Religious Holidays in Public Schools

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

[FONT="Georgia"]Ender,

Great post.

Not only does Canada (well, at least Ontario) have Good Friday off in schools (and is named as such) but Easter Monday as well.

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).

Most of the students where I am at refer to it as Christmas (not Winter) Break/Holidays/Vacation--maybe it's a regional thing.

I should have clarified, but I meant officially in schools. Teachers and professors I've had never refered to it as the Christmas holidays back in high school or in university, but as "the holidays" or "winter holidays," both while living in Toronto as well as out on the East Coast. It could differ region to region, though, like you suggest. With students I notice it can go either way, Christmas holidays or winter holidays/vacation, though even then I see it used less and less.

About the American Thanksgiving thing...it could be I'm just totally ignorant about American Thanksgiving. From what I've read, what American friends have told me (those friends are mainly from Indiana and Minnesota if that tells anyone anything) and just general media I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.

That is so weird. Especially the Easter Monday thing. I for the life of me can't remember ever having a four day weekend over Easter, and thought it was just something they started doing a few years ago or something. I'm going to do some digging around, or else this is going to drive me absolutely insane. Maybe I can find some old calendars from univerisity lying around, too, to vouch for my sanity on the Easter Monday thing.

I'm getting hits on both Christmas Break and Winter Break on different TDSB links, oddly enough. For example here: schools.tdsb.on.ca/jarvisci/misc/calendar_SeptDec08.rtf they call it Winter Break, while others call it Christmas Break. I'm having a sneaking suspicion that this may differ from school to school.

On a side note I saw some calendars refering to what we used to call March Break as "Mid-Winter Break," is that a recent change? Sounds so odd.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

No, it isn't religious and what you say here is quite true. It is actually an affront to Native Americans. It has no religious sanctioning at all, however, it was the design of founders in the US seeking religious freedom and drenched in their religious underpinnings which were Christian.

It was specifically religious in origin. The first actual official Thanksgiving of the United States of America was declared by the Continental Congress in 1777 as a response to winning the Revolutionary War, and the proclamation begins, "FOR AS MUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for Benefits received..." It goes on in that manner for a couple paragraphs as it sets out the recommendation that all the people in the country should "consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor..." There's no mention of feasting, only of prayer.

What we are supposed to be celebrating with Thanksgiving (winning a war) has gotten muddled up with the Pilgrims' harvest feasts--for the Pilgrims, "Thanksgiving" celebrations didn't involve meals, but prayer and fasting; it was the harvest feast that involved a big meal--and has morphed over the past couple hundred years into a children's mythology taught in schools, the media, and churches. The actual sentiments behind George Washington's and the Continental Congress' Thanksgiving proclamations--prayerful gratitude for this country's independence--are now celebrated on the Fourth of July, but the religious trappings have fallen away from that day.

Here is a quote from the proclamation Lincoln made in 1863; we have as a nation celebrated Thanksgiving every year since. "They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens."

Again no mention of feasting, only of prayer.

I personally believe there is no way to say that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, given the government proclamations that established it.

For anyone who is interested, a very basic intro to the history of Thanksgiving in the US is here, in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States)

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

.... I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

It's become part of the myth over the past couple hundred years that the Pilgrims celebrated Thanksgiving the way it's celebrated today--minus the football, of course! but with lacrosse and weaponry exhibitions--and yes, schoolchildren are inculcated with the "Pilgrims and Indians" story. It is true that in 1621 there was a harvest festival which was shared between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag Native Americans, and that "fowl" (possibly wild turkey) was featured on the menu. It is also true that in 1622 there was a slaughter of Native Americans before the next harvest festival. It was a terrible repayment of the gift of land, food, and help which had been so freely given.

Popular culture in the US downplays this travesty and repeats the sweetly sentimental "Pilgrims and Indians Thanksgiving" myth incessantly, much to the dismay of anyone who cares about Native American peoples.

