Negotiating Silence

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them.

I wish that too. On the other hand sometimes I wish some would change how they see others..

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wish that too. On the other hand sometimes I wish some would change how they see others..

I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

Absolutely they are intertwined! I keep seeing discussion head down an either/or road. Either you see it my way Or you are just wrong. Either/Or never ends well.

You cannot be the teacher without being the student.

[Linus]

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me **

[violaine]

[QUOTE=NJFemmie;18678]I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

i have been looking through so many threads trying to find one on 'history', and instead, i keep stumbling across good topics.

i've noticed the same thing you are describing, and have wondered in situations why disagreeing is considered 'wrong' - or why is it 'wrong' to disagree? what if the word 'wrong' was switched to something else ?

[AtLast]

[quote=violaine;162771]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

i have been looking through so many threads trying to find one on 'history', and instead, i keep stumbling across good topics.

i've noticed the same thing you are describing, and have wondered in situations why disagreeing is considered 'wrong' - or why is it 'wrong' to disagree? what if the word 'wrong' was switched to something else ?

It is odd to view disagreement as wrong. Thinking about putting negotiation into the mix and disagreement becomes a positive interaction. Sometimes I think people become silent because of fearing confrontation. Then, again, I have certainly known people in my life that simply want to be right and have no intention of communicating. Sometimes that is what it feels like online to me. A lot of grandstanding and not much in trying to understand what someone is expressing.

[imperfect_cupcake]

hmn. online is far different than in person. in person silencing happens - with me - if I perceive a threat. I will suddenly become very polite, cut the conversation short as possible and leave.

If I don't find it threatening, I'll mouth off.

On line... tbh, if I don't believe anyone will listen to what I have to say, my reasons, my logic, my experiences, and I think the people involved so far will only mock and belittle and dispute rather than honestly consider - rather than plan an articulate defence/forward demand/whatever - then I really can't be arsed. why should I waste my valuable time trying to engage, as far as I'm concerned, a bowl of screws and bolts? I might as well have an argument with my bathroom wall.

so when I stop talking is when I think others aren't listening. or aren't there to listen, discuss but merely to be right. I really honestly can't be arsed with that kind of stuff any more.

[Linus]

Very interesting thread. There is a lot I want to add but trying to organize it into the best words possible is a challenge right now.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

I think the thing that silences me is when I've been told that I'm unwelcomed (not because of a safe space but because I'm a trans guy, a Canadian, a <insert characteristic here>). The most silencing statement was one that said that because I was verbose and took a lot to state something, that a person wouldn't respond because I couldn't keep things more concise and into a sentence or two. I've also been "silenced" because of how I write. It's been suggested that I "talk down" to others. I try to avoid doing this or coming off like this but this silences me to change my language from what I'm used to talking like (I write much like I talk).

Now, does that mean I'm not willing to take constructive criticism and that if I've stated something incorrectly or offensively, I wouldn't apologize or try to learn a new behaviour (vis-a-vis writing style)? No. I'm always willing to learn and do believe that we never stop learning. I do not believe that my opinion is above others; neither do I believe it doesn't have value.

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

This is a challenge as we are asking for behaviours to be adjusted and minds to open (we all have prejudices, privileges, lack of privilege, etc.). I believe that it is an individual desire to adjust and see where we may be hindering or how we can help avoid silencing or silencing behaviour. Humans, IMO (In My Opinion), are rather stubborn about learning new behaviour, especially stuff related to cooperation. We have been ingrained with competition for so long that it is part of our language and how we talk.

Can we relearn things we did in Kindergarten and how to share better between each other as adults?




**note: I will not be held responsible for typos and such. Caffeine wasn't fully available at time of writing. Any misunderstandings, misquotes, confusion or similar experiences are due entirely to a slow coffee pot. **

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Linus

Very interesting thread. There is a lot I want to add but trying to organize it into the best words possible is a challenge right now.



I think the thing that silences me is when I've been told that I'm unwelcomed (not because of a safe space but because I'm a trans guy, a Canadian, a <insert characteristic here>). The most silencing statement was one that said that because I was verbose and took a lot to state something, that a person wouldn't respond because I couldn't keep things more concise and into a sentence or two. I've also been "silenced" because of how I write. It's been suggested that I "talk down" to others. I try to avoid doing this or coming off like this but this silences me to change my language from what I'm used to talking like (I write much like I talk).

Now, does that mean I'm not willing to take constructive criticism and that if I've stated something incorrectly or offensively, I wouldn't apologize or try to learn a new behaviour (vis-a-vis writing style)? No. I'm always willing to learn and do believe that we never stop learning. I do not believe that my opinion is above others; neither do I believe it doesn't have value.
[FONT=Century Gothic]


This is a challenge as we are asking for behaviours to be adjusted and minds to open (we all have prejudices, privileges, lack of privilege, etc.). I believe that it is an individual desire to adjust and see where we may be hindering or how we can help avoid silencing or silencing behaviour. Humans, IMO (In My Opinion), are rather stubborn about learning new behaviour, especially stuff related to cooperation. We have been ingrained with competition for so long that it is part of our language and how we talk.

Can we relearn things we did in Kindergarten and how to share better between each other as adults?




