Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[Daywalker]

There are parts of the World that recognize and celebrate 3rd, 4th, and
5th Gendered folks. We could learn a lot in the Western World by studying
this 'phenomenon'; but we seem to be busy sweeping it all under the rug,
viewing it as a 'complication' or Taboo or as something that needs to
remain buried so that our laws, and ways can still function as is.

We can see how far that has gotten us.

[dark_crystal]

i kind of like the way gay men use the terms "butch" and "nellie" (despite the pejorative connotations of "nellie"). Those two words describe culturally queer concepts that have parallels with "masculine" and "feminine" but still stand apart.

"femme" is too close to feminine for this to work on our end

[1QuirkyKiwi]

Two-spirit - Masculinity/Femininity – Butch/Femme – Trans/Genderqueer are subject to interpretation depending on a person’s community, family upbringing and culture. Sometimes a ‘label’ needs to be used so that a person can explore who they are and identify their essences within themselves and the Gay community – a foundation in which to build, discover and explore their sexual identity outside of the external influences of life.

My Great-Uncle Hone had both the qualities/essences of masculine and feminine – he could fluidly move between the two when the situation called for it. Similarly my ‘Great-Aunty’ Richard (My Uncles partner of 43 years. As a 4 year old, I saw them as 'married' and it made sense that one was my 'Aunty') was, again fluid in his masculine and feminine qualities, only it was more obvious because if his upbringing – he was from an Anglo-Welsh family that settled in NZ in the late 1800s. His feminine qualities were deemed unnatural for a man to openly display without fear of ridicule from others. He would only ever show this side of himself to family and close friends.

Like myself, my Great-Uncle Hone was raised within the Maori culture, where there were traditionally no gender specific words. All children were/are taught the basics of cooking, sewing, fishing, harvesting, etc, there are specific activities that are seen as ‘traditional’ for men and women, yet, the qualities and essences of masculine and feminine are felt within – a pride of soul. ...... Mana; It is difficult to give Mana a single meaning in English…… A common explanation is to refer to it as 'status' or best to describe someone with Mana as having some sort of 'presence'.

My Mana and define myself as Femme, yet, I can fluidly move to use my ‘masculine energy’ in situations where I have to take more responsibility; such as at work or when a family member is ill and I need to care for them and maybe make decisions on their behalf…… For me, it’s a holistic approach to being vulnerable, having the strength, the patience and knowing my limitations, yet, always remaining myself 'feminine'. A resilience to whatever the heterosexual community throw at me as a Gay woman, I maintain my Mana and potential as best I can be with (hopefully) respect and humility.

Whatever label is used, complimenting roles and the balance between them is an important aspect.

This probably hasn’t made much sense – I know what I want to say, yet, putting it eloquently into words has escaped me…… If I could send it as a feeling, I would.

[EnderD_503]

First of all, just wanted to say thanks to everyone who replied. There are a few things I want to respond to, and won't respond to others right away as I want to develop my thoughts on those a little more.

Originally Posted by Slater

While it is interesting to look at the etymology of the words masculine or feminine, I don't think we need to feel too strictly constrained by original meanings. Language evolves as society evolves. Our culture is not the same as it was centuries ago so it is no surprise that our language needs to change along with it to reflect new realities and new understandings.

I don't see masculine and feminine as highly precise words and they depend on cultural context (which is going to be frustrating to someone trying to come up with a concrete definition). They get us in the neighborhood but they aren't by themselves going to get us to the very doorstep of someone's identity.

Except that we aren't just talking etymology within a historical context. The words "masculine" and "feminine" have very specific meanings, and especially if we're going to retain words like "man," "woman," "male" and "female" within our language, because they are directly related in modern societies. "Masculine" and "feminine" continue to be defined in the same way they were over 2000 years ago, in so far as they are still understood by the majority as "that which pertains to males/females."

However, if we continue down the train of thought you're expressing here, then it becomes necessary for me to ask you how you define "masculine" and "feminine," if you do not perceive them as related to the two popularly accepted sexes in any way. If you divorce "masculine" from certain characteristics attributes to cissexed males, how, then, do you personally define it?

Originally Posted by Slater

Finally, labels that are truly limitless are also labels that are useless. If it can include anything then it tells us nothing.

