Butches and Body Image - Let's Talk About It

[musicman]

If a femme came to me and voiced that she is all that and a bag of chips and pepsi is what the hell you talking about, fuck off.

Once I settled down, my thoughts are this, you can never be good enough, you can never please someone like that. You're going to spend all your time trying to be what she wants you to be.In the end when you fail to meet her standards she is going to walk away and try and find someone that can.

It's my experience when a potential partner (either Butch or femme) yes there are butches out there that think they are all that and more as well. Think they can find anyone at a drop of a hat isn't going to take the time to work out issues in a relationship. I think we all know that it takes some work to keep a relationship going. There has to be some give and take, some understanding that we are not perfect and a work in progress.

There is nothing wrong with having self confidence in who or what you are. You just need to know we all are a work in progress.

In my opinion, when someone thinks they are hot shit,think they have lines of people lined up to bed them wake up one morning, looks in the mirror and realizes their still single.

[TimilDeeps]

There was a time when I was concerned with how my "butchness" was perceived by others (albeit that time was over twenty years ago) I've learned a lot since then.

When one decides that they will no longer conform to the societal expectations of how they are to act, dress, perform, eat, sleep, or fuck–then one becomes who they truly are.

So, I say to you, Alex; live up to your own expectations. Strive to meet your own standards and once you have, set the bar higher.

[girl_dee]

just a thought from this femme girl


if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.


just my humble .02

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

just a thought from this femme girl


if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.


just my humble .02

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

just a thought from this femme girl

if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.

just my humble .02

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

[TimilDeeps]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by TimilDeeps

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

YES !!! IT DOES!!!!

(to me anyway)


--Laughing-- the red lipcolor on a Butch, really bothers a lot of people

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

When I first met my partner, she kept repeating "but I am NOT a butch!" Yeah right. I could FEEL the butch, male energy rolling off of her. 'Bout knocked me over! It was how she walked (she had the swagger going on), how she talked, how she sat, how she dressed... yes it was all of that, but damnit it was WAAY more than that! It came from within her. It was a palpable aura and energy that was just HER. And the femme in ME, the woman in me who has loved on and lusted over butch women for most of my life, woke up, became ALIVE again. Skin-pricklies going on. Breath-catching going on. That inner recognition in ME, recognizing and connecting with the butch energy in HER, THAT is what caught me. Would I have had the same reaction if she had red fingernails or was wearing a dress? If her butch energy was strong enough, it might have triggered something in me. Don't know. I do know that for me, the outer package is just part of it. I need and desire and connect with and give myself to that butch energy. My femme wants to dance the dance with that butch energy.

I was so NOT trying to presume to label her as a butch that first night, and in talks we've had later. I cannot or will not label anyone, that is for them to do. She has told me though, that I am the first person that has truly SEEN *her*, and accepted *her* as she is. She IS a butch, but she is a *woman* too. HELL YEAH! (I told her that for ME, she is exactly what I was looking for... she has the butch side and the female side as well. I get to play with both! Woo-hoo!)

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

and I am being serious..........yes all of those things are butch when a butch wears/does them. There are plenty of butches who wear skirts and make-up to work every day. It's drag and we all wear drag of some kind or another every day.

-------------------

I cannot tell a butch (or anyone for that matter) what their process looks like when it comes to acceptance of the body we are born into.

I have always identified as a girl/woman and have never doubted that at all. The butch came later when I was in college. I knew I was a different kind of woman than what the TV/magazines/etc said I should be. It was the old bulldyke at the first dive gay bar I went to, who told me I was butch.

I was raised by women of pioneer stock. One of my grandmothers told stories about coming to NM in a covered wagon. All my women elders could do anything men could do and more. They all wore pants as well as dresses. I did not get that indoctrination of my greatest achievement would be in being a wife and a mother. I was lucky.....really lucky and I am always grateful to those women who provided examples of strong women whose worth was not defined by their husband and children.

Of course I was unsure about sex and my body.....everyone is. I was fortunate in finding femmes who helped me along with that....oh yes indeed they helped.....<grin>

I am never impressed with superficiality. never. ever. I understand there are femmes (and butches) who are superficial and I have a high radar for it. And I don't play in their playground. I don't want to be around anyone who is superficial.....there are plenty of other folks in this world.

