Pressurised to transition.

[Chazz]

I am a 3rd gendered butch who has come to be comfortable in my woman body. Such was not always the case because of the "pressure cooker" effect that Heart speaks of so eloquently.

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Absolutely ! ! ! ! This will continue to happen as long as behavior is gendered. Clothing, hair cuts, career choices, childhood preferences in toys, etc., too.

Gender constructs (gay, straight, or otherwise), are the root cause of this. Existing constructs, from whatever quarter, are arbitrary and subjective; wholly idiosyncratic. No gender self-concept is ever entirely free from external influences. Humans are social animals; none of us live in a vacuum.

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

Originally Posted by Heart

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker.

Or, just plain silly.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. Including, my past relationships.

The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

[DapperButch]

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

[Liam]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

I never experienced any outside pressure to transition, it was all internal; nor have I pressured anyone to transition.

I never questioned myself about being butch enough, nor did anyone else. You are not alone, Dapper.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Greyson;338953]I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.[/QUOTE]

Your entire post brings up important distinction- but the last statement really strikes me. Neither is very easy and no matter the negative things that may have happened to any of us, "get" this statement. And there are the issues born of the "normative structures" that femmes deal with.

I do have transmen real-time friends (fully transitioned)that feel more at peace in terms of gender, but not like life is less complicated.

I only hope as we going along the way, we figure out more constructive and positive ways to relate to each and and as a population that is a grouping of sub-cultures within a sub-culture within the outside, normative oppression we have all felt.

I think this makes sense.

[CherylNYC]

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WvtkCOd33s"]YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏[/nomedia]

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏

This so addresses how I feel at times with continued questioning about my gender- my being a masculine woman and one that feels quite comfortable being so. And it deeply saddens (and angers) me as a licensed clinician (retired) that a therapist did this! In fact it is something that ought to be reported to the licensing board as mal-practice.

This is exactly the kind of thing that could push a butch into transitioning when they are not transgendered or intergendered. I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

Until the many "faces" of gender is truly understood by society at large (and even within our corner of queerdom), we are all negatively affected by gender ignorance. Butches, femmes, transpeople, intergendered people, and third gender individuals. And there are even more gender types being researched and theorized about.

I have looked at my own gender identity in many ways since the 1960's when first knowing a trans teen friend. I've looked and questioned and pondered and have always come to the conclusion that I am a woman through and through. But not the kind of woman that is recognized as a woman without doubt or presumption- other people's doubt, not my own.

I heard a very sad srory from a femme I dated a couple of years ago about a butch that transitioned (had top surgery along with taking T for several years) that was going through hell because she (reverted to female pronounds) felt she made a mistake and was caught up in a kind of "fad." At that point, she was going through a lot of pain because the very people that supported (and according to her) and she felt pressured by to transition (they were/had) turned their backs on her as a friend. Now, I never met this person and my info is second hand, so I never had a discussion with her. But this felt really awful to me. I don't know how it all ended up for her. At that time, she was going to stop the T and hopefully have more surgeries to revert back to a female bodied person according to what I was told. Since she lives in SF, it appeared that she was able to find some support with what she wanted to do. I hope so. I doubt that this is common- especially after actually having surgery. But, it does bring to light the subject of this thread and things that are really important to take a look at. And like I said, I cannot possibly have all the facts.

[PumaJ]

I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

AtLastHome, I appreciate the many fine points you've made. Perhaps we are seeing a version of misogyny in action. IDK...

I've had some conversations with a few of the masculine of center (MOC) women I know about the subject of FTM transitions. Most stand very strong in their female masculinity, and whether they ID as Butch, Boi, or Two-Spirit, they each see themselves as being a 3rd gender, alongside dominant culture's tradition of gender binary. That is, being neither female or male, but rather both at once, in female form. In my conversations we've spoken about their individual comfort levels in relation to the various aspects of their female anatomies. None of them are 100% comfortable with all of their parts, but only one has talked about undergoing a FTM transition. Another two have spoken about wanting breast reductions, but not mastectomies. We have talked about the number of younger MOC women making FTM transitions & some of the pressure my friends have perceived that encourages FTM transition. For the most part, except for one long time Butch friend, none of them are very happy with what they see going on. They don't disparage those for whom transition is due to truly feeling as though they are a male trapped in female form. It's just they don't view being a MOC woman as the same thing as being a male trapped in female form.