**note: I will not be held responsible for typos and such. Caffeine wasn't fully available at time of writing. Any misunderstandings, misquotes, confusion or similar experiences are due entirely to a slow coffee pot. **

Great points Linus! You bring up something that just made a light bulb go off for me. People criticizing writing styles and spelling/grammar usage.

I have seen this many times and it just seems mean spirited to tell another poster they are being skipped over because they write too much or can't spell. It is painful to read those kinds of exchanges.

Basic human kindness tells me that even *if* one is skipping over posts or doesn't find them easy to read it doesn't need to be said in public. For goodness sake! I see the ways we shame each other and I can't stand it. Shame = Silence = Alienation.

[christie]

Great thread idea!

For me, I chose to be silent quite a bit of the time because I see a lot of "interpretation" of others' words. A great deal of reading between the lines and putting a personal spin on them; rather than taking the words at face value.

I'm a say what I mean and mean what I say kinda woman. My words have often been interpreted incorrectly, and in as such, their meaning/intent completely disregarded.

I also think that when we try to be more concrete in our words, citing personal experiences/situations, those words are often used as "ammunition" against us. I have seen people post real issues... making themselves very vulnerable... and instead of the responders being supportive and uplifting, the OP has been raked over the proverbial coals and judged.

What can we do to change the issues I see? Its pretty simple to me... stop interpreting and be more open minded that not all our journeys are alike. Learn to agree to disagree, respectfully. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Stop reading more into things than what is stated. Try to put ourselves in another's shoes and that whole "Do unto others."

Just my nickel's worth... That and $6 will get you a latte.

Christie

[Words]

The only thing that always, or nearly always, silences me - because I'm simply unable to understand - is language that for me, is too 'academic'. Why does it silence me? Because I'm afraid of looking stupid by asking, ''What, exactly, do you mean?'' There, I owned it.

I do believe that in some cases - note, I said some - some folks will use their superior language skills/intelligence/education/whatever as a way of silencing others. I have seen it happen - not here, but on other sites, one in particular - and it disgusts me because it implies, to me, a total lack of respect for others and their abilities, or lack thereof. And please don't tell me I'm imagining this, because I'm not. It happens, it's disgusting, and to me, it's no different to laughing behind the back of someone with a physical or mental disability.

I also believe, however, that some folks simply do not realize that the average person on the street is not capable of understanding the type of language they use. So although what they write might be silencing, they are not, in my opinion, and in contrast to those mentioned in the paragraph above - guilty of deliberately silencing others.

Apart from that? There's not much that will silence me or cause me to be silent. As many, I'm sure, will confirm

Words

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Words

The only thing that always, or nearly always, silences me - because I'm simply unable to understand - is language that for me, is too 'academic'. Why does it silence me? Because I'm afraid of looking stupid by asking, ''What, exactly, do you mean?'' There, I owned it.

I do believe that in some cases - note, I said some - some folks will use their superior language skills/intelligence/education/whatever as a way of silencing others. I have seen it happen - not here, but on other sites, one in particular - and it disgusts me because it implies, to me, a total lack of respect for others and their abilities, or lack thereof. And please don't tell me I'm imagining this, because I'm not. It happens, it's disgusting, and to me, it's no different to laughing behind the back of someone with a physical or mental disability.

I also believe, however, that some folks simply do not realize that the average person on the street is not capable of understanding the type of language they use. So although what they write might be silencing, they are not, in my opinion, and in contrast to those mentioned in the paragraph above - guilty of deliberately silencing others.

Apart from that? There's not much that will silence me or cause me to be silent. As many, I'm sure, will confirm

Words

Thank you for this post!!!! I have never felt stupid anywhere in my life until I started posting online. I do believe my IQ has dropped 20 points. Academic language is hard for me to touch and hold and twist around. Tell me a story about feelings and I will understand instantly.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Thank you for this post!!!! I have never felt stupid anywhere in my life until I started posting online. I do believe my IQ has dropped 20 points. Academic language is hard for me to touch and hold and twist around. Tell me a story about feelings and I will understand instantly.

This would actually be a GREAT thread. A discussion on how academic language changes a conversation or the overtones of elitism (or lack thereof).

Cyclopea made a BEAUTIFUL post about academic language in another thread that I would like to see be part of that conversation.

My opinion: Academic language can feel silencing. Yes.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This would actually be a GREAT thread. A discussion on how academic language changes a conversation or the overtones of elitism (or lack thereof).

Cyclopea made a BEAUTIFUL post about academic language in another thread that I would like to see be part of that conversation.

My opinion: Academic language can feel silencing. Yes.

Thank You Medusa for liking my post.

As a footnote (and shameless plug): I started a whole thread spoofing overwrought highfalutin "academese"-
"Chair Dance: Expressionism, Post Modernism, and Popular Culture".

So if anyone wants to spew a bunch of non-sensical smart-sounding bullshit about a stupid topic, come on over!
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=391
And bring your multi-quote button! Cite your sources! Consult your thesaurus!

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Thank You Medusa for liking my post.

As a footnote (and shameless plug): I started a whole thread spoofing overwrought highfalutin "academese"-
"Chair Dance: Expressionism, Post Modernism, and Popular Culture".

So if anyone wants to spew a bunch of non-sensical smart-sounding bullshit about a stupid topic, come on over!
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=391
And bring your multi-quote button! Cite your sources! Consult your thesaurus!

Ha, this is my favorite post ever.