Pressurised to transition.

[AtLast]

This is a very sensitive issue. Personally, I have not felt this pressure from trans guys online or in real time. I have had an association with transgendered people since the 1960's. And I have an intergendered first cousin. This has been part of my life for a very long time. Yet, as a non-trans FIB, I claim no expertise around issues such as this.

I have, however, felt some pressure from femmes to transition. Now, these are femmes from real-time dating and not one of them (there are 3) are members here. I know that this is also a sensitive statement, as well. I mean no negativity toward any femme by this.

I can also say that I have dated a couple of femmes that wanted to know if I had considered transitioning and were very clear that if I was, they were not for me (again, not members here). LOL, dating again has been pretty crazy! Right now, I ham taking a break from it.

To be honest, I have never quite been able to come to any conclusions about this. It might be related to my living in a region where there are greater numbers of queers of every kind and a center for a lot of services for transgendered people. The question might just come up more because of this. And perhaps many femmes here are just more familiar with transitioning overall and have just thought more about relating to a Transperson. I don't know.

I used to be troubled by this. I'm not any longer. As gender is more understood outside of the traditional binary, I believe there will be more conversation about it. I view this as positive. Seems like a natural occurrence to me. But, these are only my thoughts from personal experience up to this point in my life. I can be upset if the nature of my butch identity as a woman is negated by someone.

I do, however, feel it is very important for anyone that feels any type of pressure about transitioning (or anything else, for that matter) speak out and hold their personal boundaries in place. That does not mean being rude or relying on or perpetuating any stereotypes about transgendered people.

[Corkey]

I have to also say that there are Stone Butches, some of who have top surgery and some who don't. They are not transitioning either.
I hope you take a look in the forums on the gender threads to get a better understanding of how genders are thought and discussed. It's very useful to folks who are new to the site.

[atomiczombie]

Before I started my transition, no one every pressured me or suggested to me that I should do so. And I have never, and will never pressure or suggest to anyone that they be anything other than who they feel they are.

Sorry for responding since I'm not a butch, but I used to ID as one a few years ago.

[Soon]

My husband was never pressured. He felt, in his late forties, that it was about high time that he lived for himself and lived--outwardly--as the man he has always been--inside.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I have to also say that there are Stone Butches, some of who have top surgery and some who don't. They are not transitioning either.
I hope you take a look in the forums on the gender threads to get a better understanding of how genders are thought and discussed. It's very useful to folks who are new to the site.

So true. And I know FIBs that have had or are considering top surgery.

It sure can be confusing- plain complicated. The Planet gives space to so many issues, topics, processes, and gender ideology. I hope new members take a look and I also hope we all understand that many folks may just not have had much about transgender and intergender information or people around them. I know I have to be careful not to assume that every person on the site has this experience or knowledge.

I am always learning something from the site and our diverse membership. And hell, I'm old!!

Addition- there is a thread about the upcoming Butch Voices Conference in Oakland. I went to the first one a couple of years ago. I will attend this one and I highly recommend this to members. The organization has multuple events around the US (or has in the past). Really covers all aspects of gender and a good way to learn about trans issues as well as butch issues- covers all of us!! www.butchvoices.com

[Merlin]

Other forums I am on have had alot of butches who have gone through or are going through gender re-assignment.

Like I said previously the butch/femme community is tiny and close to dying out.

Afraid I don't sit on the fence when I have something on my mind.

It's not that I feel pressured to change,i don't want to am more than happy in my skin.

It's more the fact that society would like me to change,so they can feel more "comfortable" with who I am.

[Turtle]

There have been times in my life when I wanted to have surgery and now I do not. Nobody has said anything, but there have been transguys who have given off a stink that I was not good enough or "real" for not having surgery or taking T.

And I have gotten to the "fuck 'em" stage. I'm me and I don't need to be accepted by you and it's unfortunate that they can't be more respectful of other folks.

[iamkeri1]

I too am in the "old" group, so listen up because I have some good advice for y'all. I am a femme who has spent more than half of her life partnered to FTM's, and I would NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER (I can't say it enough) encourage ANYONE to transition. It is the hardest thing that any person could ever go through, and for the partner, I speculate that it is even harder than it is for the person who transitions.

If you genuinely feel displaced in your body or your spirit, then transitioning will be one high after another for you. BUT - it will still be the hardest thing you will ever do.

To any femmes (or anyone else for that matter) who may encourage or pressure your friends, partners, acquaintences to transition, PLEASE stop. Almost all relationships end when one of the partners transition. In fact most end right away when one partner expresses the desire to transition. When my late husband transitioned, we were in a support group that included about fifty couples, both FTM and MTF. Out of these fifty couples only two survived the transition. My husband and I were one, the other was a couple that began their lives together as Gay men, and one of them transitioned MTF. They are a wonderfully loving couple and I am still friends with them .