I don't think it's useless at all, actually. Quite the contrary. If we consider that certain labels related to sexuality and gender identity have been created out of necessity in response to heteronormative society's war on certain sexual acts and "gender" variance, and its creation of words like homosexuality/bisexuality/transsexual in order to define what they considered to be a psychological or moral disease, then the retaking of these labels becomes necessary. But we have to realise that these "diseases" and "characteristics" that they've created for us (that is still present in the DSM in order to "diagnose" certain "gender variant mental illnesses" today), are in many respects contemporary. They aren't fixed. To pretend that they are fixed, or that "all" of X identity possesses such and such a characteristic is unrealistic and inaccurate.

And that's where I see a bit of a contradiction in your post. On the one hand your saying that language is constantly change (which it is, and yet we still retain certain meanings to words, especially those related to areas of life, or perhaps social roles, which have very many similarities over time), and so we cannot define masculine and feminine as the Romans did. This much is true in that we do not entirely consider the same things as "manly" as the Romans did. However, we, as a society, do still consider "masculine" to mean "manly."

But back to the beginning of that last paragraph. On the one hand you're saying that language is ever changing, and on the other hand your saying that limitless labels are useless. And so how, then, are you defining "masculine" and "feminine" if you consider them to have changed from their original meaning? Do you believe that a butch or a femme is able to define their own form of masculinity or femininity? If so, how do you reconcile that with your argument that limitless labels are useless? Does this mean that butches or femmes who define themselves as masculine or feminine can only do so within a certain framework, before they've crossed the "limit"?

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

If we're talking hook up specific then somehow Femme, Butch, Guy, Girl, Boy Man have to be viewed as equal on the value scale and once again I say this that the binary hetrenormative expectations of what is feminine / masculine are erased it is then that fluidity and non gender confirmation will be accepted. If we're talking dating I have to say it's ridiculously hard to date because a Femme has to be like..

This is something that definitely makes sense to me, and kind of is what I'm starting to get into in this same post in response to Slater. But if that's the case, should we not be reserving the limited binary language related to "masculine" and "feminine" for our interactions with the heteronormative world? Yes, heteronormativity/heterosexism/cissexism still exists in the LGBTQ community, but it's still a community in which we can more easily discard the language we use to communicate with the "outside" world when communicating with one another.

But I agree, these expectations need to be erased before we can truly come into an age of fluidity where these words are no longer needed to communicate with certain portions of the population.

I still think that when communicating with one another, the language of the heternormative binary becomes unnecessary. At least in my opinion.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Two-spirit thought on gender has always struck me as a way to explore many of your thoughts and ideas here, Ender. Something that I have learned for myself is that fluidity in gender feels like "home." Fluidity in gender concepts and language, although terribly difficult to find in western thought, is right there in front of us in native cultures. This is true all over the world.

I disagree to some extent. I find, for myself anyways, that the North American Aboriginal concept of Two-Spirit is a bit inadequate for what I'm trying to get at. It still requires a spectrum where masculine lies on one end and feminine on the other. Man and woman/masculine and feminine are still presupposed, but instead of being exclusive to one sex, they meet within one person. But it still requires that duality.

The one area where the Two-Spirit concept has its advantage is that it is rooted in a culture that is largely an oral culture, and where the real history of sex/gender is not as verifiable through that oral tradition as it is in a literary tradition. All we can really do is look to archaeology and mythology.

Whereas what I'm trying to get at is the actual definition of masculinity to those who see it as divorced from its origin as that which pertains to gender role expectations of the cissexed male.

Originally Posted by Daywalker

There are parts of the World that recognize and celebrate 3rd, 4th, and
5th Gendered folks. We could learn a lot in the Western World by studying
this 'phenomenon'; but we seem to be busy sweeping it all under the rug,
viewing it as a 'complication' or Taboo or as something that needs to
remain buried so that our laws, and ways can still function as is.

We can see how far that has gotten us.

I think when we talk about 3rd/4th gender people being celebrated in other non-Western cultures we're being a little romantic. Yes, some cultures, like Thai culture, recognise other sexes and genders than just male/masculine and female/feminine, but their place within that culture is not exactly celebrated or even treated with respect.

But I definitely agree that Western society could learn from Thai/South Asian cultures' recognition of a diversity in sex and gender that are not dependent on the Western accepted "male," female," "feminine" and "masculine." Actually, Germanic society and other northern European societies did have similar concepts before the imposition of Christianity on northern Europeans (and even among the Romans and Greeks). It's unfortunate that 1500 years of Christian rule erased that. Maybe Western culture can reintroduce similar concepts by immersing itself in cultures like those in South Asia, which definitely recognise a pretty huge diversity in sex/gender/sexuality.


