Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

[MysticOceansFL]

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFL

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

Mystic,

I have read each and every comment on this thread, and from what I gather, I do not believe this has anything to do with a popularity contest.

It comes down to commonalities with people. Personally, I would not be friends with a Racist. They would not fit very well in my community and I would do what I could to educate, to inform them what this does to our global community when they speak this way. The same holds true in "our" community. If we support organizations that are "exclusive" and not "inclusive" then we are in fact perpetuating the same bigotry. If I allow people in my "world," who support such things, such as racist organizations or even organizations who are not supportive and inflammatory toward my community, then I am in fact perpetuating the same thing. I will however, offer my voice as a means to educate.

I do not know you personally, but most likely would not invite you into my inner circle. Not because you are not lovely, but because you support such organizations. I would not attend a party which served Coors beer - Even though Coors changed their policy, I still will not allow it in my house.

I also boycott the Michigan Womyns Music Festival - And I have no time for those that support an exclusive organization.

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFL

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

This is kinda ridiculous, to assume that people are posting their opinions so that all their friends follow like sheeple and not go on a vacation if that is what they wanted to do.

If (insert name) decided tomorrow that she was going on and Olivia Cruise, I would be like

I would more than likely talk to her about it, and our friendship would change since she is supporting a place I do not for it's policies. I don't know to what degree it would change but I am pretty positive that I would not just kick her to the curb without having some kind of dialogue.


Once again I find it odd that you are reading some subliminal message that is saying if pick a side or you are out the club.

Really odd.




PS

Can someone PLEASE point out the phobia, inclusion/exclusion ism's comments?????? PLEASE

[suebee]

I've been shaking my head since I saw this thread yesterday. Mountainstar has had her thread good and throughly hijacked. I believe it was intended to be about the cruise - maybe about other vacations. But between issues with Olivia and issues with the cruise ship industry in general I think we've managed to sour something that was light and fun for her - especially in light of what the cruise meant to her.

I guess it's too late to suggest that another thread might be a better place to sound off on the issues that are being brought up, but I just felt compelled to put in my two cents worth.

I hope you enjoy yourself MS.

Sue

[SuperFemme]

Right. The thread was hijacked by the horrible people who WERE discussing cruises.

Oh wait. What is being said is that it's only discussing if it shits glitter and sunshine.

Of course we want Mountain to have a good cruise, and it wasn't in the OP that it was shared what it meant to HER on a very PERSONAL level. Ironically, as a person with terminal cancer AND a spouse named Cal, I can totally say that if I were in her shoes I'd probably be doing exactly what she is doing.

Not liking Olivia Cruises or cruises in general that are not environmentally friendly does NOT mean that there are ill wishes towards the OP.

I swear.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Right. The thread was hijacked by the horrible people who WERE discussing cruises.

Oh wait. What is being said is that it's only discussing if it shits glitter and sunshine.

Of course we want Mountain to have a good cruise, and it wasn't in the OP that it was shared what it meant to HER on a very PERSONAL level. Ironically, as a person with terminal cancer AND a spouse named Cal, I can totally say that if I were in her shoes I'd probably be doing exactly what she is doing.

Not liking Olivia Cruises or cruises in general that are not environmentally friendly does NOT mean that there are ill wishes towards the OP.

I swear.

I agree with everything you're saying - except about shitting glitter. Never WAS able to do that.

Usually we ask that a thread stay on topic, and that another thread be started if a splinter issue comes up. But thanks for answering.

Sue

[BullDog]

I do understand that having a butch femme group event on a lesbian cruise is totally inappropriate because not all butch femme community members are lesbians.

For people going on vacations on an individual basis with their spouses, significant others or friends that are not lesbians they would choose a different type of vacation. I totally get that. Or you may be a lesbian who just doesn't want to be stuck on a ship with thousands of other lesbians. Or you don't like cruises for environmental or other reasons. I totally get that.

If lesbian transwomen are discriminated against I think that is wrong. They are lesbians and women too and of course should be included. I do support the need and desire for having women's only space. I do not support any organization that excludes transwomen from their definition of women's space.

I also think it's wrong for anyone to be treated rudely at the docks or anywhere else.

What I don't understand is people seem to be upset that Olivia Cruises is geared towards lesbians and that it isn't inclusive? I don't think it was set up so they could say x, y and z can't go. It was set up for lesbians to have vacations geared for them. There's nothing on their website talking about who can't go. It talks about being a lesbian owned travel business that sets up vacations for lesbians.

There are lots of vacation businesses and packages that are geared towards gay men. I have never been offended that they aren't geared for me. I am not interested in buying a vacation package to go on a cruise or other type of vacation geared towards gay men. I hope they have a great time.

Are people saying its wrong that all queers are not included? Why can't a travel business set up vacations aimed for lesbians? Or for gay men? Is there a different between Olivia Cruises and some travel business geared towards gay men? I genuinely am puzzled. If people wanted to have a butch femme vacation business I think that would be great and a queer vacation business for every single type of queer person would be great too. However, I don't think every single travel or other business needs to be geared towards every single type of queer person.

