Religious Holidays in Public Schools

[christie]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think schools shouldn't have religious holidays and should take all of them out of the school calendars. Separation of church and state. Yes I believed this as a kid.

I agree with you, Corkey. I have never understood why religious (read: Christian) holidays were a part of a school calendar, especially with school prayer out the window.

This piqued my interest and I went to check Bratboy's high school calendar for the 10-11 year - 24 school holidays with two being religious. Good Friday and Easter Monday.

Easter Monday?!?!?!? Until we moved to smalltown, BFE VA, I had never HEARD of "Easter Monday." Last year, the mominlaw planned a big family shindig... on Easter Monday. Imagine her shock and awe that my company didn't recognize it AND that I had never even fathomed such a thing. The look on her face was one who had just seen the debil herself

[EnderD_503]

In Canada, students of non-Christian faith are allowed to take their own religious holidays off. I grew up in an area with a high Christian Orthodox population, and eastern European kids who observed those holidays (particularly Orthodox Easter which varies from Catholic Easte) were always permitted to take their own Easter and Good Friday off. Just as Chinese students were able to take the Chinese New Year off (actually, Chinese New Year has become pretty big in Toronto even among those who aren't of Chinese descent). Same thing went for all other faiths and nationalities. Personally, I'm perfectly ok with this practice of letting religious individuals take days off according to their own holidays, as long as they aren't made official holidays. I don't believe religion or religious holidays have any place in public schools or in the work place. As such, I don't think we should be adding in any other religious holidays into the system, since we're already trying to eradicate/rename/re-identify the Christian ones.

I wouldn't say that most or even the majority of our holidays are religious holidays in Canada, in the school system or outside of it. Our national statutory holidays are Christmas Day, New Year's Day, Canada Day, Labour Day and Good Friday (though a lot of shops are still open on Good Friday anyway, in Toronto).

Mid-term break in the school system coincides with Thanksgiving (second week of October here in Canada), and just makes sense with the way the Canadian public school system organises its semesters. However, I should also note that Thanksgiving in Canada does not have the same religious connotations as in the US, and is not counted as a religious holiday here.

As for Christmas holidays, it isn't referred to as such here anymore (at least, I haven't heard it referred to that way officially since middle school). In schools it's referred to as the winter holidays/vacation rather than Christmas holidays. In some universities a portion of the winter holidays are also known as "exam time." I am against this particular "holiday," personally

Whatever you choose to call it, I think it should remain. Students need the break. I'm of the belief that breaks are a good thing and should not be reduced. Germany is one of the nations with the most (largely religious) holidays in the world, and yet its population is one of the most productive in the world, with a good work ethic. I think it goes to show, that as long as the work ethic is high, holidays are good thing. North American society is far too high strung at times.

Other commonly celebrated holidays that warrant a day off school in Canada are Victoria Day (last Monday in May, celebrates Queen Victoria's birthday) aka the infamous May 2-4 weekend, Civic Holiday at the beginning of August and Family Day in February (which they just made up to give people a break in February because we didn't have one :P). We also have March Break in public schools, which typically coincides with Reading Week in universities.

The only real religious holiday left is Good Friday, really. I think that would be a tough one to get rid of, and I'm not sure it would really be necessary to get rid of it right now. The problem I have with renaming religious holidays (I don't think the breaks themselves should be removed) is that we start pretending those days are something they are not. It's like the aftermath of the French revolution when the government began renaming things that had religious or monarchic connotations according to so-called "French culture" (which excluded regional cultures like Norman, Breton and Provençal in favour of a so-called "unified French culture"). To me it just becomes this kind of Orwellian double-speak that I'd rather not see infect society. I think the holiday will eventually eliminate itself. In Canada only approximately 25% of the population attends religious services regularly or even considers religion of significant importance in their lives. More than likely this trend will continue, and the holiday well eventually rename itself, so to speak, at which point it will be far more genuine. It's very easy to rename Christmas holidays as winter holidays, and if the same was done with Good Friday I would be fine with that...as long as it was not renamed to something ridiculous as is sometimes done when the government wants to put in an extra holiday.

That's my take on the matter, anyway, and I, personally, hope that eventually the last of of the religious holidays observed in the Canadian school system (Good Friday) will soon go the way of the dodo bird, by choice of the Canadian people.

[Soon]

Ender,

Great post.

Not only does Canada (well, at least Ontario) have Good Friday off in schools (and is named as such) but Easter Monday as well.

Most of the students where I am at refer to it as Christmas (not Winter) Break/Holidays/Vacation--maybe it's a regional thing.

And I concur with you about students just taking their own time off as needed for other faith based days. I have never heard of any student being penalized for missing day(s) due to Ramadan etc. (we have a fairly high Muslim population where I live).

