Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Stacy]

I believe I stated that it is how I personally break it down and what it means to ME. By being a member of this site it doesn't automatically mean you're willing to just accept whatever, I just choose to not make issues of the things I don't accept. I find far too often when I share my opinion about any damn thing other than fun or fluff, someone inevitably jumps my shit about it. You can claim whatever ID you choose on this site. I'm still curious how many claim those ID's in the real world. Just because I'm on this site, doesn't mean I am just blindly accepting of anything. I didn't even bother reading your whole rant, I know it would just piss me off. However, I wanted it to be clear that I stated right off the bat, that it was how I personally view it. I never claimed to be Harry Benjamin or the all knowing guru of all things trans.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Deviant

I believe I stated that it is how I personally break it down and what it means to ME. By being a member of this site it doesn't automatically mean you're willing to just accept whatever, I just choose to not make issues of the things I don't accept. I find far too often when I share my opinion about any damn thing other than fun or fluff, someone inevitably jumps my shit about it. You can claim whatever ID you choose on this site. I'm still curious how many claim those ID's in the real world. Just because I'm on this site, doesn't mean I am just blindly accepting of anything. I didn't even bother reading your whole rant, I know it would just piss me off. However, I wanted it to be clear that I stated right off the bat, that it was how I personally view it. I never claimed to be Harry Benjamin or the all knowing guru of all things trans.

Deviant - I think you make good points. There are a lot of terms, IDs, and definitions and different people define them differently. It is confusing. Over the years the names and labels have changed for me. Now that I am taking T I struggle with how to identify myself and what word or words to use that will communicate how I identify. I think that many people find it a struggle to ID who they are internally out in the world because the large majority of people don't know the differences or nuances, they might just see lesbian, gay, bi and know a little about trans.

Many know little about the differences between sex and gender, even. I'm not totally sure what you mean by claim those IDs in the real world because most people in the real world have little to no knowledge of these IDs. What does a male Id'ed butch check on an application form because there is no box with this ID available.

If their paperwork says Female then they have no choice but to check female otherwise HR is going to start asking questions. Personally. I don't correct people when they call me he or she. In any given day I can be called she 5 times and he five times by various people I come in contact with. Neither he or she really fits, neither does gay or lesbian. These are the terms people apply to me to try to fit me into their concepts of gender and sexuality.

I don't correct the wait staff who call me she because its a waste of energy for me. I dont care how they address me. For some, though this is an important issue and they will correct people they come in contact with. So even these types of things vary from person to person. We are butting up against language limitations, traditional ideas of gender and sex, lack of knowledge of most people about gender and sex, rigid systems of paperwork that require an either/or answer and all paperwork must align. I'm only on my third shot of T but all these issues have come up as I work on this "transition"

Rufus

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

Deviant - I think you make good points. There are a lot of terms, IDs, and definitions and different people define them differently. It is confusing. Over the years the names and labels have changed for me. Now that I am taking T I struggle with how to identify myself and what word or words to use that will communicate how I identify. I think that many people find it a struggle to ID who they are internally out in the world because the large majority of people don't know the differences or nuances, they might just see lesbian, gay, bi and know a little about trans.

Many know little about the differences between sex and gender, even. I'm not totally sure what you mean by claim those IDs in the real world because most people in the real world have little to no knowledge of these IDs. What does a male Id'ed butch check on an application form because there is no box with this ID available.

If their paperwork says Female then they have no choice but to check female otherwise HR is going to start asking questions. Personally. I don't correct people when they call me he or she. In any given day I can be called she 5 times and he five times by various people I come in contact with. Neither he or she really fits, neither does gay or lesbian. These are the terms people apply to me to try to fit me into their concepts of gender and sexuality.

I don't correct the wait staff who call me she because its a waste of energy for me. I dont care how they address me. For some, though this is an important issue and they will correct people they come in contact with. So even these types of things vary from person to person. We are butting up against language limitations, traditional ideas of gender and sex, lack of knowledge of most people about gender and sex, rigid systems of paperwork that require an either/or answer and all paperwork must align. I'm only on my third shot of T but all these issues have come up as I work on this "transition"

Rufus

Rufus, what you are explaining covers much of what many of my friends describe. They don't really have a label, I don't see them stretching for one, no one I know actually cares what those labels are. As far as I'm concerned is Nat, jim, Cee, Balla, Leng etc genders and sexes and their pronouns aren't really one that exists. They get to say where their transition stops and starts, since they are neither male or female. Some take T, some other have their chests reduced, some have both. Some do neither. Some stop and start.