My other question is do people who are not lesbians really want to go on vacations geared towards lesbians?

I totally understand everyone can make their choices about where and who they want to vacation with and how they spend their money. I am not understanding why setting up vacations where lesbians are the target audience is wrong.

[SuperFemme]

Newsflash: There are many, many LESBIANS who are partnered with transfolk.

[Gayla]

What people are saying is that we each have an individual choice as to whether we support Olivia by attending their events and giving them our money.

Right now, where I'm at in my life today, I can't imagine spending any amount of time on a boat full of 3,000 lesbians. That's not some place that I would be comfortable. It doesn't sound like fun. Throw me on a boat full of 3,000 gay men, I'd probably have much more fun.

Olivia has the "right" to do whatever they want in the way they structure their business and who they choose to cater to in the same way that I get to decide who I support monetarily. In the past, I did support Olivia and give them quite a bit of my money. That was back when they were a women's music company and not a cruise line.

There seems to be some type of underlying insinuation that we should all support Olivia because they are a woman-owned / lesbian-owned business and that we are somehow "bad lesbians" or anti-lesbian or lesbiphobic if we don't.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFL

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

We are not talking about ANOTHER cruise line here .....We all have that option ..The point I was trying to make is YOU and I are not welcome on this ship ....Why would you go and make reservations on a ship you are not welcome on and take the chance of NOT getting your money back or even making it off the dock because you don't want to be a follwer ..This has nothing to do with being a follower ..The facts have been posted here very clearly ...If Me and My butch and trans brothers are not WELCOME period , I am not going ...Has NOTHING to do with I won't be your friend if this person goes or that person goes ...I'm starting to wonder if we are reading the same thread

[BullDog]

I did find the other convo on the other channel. I do agree with the concerns raised and also the points of making sure everyone would be welcomed and comfortable while at the same time respecting women's space. Interesting how people were treated for raising genuine concerns. Hmmm

I don't think women's only or lesbian space is exclusionary unless there are some women or lesbians (for example transwomen) who are not welcome. I don't feel businesses set up to cater to gay men are exclusionary. I do not feel excluded when trans events for trans people are organized.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I did find the other convo on the other channel. I do agree with the concerns raised and also the points of making sure everyone would be welcomed and comfortable while at the same time respecting women's space. Interesting how people were treated for raising genuine concerns. Hmmm

I don't think women's only or lesbian space is exclusionary unless there are some women or lesbians (for example transwomen) who are not welcome. I don't feel businesses set up to cater to gay men are exclusionary. I do not feel excluded when trans events for trans people are organized.

Hey I am all for a Lesbian cruise Have no problem with it ...But not all lesbians are femme and it seemed to leave out the folks that are more masculine and it should not matter what you look like , if you ID as Lesbian then all Lesbian should be welcome ..

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Billy

Hey I am all for a Lesbian cruise Have no problem with it ...But not all lesbians are femme and it seemed to leave out the folks that are more masculine and it should not matter what you look like , if you ID as Lesbian then all Lesbian should be welcome ..

I am a lesbian butch with a masculine appearance. I don't think I would have a problem if I wanted to go. As to butches and appearance you really can't tell by looking at someone whether they are lesbian or not. Many butches are lesbian. Some are not.

[Corkey]

Tell that to Blaze who was left holding a ticket on the docks. Don't know how Blaze ID'd at the time, but it would appear that appearance was the case.

[weatherboi]

hi Bulldog!!!
hi folks!!!

appearance aside i think there is a difference in how a group of female id'd butches are gonna be perceived/received by olivia than a group of male id'd butches.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am a lesbian butch with a masculine appearance. I don't think I would have a problem if I wanted to go. As to butches and appearance you really can't tell by looking at someone whether they are lesbian or not. Many butches are lesbian. Some are not.

I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

[Isadora]

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch.

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them.

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago.

*shrug*

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Billy

I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

Billy, I have been a lesbian for 30 years and have very masculine butch friends as well. We have never been turned away from lesbian events.

[The_Lady_Snow]

The conception of this thread started out peaceful, mind you we all threw it off course but the conversation was flowing pretty smoothly till these posts that have * on them.

**

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFL

Yeah I would still book with them just because I don't follow a group of people of what they did or don't do.

**

Some people replied some did not but the convo kept going then again another post suggesting that a whole other convo was happening

**

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Mountain Star I will not be able to go on the Lesbian cruise this October for various reasons unfortunately. I would love to go in future. As a lesbian I enjoy lesbian events and gatherings.
Since this thread is about a lesbian gathering perhaps it could be moved to the "Lesbian Zone" so wimmin can discuss the cruise without wading through pages of lesbophobia.

**

Some folks replied some did not but the convo kept going smoothly and yet AGAIN :

***

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.

**

Then we had more convo with some replies to this, a lil administration then I opened my mouth and asked this

**

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I would like to clarify that nowhere in my post did I come off with an intent to be anti lesbian.

Matter of fact lesbian was not even in my post.