I think I am rambling so I will stop.......

edited to add..........oh yeah......my only body image was I wanted to be 6 ft tall ...............5'8" is too short and I was a bit insecure about not being feminine enough but I outgrew that.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

Apologies for participating in the derail, but I do want to comment on this. I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity. That said, I don't think examining the ways in which butches may or may not choose to rock feminine drag is the purpose of the OP.

I'm really interested in how butches choose role models, especially while growing up. It must be extraordinarily complex. We're all bombarded with impossible ideals for feminine beauty, but for better or worse, there are virtually no media representations of butchness. How can/do butches, especially butches who grow up in relative isolation, make choices about how to present themselves? If that happens in isolation, it would seem like a minor miracle if eating disorders were not widespread amongst younger butches.

[clay]

Excellent post, Cheryl!
For me, I grew up with no role models,(until age 19-23) my butchness came from within..I was born with mine...I am a "rare" breed of butch...and I always danced to my own tunes. I walked to my own drumbeat! I never let anyone dictate to me who, what, how, where, or when I should be anything BUT me. It was very hard, growing up in the 60's...BUT I thank Woodstock, the Hippies, the age of the Flower Power people, and living in Hawaii for 4 years. The island of Oahu gave me so much..so damned much..it was a huge melting pot of some truly gentle peoples...the South Pacific Islanders...who were so gentle, so loving, so accepting of so many different "identities"
My role models were the survivors of the Stonewall beatings and witch hunts, the super human heroes of the Military who fought to ensure my rights while losing many of their own, and the awesome women such as Phyllis & Del Lyons, Radclyffe Hall (Well of Loneliness), the Marchers on Washington, and the others who followed..so bravely and gave their all..and made huge sacrifices....but I never dressed according to anyone's standards, instead as to how I felt comfortable. I am a sporty butch, if you will. If I wanted to wear combat boots, carry a heavy chained wallet in my back pcket, and chew tobacco.,..it was because I made that choice...NOT because someone wrote or said I should....or that it defined any gender or identity.
I never had any "gay" friends until I was in my late 20's. I came out at age 23 with a 36 year old femme...and the song "Help Me Make It Through The Night" by Sammi Smith lol..and I never looked back. I didn't know the words "lesbian, gay, queer, dyke" or such til I read the works of Radclyffe Hall and of course the Beebo Brinker series...lol...BUT it also never mattered to me..as I loved women and that was all I needed to know. I have never been a fan of labels..of any kind...and I HATE the word "queer" and "faggot"...I try to live and love my own terms and respect others. I have never made any apologies for who I am and how I am...nor will I. It is surprising how open minded I am, having been reared in the Deep South, in the Bible Belt, no less...BUT I always accepted folks for themselves, never was prejudiced in any way, and respected others! My family was quite the opposite. I was shunned when I came out, and I still lived and stayed true to my own self..I REFUSE to be told how I should live, love, dress, act, or anything else..it is my life and my chocies, on my own terms. I live my life on my own terms...and I am thankful to have grown up with some incredible pioneer role models...it is through the sufferings and humiliations of those before me that I am afforded the liberties and slow but sure rights we are gaining today.
My thoughts here are from my own perspective, and are not meant to "generalize" or to "compartmentalize" anyone...just my own .02!!!

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Apologies for participating in the derail, but I do want to comment on this. I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity. That said, I don't think examining the ways in which butches may or may not choose to rock feminine drag is the purpose of the OP.

I'm really interested in how butches choose role models, especially while growing up. It must be extraordinarily complex. We're all bombarded with impossible ideals for feminine beauty, but for better or worse, there are virtually no media representations of butchness. How can/do butches, especially butches who grow up in relative isolation, make choices about how to present themselves? If that happens in isolation, it would seem like a minor miracle if eating disorders were not widespread amongst younger butches.

[BullDog]

I am butch, I am female, I am a woman. I have never compared myself to males or used that as any sort of measuring stick for what butch is for me. Therefore I never come up short.

I do embrace masculinity- female masculinity. It is expressed through my energy, my appearance, my attitude and sense of self. It is a large part of being butch and who I am.

