Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

[Toughy]

"I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome."

I entirely and completely agree with the above statement.

Really? How dismissing cause how does anyone know what the other posters identity was before they transitioned, does their history get erased and dismissed just because they no longer refer or feel this way or comfortable in that mattress tag?

Me making my own decisions as a lesbian about where I will feel welcome has SHIT to do with someone else's history. I as a lesbian may feel welcomed in a place another lesbian would not. That has no reflection on another lesbians comfort level.

As to the non-lesbian comment ..........snark/sarcasm ......... something we all do on occasion...it made me snort in that kind of ironic way as ALL snark/sarcasm usually does. The snark is not some special mean I hate you shut the fuck up kind of statement, although apparently it can be taken that way.

I gotta tell ya here. I am/was feeling a bit of lesbophobia starting to happen here in this thread. Not something you can specifically quote, but none-the-less it was hovering in the background. As a lesbian I should be able to say that without having to produce a quote. It's falls in the same category as 'this feels racist, sexist, homophobic', white privilege'.

We highly object when someone who has left all of us with a feeling of racism, however there is no direct quote to produce to prove that. We will call out that racism in a heartbeat, to the bewilderment of the poster. Likely we will never be able to specifically show that poster where the racism exists in what was said.

And sometimes we are wrong (on both sides). And sometimes we are right (on both sides).

I hope anyone who decides to put themselves on a boat with 2000-3000 has a great time. The likelihood of me doing that is about zero. I am not getting trapped on a boat for a week with a bunch of strangers or friends. Besides after Jack's little post about poo and pee and other stuff spewed out of the boats in the open sea...........shaking my head...........

[BullDog]

I don't agree with everything regarding Olivia Cruises and how some people have been treated. However I also think some people have expanded it being a lesbian cruise ship (which wouldn't include males) to saying omg if you are butch or masculine appearing they are going to be horrible to you on their boat if they even let you on and they only want femme looking woman there- which I think is quite the exaggeration. And yes I do wonder what is behind these exaggerated statements.

I'm a lesbian, go to lesbian events all the time and have so for years and years, but people who are not lesbians are telling me what would happen (based purely on conjecture) and I am the one being dismissive?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't agree with everything regarding Olivia Cruises and how some people have been treated. However I also think some people have expanded it being a lesbian cruise ship (which wouldn't include males) to saying omg if you are butch or masculine appearing they are going to be horrible to you on their boat if they even let you on and they only want femme looking woman there- which I think is quite the exaggeration. And yes I do wonder what is behind these exaggerated statements.

I'm a lesbian, go to lesbian events all the time and have so for years and years, but people who are not lesbians are telling me what would happen (based purely on conjecture) and I am the one being dismissive?

I'm a lesbian and I would have some worry that you would end up treated in the same manner that Blaze was (who was a lesbian at the time this happened). I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

I didn't once get the impression that Olivia Cruises only wants Femmes on their cruises. I did however, get the feeling that they might balk at the ratio of passengers who were butch or masculine looking being the majority.

I think it would be fair to call it conjecture had we not had a member here who lived this experience. Blaze sharing the story took it out of the realm of conjecture into the realm of fact.

Do I think this is going to happen all of the time? No.

Yet the possibility of you - my fellow community member being left standing on the docks gives me great pause.

I would be horrified.

The overuse of the binary makes me cringe. The binary is being challenged in ways that it wasn't when Olivia began doing cruises. I just wish they'd catch up rather than stay mired in the either/or.

Where is the line of delineation? If an mtf has had srs, they ARE a woman and a lesbian if they say so. (I know you disagreed with the turning away of an MTF) so hopefully you'll see my point. Where is the line of delineation when somebody feels that they were born into the wrong body? Does it start the separation at that point? Or when someone takes T? OR when somebody has top surgery? Bottom surgery for FTM's is lacking still in a successful outcome, as opposed to the MTF srs surgeries which fully change ones sex/gender.

So where does the cut-off begin?

I'm not at all against Olivia having woman only space. I am however uncomfortable with the idea that Olivia decides who is woman enough to be in that space.

The fact that I am a Lesbian and married to a trans person puts me in a strange position. It feels like my Lesbian is stripped away often because of who I love. Which is ridiculous. My partners ID has nothing to do with mine, yet as a Lesbian I cannot really participate in a cruise with my peers AND bring along the one I love. That feels shitty.

I am all for Olivia and would never ever judge anyone who went on a vacation with them. Ever. I know they have a right to their policies, however, I find them to be not quite a solid interpretation of said policies.

Who am I to judge? Nobody I guess, just another faceless person.