I could go on for three hours about all the hard painful things that happen when your partner transitions, but you can find that information elsewhere. I loved my husband with everything I had in me, and he returned my love at least that strongly. He has been dead for seven plus years and I am still not fully recovered ... Not from losing him and not from losing me. Cause that's what happened when he transitioned. I transitioned too - from gay to straight.

Finding my way back to myself, or rather TO my new self has been a long complicated (though sometimes exciting) journey.

Finding oneself is hard and is a journey that continues throughout ones life. Let people find their own selves. Don't push them in any direction. The world had room for every variation on the gender spectrum. Make room for everyone as they are and as they evolve ON THEIR OWN.
Smooches,
Keri

[Corkey]

I thought about this last night as I was falling blissfully asleep.
It's about maturity, the knowledge of self and being secure enough in ones self. No one can pressure anyone into anything if that person is secure enough in knowing who they are. It's as simple as that.

Just be you!

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

I too am in the "old" group, so listen up because I have some good advice for y'all. I am a femme who has spent more than half of her life partnered to FTM's, and I would NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER (I can't say it enough) encourage ANYONE to transition. It is the hardest thing that any person could ever go through, and for the partner, I speculate that it is even harder than it is for the person who transitions.

If you genuinely feel displaced in your body or your spirit, then transitioning will be one high after another for you. BUT - it will still be the hardest thing you will ever do.

To any femmes (or anyone else for that matter) who may encourage or pressure your friends, partners, acquaintences to transition, PLEASE stop. Almost all relationships end when one of the partners transition. In fact most end right away when one partner expresses the desire to transition. When my late husband transitioned, we were in a support group that included about fifty couples, both FTM and MTF. Out of these fifty couples only two survived the transition. My husband and I were one, the other was a couple that began their lives together as Gay men, and one of them transitioned MTF. They are a wonderfully loving couple and I am still friends with them .

I could go on for three hours about all the hard painful things that happen when your partner transitions, but you can find that information elsewhere. I loved my husband with everything I had in me, and he returned my love at least that strongly. He has been dead for seven plus years and I am still not fully recovered ... Not from losing him and not from losing me. Cause that's what happened when he transitioned. I transitioned too - from gay to straight.

Finding my way back to myself, or rather TO my new self has been a long complicated (though sometimes exciting) journey.

Finding oneself is hard and is a journey that continues throughout ones life. Let people find their own selves. Don't push them in any direction. The world had room for every variation on the gender spectrum. Make room for everyone as they are and as they evolve ON THEIR OWN.
Smooches,
Keri

I once dated a genderqueer woman whose previous relationship had pressured her to change. "N" (not her real initial) was involved with a girl who, on a daily basis, pressured her to start taking T and to start saving for the series of surgeries. But, the problem was that, although N did want to have top surgery and did want to have a hysterectomy (because of period problems), she wanted to remain a woman. She is a singer so wants to preserve her voice; she likes wearing make-up and she likes being in a woman/woman sexual relationship-amoung many other reasons. Her ex put her through HELL and N ended up being insecure about herself, her body and her mind. She realizes that she had masculine energy but had accepted that she was born into a woman's body. However, her ex was determined to make her change and all of her self acceptance was destroyed when that relationship finally ended.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

This is a very sensitive issue. Personally, I have not felt this pressure from trans guys online or in real time. I have had an association with transgendered people since the 1960's. And I have an intergendered first cousin. This has been part of my life for a very long time. Yet, as a non-trans FIB, I claim no expertise around issues such as this.

I have, however, felt some pressure from femmes to transition. Now, these are femmes from real-time dating and not one of them (there are 3) are members here. I know that this is also a sensitive statement, as well. I mean no negativity toward any femme by this...

I'm really sorry this happened to you, ALH. To be honest, I've heard conversations amongst femme women in which they changed preferred pronouns to male against the expressed preferences of the butch woman they were discussing. I've also heard femmes put subtle pressure on butches to ID as male. It's not quite the same thing as pressuring a butch to transition, but I think it's on the continuum. If I witness this I never let it go. It's my nature to challenge that kind of disrespect.

The worst incidences I've witnessed of pressuring butches to transition came from a very good FTM friend of mine who has transitioned and lives his life fully as a male. I have heard him tell butch women that they should transition because T is such a great drug, or because their lives would be easier as men, etc. He's even suggested that I take T. No, he was not joking. He seems to believe that T is some kind of health tonic. We've had huge fights over this, and I've warned him not to risk losing my respect. Hopefully I've heard the last of it. We're still friends because I consider him family, but his relentless pressure against butch women has occasionally endangered his status in my life.