I don't think any of them use the word butch that I'm aware of. Most of them just use genderqueer as an umbrella term and fuck the specifics, they aren't really needed - at least, no one I know has been arsed enough to try and tell me what theirs are if they have one and I really don't care about their ID, I'm more interested in how they are, what they been up to, if they are busy next thursday. This is probably why I get confused about the term male ID'd butch.

Usually when one goes to a genderqueer club, it's a rainbow of gender and sexes with no two being exactly alike.

that has nothing to do with paperwork and living in the realities of HR nightmares though where you have to pick male, female or transgender (at least public service has put this box on at the very least).

thanks for the help in figuring out why I get so confused by this board when in person I'm not even slightly confused.

[SelfMadeMan]

Note to Self: Only voice your opinion if it is the popular one. Otherwise, temper tantrums and mud slinging are sure to follow.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Note to Self: Only voice your opinion if it is the popular one. Otherwise, temper tantrums and mud slinging are sure to follow.

OFFS get over yourself. I am.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Corkey

OFFS get over yourself. I am.

I don't recall asking for your approval ... did we not cover the fact that you don't seek approval for who you are and what you do? You don't have to read me if it bothers you, but I'll decide what to get over for myself , m'kay? I don't make a habit of doing what I'm told.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I don't recall asking for your approval ... did we not cover the fact that you don't seek approval for who you are and what you do? You don't have to read me if it bothers you, but I'll decide what to get over for myself , m'kay? I don't make a habit of doing what I'm told.

You know until you voiced your opinion (read disapproval) folks were getting along nicely. Not that everyone agreed, they didn't. You are taking all of this a wee bit personal and I have to ask myself why. Is there something you need from this discussion, other than all of us bow to the "man". You don't get to be the great decider, Bush beat you to the title. Folks are going to agree or not based on facts, you haven't brought any to the table, other than a "standard" that isn't. People will be themselves, whether you like it or not. I see you are fairly new to "this" site, lots of folks have gone over the gender discussion on other threads, and sites, you are late to the table.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

You are stating your opinion like it is some law. It isn't. People chose to do all sorts of things, one of them is whether to take T or not. That is a personal choice, not something you get to decide for another. Doctors have there place, it isn't to decide for their patient what they can and can not do. If you think I'm slamming you, you have an opinion of yourself I do not. There is no better than, no less than, no ID is greater than another and you don't get to tell others how to live their lives. Simple.
Now pardon me I have things to do like take a shower and use my T.

The HBSOC isn't a law, it's a guideline. I don't believe Michael was stating his opinion as if it were law. I know that he just believes very much in those guidelines and their effectiveness. As is his right. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose about the HBSOC, however, calling my husband judgmental is making it personal. IMHO

Originally Posted by Corkey

Gatekeeping.

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

If you'd bothered to read my whole post you'd actually get the answer to your question about me claiming my id in the real world. No I don't say "hey guys, I'm a male id'd butch, ask me how!" I simply say that I'm male because male is what I am. I can't put a gun to their head and get them to call me what I call myself, and I shouldn't have to. They have just as much of a right to their opinion as I do. And I have a right to defend myself. Here people tend to "get it" (or so I thought) more, so I thought I might be able to say something about my history. My bad.

If you'd read the post, you'd also have read that I don't care if you accept me or not. I don't believe in blind acceptance. I'm not asking you to blindly accept me. Think whatever you want, but like I said in my last post, I also have the right to respond. You gave your reasons why you don't see me as male. I responded to those claims.



I'm not even going to bother because you obviously didn't even bother to read my post. But for the record, this is why I feel the need more and more to separate myself from the LGBT community. Because you're always what other people want you to be. Many lesbians tell you you need to be a lesbian, because you supposedly only think you're male because society pressures you to be, or because you think masculine = male (I'm not that dense, thank you) or because people are pressuring you to transition (quite the opposite). Others tell you you aren't male because you weren't born with the right genitals. Others tell you you don't belong in this community because you're very existence isn't compatible with feminism and the LGBT community. Society tells you you're not even human. Not sane. Not normal. Not this. Not that. I'm tired of being told I don't exist. I'm tired of being shot at from all fronts.