I'm with you about breaks not being reduced...I still miss the three months on/two weeks off system in Australia. (with longer for summer holidays)

[Corkey]

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

I was curious about that statement of Ender's too and was hoping a US citizen would chime in.

Does your Thanksgiving have religious connotations?

Canada's doesn't at all.


We only get one day off for Thanksgiving as well--I think you have more days on that one? (2?)

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I was curious about that statement of Ender's too and was hoping US citizen would chime in.

Does your Thanksgiving have religious connotations?

Canada's doesn't at all.

Not in my world, it is a holiday to give thanks, for some that is to their god, to others it is to their ancestors, and to Mother Earth. But as far as a religious holiday...not really no.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, Thanksgiving is really about spending time with my family and eating good food...having the time off is NICE. However, I would not care when we have the time off. Well, I do like the comfort feel foods we have, but we can make that anytime

The whole premise of Thanksgiving has changed over the years and I wonder if kids these days even know what it is for

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Thanksgiving was never religious in my home. It is just like Sassy said. It is all about food!

Originally Posted by Corkey

Not in my world, it is a holiday to give thanks, for some that is to their god, to others it is to their ancestors, and to Mother Earth. But as far as a religious holiday...not really no.

I look at it as a day to celebrate the White Man's survival with help from the Native people whose land they took and whom they abused and killed either outright or with White Men's diseases.

I find obligatory family events really stressful too.

I like Halloween...yes, I know it has religious connotations too, but I love the Gothic stuff!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

We only get one day off for Thanksgiving as well--I think you have more days on that one? (2?)

I've only when working had the one day off, when not actually working that day. At school I had one day off, still had to show up at school on Friday.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

No, it isn't religious and what you say here is quite true. It is actually an affront to Native Americans. It has no religious sanctioning at all, however, it was the design of founders in the US seeking religious freedom and drenched in their religious underpinnings which were Christian.

We in the US have been sold the myth of Thanksgiving lock, stock and barrel! If it had any intention of gratitude to natives, the traditional Thanksgiving meal would be fish and corn!

I can get behind being thankful for many things in my life, but I can't celebrate this holiday as it is portrayed in the US. It is a good day of the year to talk to family about what it represents to the Native people here with some honesty. An opportunity to own history as it really happened. The least we can do, I believe. But, these are my personal feelings. And, yes, I do enjoy this day with family and friends, and hopefully in a more truthful manner.

I have similar feelings about Columbus Day. That is not a kind or honest holiday for Native Americans.

[Corkey]

Sometimes I'm sorry our People ever helped the white man. Perhaps they are grateful the People didn't kill them and serve them for dinner. ( attempt at light hearted humor)

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

[FONT="Georgia"]Ender,

Great post.

Not only does Canada (well, at least Ontario) have Good Friday off in schools (and is named as such) but Easter Monday as well.

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).

Most of the students where I am at refer to it as Christmas (not Winter) Break/Holidays/Vacation--maybe it's a regional thing.

I should have clarified, but I meant officially in schools. Teachers and professors I've had never refered to it as the Christmas holidays back in high school or in university, but as "the holidays" or "winter holidays," both while living in Toronto as well as out on the East Coast. It could differ region to region, though, like you suggest. With students I notice it can go either way, Christmas holidays or winter holidays/vacation, though even then I see it used less and less.

About the American Thanksgiving thing...it could be I'm just totally ignorant about American Thanksgiving. From what I've read, what American friends have told me (those friends are mainly from Indiana and Minnesota if that tells anyone anything) and just general media I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.

That is so weird. Especially the Easter Monday thing. I for the life of me can't remember ever having a four day weekend over Easter, and thought it was just something they started doing a few years ago or something. I'm going to do some digging around, or else this is going to drive me absolutely insane. Maybe I can find some old calendars from univerisity lying around, too, to vouch for my sanity on the Easter Monday thing.

I'm getting hits on both Christmas Break and Winter Break on different TDSB links, oddly enough. For example here: schools.tdsb.on.ca/jarvisci/misc/calendar_SeptDec08.rtf they call it Winter Break, while others call it Christmas Break. I'm having a sneaking suspicion that this may differ from school to school.

On a side note I saw some calendars refering to what we used to call March Break as "Mid-Winter Break," is that a recent change? Sounds so odd.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

No, it isn't religious and what you say here is quite true. It is actually an affront to Native Americans. It has no religious sanctioning at all, however, it was the design of founders in the US seeking religious freedom and drenched in their religious underpinnings which were Christian.

It was specifically religious in origin. The first actual official Thanksgiving of the United States of America was declared by the Continental Congress in 1777 as a response to winning the Revolutionary War, and the proclamation begins, "FOR AS MUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for Benefits received..." It goes on in that manner for a couple paragraphs as it sets out the recommendation that all the people in the country should "consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor..." There's no mention of feasting, only of prayer.