As a High Femme who is only romantically & sexually attracted to women who are quite MOC, it is my observation & experience that the infusion of strong female masculine energy through the female form is a very powerful combination. Just as it's opposite, the infusion of male femininity through the male form is very powerful. Cultures in other places & times have recognized the power of such combinations, resulting in the acceptance of multigendered societies/cultures. In some, 3rd, 4th, 5th gendered persons have been held in high regard as a result of being multigendered.

As a long time feminist, I am of the view that each individual woman is the only one who gets to determine the way/ways in which she expresses herself as a woman in the world. In that view, I am including all women be they femme, butch, boi, stud, AG, or no particular ID beyond female. I feel frustrated & sometimes angry at those who try to impose their personal understanding or version of being female onto someone else.

If my use of the pronoun she has offended anyone, I apologize. I mean no disrespect, or lack of recognition to those who use alternative pronouns. I suspect I'm being semantically lazy in finding it easier to just use she, today. I do recognize other pronouns & do use them in personal speech when indicated.

[hpychick]

Pressurised? Really? Sorry for the derail.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by PumaJ

AtLastHome, I appreciate the many fine points you've made. Perhaps we are seeing a version of misogyny in action. IDK...

I've had some conversations with a few of the masculine of center (MOC) women I know about the subject of FTM transitions. Most stand very strong in their female masculinity, and whether they ID as Butch, Boi, or Two-Spirit, they each see themselves as being a 3rd gender, alongside dominant culture's tradition of gender binary. That is, being neither female or male, but rather both at once, in female form. In my conversations we've spoken about their individual comfort levels in relation to the various aspects of their female anatomies. None of them are 100% comfortable with all of their parts, but only one has talked about undergoing a FTM transition. Another two have spoken about wanting breast reductions, but not mastectomies. We have talked about the number of younger MOC women making FTM transitions & some of the pressure my friends have perceived that encourages FTM transition. For the most part, except for one long time Butch friend, none of them are very happy with what they see going on. They don't disparage those for whom transition is due to truly feeling as though they are a male trapped in female form. It's just they don't view being a MOC woman as the same thing as being a male trapped in female form.

As a High Femme who is only romantically & sexually attracted to women who are quite MOC, it is my observation & experience that the infusion of strong female masculine energy through the female form is a very powerful combination. Just as it's opposite, the infusion of male femininity through the male form is very powerful. Cultures in other places & times have recognized the power of such combinations, resulting in the acceptance of multigendered societies/cultures. In some, 3rd, 4th, 5th gendered persons have been held in high regard as a result of being multigendered.

As a long time feminist, I am of the view that each individual woman is the only one who gets to determine the way/ways in which she expresses herself as a woman in the world. In that view, I am including all women be they femme, butch, boi, stud, AG, or no particular ID beyond female. I feel frustrated & sometimes angry at those who try to impose their personal understanding or version of being female onto someone else.

If my use of the pronoun she has offended anyone, I apologize. I mean no disrespect, or lack of recognition to those who use alternative pronouns. I suspect I'm being semantically lazy in finding it easier to just use she, today. I do recognize other pronouns & do use them in personal speech when indicated.

I appreciate this post very much- it gets to some things that I may "feel" but don't always know exactly how to express.

Absolutely 3rd gender theory and interpretation fits in with some of what I want to express. Two-Spirit philosophy and the core of the spiritual within gender identity (the Egyptian "Gender tree" falls into the equation here for me also) is something that touches me personally (just me, can't put this on others). I feel like gender theory advances (and will continue to give) some internal peace in many ways even as a FIB or MOC. This is a good thing! Also, it has certainly helped many of my trans and intergendered friends and a family member some peace and hopefully, tranquility and a space for joy in this life.

Yes, "a version of misogyny in action" comes to mind for me during these discussions- and not just as it relates to women- to men as well. It just has always seemed to me that misogyny is a lose-lose-lose construct.

One of the positive aspects of how gender theory is evolving is that finally, it encompasses gender outside of traditional (and stereotypic) notions of male-female, masculine-feminine- going to 3rd gender, two spirit, etc. and creates a space for women like me! My personal gender identification is as a woman and female with masculine physical traits that are adjunctive (without any values attached to this at all) in many ways.

