only another butch would understand

[Stoney]

I have been reading this thread and I wanted to mention a previous thread right in the beginning. Ol'Jet you said something about being de- masculinized.. ( forgive me if I am saying it wrong) I noticed quite a few people who felt that that was more or less a male ID'd problem. I wanted to mention , that many years ago I was in a relationship with this woman , ( who first represented herself as a femme but really wasnt ,anyways that's another story ) This woman was something else, the butch- femme dynamic in the relationship pretty much flew outthe window the day I moved in with her. that day, I left my home and friends, traveled over 600 miles,had no sleep for days, unloaded a 18 foot truck full of my stuff and my kids into a garage! plus the whole 9 hour drive in a uhaul ( on my birthday) well I just sat down after all that , and I cried.She walked in the bedroom and looked at me and said ' HOPE YOU KNOW k how much you are turnin me off right now, I dont think Ill ever feel the same about you. Some fuckin butch! If I wanted a femme I would have stayed with my ex.( even though I am female Identified I have felt that pain , maybe not the same way but It was a huge blow for some reason, and i was effected by those words deeply. I was always having to prove my " butchiness" with her .

the relationship was very short lived after that day

It messed with my head a long time after that relationship ended. and for a long time every time I cried, her words would resurface.

now I am who I am, I cry, I laugh , I Burp( alot and very well I might add)

now it seems crazy that I let those words hurt me so much and question my very being.. but I definitely had a different mind set back then.

hope this relates,

always enjoy your posts Ol' Jet!

Stoney

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Stoney

I have been reading this thread and I wanted to mention a previous thread right in the beginning. Ol'Jet you said something about being de- masculinized.. ( forgive me if I am saying it wrong) I noticed quite a few people who felt that that was more or less a male ID'd problem. I wanted to mention , that many years ago I was in a relationship with this woman , ( who first represented herself as a femme but really wasnt ,anyways that's another story ) This woman was something else, the butch- femme dynamic in the relationship pretty much flew outthe window the day I moved in with her. that day, I left my home and friends, traveled over 600 miles,had no sleep for days, unloaded a 18 foot truck full of my stuff and my kids into a garage! plus the whole 9 hour drive in a uhaul ( on my birthday) well I just sat down after all that , and I cried.She walked in the bedroom and looked at me and said ' HOPE YOU KNOW k how much you are turnin me off right now, I dont think Ill ever feel the same about you. Some fuckin butch! If I wanted a femme I would have stayed with my ex.( even though I am female Identified I have felt that pain , maybe not the same way but It was a huge blow for some reason, and i was effected by those words deeply. I was always having to prove my " butchiness" with her .

the relationship was very short lived after that day

It messed with my head a long time after that relationship ended. and for a long time every time I cried, her words would resurface.

now I am who I am, I cry, I laugh , I Burp( alot and very well I might add)

now it seems crazy that I let those words hurt me so much and question my very being.. but I definitely had a different mind set back then.

hope this relates,

always enjoy your posts Ol' Jet!

Stoney

I am so sorry you experienced this, Stoney. I don't know what causes some people to flip the switch like this. I will never get it after building up a trust, and thinking there is a very clear understanding about sexual-orientation and IDs. For me, the blow was that someone I loved, and who I never thought would stoop so low, did very much the same thing as we were breaking up. In that moment, it was as though I didn't even know her. Even though I went through this, it hasn't changed who i am. What has changed now is my complete lack of trust in getting involved. I will never—and i mean never—put trust in anyone again. The prospect of going it alone at 53, is not fun. But it is what it is.

[Corkey]

This Male ID'd Butch finds the whole premise divisive.
That is all.

[Stoney]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

I am so sorry you experienced this, Stoney. I don't know what causes some people to flip the switch like this. I will never get it after building up a trust, and thinking there is a very clear understanding about sexual-orientation and IDs. For me, the blow was that someone I loved, and who I never thought would stoop so low, did very much the same thing as we were breaking up. In that moment, it was as though I didn't even know her. Even though I went through this, it hasn't changed who i am. What has changed now is my complete lack of trust in getting involved. I will never—and i mean never—put trust in anyone again. The prospect of going it alone at 53, is not fun. But it is what it is.