What we are supposed to be celebrating with Thanksgiving (winning a war) has gotten muddled up with the Pilgrims' harvest feasts--for the Pilgrims, "Thanksgiving" celebrations didn't involve meals, but prayer and fasting; it was the harvest feast that involved a big meal--and has morphed over the past couple hundred years into a children's mythology taught in schools, the media, and churches. The actual sentiments behind George Washington's and the Continental Congress' Thanksgiving proclamations--prayerful gratitude for this country's independence--are now celebrated on the Fourth of July, but the religious trappings have fallen away from that day.

Here is a quote from the proclamation Lincoln made in 1863; we have as a nation celebrated Thanksgiving every year since. "They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens."

Again no mention of feasting, only of prayer.

I personally believe there is no way to say that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, given the government proclamations that established it.

For anyone who is interested, a very basic intro to the history of Thanksgiving in the US is here, in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States)

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

.... I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

It's become part of the myth over the past couple hundred years that the Pilgrims celebrated Thanksgiving the way it's celebrated today--minus the football, of course! but with lacrosse and weaponry exhibitions--and yes, schoolchildren are inculcated with the "Pilgrims and Indians" story. It is true that in 1621 there was a harvest festival which was shared between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag Native Americans, and that "fowl" (possibly wild turkey) was featured on the menu. It is also true that in 1622 there was a slaughter of Native Americans before the next harvest festival. It was a terrible repayment of the gift of land, food, and help which had been so freely given.

Popular culture in the US downplays this travesty and repeats the sweetly sentimental "Pilgrims and Indians Thanksgiving" myth incessantly, much to the dismay of anyone who cares about Native American peoples.

I found an amazingly beautiful reclamation of Thanksgiving by a Native American. http://www.alternet.org/story/4391/

For me, the holiday is about the gifts of Native foods--turkey, corn, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, green beans, wild rice, pumpkins, pecans, sugar cane, etc; I celebrate the bounty of this continent and the awesome gift of Native American agriculture to the world. My Thanksgiving is to those who walked these lands before me, those who guided the crops into the foods I love, those whose spirits still sing beneath my feet. My gratitude is to them.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.

Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

All I know is we had Easter Monday off when I was a kid going to school in Ontario in the 1970's (and I'm 40) and we still have it now. So, in total, schools have four days off for what is titled, "Easter Break".

I'm not sure when it was added.

Easter Break was entirely separate from what we call March or Spring Break.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

I grew up in the South Bay and it was the same for us...and this was also the 70's.

I do not remember having Monday off or maybe it was added to a week after? I will need to ask my mom. And it was still called Easter Break.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).



I should have clarified, but I meant officially in schools. Teachers and professors I've had never refered to it as the Christmas holidays back in high school or in university, but as "the holidays" or "winter holidays," both while living in Toronto as well as out on the East Coast. It could differ region to region, though, like you suggest. With students I notice it can go either way, Christmas holidays or winter holidays/vacation, though even then I see it used less and less.

About the American Thanksgiving thing...it could be I'm just totally ignorant about American Thanksgiving. From what I've read, what American friends have told me (those friends are mainly from Indiana and Minnesota if that tells anyone anything) and just general media I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

Yes, it is, however it is an affront to Native peoples. We don't celebrate, it is a sad ending to our way of life. Now don't get me wrong, we still eat, but we aren't celebrating with thanks to the white god. Those of us who retain our heritage, find other ways of giving thanks.

[AtLast]

My late partner was Pagan and observed Winter Solstice which did not always coincide with the Winter/Christmas break for her as a teacher or her kids in public schools. So, she took them off and had the kids out of school on Pagan ritual celebrations. She actually had to get a letter from an attorney to do so!

This whole thing just gets down to separation of church and state for me like I said before. And the fact that public schools are under a federal department (and non-Christian citizens pay taxes) even with local school districts. They are secular institutions. Of course this has been blurred in the US from the beginning!

I also remember as a kid how other non-Christian (or atheists, agnostic) kids were really ostracized in school because of religious differences. Today, more than ever, I feel respecting and honoring world religions is critical. Remaining locked in a Christian school holiday calendar is not helpful in kids understanding that everyone may or may not believe the same way.

When I think of the hate-crimes based upon religious intolerance, myth, and just plain bigotry, I really see a need to change how public school holiday calendars need to be changed. I also feel that public school curriculums should include modules on world religions and atheism.

I am a person of faith and deeply spiritual, but, I see this as a personal space and have no right to put my spiritual values on anyone else. I want to understand the various religions in the world as well. So much myth and plain misinterpretation going on that leads to hate and violence.

Something I enjoy and that has taught me a lot is going to various religious or spiritual celebrations belonging to others. It enables me to see beyond myself and my religious and spiritual realm. That feels like the true meaning of Grace to me…. Understanding how others experience religion, faith or spirituality.