Thanks again to everyone who posted. I'm really interested in continuing to hear your ideas on this, so hopefully we can keep this thread going

[Slater]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

However, if we continue down the train of thought you're expressing here, then it becomes necessary for me to ask you how you define "masculine" and "feminine," if you do not perceive them as related to the two popularly accepted sexes in any way. If you divorce "masculine" from certain characteristics attributes to cissexed males, how, then, do you personally define it?

To me they have in them an element of role. The linkage to sexes is secondary to the linkage to a cultural role. Because gender roles have been so rigidly tied to a sexual binary, they are often regarded as synonymous. They don't have to be. As I said, I don't think there will ever be a satisfyingly concrete definition for either masculine or feminine, at least not one that doesn't rely so heavily on outmoded stereotypes as to be irrelevant. I think, for example, that most people recognize that someone can be athletic and still be feminine, or not be athletic and still be masculine. And are there really that many people who would argue that someone feminine cannot also be strong? I would argue that strength and athleticism are not inherently masculine characteristics. They are characteristics that can be expressed by masculine people or feminine people or people who are a combination of the two or who are none of the above. They are simply characteristics. It is how we express our characteristics, the cultural role we embody, that determines whether that expression is masculine, feminine, or something else.

And no, I don't think it is possible to nail down an exact definition of what constitutes a masculine role versus a feminine role, versus an androgynous role, etc. Because I don't think there is ever going to be precise agreement. That is why I said those words are only ever going to get us in the neighborhood of someone's identity.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

But back to the beginning of that last paragraph. On the one hand you're saying that language is ever changing, and on the other hand your saying that limitless labels are useless. And so how, then, are you defining "masculine" and "feminine" if you consider them to have changed from their original meaning? Do you believe that a butch or a femme is able to define their own form of masculinity or femininity? If so, how do you reconcile that with your argument that limitless labels are useless? Does this mean that butches or femmes who define themselves as masculine or feminine can only do so within a certain framework, before they've crossed the "limit"?

I don't see a contradiction between saying that language evolves over time and saying that for a label to have any utility at all it must, at a given time, have some sort of boundaried meaning. If for instance, we were to say that every person on the planet could reasonably identify as a butch because the label is limitless, then someone identifying as butch tells us nothing whatsoever about them.

Certainly there is nothing stopping someone from using a label in a way that is far outside any common usage of the term. But if they do, they won't be able to communicate much of anything about themselves in a way that can be understood by anyone else.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Slater

To me they have in them an element of role. The linkage to sexes is secondary to the linkage to a cultural role.

Then define the cultural role. What is it? What clearly defines butch and femme, masculine and feminine roles? You claim that these roles don't have to be attached to a binary, yet I've yet to see anyone demonstrate it by clearly defining masculine and feminine roles without some semblance of the traditional binary.

Originally Posted by Slater

As I said, I don't think there will ever be a satisfyingly concrete definition for either masculine or feminine, at least not one that doesn't rely so heavily on outmoded stereotypes as to be irrelevant. I think, for example, that most people recognize that someone can be athletic and still be feminine, or not be athletic and still be masculine. And are there really that many people who would argue that someone feminine cannot also be strong? I would argue that strength and athleticism are not inherently masculine characteristics. They are characteristics that can be expressed by masculine people or feminine people or people who are a combination of the two or who are none of the above. They are simply characteristics.

Yes, and that's why I'm saying that your statement that a label is not a useful label if it is limitless is entirely contradictory to the way you're using masculine and feminine in this thread. You appear to believe that masculine and feminine denote something, yet you've yet to clearly define what that "something" is.

It is the very fact that characteristics traditionally attributed to "masculine/cisgendered male" individual are not, in fact, gendered attributes that throw masculine and feminine out the window as anything other than limitless labels that some people choose to put on. If that weren't the case, then there would be a concrete and stable definition of masculine and feminine, beyond stereotypical gender roles. Instead, many redefine these terms for themselves, and few would challenge their self-identification. As such, these terms are limitless.

Originally Posted by Slater

It is how we express our characteristics, the cultural role we embody, that determines whether that expression is masculine, feminine, or something else.

How do you express your characteristics in a way that is masculine? What is that cultural role, and how is it defined? These answers are really beating around the bush instead of outright stating "such and such an expression is masculine because..." Unless a person is able to do that, then it is impossible to define "masculine" and "feminine" (unless we stick to their traditional, original definition).

What is masculine expression, specifically? What is feminine expression, specifically?

Originally Posted by Slater

And no, I don't think it is possible to nail down an exact definition of what constitutes a masculine role versus a feminine role, versus an androgynous role, etc. Because I don't think there is ever going to be precise agreement. That is why I said those words are only ever going to get us in the neighborhood of someone's identity.