Thanks for your comment and kind words on my post. I had a feeling you would get where I was coming from.
I am not sorry though that that happened, dont get me wrong, It f*cked with me for a while, but there were other factors in that relationship that really made me step back and say WTF am I doing here ?? why do I keep playing these games with people , I mean I knew she was playing it and I still didnt stop its like two people in a room looking at a huge purple girrafe but no one ever says anything they just keep acting , acting like they think everything is normal, just part of the script or something....


well The biggest reason I am glad that all that happened because it made me look at who I was compared to who I thought I was expected to be, The entire relationship basically was one lie after another, her lying to me and me lying to myself. Before finding a butch femme site I really didnt know there were " specific" types of butches, actually I didnt even know much about the whole B-F dynamic, cause most of the Gay folks I know arent really definable, I called em granola dykes, sporty dykes, kiki's tweeners, and they didnt have a clue, I mean I have alot of gay friends but virtually no self defined " butch - Femme" couples. jus' me... and that makes me weird, (just a little) around other couples. My friends when the rare ocassion arises they skirt around actually using the word. But when they do, it is always with an apology , like it is an insultlike " damn look at that , geez she is realllllllly butch and then look at me and say "no offense"?????????!!!......and its never like damn she's hot its more like ewwwwww, ya know what I mean?

Right before I got in that relationship I realized I wasnt
as weird as I thought , that other butches were like me , those who didnt want the same things reciprocated during love making. I remember reading about other butches who didnt want to take off all their clothes, who didnt want sex in the same way they gave it. I realized I was " stone".

That day changed my life, and so did the day she said those things to me, it took a little time and finally I realized that I was Trying to squeeze my self into a generic Butch definition and act in a way that I felt would reflect who I was.

I understand trust issues Ol' jet, yes I definately do,
but I honestly can say now I am no longer afraid to get involved, or "fall" in love anymore. I will not allow myself to be powerless over my heart, I have learned that I can make the decision within myself to love , or trust, or not.

I dont trust others to care for my heart, I dont trust them to make my life more meaningful, I dont trust the promises of Ill love you forever no matter what "(( NO MATTER WHAT???? )))) ( come on) I dont trust them to tell me what kind of person I need to be to keep ( or nurture) their feelings for me... actually I barely think about people Im with breaking my heart or cheating etc......or leaving me. I dont like liars, but......

Im glad that situation and others involving my heart and feelings have taken place because now..... I truly am free to be who I am , decide who I love , experience my bliss.

Not because I can trust others; because now... after all these years, I finally trust myself.

Create the life you want Ol' jet, we all play the game , act the part or whatever , but once we all realize we have the ability to pick and choose the characters or players, it is pretty darn hard game to lose. If you dont want to be alone, dont be, I mean, take that step, not with a huge futuristic plan in mind, not to look for a forever person, look for someone to share the day with maybe even decide to love em for a day..., then maybe the next and then maybe the next. one day at a time, you can love some one for a minute...not all love has to last forever .. (who the hell would want it to really?) someone who relies on another for their happiness......thats who.

Dont trust your heart with anyone but yourself.They have to worry 'bout their own, yours will always come in second. But love them the way you want to, for as short or as long as you want to.I never just " fall in love anymore..." I "step" into it stand with both eyes wide open, enjoy as much as I can for as long as I can . when its not fun anymore.....I can walk away.It is a good feeling to know you are the one in charge of your own happiness.

Much peace to you, Stoney

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Stoney

Thanks for your comment and kind words on my post. I had a feeling you would get where I was coming from.
I am not sorry though that that happened, dont get me wrong, It f*cked with me for a while, but there were other factors in that relationship that really made me step back and say WTF am I doing here ?? why do I keep playing these games with people , I mean I knew she was playing it and I still didnt stop its like two people in a room looking at a huge purple girrafe but no one ever says anything they just keep acting , acting like they think everything is normal, just part of the script or something....


well The biggest reason I am glad that all that happened because it made me look at who I was compared to who I thought I was expected to be, The entire relationship basically was one lie after another, her lying to me and me lying to myself. Before finding a butch femme site I really didnt know there were " specific" types of butches, actually I didnt even know much about the whole B-F dynamic, cause most of the Gay folks I know arent really definable, I called em granola dykes, sporty dykes, kiki's tweeners, and they didnt have a clue, I mean I have alot of gay friends but virtually no self defined " butch - Femme" couples. jus' me... and that makes me weird, (just a little) around other couples. My friends when the rare ocassion arises they skirt around actually using the word. But when they do, it is always with an apology , like it is an insultlike " damn look at that , geez she is realllllllly butch and then look at me and say "no offense"?????????!!!......and its never like damn she's hot its more like ewwwwww, ya know what I mean?