I found an amazingly beautiful reclamation of Thanksgiving by a Native American. http://www.alternet.org/story/4391/

For me, the holiday is about the gifts of Native foods--turkey, corn, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, green beans, wild rice, pumpkins, pecans, sugar cane, etc; I celebrate the bounty of this continent and the awesome gift of Native American agriculture to the world. My Thanksgiving is to those who walked these lands before me, those who guided the crops into the foods I love, those whose spirits still sing beneath my feet. My gratitude is to them.

[Rockinonahigh]

Black friday...NOOOOOOO not me,id rather walk thrue hot coals barefoot than be caught in any retail store on that day...talk about crazies out there in masses..yikes!!

[Unndunn]

I voted "I Don't Care" because none of the other options were close to what I think.

I think each school district should set their calendar based on the members of the community they are providing for. They have the data, and I don't think it would be that difficult to build the schedule around the needs of that particular community. If you know that 75% of your students are muslim, it would make sense to schedule that day off since all of those students would be missing the lessons taught on that day.

It was never an issue in my hometown because there was very little diversity. In my senior class in high school (class of '83) there were two jewish students out of 180 students. I know this because we were in the same home room and they would talk about when they would be out for high holidays, etc. I know that the school didn't count the days they took off for high holidays as absences. It wouldn't have been practical to have school on Christmas when about 99% of the student body would be home celebrating.

It's late and I'm way over tired so I shouldn't even be posting. I don't have any kids, but I do work with children, so school schedules do affect my work schedule.

[MsDemeanor]

Too bad we can't just get rid of all this pesky religion silliness, that would solve the issue.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Unndunn

I voted "I Don't Care" because none of the other options were close to what I think.

I think each school district should set their calendar based on the members of the community they are providing for. They have the data, and I don't think it would be that difficult to build the schedule around the needs of that particular community. If you know that 75% of your students are muslim, it would make sense to schedule that day off since all of those students would be missing the lessons taught on that day.

It was never an issue in my hometown because there was very little diversity. In my senior class in high school (class of '83) there were two jewish students out of 180 students. I know this because we were in the same home room and they would talk about when they would be out for high holidays, etc. I know that the school didn't count the days they took off for high holidays as absences. It wouldn't have been practical to have school on Christmas when about 99% of the student body would be home celebrating.

It's late and I'm way over tired so I shouldn't even be posting. I don't have any kids, but I do work with children, so school schedules do affect my work schedule.

I have to disagree. In a private school, polling a family's religious beliefs and catering to the majority is plausible. In the public school district I teach in, we do not know the religion of our students(unless the student or parent tells us.)

Furthermore, it is public education, not majority education. It is an easy answer to say, majority rules, but does that teach diversity or acceptance? A break schedule that removes ANY religious acknowledgement separates public schools from favoring one religion over another. Public schools should give students days off without penalty for religious observances.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Unndunn

I voted "I Don't Care" because none of the other options were close to what I think.

I think each school district should set their calendar based on the members of the community they are providing for. They have the data, and I don't think it would be that difficult to build the schedule around the needs of that particular community. If you know that 75% of your students are muslim, it would make sense to schedule that day off since all of those students would be missing the lessons taught on that day.

It was never an issue in my hometown because there was very little diversity. In my senior class in high school (class of '83) there were two jewish students out of 180 students. I know this because we were in the same home room and they would talk about when they would be out for high holidays, etc. I know that the school didn't count the days they took off for high holidays as absences. It wouldn't have been practical to have school on Christmas when about 99% of the student body would be home celebrating.

It's late and I'm way over tired so I shouldn't even be posting. I don't have any kids, but I do work with children, so school schedules do affect my work schedule.

UnDunn -- It becomes more than missing classes on certain days. My kids grew up in a 90% Christian community. I had to purchase Menorahs and Kinara's for the school. While at home we celebrated everything - it really did effect my children when they would see in the classroom all of the holiday art pertaining to the birth of Christ. It became apparent they were "jews/muslims" during the holiday season, yet simply "kids" the other times of the year. I always thought being raised in a lesbian household would be tough for them -but it wasn't the issue at all - it was their religion and the fact they were a minority which stood out.

