because we now live in a very white, very christian and very Republican area. My son came home with lots of thoughts from his class mates. One time he told me how the boys in his class had said that the one POC in the class was a thief because of her skin color. He'd argued and gotten in a fight and consequently was mad at ME. Luckily we were able to sit him down and work it out.

How could I not? I am often times in company that feels ok with making racial slurs/jokes whatever. I have light skin, so when the wetback jokes start flying I am often met with shock and embarassment when I call it out. Mind you something shifts, and those people don't invite me to have lunch with them or make prolonged eye contact anymore.

So why is it wrong? Because no human being deserves bad treatment based on the color of their skin. Or hair. Or religion. No one person is ever "better" than another.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

So why is it wrong? Because no human being deserves bad treatment based on the color of their skin. Or hair. Or religion. No one person is ever "better" than another.

SF:

And this right there is why I am so passionate about this. Ideas have consequences. This is why I think it matters if we are able to say "no, these ideas are wrong and here is why." It's why I can no longer pretend that ideas are neutral in their effects. Ideas have consequences and we should evaluate ideas on a number of criteria--including what those consequences are. I also believe that there are inviolate ideals--like peaceful tolerance as much as is humanly possible and without jeopardizing the lives of others. But with that comes the responsibility to defend tolerance and the tolerant society against those who would advocate for intolerance.

Ideas matter because people matter. The minute we decide that all ideas, (even the idea that not all people matter) are equally valid, equally worthy of consideration and just part of the diversity of ideas we have set up the tolerant society to fail. There are ideas we should be on the lookout for and prepared to argue against with all our passion. Like many others here, I believe that there is a non-trivial element of racism in the Arizona law. This doesn't mean I believe that anyone arguing here has racist reasons for supporting it. I believe that racism is one such idea that we should be prepared to say loudly and repeatedly, 'This idea is wrong. Here is why it is wrong. Here is why it is invalid. Here is why it is dangerous.'

I am willing to tolerate anything this side of the advocacy of intolerance. Neither democracy nor tolerance are suicide pacts.

Thank you for having the courage to call out bad ideas when they are spoken to you. I'm sorry that it costs you community but thank you nonetheless.

[Toughy]

Aj..........this is what it would take:

Sally gets stopped for not using a turn signal. Sally gets all nervous and cop gets suspicious that Sally might be without papers because she averted her eyes and fumbled around in her purse and looked around nervously. Cop decides that Sally's driver's license doesn't look authentic....it looks like a forgery. Cop asks Sally for her proof of citizenship.....her birth certificate. Sally of course does not carry her birth certificate on her person....she was born in this country, so was her mother and her grandmother and her great-grandmother....she don't need no stinking papers.

Cop then arrests Sally and takes her to jail....her car goes to the impound lot. It's Friday evening at 7:00pm. Sally actually gets her phone call...........she calls Mom.....Mom does not have a copy of said birth certificate and can't get one before Tuesday morning because all government offices are closed until Tuesday (Monday is a holiday....Labor Day).

Long story short............Sally sits her ass in jail until Tuesday......well maybe longer depending on how fast Mom can get birth certificate or until the DA decides she really is a citizen. Then it's gonna cost her 200-300+ bucks to get her car out of impound. And if she was supposed to be at work she may well lose her job.

Sally is a white girl and now Sally is beyond pissed at the 'papers please' laws.

The above scenario has happened to brown folks in AZ who are born in this country, whose parents and grandparents and great grandparents were born in this country.

[dreadgeek]

This is what I don't understand--how can *anyone* be sanguine about this law? How can people *not* put themselves in that scenario and imagine it happening to them. And then I remember just how different things can be. The other night, on the way home from our anniversary dinner, a cop pulled up to us as we were passing the downtown police HQ. He asked if he could turn in front of us (we were at the curbside, he was in the middle lane), and told us that our passenger side taillight was stuck in 'on'. As we drove away J commented "I wonder how that would have gone if you'd been driving and this wasn't an Audi". This is a thought that only would have occurred to J since being with me. She's not racist. She's not callous. She's white, from Salt Lake City and it just never occurred to her that it was like this for non-white people.

Thank you for making the scenario visceral.

Originally Posted by Toughy

Aj..........this is what it would take:

Sally gets stopped for not using a turn signal. Sally gets all nervous and cop gets suspicious that Sally might be without papers because she averted her eyes and fumbled around in her purse and looked around nervously. Cop decides that Sally's driver's license doesn't look authentic....it looks like a forgery. Cop asks Sally for her proof of citizenship.....her birth certificate. Sally of course does not carry her birth certificate on her person....she was born in this country, so was her mother and her grandmother and her great-grandmother....she don't need no stinking papers.