Right before I got in that relationship I realized I wasnt
as weird as I thought , that other butches were like me , those who didnt want the same things reciprocated during love making. I remember reading about other butches who didnt want to take off all their clothes, who didnt want sex in the same way they gave it. I realized I was " stone".

That day changed my life, and so did the day she said those things to me, it took a little time and finally I realized that I was Trying to squeeze my self into a generic Butch definition and act in a way that I felt would reflect who I was.

I understand trust issues Ol' jet, yes I definately do,
but I honestly can say now I am no longer afraid to get involved, or "fall" in love anymore. I will not allow myself to be powerless over my heart, I have learned that I can make the decision within myself to love , or trust, or not.

I dont trust others to care for my heart, I dont trust them to make my life more meaningful, I dont trust the promises of Ill love you forever no matter what "(( NO MATTER WHAT???? )))) ( come on) I dont trust them to tell me what kind of person I need to be to keep ( or nurture) their feelings for me... actually I barely think about people Im with breaking my heart or cheating etc......or leaving me. I dont like liars, but......

Im glad that situation and others involving my heart and feelings have taken place because now..... I truly am free to be who I am , decide who I love , experience my bliss.

Not because I can trust others; because now... after all these years, I finally trust myself.

Create the life you want Ol' jet, we all play the game , act the part or whatever , but once we all realize we have the ability to pick and choose the characters or players, it is pretty darn hard game to lose. If you dont want to be alone, dont be, I mean, take that step, not with a huge futuristic plan in mind, not to look for a forever person, look for someone to share the day with maybe even decide to love em for a day..., then maybe the next and then maybe the next. one day at a time, you can love some one for a minute...not all love has to last forever .. (who the hell would want it to really?) someone who relies on another for their happiness......thats who.

Dont trust your heart with anyone but yourself.They have to worry 'bout their own, yours will always come in second. But love them the way you want to, for as short or as long as you want to.I never just " fall in love anymore..." I "step" into it stand with both eyes wide open, enjoy as much as I can for as long as I can . when its not fun anymore.....I can walk away.It is a good feeling to know you are the one in charge of your own happiness.

Much peace to you, Stoney

WOW. What a great fucking post.

[I'mOneToo]

sorry, don't know how to multi quote but wanted to get both of these in. this is really long but i'll try to edit some thoughts.

Jet and Stoney, I'm really hearing the discussion that you're having between the tissues, laundry, and poodles.

People say and do crazy shit during breakups. We've all done it, we've all had it done to us.

If someone's switch flips off whether it's a direct attack on your ID or indirectly by choosing someone else the complete opposite of the way you ID, it's always going to hurt to lose that person. Because once she flips, she's as gone as a girl can get, as the song says. There's nothing you can do to change her course in life. The heart wants what the heart wants, and it doesn't want yours any more, and that's painful.

At that point, you *don't* know her any more. You can try to figure out where you went wrong, but there are too many factors out of your control to really know. The unpredictability of another's soul is an unknown. I think it's just pure stupid luck if people are compatible and can stay together forever. It takes a lot of work and if both can't meet each other halfway, it's never going to work. People think it should be easy, that love shouldn't be work or it's not really love. I believe the opposite. No one flips a switch in an instant, it happens over time. All the little things that weren't dealt with at the time it happened, move it infinitesimably downward and then *boom* out go the lights. Did it get suddenly dark? No, usually both parties ignored the obvious signs that the sun was setting on their relationship.

You're going to mourn the loss. And grieve over it, and gnash your teeth and shake your fist at god, the fates, or whatever. And one day you'll wake up and see that it's really her loss. She lost you, and you lost her but YOU haven't lost *yourself*. It's not you who changed so fundamentally. That is the day you can wake up and begin to move forward in life. You take stock of yourself and in doing so, you may realize she actually did you a favor because now you have an opportunity to choose a new life. And instead of having blind faith and trust in someone new, you've got these experiences that have tempered you and made you stronger. You can live now with your eyes wide open and ask the right questions and if you get the wrong answers you can trust YOURSELF to know that if it isn't right, then don't pursue it.