My kids also when they were young, were not given the jewish or muslim holidays off - only Christian. What about the other religions who do not celebrate any holidays? While today they might call their concerts Holiday Concerts in some communities - it is still filled with songs of Christianity.

And be damned if you do not stand for the pledge of allegiance. Bottom line, we are not all the same when it comes to our religious beliefs - yet we are all the same when it comes to humanity.

This country has a much deeper and richer Native American History -- Perhaps we should cancel out the "invader" religions and stick to Native American religions and honor those.

Julie

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.

Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

All I know is we had Easter Monday off when I was a kid going to school in Ontario in the 1970's (and I'm 40) and we still have it now. So, in total, schools have four days off for what is titled, "Easter Break".

I'm not sure when it was added.

Easter Break was entirely separate from what we call March or Spring Break.

[JustJo]

Kids are still getting the Indians and Pilgrims feasting together version of Thanksgiving taught in school....at least in our schools. It's one of those shams that gets taught as history often, and drvies me nuts.

I'm not comfortable with either the Indian/Pilgrim feast or the religious version of the holiday...so in our house we decided to look at the name Thanksgiving, and do just that. We invite friends, we have a beautiful meal, and we go around the table and talk a bit about what each of us are grateful for that year.

For us, it's a day to spend reflecting on the things and people we are grateful for...pure and simple. That just works much better for me.

[Soon]

I have to say I am really surprised by the amount of responses who voted to add more religious holidays.

In public institutions, shouldn't the Christian names of existing holidays be phased out -- as opposed to adding more religious observance days to the school calendars?

[Jess]

I think in our area the "Easter Monday" got added to allow a set 4 day weekend, as it used to be a full Mon- Fri ( plus weekend) off for Easter or Spring break. Missed days during the year due to snow changed it so as not to have to add more days on to the end of the year. I recall some years where we had no spring break at all, as we had missed so many snow days. I think it just became an easier solution than not having any break. I think parents agreed to it as they rather enjoyed the 4 day weekends that came with Labor Day and Memorial Day(s).

What still surprises me , in addition to the fact we still even have religious holidays, is that in a great deal of the rural South, we still have approved days off for kids during the first week of hunting season ( specifically deer) and for harvest time ( in re: tobacco). This always tended to be mostly a "boy" holiday ( hunting) as in some schools, half the male population was gone during that week. ( Just an observation...LOL )

I think seasonal breaks are good for students/ teachers and parents not unlike vacation time annually. It still boggles me that the USA places such little value on "vacation" and family time. Most other countries require several weeks of vacation per year and wouldn't you know, they seem to have less social issues than us.

Breaks.. yes.. Religious holidays, I think should be respected and if students have specific holy days in which they cannot attend school, then it should be permitted but not mandated for students who do not share the same religious practices.

Easter.. I prefer eggs and bunnies to crucifixes.. jus sayin..

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I have to say I am really surprised by the amount of responses who voted to add more religious holidays.

In public institutions, shouldn't the Christian names of existing holidays be phased out -- as opposed to adding more religious observance days to the school calendars?

I voted add more...not because I think we should be observing religious holidays in public institutions, but purely as a pragmatic thing.

I simply can't see our culture eliminating those days off from school over Christmas and Easter. We can call it whatever we like, but I don't see it changing anytime soon. We still take summer off in the public schools...even though virtually none of our children are needed for agricultural help. Kids do need breaks...and those times are traditional.

Since I think it's unlikely that we'll have kids going to school over Christmas and Easter any time soon, then I think it's better that we add in the major holidays of other faiths and recognize them all instead of marginalizing.

I guess what I'm striving for is equality. If they aren't going to all be out, then let's have them all be in. For many, those days off aren't going to be religious holidays, but maybe we can use that as a learning experience as my son's school does...and hopefully that will eventually increase our understanding of each other.

