The Ultimate Backpack: Unpacking your own Male Privilege

[Bob]

Originally Posted by little man

as a side note, your example brings to mind some class issues. i also wonder if it is necessary to do oneself harm to help others?

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Bob

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

That wasn't the intent or meaning of it. If that is how it appeared, then I apologize for a poor example. The intent and idea behind the example was more that a person should be chosen on ability and not because they are one of the good ol' boys. It's not to say that the WOC wouldn't be able to speak up or stand up for herself. If I said that the white male was told of the job offer after others left, then no one else would have been aware. In that instance, the offer is made based entirely on WMP and the rejection the offer is/would be a rejection of WMP.


little man: haven't forgotten your request. Just trying to see if I can think of a better example.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Linus

That wasn't the intent or meaning of it. If that is how it appeared, then I apologize for a poor example. The intent and idea behind the example was more that a person should be chosen on ability and not because they are one of the good ol' boys. It's not to say that the WOC wouldn't be able to speak up or stand up for herself. If I said that the white male was told of the job offer after others left, then no one else would have been aware. In that instance, the offer is made based entirely on WMP and the rejection the offer is/would be a rejection of WMP.


little man: haven't forgotten your request. Just trying to see if I can think of a better example.

I understand your intention wasn't to be demeaning in this way - that it is only positive. The intention of Affirmative Action was a positive one, as well, and in all the ways that it did and does work, it's still good, but a lot of people it is meant to serve come away with a very negative feeling. They do not ever wish to be seen as having merely been hired to meet a quota. Privileged groups and racist others will believe this is why, no matter what.

It feels good to say, "No, you accept the position because you are more qualified," but in a system that has, for so long, taught us that women and people of color, et al, cannot possibly be more qualified (and has ensured the unlikelihood they will be), it will continue to ring disingenuous.

What needs to happen, instead, is that the ground becomes more level. Not because individual men lie down and flatten themselves, but because everyone participates in the razing of the old institutions and thinking that has made the ground so steep in the past.

[Linus]

Little man: I've been rethinking this all day to see if I could come up with a more realistic example but have been unable. And considering as well the other comments, I've been reconsidering my comment. I'm beginning to think that the ability to remove WMP and give it to others may be too optimistic by me. So I apologize for the disagreement of privilege being returned. I think I'll be thinking about this more over the holidays to see if I can come to a better idea or concept of how to address this, particularly from a personal point of view.


Thank you to everyone for the comments and pointing out the patronizing attitude/idea I had come up with. It is, to me, a sign of my own privilege that comes through at times and a realization as to the amount of self-work I still need to yet do. I am very grateful that I am, at least, able to muddle my way through it and hopefully figure it out at some point.

And thank for participating in this thread.

[Linus]

I have to thank Heart for mention Paul Kivel. He has some interesting articles on privilge (http://www.paulkivel.com/articles.php). Although 10 years old, the article Angry Young White Men is certainly interesting. It does highlight something that should be changed: how we educate young people on the history of this continent. It shouldn't be from the PoV of the conqueror but of all. Zinn's History of America comes to mind.

[little man]

Originally Posted by Linus

I have to thank Heart for mention Paul Kivel. He has some interesting articles on privilge (http://www.paulkivel.com/articles.php). Although 10 years old, the article Angry Young White Men is certainly interesting. It does highlight something that should be changed: how we educate young people on the history of this continent. It shouldn't be from the PoV of the conqueror but of all. Zinn's History of America comes to mind.

"to the victor goes the spoils"

that also, unfortunately, includes the right to write history from their perspective.

i've long thought that it's a damn shame there isn't a requirement for objective, factual reporting. but, humans being what they are, it'll never happen.

thanks for the linkage.