So in ending, I'd really like to say to you that I feel that the people who are worried you might maybe or maybe not get left at the docks are simply members of your community who stand in solidarity with you (regardless of id) and would just not want you to be treated so horribly. I don't think its a bad thing that people care, yanno? I care. I of course would send all my energy to you having a fabulous outcome, nobody wishes bad treatment on anyone. I would however, stand by your side and fight the good fight with you should you be treated in the manner that Blaze was.

[BullDog]

Thank you for your thoughts and genuine concern SuperFemme. I also do care. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to spend so much time on this.

Thank you again.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thank you for your thoughts and genuine concern SuperFemme. I also do care. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to spend so much time on this.

Thank you again.

i so know you care, and that matters.

[Admin]

Alright folks -

This thread is completely out of control with the sideswipe comments, the snarky shittyness, and the myopic personal shit.

Toughy - Your comment about "factory direct men" is at the very least insensitive and at worst, Transphobic in this context. Please consider how that comment feels given the temperature of the thread.

Jess - Your comment about "Oliver" cruises is also insensitive and at worst, Transphobic.

Snow - Several of your comments have felt highly personal and rude. Please consider how your own interaction contributes to a negative space in this thread.

All - I am DONE with the snark, the shittyness, and the side-swiping. This thread is NOT in a Red Zone and you all have already been warned.
The next person who takes a swipe in this thread will receive an automatic 1-week time-out with no questions asked.


The personal swipes and shitty innuendos WILL stop or the time-outs will start being passed out like candy. The Moderators have been extremely patient with the behavior in this thread, hoping that it would self-correct, and yet folks have just rolled right on by.

ALL of us need to do our part to keep this thread and website a positive space.

Thanks,
Admin

[Admin]

MountainStar,

We sent you a private message regarding this thread but haven't heard back. I wanted to personally extend an apology to you for the way this thread was derailed. We dropped the ball on not getting it back on track for you and hope that you will accept our regrets about not doing a better job with that.

We appreciate the members who made attempts to re-rail and will ask that folks who want to continue the discussion about the policies of Olivia Cruises do so in another thread.

Thanks,
Admin/Medusa

[waxnrope]

Perhaps it is my piscean nature, a dreamer of that considered utopian space. Yet, without the capacity to see a better world, for all of us, without the vision, we are doomed to sameness. Nothing changes. And, I believe that we each have a responsibility to make or contribute in some way, a better, more just world.

I think of the business owners in the old South who refused service to black people. I heard the same arguments, even after the laws passed to end it. People have a right to have whatever folks they chose in their restaurant, they said. But if we think about this critically, it is NOT about the business. The most compounded effect is upon the person/s refused. It is the suddenly found shame, the loss of dignity, the shearing of a person's or groups self worth. This is not simply a disembodied "thing", a checkbook, or barstool that we are speaking about. We are talking about real people who have feelings and who are part of our community. The Othered community. The community of the marginalized."They" are us. And however we identify, however we situated ourselves in society, IMHO, I believe that we have a responsibility, an ethical one, to care for one another in the manner of SOLIDARIDAD, and from my travels, from my witness, from my convos with my Spanish speaking brothers and sisters, this is more than lip service. It is greater than a word. It means not to simple stand with someone, but to engage from the places of the heart and the spirit.

Like I said, I'm a Pisces and can be accused of engaging in excess fantasy. Then again, there is always hope in a dream. Always a possibility. What do I know?

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

Perhaps it is my piscean nature, a dreamer of that considered utopian space. Yet, without the capacity to see a better world, for all of us, without the vision, we are doomed to sameness. Nothing changes. And, I believe that we each have a responsibility to make or contribute in some way, a better, more just world.

I think of the business owners in the old South who refused service to black people. I heard the same arguments, even after the laws passed to end it. People have a right to have whatever folks they chose in their restaurant. But if we think about this critically, it is NOT about the business. The most compounded effect is upon the person/s refused. It is the suddenly found shame, the loss of dignity, the shearing of a person's or groups self worth. This is not simply a disembodied "thing", a chec kbook, or barstool that were speaking about. We are talking about real people who have foe old. elings and who are part of our community. The Othered community. The community of the marginalized."They" are us. And however we identify, however we situated ourselves in society, IMHO, I believe that we have a responsibility, an ethical one, to care for one another in the manner of SOLIDARIDAD, and from my travels, from my witness, from my convos with my Spanish speaking brothers and sisters, this is more than lip service. It is greater than a word. It means not to simple stand with someone, but to engage from the places of the heart and the spirit.

Like I said, I'm a Pisces and can be accused of engaging in excess fantasy. Then again, there is always hope in a dream. Always a possibility. What do I know?

I am a Leo and I share a similar fantasy.