So since you are making sweeping generalizations, I would like to say that I would not attend Olivia Cruises NOT because they cater to lesbians, but because I could not comfortably go with the person I am with, reason being..

They are not trans friendly.

**

More conversation happened then another member posted the proof that Olivia had said this:

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com

Then all that convo led to these views:

**

Originally Posted by Kobi

I can see all the forms of phobias, and inclusion/exclusion and probably a few isms as well.

What I cant seem to get passed is ....what do you mean I am stuck on a huge ship with thousands of people I dont know in the middle of nowhere for a week? Not even dealing with the poo issue....thanks Jack.

Maybe a harbor cruise or a day sailing trip hugging the coast? Anyone?

**

Which then turned into everyone was picking friends cause of who went where:

**

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFL

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

**


So *I* just had to ask wtf and I did

**

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This is kinda ridiculous, to assume that people are posting their opinions so that all their friends follow like sheeple and not go on a vacation if that is what they wanted to do.

If (insert name) decided tomorrow that she was going on and Olivia Cruise, I would be like

I would more than likely talk to her about it, and our friendship would change since she is supporting a place I do not for it's policies. I don't know to what degree it would change but I am pretty positive that I would not just kick her to the curb without having some kind of dialogue.


Once again I find it odd that you are reading some subliminal message that is saying if pick a side or you are out the club.

Really odd.




PS

Can someone PLEASE point out the phobia, inclusion/exclusion ism's comments?????? PLEASE

**


BTW the whole lesbian phobia was never pointed out, but then someone did make a not so nice comment and it got Moderated. So then Bully came in here not sure what was going on I EXPLAINED TWICE why the fall out.

Some people were hurt and still are because well I get some folks have been lesbians for a lot longer than some of us, now this is just me coming from *MY* space

when we say something like this

"I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome."

Really? How dismissing cause how does anyone know what the other posters identity was before they transitioned, does their history get erased and dismissed just because they no longer refer or feel this way or comfortable in that mattress tag?


The kick in the gut

"I love how non lesbians are some how the authority. "

Well I am a non lesbian, this is insulting and once again dismissing and therefore the blow out.

The person who posted this is right.

I am non lesbian, I identified with dyke when I was younger, for reasons that you don't really want to hear because if I do decide to share my experience I am 99.9% sure some people will view it as anti lesbian or lesbian phobic.

That's how the convo turned to shit, it was all fun and fluff in the beginning till people who were called liars, and be littled came in to vent cause of their hurt.

Even one member posted their experience with Olivia which was downright ugly.

But nooooooooooooo even then it looked like Blaze was getting lectured for not calling the BBB, and not checking the fine print, did not matter he was a lesbian at the young age of 22 and that when we are that age we are not as savvy as we are now in our more mature age, even then with Blaze sharing the story, it was like eh it was 8 year ago and well we really don't have the full story, cause well his words were not good enough?

Facts are Mountain Star wanted to see if anyone was going on the cruise, we ALL turned into a thread about how we feel about Olivia due to other things that happened elsewhere, from there well you can basically watch the dominoes fall.

*I* still feel each time trans folk or trans issues are discussed, it somehow turns into.... Everyone is dogging out the lesbians, so not true and frankly I for one am sick of those assumptions so like someone said

I don't know what planet ya'll are living on but I live on one where I don't diss or dismiss any gay, queer, trans, lesbian or anyone that falls in the gender spectrum. PERIOD.

[Toughy]

"I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome."

I entirely and completely agree with the above statement.

Really? How dismissing cause how does anyone know what the other posters identity was before they transitioned, does their history get erased and dismissed just because they no longer refer or feel this way or comfortable in that mattress tag?

Me making my own decisions as a lesbian about where I will feel welcome has SHIT to do with someone else's history. I as a lesbian may feel welcomed in a place another lesbian would not. That has no reflection on another lesbians comfort level.

As to the non-lesbian comment ..........snark/sarcasm ......... something we all do on occasion...it made me snort in that kind of ironic way as ALL snark/sarcasm usually does. The snark is not some special mean I hate you shut the fuck up kind of statement, although apparently it can be taken that way.

I gotta tell ya here. I am/was feeling a bit of lesbophobia starting to happen here in this thread. Not something you can specifically quote, but none-the-less it was hovering in the background. As a lesbian I should be able to say that without having to produce a quote. It's falls in the same category as 'this feels racist, sexist, homophobic', white privilege'.

We highly object when someone who has left all of us with a feeling of racism, however there is no direct quote to produce to prove that. We will call out that racism in a heartbeat, to the bewilderment of the poster. Likely we will never be able to specifically show that poster where the racism exists in what was said.

And sometimes we are wrong (on both sides). And sometimes we are right (on both sides).

I hope anyone who decides to put themselves on a boat with 2000-3000 has a great time. The likelihood of me doing that is about zero. I am not getting trapped on a boat for a week with a bunch of strangers or friends. Besides after Jack's little post about poo and pee and other stuff spewed out of the boats in the open sea...........shaking my head...........