Except that there have been systematic consistencies throughout the world's societies for centuries as far as what constitutes masculine and feminine, and these have not been defined by strictly Western early modern understandings of them. They go back much farther.

The very fact that you can't nail down an exact definition beyond "it's an expression" argues in favour of their being limitless and referring to nothing concrete in particular, if they do not actually refer to something specific, to a specific person. If masculine fits you, and you are willing to argue that the definition of masculine has some form of set boundaries, then explain where those boundaries lie.

Originally Posted by Slater

I don't see a contradiction between saying that language evolves over time and saying that for a label to have any utility at all it must, at a given time, have some sort of boundaried meaning. If for instance, we were to say that every person on the planet could reasonably identify as a butch because the label is limitless, then someone identifying as butch tells us nothing whatsoever about them.

What are the boundaries?

Originally Posted by Slater

Certainly there is nothing stopping someone from using a label in a way that is far outside any common usage of the term. But if they do, they won't be able to communicate much of anything about themselves in a way that can be understood by anyone else.

By that argument, then masculine and feminine are useless, limitless terms, since we don't appear to even know what they refer to. If we knew what they referred to, then we'd be able to state it outright.

[Cin]

I may not be able to find the verbiage to explain it; I may not be able to express it satisfactorily in language that doesn’t use characteristics and mannerisms defined as masculine and feminine, but I know butch and femme when they walk in the room. I also know it’s not society’s interpretation of masculine and feminine. It’s queered and perhaps that makes all the difference.

I’m not sure I understand what exactly you are looking for or trying to get at, but hopefully by asking for a little clarification it will become clear to me.

Do the words masculine and feminine define exactly what we mean when we try to describe queer identities? I think not. Can they be called something else? I suppose so. But old meanings die hard. Therefore if I keep asking you for a chain saw when I want an apple and you’re not aware of or clear about the new definitions, I don’t think I’m going to be happy with the results. I mean if we find another way of referring to what we mean when we say masculine and/or feminine aren’t we going to encounter the same limitations? Or are you saying we don’t mean anything at all when we say masculine and feminine? That the definitions are now so limitless as to have lost meaning? Or perhaps they never had meaning at all?

You said “all words don’t need to have precisely the same meaning for everyone, but in order for language to function we do need it to at least have something in common.” And you see masculine and feminine as have nothing in common with what we mean when we try to describe our identities? What new words are you thinking of to replace masculinity and femininity? Should we use butch and femme instead? And how will they have clearer meaning than masculine and feminine for queer and trans identities? How will butch/femme be understood outside of gender and without the use of characteristics or other descriptors?

You ask “what happens when these people participate in the butch/femme dynamic, if we see butch as strictly a masculine entity and femme as a strictly feminine entity.”
I don’t think everyone sees butch as strictly a masculine entity and femme as a strictly feminine entity.

I don’t agree that co-opting masculinity from heterosexual definitions of it are playing into society’s belief that we mimic heteronormative gender roles anymore than just being in a butch-femme relationship plays into their belief that we are imitating their heterosexual relationships. Besides, in the words of Rhett Butler, frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

You say you feel good about the reclaiming of feminine by many queer women because what pertains to women has been far too caught up with what heteronormative society has made it. But why not reclaim masculine as well? Is it not also far too caught up? Neither masculine or feminine is the sole property of heterosexuals. And really masculinity is so heavily and aggressively patrolled that I enjoy co-opting it for my queer identity. I like claiming woman and I like claiming both masculinity and femininity although heteronormative society is much more comfortable with my claiming masculine so they can sneer at me. They seem to find it unsettling when I claim woman and feminine. I’ve been told I look like I’m in drag if I sometimes dress in woman’s clothes. Too damn bad. Woman is as woman does. And I’m a woman. Just like feminine is however I am. And masculine is mine if I want it. And I want it. Nobody owns it.

I think I get some of what you are saying. What do i mean when I say feminine is however I am. How am I when I am feminine? How am I when I am masculine? What does that mean? Good questions. And I suppose descriptions of characteristics, mannerisms, leisure activities, and looks are not very satisfying. And energy is also rather abstract. But if you chose other words to define this, such as butch/femme, what words would you use to explain what is butch? what is femme? And if we don't need these terms then what terms do we need? If we don't need any terms at all then how will we talk to each other? What language will we use to navigate the space between us?

It sounds like you have given this some thought what have you come up with?