Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[weatherboi]

What is meant by femme normative? Would you mind expanding your thoughts on that please SelfMadeMan? Thanks in advance for taking the time!!!

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

What is meant by femme normative? Would you mind expanding your thoughts on that please SelfMadeMan? Thanks in advance for taking the time!!!

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender.

What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes?

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender.

What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes?

Nope - not at all. Again, I was referring to how others tend to perceive what is femme/butch/masculine/feminine - not how I see it. In my opinion, a person can wear jeans, combat boots, and a t shirt with no makeup and be one kickass femme. I also believe a person can wear make-up and be as butch as the next. I have been known to wear eyeliner... my whole point - and perhaps I'm just failing at finding the right words here - however, when I talk about societal norms and others' perceptions, I don't see how that gets equated to what I think/feel...

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks for clarifying SMM

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

You took that out of context - and I indicated (or so I thought) that I was talking about perceived norms (i.e. others' perceptions - not mine). I was pointing out that we - as a society - have a tendency to label others according to our own perceived norms... I don't label people and tell them how they should ID, nor do I attach norms to labels. My point was that because Stacy sometimes wears makeup, and dresses feminine, she gets labeled by others in the community as femme. Please point out to me where I said _____ IS what femmes are/do. I said it before but it obviously bears repeating... I am against labeling one another and against setting boundaries for what male/female/butch/femme'masculine/feminine means. By discussing others' perceptions/attitudes - does not make them my own.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

^ this felt like the 3rd degree to me, being that it was in reaction to a post I made in an attempt to show why we shouldn't label one another or attach norms to people... just sayin. And by "felt like" I am not suggesting that was the intention or a fact. I agree it isn't about winning - there's no competition. I came in to support everyone's right to be true to themselves without question. That's all. And no - niceties not needed, I don't feel victimized at all - hence the smiley at the end of what was just a tongue in cheek statement. I am sarcastic, I own it, and this time, perhaps just misheard, but I've been guilty before of not explaining myself adequately - it happens.

[weatherboi]

My post was a counter opinion to your post, not a reaction. I understand you don't believe in labels. I was trying to have a discussion about why people feel the need to construct "femme normatives/stereotypes" based around things like make up, dresses, high heels, and purses. It wasn't meant to be personal.

I just came back from a weekend where the "femme normative/stereotype" revolved around strength in numbers, being a femmes' femmes, and organizing(pulling off with grace) an event that rocked several lives and paved ground for future big things to happen.

See here even my words don't do the variety of femmes, and the coalition of energy they produce justice. That is all I was saying.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

My post was a counter opinion to your post, not a reaction. I understand you don't believe in labels. I was trying to have a discussion about why people feel the need to construct "femme normatives/stereotypes" based around things like make up, dresses, high heels, and purses. It wasn't meant to be personal.

I just came back from a weekend where the "femme normative/stereotype" revolved around strength in numbers, being a femmes' femmes, and organizing(pulling off with grace) an event that rocked several lives and paved ground for future big things to happen.

See here even my words don't do the variety of femmes, and the coalition of energy they produce justice. That is all I was saying.

Fair enough - no harm done - and the funny thing is - we're on the same side of this.

[BullDog]

I am a butch woman who fully embraces my masculinity (and no I don't have a precise definition for that, but it is very much a part of who I am). My relationship with my femme partner is very much a yin-yang, butch femme dance based on the contrasting energies of masculinity and femininity. It works for us. Of course that isn't the sole reason for our mutual attraction, but it certainly is a major piece.

I don't see how doing away with the terms masculine and feminine or coming up with firm definitions of what those terms meant would improve anything. I am confused. Then people will want precise definitions of what butch and femme mean.

My masculinity is not based on any heteronormative standards at all. I have had both female and male role models throughout my life. The way I present, carry myself and my inner sense of self comes from both.

Masculine does not equal male- that's been my rallying cry at online butch femme sites for over a decade. I will not be defined by heteronormative or male standards (although I do support my trans and butch brothers who do identify as male).

Masculinity does not equal male. Not in queer circles it doesn't. I believe that women who claim masculinity as part of themselves expand the possibilities of what women are and can be and that is very liberating to me.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

This is what I read into SMM's post as well. That he meant that there are certain stereotypes about butches and femmes, and that his wife doesn't fit the stereotype of femme/what is stereotypically expected of femme gender expression, not that he was trying to reinforce the stereotype. When he said "normative" I figured he meant that stereotype.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This is what I read into SMM's post as well. That he meant that there are certain stereotypes about butches and femmes, and that his wife doesn't fit the stereotype of femme/what is stereotypically expected of femme gender expression, not that he was trying to reinforce the stereotype. When he said "normative" I figured he meant that stereotype.

Thank you. I think my subsequent posts made it pretty clear that I don't buy into the norms/stereotypes... lol, I just love how I come in to support people's right to be who/what they want to regardless of societal norms and regardless of society's gender constructs and get the 3rd degree. Ah well, can't win 'em all

[SelfMadeMan]

Just for clarification... here's some of what *I* believe:

You can be born biologically female and ID as male and deserve to be respected as such (with or without medical intervention) and vice versa

You can be male or female (biologically or not) and be butch, or femme, or masculine or androgynous - or any other label that works for YOU, or REFUSE to be labeled - regardless of what anyone else thinks or assumes

You can be butch and wear make-up, wear anything that you choose - ANYTHING and still be butch and be respected as such.

You can be femme and wear jeans and steel toe boots and t-shirts, or ANYTHING else you choose and still be femme and respected as such.

You can be/do YOU - any way YOU choose, and not have to pick a label - just be YOU.

If you are TG and don't want to take hormones, and don't want to have your breasts removed, you are no less TG.

I believe everyone has the right to ID however they choose and say THIS is who I am - and not have to justify their identity to anyone. Period.

[weatherboi]

Uhhh nobody here is giving you the third degree. I asked for clarification with a thank you in advance. I am not sure if more niceties are needed than that for a forum conversation. I am not sure if the victimology you are owning about your experience is fair considering I asked for clarification and gave a thank you in advance. It is a discussion for me, it is not about winning, it is about learning.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you. I think my subsequent posts made it pretty clear that I don't buy into the norms/stereotypes... lol, I just love how I come in to support people's right to be who/what they want to regardless of societal norms and regardless of society's gender constructs and get the 3rd degree. Ah well, can't win 'em all