Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Corkey

OFFS get over yourself. I am.

I don't recall asking for your approval ... did we not cover the fact that you don't seek approval for who you are and what you do? You don't have to read me if it bothers you, but I'll decide what to get over for myself , m'kay? I don't make a habit of doing what I'm told.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I don't recall asking for your approval ... did we not cover the fact that you don't seek approval for who you are and what you do? You don't have to read me if it bothers you, but I'll decide what to get over for myself , m'kay? I don't make a habit of doing what I'm told.

You know until you voiced your opinion (read disapproval) folks were getting along nicely. Not that everyone agreed, they didn't. You are taking all of this a wee bit personal and I have to ask myself why. Is there something you need from this discussion, other than all of us bow to the "man". You don't get to be the great decider, Bush beat you to the title. Folks are going to agree or not based on facts, you haven't brought any to the table, other than a "standard" that isn't. People will be themselves, whether you like it or not. I see you are fairly new to "this" site, lots of folks have gone over the gender discussion on other threads, and sites, you are late to the table.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

You know until you voiced your opinion (read disapproval) folks were getting along nicely. Not that everyone agreed, they didn't. You are taking all of this a wee bit personal and I have to ask myself why. Is there something you need from this discussion, other than all of us bow to the "man". You don't get to be the great decider, Bush beat you to the title. Folks are going to agree or not based on facts, you haven't brought any to the table, other than a "standard" that isn't. People will be themselves, whether you like it or not. I see you are fairly new to "this" site, lots of folks have gone over the gender discussion on other threads, and sites, you are late to the table.

I believe Michael joined before you. He is certainly not new to this site, or this community, or this subject. Michael was giving his opinion like everyone else when he stated that he believes the HBSOC should be upheld. You are the one that made it personal by calling him judgmental. As far as the quotations around man, nice touch. My husband does not think he's better than anyone just because he has transitioned and is legally male. He is more than happy to answer questions and help others in the process. He didn't say he should decide who takes T and transitions and who doesn't. He just knows how that the process worked well with him and many of his friends and that it does have value. As is his right. So you don't believe in the HBSOC, we get that. Why make it personal and call him judgmental and bring Bush into it. Haven't we all had enough of him?

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

It isn't your place to decide for others, you don't have the authority. Opinion only goes so far. You can ask but Ender doesn't owe you an answer, your opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things in his world, or for that matter mine.

I did not ask Ender to explain himself to me. I said whether or not I know doesn't really matter. I am not saying I'm an authority on this subject either. I believe I already said I'm not claiming to be Harry Benjamin himself. Obviously my opinion doesn't matter to you, but it may matter to someone who is of the same thoughts/opinions. While my opinion may be different than yours, I still have the right to voice it. Tell me once where I said I thought I had a right to decide for others??

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.

I was just saying in mind, in this community, when I hear/see the term butch, that I, personally, associated that term with a woman. It also has very good feelings for me when I hear it, because I happen to find butch women pretty damn sexy. Just sayin'

I know that this isn't the case for everyone though. I also know that people can use butch to describe whatever they want it to encompass. Urban dictionary is full of new definitions of old words.

[Corkey]

I really have a hard time when femmes and lesbian ID'd butches come into a Male ID'd/FTM thread and spout off too, but here you are. Now I would have been run off if I came into a femme or lesbian ID'd butch thread and said the following..."I find male ID'd Butches sexy as hell and they are men in my opinion." Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[Stacy]

Deleted post as I did it before moderation. Sorry

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Deviant

The HBSOC isn't a law, it's a guideline. I don't believe Michael was stating his opinion as if it were law. I know that he just believes very much in those guidelines and their effectiveness. As is his right. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose about the HBSOC, however, calling my husband judgmental is making it personal. IMHO

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

Why, exactly should that gate be tended? What is it's supposed "effectiveness."

I still am unclear as to whether you are transitioning or not, which doesn't really matter. I do however associate the term BUTCH with woman/female. (pertaining to this topic). I know that many have different views/opinions and that is their right. I am respectful when I am around butches who want to be called male pronouns. I would not knowingly disrespect someone by intentionally calling them by a pronoun different than what they've chosen for themselves. Whether or not they use them in the real world or not.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.

Please show me where exactly I wrote that "labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing." It's far more complicated than that. I answered the precise questions you're asking now in the post you chose not to read. I wrote some four paragraphs on why I continue to hold on to the term "stone butch" and why I don't see that term as equatable with "woman" or "female" for myself. On top of that I also expained why I have an aversion towards the words "transition," "FtM" and "transsexual." I'm not going to sit here and type out another huge post directed at you, that you problably won't even read.

But in case you're still interested: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...1&postcount=43

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Note to Self: Only voice your opinion if it is the popular one. Otherwise, temper tantrums and mud slinging are sure to follow.

I can't help but laugh for personal reasons when you make the comment of "only voice your opinion if it is the popular one" since I'm generally the master of unpopular opinions it seems. It's all in how you stage your argument, and if you're argument is one that blatantly disrespects others, don't expect respect back. Can't also help but be amused at your claim about "temper tantrums" and "mudslinging".

When I stated that my problem with your perspective was that it would require that if it were followed in the real world people would not have the freedom to make decisions about their own bodies or to generally be themselves, that was not mudslinging...that was following a logical train of thought. Please explain how I was supposed to deduce otherwise when you claim that only people who, by your own definition, plan to "transition" should be given testosterone.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I wrote some four paragraphs on why I continue to hold on to the term "stone butch" and why I don't see that term as equatable with "woman" or "female" for myself. On top of that I also expained why I have an aversion towards the words "transition," "FtM" and "transsexual."

actually you did, Ender. Apologies. I hadn't taken your answer into consideration for some unknown reason in my head, you get your very own category. lol. Aren't you special!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.

good question. No one I know in London who uses soley he, uses T and considers themselves soley male (sex, not gender) considers themselves butch.