One of the greatest gifts is having enough life experience to know that you don't have to try to fit a square peg into a round hole any more. Nothing has to be forced any more. You're gonna be 53 whether its alone and angry or with a little bit of trust in yourself that you can use your wisdom to contain something besides mistrust and anger for the rest of your days.

Time is a friend, and an enemy. It's a friend when you've got lots of it on your hands and you can use it to allow your heart to heal. To pave the way to loving yourself enough to be able to love someone else eventually. It's an enemy when you make demands on your heart. Telling it that it's not getting you where you want it to go fast enough. That is how we end up rushing into things that are just wrong for us.

And so often, we confuse infatuation with true love. One or the other of us, or both. That's a malady of immaturity; that 13-year old crush we get. But we're not kids any more. That feeling may be what starts us up but can it get us through the long haul? That's where the work comes in. But before we're ready for crushes or anything serious, we have to grieve and heal.

I've been doing that for several months and now I'm taking some steps --well i took a giant step forward and then had to take a little step back and say, "you know, i'm not ready for a commitment." and that's okay. it is with her too. I've learned when I need to establish a boundary for myself and if the other person is not willing to respect that, then it's good to learn that right from the start. I have to value their boundaries in kind. I will never again compromise on my values, and boundaries are one of my most valued gifts that i give to myself and to others. If they don't want it, then they don't want me.

Guess in a long-winded way, I'm saying learn what your values are, and the ones you gained from your experience (no matter how shitty it was) may end up being some of the highest values you'll possess. That is a gift. She's never going to hand you a medal. You get that from inside yourself. It's your purple heart, earned the hard way -- that gift is yours. And it is enfolded in the petals of a long-stemmed red rose. That is what you will give to another, someday. That is, if you choose. Some may choose a solitary existence for the rest of their lives but going down a bitter and angry road will not bring any peace. Be at peace, at least, with yourself.

/end sermon

************************************************** ********
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jet
I am so sorry you experienced this, Stoney. I don't know what causes some people to flip the switch like this. I will never get it after building up a trust, and thinking there is a very clear understanding about sexual-orientation and IDs. For me, the blow was that someone I loved, and who I never thought would stoop so low, did very much the same thing as we were breaking up. In that moment, it was as though I didn't even know her. Even though I went through this, it hasn't changed who i am. What has changed now is my complete lack of trust in getting involved. I will never—and i mean never—put trust in anyone again. The prospect of going it alone at 53, is not fun. But it is what it is.
************************************************** ********

Originally Posted by Stoney

Thanks for your comment and kind words on my post. I had a feeling you would get where I was coming from.
I am not sorry though that that happened, dont get me wrong, It f*cked with me for a while, but there were other factors in that relationship that really made me step back and say WTF am I doing here ?? why do I keep playing these games with people , I mean I knew she was playing it and I still didnt stop its like two people in a room looking at a huge purple girrafe but no one ever says anything they just keep acting , acting like they think everything is normal, just part of the script or something....


well The biggest reason I am glad that all that happened because it made me look at who I was compared to who I thought I was expected to be, The entire relationship basically was one lie after another, her lying to me and me lying to myself. Before finding a butch femme site I really didnt know there were " specific" types of butches, actually I didnt even know much about the whole B-F dynamic, cause most of the Gay folks I know arent really definable, I called em granola dykes, sporty dykes, kiki's tweeners, and they didnt have a clue, I mean I have alot of gay friends but virtually no self defined " butch - Femme" couples. jus' me... and that makes me weird, (just a little) around other couples. My friends when the rare ocassion arises they skirt around actually using the word. But when they do, it is always with an apology , like it is an insultlike " damn look at that , geez she is realllllllly butch and then look at me and say "no offense"?????????!!!......and its never like damn she's hot its more like ewwwwww, ya know what I mean?

Right before I got in that relationship I realized I wasnt
as weird as I thought , that other butches were like me , those who didnt want the same things reciprocated during love making. I remember reading about other butches who didnt want to take off all their clothes, who didnt want sex in the same way they gave it. I realized I was " stone".