[Dylan]

Guilt doesn't level a playing field

Guilt also keeps the attention on the one with the privilege and NOT on the less privileged...which (again) is privileged


If Ya' Got It, Ya' Got It...Own It And Move On, So You Can Do Something With It Instead Of Wallowing That You Got It,
Dylan

[Quintease]

This thread reminds me of Ben Barr, an FTM scientist. After a talk, a member of the audience apparently said - “Ben Barres gave a great talk today…his work is much better than his sister’s.” Only Ben Barr doesn't have a sister.

[Evan]

Originally Posted by Quintease

This thread reminds me of Ben Barr, an FTM scientist. After a talk, a member of the audience apparently said - “Ben Barres gave a great talk today…his work is much better than his sister’s.” Only Ben Barr doesn't have a sister.

That phenomenon has occured for several people in several environments. "He's far better in this positioin than that woman we fired"- same person , same job, post-transition. "The research was far superior than the unscholarly work "x" tried to submit" -Exact same research, submitted under male name, post transition .

Of course it also happens the other way around too.
"x " was always hilarious. Not like this misogynistic prick " -Same person , same joke, post transition.....
And that really sucks.

[MickMan]

Newbie to this site but I have to say I am really enjoying this thread.

I am transmale. Started my transition in 2004. I pass 100% and have only had one surgery, but I have to say it is such a different life.

I completely agree that I am treated with respect, dignity and kindness. I see people do such kind things for me that I would have never received back prior to 2004 and it astonishes me at exactly HOW differently it is.

I take care of my mom who has Alzheimer's. I am praised every time someone hears about it. But, there are many women who do the same and rarely get any thanks. I am thanked for the things I use to do that went unnoticed.

It is crazy.

[Linus]

Mickman, welcome!

It is weird to receive those accolades when you know that others do it. Have you ever challenged someone when they praise you but not others, particularly women?

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I understand your intention wasn't to be demeaning in this way - that it is only positive. The intention of Affirmative Action was a positive one, as well, and in all the ways that it did and does work, it's still good, but a lot of people it is meant to serve come away with a very negative feeling. They do not ever wish to be seen as having merely been hired to meet a quota. Privileged groups and racist others will believe this is why, no matter what.

It feels good to say, "No, you accept the position because you are more qualified," but in a system that has, for so long, taught us that women and people of color, et al, cannot possibly be more qualified (and has ensured the unlikelihood they will be), it will continue to ring disingenuous.

What needs to happen, instead, is that the ground becomes more level. Not because individual men lie down and flatten themselves, but because everyone participates in the razing of the old institutions and thinking that has made the ground so steep in the past.

Agreed.

It doesn't seem possible to "give back" or "reject" WMP without it appearing (maybe even really *being*) a pat-yourself-on-the-back action.........in the end, possibly self-serving.

The way I see it, we need to go about the business of building up all others and shining the light on those who are more deserving.

If you don't mind an analogy from the poker table... We see time and again, an aggressive player who has been betting at a big pot surrender in the end (before it's time to show the cards) and say, "I'm gonna let you have this one."

The player would have one believe that he holds a good hand.......maybe even the best hand.......but he is going to fold it and "let the other person have it" as if he is doing that player a favor.

It takes a big person to lay down the cards and say, "I'm beat. Good hand."

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by little man

am i willing to give up my seat at the table so someone else can eat? you bet. am i willing to starve myself to death? i dunno about that.

Thank you, as ever, for your thoughtfulness as much as your sincerity, Wil.

What troubles me in your scenario, Linus, is that, were I the woman on the receiving end of this "giving back privilege" exercise (and as a woman, I might be), it would be important to me that any "privilege" handed down to me were wiped clean of well, privilege. It could only and necessarily be about merit in order that I feel you were honest in your efforts to level the field. I don't want your hand out. Nor do I want you doing a personal disservice to yourself in order that I might get what is rightfully mine. Stop agreeing to lie down in puddles so that my feet stay dry. I don't need a white knight. What I need is for you to speak frankly about systems of inequality when you see them, and to engage in right action when you find yourself working from within those systems by joining your voice with my voice whenever and however you can.

Originally Posted by Bob

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

Case in point.