What is rather interesting, however, is that a model going back to Kinsey in 1948 still describes more accurately than any other myself as a gender-blended female person that is individually-based. (http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97...jtc0102.htm#An individually-based gender continuum). Although, there are many newer hypotheses, some delving into we non-trans folks that could bring further peace and tranquility. Well, except for the outside world we have to deal with!

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

It's been my experience that "role playing" was a circuitous path. Would that I could have had a more direct trajectory.

Role-playing may or may not be a way of working through dominant culture constructs. It may also be a way of embracing them. You say as much in your next quote.

Originally Posted by Greyson

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

Role playing is a form of acting-as-if. It happens no less within subcultures where dominant culture values are rejected. Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers come to mind.

Are we all sponges for dominant culture values, sure, at least until we shed them as best we can. That is if we're of a mind to, of course. (This includes cultural outlaws like Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers, too. There deal may be oppositional; it may also be a way of conceding defeat.)

Originally Posted by Greyson

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "double-edged sword". I contextually take it to mean good and bad at the same time.

If I read you accurately, are you saying that identifying as "butch" was who you really were at the time, or was that a role-play?

The reason I ask is because it never occurred to me to think of butch or "Trans" in terms of complexity - i.e. one being more complex than the other. I see them as two separate and distinct identities, not different points along the same continuum. Although, I have heard people speak of butch and "Trans" in such a way, I think doing so is the source of much confusion and consternation.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Chazz

It's been my experience that "role playing" was a circuitous path. Would that I could have had a more direct trajectory.

Role-playing may or may not be a way of working through dominant culture constructs. It may also be a way of embracing them. You say as much in your next quote.



Role playing is a form of acting-as-if. It happens no less within subcultures where dominant culture values are rejected. Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers come to mind.

Are we all sponges for dominant culture values, sure, at least until we shed them as best we can. That is if we're of a mind to, of course. (This includes cultural outlaws like Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers, too. There deal may be oppositional; it may also be a way of conceding defeat.)



I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "double-edged sword". I contextually take it to mean good and bad at the same time.

If I read you accurately, are you saying that identifying as "butch" was who you really were at the time, or was that a role-play?

The reason I ask is because it never occurred to me to think of butch or "Trans" in terms of complexity - i.e. one being more complex than the other. I see them as two separate and distinct identities, not different points along the same continuum. Although, I have heard people speak of butch and "Trans" in such a way, I think doing so is the source of much confusion and consternation.

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman. I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

[AtLast]

I hope eventually we can talk about what julieisafemme brought up about how at times, one can grieve the loss of a butch friend that decides to transition. I think she was talking about this in terms of losses that can be felt by butches with other butch friends transitioning. That is how I interpreted her post.

I know that this can be really sensitive- which can be based upon the very myths that some posters are bringing up. I.e., what Liam points to in the danger of accepting the mythologies of trans guys increasing in our B-F community and butch identity decreasing. Or, trans guys just want to take up with femmes in the B-F community.

There are so many other kinds of things that a butch friend might be grieving that are just human responses to the loss of a part of someone that they have experienced for years as a friend that have nothing to do with any of that and everything to do with adjustments/adaptations people go through. I have certainly grieved the loss of a friend's physical mobility before because I shared years of playing sports with that friend and now that has changed and we have to work out other activities to share. Now, my friends have to deal with my having disability issues and make adjustments. One has taken a powder- not really much of a friend, really.

For me, there has been some grief about a friend that transitions that I have shared specific butch lesbian constructs with in the past. And for a time, often, there could be that a friend just spends more time with other trans friends than me that has always been someone I did a lot of things with. Even with their partner and my own in the past. On one level, I get this as it is important to get involved in support groups and attend conferences, etc. in which I am not part of. People only have so much time to share with friends, family, partners, and work- so things just shift. But there can be hurt feelings.

I remember the loss my late partner's daughter felt due to her "Other Mother" transitioning into her "Dad." She grieved the loss of that other mother as a female co-parent and had a difficult time even trying to express herself because she felt like she might hurt her Dad's feelings. So, she ended up resenting his transition for a time (she was pre-teen at the time of his starting to transition) and blaming it on her parents splitting up.