It only seems to be the people I know who use T and consider themselves a mix of male and female (sex) and entirely their own category (gender) still use that word as messy inaccurate short hand but they aren't married to the ID. Many use Boi.

I'm guessing that's different here....

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.

Sorry, for those who do. I'm not expecting you to educate me. it's just pure naive ignorance on my part. Willing and happy to be corrected.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

good question. No one I know in London who uses soley he, uses T and considers themselves soley male (sex, not gender) considers themselves butch.

It only seems to be the people I know who use T and consider themselves a mix of male and female (sex) and entirely their own category (gender) still use that word as short hand.

I'm guessing that's different here....

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.

Sorry, for those who do. I'm not expecting you to educate me. it's just pure naive ignorance on my part. Willing and happy to be corrected.

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

[Corkey]

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

In answer to Deviant.....your words.

[Thinker]

Moderating

Hold up, please...

Some of the exchanges here are getting entirely too personal, hurtful, and disrespectful.

At this time, I suggest taking a 24-hour posting break if you know you are typing in an angry state. And we all know when we are doing that...

One of the expectations here is that we remain considerate and respectful of all members. That does not mean we all see eye-to-eye or that we even come close to agreeing, but it does mean that we disagree as respectfully as possible. And sometimes it means just agreeing to disagree.

Again, if you feel pretty pissed right now, please take a break from the website.

Thinker (moderating)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

Hey, Dapper-

I think this is really important. However, I am not either, but have had conversations with folks that are very clear about these distinctions for themselves. I can't speak to this, really, but, I do have a personal concern about not wanting mis-information to be floating around about these distinctions. This could be (without even meaning it to be) dismissive to our transsexed members. This is just a complex set of variables and does have bio-physiological and medical parameters to understand.

Anyway, glad to see this distinction clarified. Maybe someone with knowledge about this will offer information so that the distinction does not get lost in assumptions. This can get very sensitive.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

yes and more popular use of that term. And in that, seperating transgender from transsexed. which my brain really thanks you for. that's the one I "come of age" with.

Corkey's use still slightly confuses me as I'm not quite certain of the underlaying premise of his terms, but I don't really need to completely understand. it's sort of close enough and it's not really all that important - Corkey is still completely Corkey, regardless of if I can follow it with my own upbringing of terms or not.

my mind is probably geared to non-specifics better. maybe I'm just a generalist, blurry person. I get along better with really gappingly wide terms.
It's why, ever though I'm fairly gender fluid I can't be arsed with defining it (too muuuuch wooork. lazy.) and just go with generalist "femme" with no qualifiers. I also don't care if I'm called she or sie.

I do actually really appreciate the effort people are taking to help me understand though!! jesus. that's actually pretty damn nice. So thank you, Dapper x

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

Haha, and so we come full circle Every label is different for everyone. There is no widespread or clear cut definition that applies to how everyone applies their own identity.

And so to the question the OP initially asked, we're back to the beginning. What is the difference between a male id'd butch and an FtM? Well, what's the difference between one FtM and another. Not every FtM sees themselves the same way or views the label FtM the same way. We've even had some guys who have "transitioned" here in this very thread who claim they don't see themselves as male despite the fact that they've "transitioned" (sorry for the quotations, I just dislike that word) physically and even changed their gender legally. Same way that not every male id'd butch understands that identity the same way. Some of us identify as 100% male, others feel differently. Or male but not in the same way someone born biologically male might consider themselves male (which is a whole other kettle of fish, since we shouldn't assume that every single biologically born male understands themselves in the same way as though they're all carbon copies of one another.). Some of us plan on transitioning/are transitioning/have transitioned while others have no such plan to do so while still considering themselves male. Some of us like the colour blue, others like yellow. Some of us hate brussel sprouts, others devour them like they're god's gift to humanity.

My point: sure we all have commonalities and dissimilarities. I may have more in common with someone who identifies as FtM than with someone who identifies as male id'd butch (talking about experiences, identity etc. here), or I may have more in common with another male id'd butch than with another FtM. There might not actually be a huge difference or any difference at all beyond terminology depending on the individual. Or the terminology and being male might be all we have in common. Or not. Often in order for discussions to occur there needs to be agreement on a common vocabulary...the problem is that having a common vocabulary with identical meanings doesn't really work when talking about how people understand themselves or identify themselves to others.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Corkey

You know until you voiced your opinion (read disapproval) folks were getting along nicely. Not that everyone agreed, they didn't. You are taking all of this a wee bit personal and I have to ask myself why. Is there something you need from this discussion, other than all of us bow to the "man". You don't get to be the great decider, Bush beat you to the title. Folks are going to agree or not based on facts, you haven't brought any to the table, other than a "standard" that isn't. People will be themselves, whether you like it or not. I see you are fairly new to "this" site, lots of folks have gone over the gender discussion on other threads, and sites, you are late to the table.

Corkey - self made man joined this site a month before you did. When someone joins has no bearing. Many of us have been over this same topic many times but, speaking for myself, it helps me learn. I still need to go over it many more times and have no answers or easy answers to any of the gender issues or questions that come up. My ID has changed over the years too just like it has for many people on this site. Its a long journey for all of us and the questions never end and the answers and points of view are all different depending not just on who you talk to but when you talk to them. I still have questions and confusions about all these topics and I've been at this table for many years.

Rufus