Cop then arrests Sally and takes her to jail....her car goes to the impound lot. It's Friday evening at 7:00pm. Sally actually gets her phone call...........she calls Mom.....Mom does not have a copy of said birth certificate and can't get one before Tuesday morning because all government offices are closed until Tuesday (Monday is a holiday....Labor Day).

Long story short............Sally sits her ass in jail until Tuesday......well maybe longer depending on how fast Mom can get birth certificate or until the DA decides she really is a citizen. Then it's gonna cost her 200-300+ bucks to get her car out of impound. And if she was supposed to be at work she may well lose her job.

Sally is a white girl and now Sally is beyond pissed at the 'papers please' laws.

The above scenario has happened to brown folks in AZ who are born in this country, whose parents and grandparents and great grandparents were born in this country.

[SuperFemme]

I really appreciate your posts here AJ.

I too, wonder what would have happened had you not been in that Audi the other night, because I've seen it way too many times to pretend it doesn't happen.

We have relatives coming over from El Paso next month. Can I just tell you how surreal it was to have several conversations with them about what "paperwork" they should bring along because they have to drive through AZ.

They are worried that a birth certificate isn't enough, even though they are 7th generation Americans. They go right to the nightmare scenario of being detained and having social services take their small children.

Seriously. Who should be worrying about ICE when going to visit Mickey Mouse?

[dreadgeek]

A couple of folks have said things to me privately since my last response to Kobi about my patience. Thank you. I'm glad it's noticed. However, I have no other real choice. Without getting anywhere *near* saying anything like "white people are to blame..." Kobi tried to give me the "you have to not blame white people for your life" lecture to put me on the right path. Now imagine if I had lost my nut and just turned on the flames. I would have fully validated the whole "you're just an angry black woman" meme that the "your leaders..." comment was symptomatic of. This preternatural calm comes hard and it has taken years and years of practice for it to become second nature but it is the only choice. Those of you who know me in the hard-world know what I do for a living--there is no way in *hell* anyone would ever have hired me for my first gig if I had come off as an angry black woman and there's no way I would have had a second gig if I did.

Kobi you made one more mistake that I think you might need pointed out to you. Of the men you mentioned--DuBois, Washington, Garvey, Farrakhan and Malcolm X, only two of them do I agree with substantially (the first two) and only one of whom I would take as a role model (DuBois). My 'leaders', my role models--my parents and grandparents notwithstanding--are largely not black men or women. If I am trying to style my life after anyone it is these people:

Charles Darwin
Albert Einstein
Paul Dirac
Steven Weinberg
Rachel Carson
Rosalyn Franklin
Richard Dawkins
E. O. Wilson
Lynn Margulis
Steven Hawking
Ed Witten
Carl Sagan
Richard Feynman
Michio Kaku
Lee Smolin
Terry Pratchett
Douglas Adams
Martin Luther King
Mark Knopfler
Susan Jacoby
Mae Jameson
Richard Hofstadter


Those are people I look up to. They are the ones who (at least the living ones) if I met I would be dumbfounded, starstruck and humbled to be in their very presence. These are MY leaders. DuBois, Washington, Malcolm X, Farrakhan, Garvey and the Obamas all share a phenotype with me (within a certain range) but that does not make them my heroes or my role models. I am a scientist and a writer, my heroes and role models are largely scientists and writers.

As a rule, it's a mistake to assume that because someone is, say, black their heroes, role models, guiding stars will all be black.

Aj

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'm curious. What WOULD it take for what is happening in Arizona to raise the hackles of people who are sanguine about it?

Given that the alternative is having to agree with a bunch of bleeding heart knee jerk commie socialist fascist nazi liberals who support a president who wasn't even born in this country, my guess is "nothing will".

[The_Lady_Snow]

Watch this video!! U.S. Supreme Court has decided to hear the legality issues in another Arizona immigration law!! "No Mas" - "No More"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...86278#37986278

[The_Lady_Snow]

Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100624/..._take_our_jobs

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

Given that the alternative is having to agree with a bunch of bleeding heart knee jerk commie socialist fascist nazi liberals who support a president who wasn't even born in this country, my guess is "nothing will".

you kill me. here is an interesting article, written no doubt, by a bleeding heart knee jerk liberal.

http://www.american-reporter.com/3,972/9.html