I'm not telling you who you are or who you should be. Sure go ahead and give your opinion on the subject, but don't expect me not to give my opinion back. The problem I have with your perspective is that your perspective, were it reality, would deny people the right to be themselves all because they choose not use the same terminology you do. And yeah, while you have the right to make that claim, I have the right to speak against it.

As for the differences between FtMs and male id'd butches, the point myself and others were making before is that, depending on the individual, there may very well not be a clear cut difference. It depends on the individual because not everyone sees their identity the same way.

I still am unclear as to whether you are transitioning or not, which doesn't really matter. I do however associate the term BUTCH with woman/female. (pertaining to this topic). I know that many have different views/opinions and that is their right. I am respectful when I am around butches who want to be called male pronouns. I would not knowingly disrespect someone by intentionally calling them by a pronoun different than what they've chosen for themselves. Whether or not they use them in the real world or not.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.

[Corkey]

[QUOTE=Deviant;174786]The HBSOC isn't a law, it's a guideline. I don't believe Michael was stating his opinion as if it were law. I know that he just believes very much in those guidelines and their effectiveness. As is his right. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose about the HBSOC, however, calling my husband judgmental is making it personal. IMHO

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO



I still am unclear as to whether you are transitioning or not, which doesn't really matter. I do however associate the term BUTCH with woman/female. (pertaining to this topic). I know that many have different views/opinions and that is their right. I am respectful when I am around butches who want to be called male pronouns. I would not knowingly disrespect someone by intentionally calling them by a pronoun different than what they've chosen for themselves. Whether or not they use them in the real world or not.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.



It isn't your place to decide for others, you don't have the authority. Opinion only goes so far. You can ask but Ender doesn't owe you an answer, your opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things in his world, or for that matter mine.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Deviant

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.
[/B]

Deviant,

I'm not sure if you saw posts 19 and 20, but there are two members who explained the retention of their ID as butch after transition.

Self Made Man,

You stated that if someone doesn't intend to transition, they shouldn't be on hormones and, yet, the HBSOC allows for people who have no intention of having surgery or real life experience to be on hormones.

I was just wondering your thoughts on that considering you are pro-HBSOC and, yet, their guidelines seem to contradict your position.

Personally, I think Harry Benjamin has its place but I don't think that it should be stringently applied to all without exceptions.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I'm not sure if you saw posts 19 and 20, but there are two members who explained the retention of their ID as butch after transition.

is there? that's fucking embarrassing whoops - I was asking as well. Thanks for that, I'll just slink off and read those... I should have been a bit more diligent in reading if I'm going to post...
I feel like I just trod in someone's cake and asked them where the cake was...

[SelfMadeMan]

Not pissed at all - never was

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Deviant,

I'm not sure if you saw posts 19 and 20, but there are two members who explained the retention of their ID as butch after transition.

Self Made Man,

You stated that if someone doesn't intend to transition, they shouldn't be on hormones and, yet, the HBSOC allows for people who have no intention of having surgery or real life experience to be on hormones.

I was just wondering your thoughts on that considering you are pro-HBSOC and, yet, their guidelines seem to contradict your position.

Personally, I think Harry Benjamin has its place but I don't think that it should be stringently applied to all without exceptions.

Right. The only expectation for hormones and chest reconstruction is one letter from a therapist saying you have a gender identity disorder and meet "readiness criteria"

For genital surgery you must live full time for one year as the opposite sex and you need two letters for sugery.

The standards of care actually specifically state:

Can Hormones Be Given To Those Who Do Not Want Surgery or a Real-life Experience? :
Yes, but after diagnosis and psychotherapy with a qualified mental health professional following
minimal standards listed above. Hormone therapy can provide significant comfort to gender
patients who do not wish to cross live or undergo surgery, or who are unable to do so. In some
patients, hormone therapy alone may provide sufficient symptomatic relief to obviate the need
for cross living or surgery.