I, myself after the suicide of a trans childhood friend in high school had several years in which transition of anyone I knew brought up a lot of fear. I was a lot younger then and it was an entirely different world in terms of gender identity and transition then. Later, I worked through this and also things like being scorned by straight friends when I came out to them. All part of life as someone that just does not fall within the societal norms.

Anyway- this could be a good topic area to discuss. A lot of complexity!!

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

I agreed with you on the "Trans or Butch as not more or less complex than one another".

Where I see us diverging is on the continuum issue.

Butches are not transmen. Nor, are we "cisgendered" (i.e. someone whose gender identity agrees with their societally recognized sex). Butches do not adhere to a gender binary even within the lesbian and gay culture. Butches are uncisgendered. To be linguistically consistent, one would have to say we're cisbutch.

Like the term women (i.e. not men), the term "cisgender" is commonly held to mean, not "Trans". I won't go into the inappropriateness of defining any group by what they are not - it should be obvious. Besides, POC have long since made the case for not being described as "non-white" as have Feminists for females not being defined as "non-males".

Originally Posted by Greyson

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman.

I get that. The inner contours of my life aren't all that different since I came into the fullness of my understanding of myself as a butch.

But, let's think about this continuum construct for a minute....

Butch isn't an a pre-"Trans" state for butches. Butch is the final destination. To speak of butch identity otherwise, is to (albeit inadvertently) create a horizontal hierarchy with "Trans" succeeding butch. People (you) may not intend to imply successionism or hierarchies, but placing butches and "Trans" on the same continuum does just that. It's how continua work.

Butch identity falls along a spectrum not a continuum. One butch isn't butcher than another.

I don't think butches and "Trans" follow the same trajectory. For instance, I don't think of myself as being in the wrong body. I think of myself as a butch in a butch body (cisbutch).

Originally Posted by Greyson

I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Having legal rights and privileges that lesbians and gays don't have is hugely different.

Originally Posted by Greyson

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

Of course, there is a difference between a Transman and a Cisgender man. Just as there are differences between being gay, straight, bisexual, trans, non-trans, butch, femme.... But let's be consistent in acknowledging those differences.

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

[Converse]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

[BullDog]

I am puzzled about the "not butch enough" being associated with transitioning since most who transition don't identify as butch.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

Well said, Converse. For me, it's never been about the "next stage" or becoming "other". It's always been about being more accepting of my cisbutch self.

Originally Posted by Converse

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

Butches are doubly pressured to be self-othering. First by dominant culture and its gender constructs, then by forces within the community with theirs.

Butches who succumb to this "othering the self/selfing the other", are doubly-colonized.

Damn, as if life wasn't hard enough.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

Rings true for me too- although, transitioning has honestly never entered my mind. Thinking there is just something "wrong" with me as a female human began at a very young age.

The whole "next stage" belief system is what really bothers me. We have arrived and that battle within the context of a very homophobic and misogynist society has been rough.

No, we are not cis-gendered at all- if we were, then why are we so often called "freaks"?

These are the very reasons that it is really important for butches to be able to talk about our identity as butches outside of any trans viewpoints sometimes. I say sometimes because I recognize that other butches were are/were indeed continuum- but not all of us are. It is just erroneous to put all butches on that continuum. It hurts, is dismissive and simply erroneous- causing as much damage to butches as myth and outright bigotry hurts and dismisses transgendered people.

It gets really difficult to feel like I am walking on a tight rope if I try to talk about being butch as my true state of being as a finished human being. I know that historically, there has been (might still emerge, unfortunately) some awful transphobic attacks on our own trans members stemming back to the dash site. That hurts me too because this is my home also and there are countless Transmen here (and Tran masculine butches) that are my friends and just people I care about and respect and would never put their journey down. In fact, seeing them find their way and having some happiness feels good to me.

I (and many other butches) have spoken to the positive aspects of varying gender theories that are finally flowing within society and in our small population. There is freedom in gender theory that applies to butches as well as transgendered and intergendered folks. And femmes that love them- and butches. I just want to accept this gift and find some peace and happiness. Hurting each other is just not part of that peace.