As to my body I would prefer not to have breasts, but I can live with it and do. Other than that I am quite fine with my female body.

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by claybaby

For me, I grew up with no role models,(until age 19-23) my butchness came from within..I was born with mine..."

I read "The Well of Loneliness" in my early 20s and it changed my world. It was my first exposure to female masculinity and my first exposure to the butch/femme dynamic. Later on in life, maybe late 30s, I happened to cross paths with a very butch woman who ended up bring vast amounts of wisdom and insight to my life under the rock

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

indeed it does

Who we are is not defined by clothes or fingernails

i am femme not matter what i wear, i feel the same goes for butches!

[AlexHunter]

I had more to say, but no time to sit down and write it until now.

With regards to role models, I was a very boyish kid. When people asked me who I wanted to be when I grew up, my reply was always, "I want to be a man!" This scared some adults. I thought I wanted to transition, so I looked up to the men who I found honorable. I definitely viewed my dad in high regard and wanted to be just like him. He treated my mom well and instilled in me the ideals of being a gentleman. I also looked up to the leading men in old movies because they were well-dressed, polite, and surrounded by ladies.

When I was 20 years old, I read "Stone Butch Blues" and felt I had many similarities with the narrator, Jess. She was an inspiration; even though she was a character in a book, she made me feel like someone "got it." I felt very third-gendered; not quite a man and not quite a woman - Jess called herself a "he she" and I called myself a "dude chick."

Like the young Jess, I, too, had a couple older butches take me under their wing when I first moved to DC and immersed myself in the gay scene. They both saw bits and pieces of themselves in me and were happy to talk to someone young, green, and sincere. I did not see them as role models per se, but I deeply respected them and enjoyed swapping stories.

I also see Ivan E Coyote as an inspiration.

I dated and pursued a few girls when I was a teenager. Most of them were "straight," so I felt definite pressure to one-up bio men. I thought I could treat a girl better than most of the guys (both in and out of the bedroom), though I was deeply saddened that I couldn't grow a dick and do what guys could. Once I bought my first strap on at 18, that insecurity went away. *Smirk*

I was sheltered from queer culture as a teen, so I found myself constantly asking, "Who would want someone like me?" and even crying about it. I was so excited when I discovered femmes. Having grown up around guys (weight lifting team in high school, was friends with all the jocks), I gained some of that typical guy mentality and wanted the hottest girl possible on my arm. In order to get the hottest girl possible, I put a lot of pressure on myself to look very good, too.

I have since realized the grave importance of intellectualism (sure, beauty and brains are both important, but an intelligent mind is what will keep me around). That is simply part of growing up. I have also gotten my fair share of compliments on the way I look, which made me feel compelled to keep things nice. The compliments have been a huge turnaround from what I was used to while growing up. I was pushed down the stairs in middle school for being an "ugly boy" and ridiculed throughout my youth for being different. The insults to my physical appearance as a kid scarred me. Frankly, I was not ugly. No. I was just different.

People fear what they do not understand.

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by AlexHunter

Frankly, I was not ugly. No. I was just different.

People fear what they do not understand.

Amen to both statements!!

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by musicman

If a femme came to me and voiced that she is all that and a bag of chips and pepsi...

LOL... My instant reaction to the idea of a femme saying such to me ... was "Yes, baby what can I do for you?" --I can play that game--

but seriously, I understand what you meant musicman.

I face the stereotype of 'what is Butch' almost every day.
I don't...(I hit an emotionalblock on this train of thought) so I'll rephrase it...
if I see a reflection of myself looking male... as I percive myself... it almost instantly triggers a reaction of "you don't measure up" ... I feel some shame that I don't have the upper body strength.. That I think I should have...

looking butch enought for a woman, is a particular issue I get passed, because I date/play with women who like a female presentation. so I am in drag anyway.

I get quite a bit of headshaking from other Butches. but so far the ones who have talked with me understand where I am coming from. but, I think it stills makes them uncomfortable. (that I am in drag)

came back to add: so far most of the responces have been, along the lines of "just accept who you are, and how you are and get on with it" ... I was thinking that the discussion was intended to be more on HOW to get over it. (with some details) and what does it feel like "in the process" ... very valid points for discussion.