I've also witnessed very young people pressuring each other to transition. Because it's cool. Yes, it's true. I live in NYC where there's a subculture and plenty of information about how to obtain street T.

So, the answer is YES. It happens, and it sucks. Just like Strappie wrote, it's no different than pressuring a person to be straight.

[Heart]

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.

I will say that I have, over the years, witnessed online a kind of pressure from some femmes towards butches to be the "men of the community," which horrified me. (What is wrong with being the BUTCHES of the community??)

I will also say that I know numerous transmen who get it -- who have no interest in "converting" butches and respect and honor them for who they are.

And the last thing I'll say is that some butches I know are 3rd gender and others are women. Woman and butch are not, have never been, and never will be mutually exclusive of each other.

Heart

[BullDog]

What Heart says resonates with me. It's not really just a question of do you or do not feel pressured to transition. It's more the "pressure cooker" she describes. The conflation of butch with male/man drives me insane. The conflation of masculine with male drives me insane. This comes from within butch femme communities.

Also within butch femme communities, the definition of woman seems to get narrower and narrower to the point where so many butches feel they don't fit the definition of woman. I claim woman. I am invested in expanding what woman is and can be. To me that is liberating for myself and hopefully helps other women feel liberated as well (not just butch women). I would like to see as much exploration of what woman can be and mean in terms of gender as much as seems to be paid to male/masculine.

This pressure cooker is not coming just from transmen or just femmes- it comes from all genders in the bf community.

In the outside world, visibly queer/lesbian butches have to face the world both as queers and women (and women going against the grain to boot).

So, there's lots of factors going into this, not just yes or no to transition.

Thank you very much for your post, Heart.

[Strappie]

I know a fem whom use to use the trump card to piss a butch off or be hateful towards them buy using "your not ever going to be butch enough for a fem" I know it's made some question who they are. I also think that it does put pressure on some insecure butches as to who they are. I have never condoned this behavior. Nor will I allow it to happen in my presence!

It's harsh and so wrong!!

[1PlayfulFemme]

I think where pressure exists is very rarely in the verbal realm. It's not like someone calls every day saying "You need to transistion". I have certainly seen butch friends of mine feel pressured into identifying male because their friends did, or a femme wanted them to (regardless of whether that identity was mental or physically changing).

I have friends who i.d. male. Period. No one pressured them, no one could pressure them. I also have friends who aren't sure where their i.d. exists. (which only they can decide..when they are ready). I have friends who have completed the transformation, others who have just begun and still others who are happy just where they are.

For me, if you are feeling pressured to change your very identity, you need to look at the people/circumstances that are making you feel that way. If you feel like you should be a man, or that you ARE a man (on the inside - where it counts), that's one thing entirely. If you feel like you are a woman and you don't want to transistion, then don't. Identify as female.

Only you know what lies inside yourself. And if people really care about you, it doesn't matter if you are male i.d'ed, female i.d'ed, male, female, or somewhere in the middle. As long as you are happy - and secure in your own identity.

When you love and accept yourself fully, others opinions about you don't seem as important as they once did. You are the one that will have to live with any choice you make for whatever period of time in your life that choice affects you....so do what's right for your soul. Your happiness is bound to follow!!!

(Just my .02) *flips coin into the conversation*

[Chazz]

I am a 3rd gendered butch who has come to be comfortable in my woman body. Such was not always the case because of the "pressure cooker" effect that Heart speaks of so eloquently.

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Absolutely ! ! ! ! This will continue to happen as long as behavior is gendered. Clothing, hair cuts, career choices, childhood preferences in toys, etc., too.

Gender constructs (gay, straight, or otherwise), are the root cause of this. Existing constructs, from whatever quarter, are arbitrary and subjective; wholly idiosyncratic. No gender self-concept is ever entirely free from external influences. Humans are social animals; none of us live in a vacuum.

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

Originally Posted by Heart

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker.

Or, just plain silly.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. Including, my past relationships.

The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

[DapperButch]

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

[Liam]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

I never experienced any outside pressure to transition, it was all internal; nor have I pressured anyone to transition.

I never questioned myself about being butch enough, nor did anyone else. You are not alone, Dapper.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Greyson;338953]I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.[/QUOTE]

Your entire post brings up important distinction- but the last statement really strikes me. Neither is very easy and no matter the negative things that may have happened to any of us, "get" this statement. And there are the issues born of the "normative structures" that femmes deal with.

I do have transmen real-time friends (fully transitioned)that feel more at peace in terms of gender, but not like life is less complicated.

I only hope as we going along the way, we figure out more constructive and positive ways to relate to each and and as a population that is a grouping of sub-cultures within a sub-culture within the outside, normative oppression we have all felt.

I think this makes sense.