And, just a disclaimer, we don't adhere to any particular faith in our family...so they're all just days off to us. I am not concerned with my son being out of school for any religious holiday of any faith.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

I grew up in the South Bay and it was the same for us...and this was also the 70's.

I do not remember having Monday off or maybe it was added to a week after? I will need to ask my mom. And it was still called Easter Break.

[blush]

Very interesting topic.

We have a long history in public schools of separation of church and state. We have a conflicting arrangement of freedom to practice religion. How do we honor both?

Atlast mentioned more religious education/awareness. As a teacher, I am very uncomfortable with this idea, outside of a cultural context. It can easily blur the line between creating well-informed students, and teachers taking the opportunity to promote one religion over another. It would require a background in religions that teachers simply don't have. The expectation that teachers delve into something as personal as religion is a bit much.

For me, it boils down to what does our society expect from public schools. Ideally, education, right? If our purpose is to education, we should create an atmosphere where race, class and religion are neutralized so the focus is on education. However, each of those components affects not only the student and how the student learns, but the teacher and how the teacher teaches. It becomes a question of honoring each child as an individual where they can learn in a safe environment. Then the focus becomes not on what we do, but how we do it. If we can create an accepting classroom for children where they feel valued for who they are, and if we promote this atmosphere school-wide, then we have made more in-roads for that child than any school holiday (religious or otherwise) will ever be able to do.

[imperfect_cupcake]

All religious holidays should be taken out. And replaced with "half-term" breaks. If someone is a specific religion they can talk to the school about taking their child out of class for a few days to attend their holy days.

[adorable]

I voted "I don't care" and I really don't care about holidays although I celebrate the ones where gifts or chocolate is involved.

My experience with public schools has been that they have certain times off a year - they don't refer to them currently by the Christian name, everything is a "holiday" but not defined. Kids who celebrate other religions are allowed to take off from school without a penalty.

Even if I wanted to pull my kids out of school for a random vacation for a week during the school year I can and they'll still pass.

One thing I think that I would like to see happen is a year round school year. I know as a home owner I pay school taxes, and that they would go up. I would rather pay more for my kids to go to school year round then I would to have to send them to camp for the summer. I was lucky that when my oldest was young enough for camp (and I was a poor single mother going to college & working as a waitress) that I found one sponsored by the little town that we lived in that cost $15 a week!!!!!! I was so lucky. I didn't have the money to send her to camp otherwise. That camp of course no longer exists.

This year, my youngest daughters camp cost me over $1200 for five weeks. (She does the fair thing with 4-H during the other weeks) so my expense was actually lower then what lots of other people have to shell out. I only had to pay for her, what on earth do people do that have more then one kid? Or that can't afford between $160 - $250 a week?? Normally that is paid up front. Even $300 is more then some people can afford to spend to replace a car, much less send their kids to camp. I'm lucky today to be able to afford it. I honestly have no idea what some other families do.

Yet, they have to go to work. The kids have to go somewhere. Preferably a safe somewhere and not home alone. There are daycare subsidies here for people who work that can't afford daycare expenses, but nothing like that for camp. The daycare's are generally full. Year round schooling wouldn't hurt kids at all and would help out parents, especially the working poor.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).



I should have clarified, but I meant officially in schools. Teachers and professors I've had never refered to it as the Christmas holidays back in high school or in university, but as "the holidays" or "winter holidays," both while living in Toronto as well as out on the East Coast. It could differ region to region, though, like you suggest. With students I notice it can go either way, Christmas holidays or winter holidays/vacation, though even then I see it used less and less.

About the American Thanksgiving thing...it could be I'm just totally ignorant about American Thanksgiving. From what I've read, what American friends have told me (those friends are mainly from Indiana and Minnesota if that tells anyone anything) and just general media I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

Yes, it is, however it is an affront to Native peoples. We don't celebrate, it is a sad ending to our way of life. Now don't get me wrong, we still eat, but we aren't celebrating with thanks to the white god. Those of us who retain our heritage, find other ways of giving thanks.