That day changed my life, and so did the day she said those things to me, it took a little time and finally I realized that I was Trying to squeeze my self into a generic Butch definition and act in a way that I felt would reflect who I was.

I understand trust issues Ol' jet, yes I definately do,
but I honestly can say now I am no longer afraid to get involved, or "fall" in love anymore. I will not allow myself to be powerless over my heart, I have learned that I can make the decision within myself to love , or trust, or not.

I dont trust others to care for my heart, I dont trust them to make my life more meaningful, I dont trust the promises of Ill love you forever no matter what "(( NO MATTER WHAT???? )))) ( come on) I dont trust them to tell me what kind of person I need to be to keep ( or nurture) their feelings for me... actually I barely think about people Im with breaking my heart or cheating etc......or leaving me. I dont like liars, but......

Im glad that situation and others involving my heart and feelings have taken place because now..... I truly am free to be who I am , decide who I love , experience my bliss.

Not because I can trust others; because now... after all these years, I finally trust myself.

Create the life you want Ol' jet, we all play the game , act the part or whatever , but once we all realize we have the ability to pick and choose the characters or players, it is pretty darn hard game to lose. If you dont want to be alone, dont be, I mean, take that step, not with a huge futuristic plan in mind, not to look for a forever person, look for someone to share the day with maybe even decide to love em for a day..., then maybe the next and then maybe the next. one day at a time, you can love some one for a minute...not all love has to last forever .. (who the hell would want it to really?) someone who relies on another for their happiness......thats who.

Dont trust your heart with anyone but yourself.They have to worry 'bout their own, yours will always come in second. But love them the way you want to, for as short or as long as you want to.I never just " fall in love anymore..." I "step" into it stand with both eyes wide open, enjoy as much as I can for as long as I can . when its not fun anymore.....I can walk away.It is a good feeling to know you are the one in charge of your own happiness.

Much peace to you, Stoney

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by June

I was drawn in here by the plethora of Poodles. I wish Dylan and I liked each other so he would send me one of his fabulous creations.

Maybe I'll etsy them? Although, I do like the personal experience of craft fairs at the mall


That Way Everyone Can Partake Of The Fruits Of My Nimble Fingers <insert crocheting/knitting/needlepointing/cross-stitching emoticon here>
Dylan

[nytangel]

Originally Posted by Stoney

I have been reading this thread and I wanted to mention a previous thread right in the beginning. Ol'Jet you said something about being de- masculinized.. ( forgive me if I am saying it wrong) I noticed quite a few people who felt that that was more or less a male ID'd problem. I wanted to mention , that many years ago I was in a relationship with this woman , ( who first represented herself as a femme but really wasnt ,anyways that's another story ) This woman was something else, the butch- femme dynamic in the relationship pretty much flew outthe window the day I moved in with her. that day, I left my home and friends, traveled over 600 miles,had no sleep for days, unloaded a 18 foot truck full of my stuff and my kids into a garage! plus the whole 9 hour drive in a uhaul ( on my birthday) well I just sat down after all that , and I cried.She walked in the bedroom and looked at me and said ' HOPE YOU KNOW k how much you are turnin me off right now, I dont think Ill ever feel the same about you. Some fuckin butch! If I wanted a femme I would have stayed with my ex.( even though I am female Identified I have felt that pain , maybe not the same way but It was a huge blow for some reason, and i was effected by those words deeply. I was always having to prove my " butchiness" with her .

the relationship was very short lived after that day

It messed with my head a long time after that relationship ended. and for a long time every time I cried, her words would resurface.

now I am who I am, I cry, I laugh , I Burp( alot and very well I might add)

now it seems crazy that I let those words hurt me so much and question my very being.. but I definitely had a different mind set back then.

hope this relates,

always enjoy your posts Ol' Jet!

Stoney

Stoney, thank you for posting this. I hate crying worse than anything. I am comfortable in my skin and with who I am, but crying still makes me sometimes feel less. I know that crying is a good release and its very emotionallly healthy to do this. But still that masculine part that dwells in my spirit gets so angry when the water works start. And heaven forbid if my girl can see them even in my eyes. It's not her that makes me feel less ... its me and my own perception / expection of and for me.

[Rockinonahigh]

Since my accident in 07 I havent had any kind of real job so I have made a fue bucks hear and there doing odd careting gigs,giveing rideing lessons ect.I got with this group that is run by the state gov and funded by the feds..sorta like an elder job placement group.I told them I had plenty of clothes to wear to work but they insisted that I go to dress for success..the problem is thay sent me to the womens part of it.I tryed my best to go to the mens dress for sucsess but no mater how I try to explane things to them it never worked,so I just went went along with it all cause I wouldnt be wearing them anyway..they r hanging in my colset and will be there a long time.Then they came up with this womens buisness club than meets once a month,then after the meeting u get more stuff.Where im intrested in the buisness concept of the meeting for the buisness world,I am feeling more and like im giveing up to much of who I am to gain this job.I need to work for many reasons so im just going to deal with it as best as I can ,but it still irks me big time.I hope I made scence with this.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Rockinonahigh

Since my accident in 07 I havent had any kind of real job so I have made a fue bucks hear and there doing odd careting gigs,giveing rideing lessons ect.I got with this group that is run by the state gov and funded by the feds..sorta like an elder job placement group.I told them I had plenty of clothes to wear to work but they insisted that I go to dress for success..the problem is thay sent me to the womens part of it.I tryed my best to go to the mens dress for sucsess but no mater how I try to explane things to them it never worked,so I just went went along with it all cause I wouldnt be wearing them anyway..they r hanging in my colset and will be there a long time.Then they came up with this womens buisness club than meets once a month,then after the meeting u get more stuff.Where im intrested in the buisness concept of the meeting for the buisness world,I am feeling more and like im giveing up to much of who I am to gain this job.I need to work for many reasons so im just going to deal with it as best as I can ,but it still irks me big time.I hope I made scence with this.

Rockin, I have been in this position. I think many butches, FTMs and others with a biological body that does not "match up" with the expected gender expressions, performance, appearance. It is easier said then done when you are trying to keep a roof over your head, food on the table and the other basics of taking care of yourself and maybe others. I have been to Shreveport and honestly I am not comfortable when I am there because of my gender expression, my obvious queerness. I cannot in good conscious tell you how to handle it. I have not had to live in your situation. I can tell you, I hear you and feel for your situation. However you decide to handle it, know that you are a human being of value and you are part of a larger community that reaches beyond the "norms" and values of Shreveport. Good luck.

[Corkey]

Rockin remember you are not your cloths, do what you need to keep yourself safe and employed. None of us are going to judge you, and those who do don't really matter.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Rockinonahigh

Since my accident in 07 I havent had any kind of real job so I have made a fue bucks hear and there doing odd careting gigs,giveing rideing lessons ect.I got with this group that is run by the state gov and funded by the feds..sorta like an elder job placement group.I told them I had plenty of clothes to wear to work but they insisted that I go to dress for success..the problem is thay sent me to the womens part of it.I tryed my best to go to the mens dress for sucsess but no mater how I try to explane things to them it never worked,so I just went went along with it all cause I wouldnt be wearing them anyway..they r hanging in my colset and will be there a long time.Then they came up with this womens buisness club than meets once a month,then after the meeting u get more stuff.Where im intrested in the buisness concept of the meeting for the buisness world,I am feeling more and like im giveing up to much of who I am to gain this job.I need to work for many reasons so im just going to deal with it as best as I can ,but it still irks me big time.I hope I made scence with this.

I think most butches/FtMs/etc. have experienced something like what you're describing at some point in life and can sympathise. I know I can understand that feeling you describe of giving up too much of yourself, and I think even those who don't id as such have had to endure that feeling at one point in life. Like others have said, deal with your situation as you think it should be dealt with. We all have to do the same. At the end of the day, staying true to yourself is what's in your mind rather than the unpleasant situations you have to endure.

[Rockinonahigh]

Thanks to all that replyed to my post,and I take your words to heart..Its just been a long time since I had to deal with this sort of thing..ya know I thought being it was now 2010 even hear, it would be a bit less of an issue..gess not.As far as my working situation It wont matter what im wearing to work cause im being issued a jacket to wear at work over whatever I have on wich will be buttondown shirts,and I am wearing dress slacks and appropreate comfy shoes.One thing I found intresting thrue all this was that they have a long full length mirror..well I havent seen myself in one for a while so I was surprised at the body changes from my work outs..I have turned into a weight lifters body so even with the exception of a bit to much belly is better than I had hoped for.