Do you *want* people to assume you're a man?

[Ginger]

StephFromMIT,

I've heard people outside the GLBT community ask questions like, "If you like masculine women, why aren't you with a man?" or "Why do they dress like that? Do they want to be men?"

To me, your question, "Do you want people to assume you're a man?" is kind of in that category. It's a question I would never have thought to ask, myself, and have never heard one LGBT person ask another, so it really caught my eye.

Steph, have you known butch women (who were not trans), who wanted people to assume they were men?

It would be interesting to hear about that.

I have never known a butch woman who wanted people to think she's a man.

And so far, no one responding on this thread has said she wants people to assume she's a man, though some have said that when it happens, they aren't bothered.

Thank you for answering my question, above.

Scout

[Corkey]

Although I didn't say so in so many words, I would like to be seen for who I am, will it happen, more than likely not.

[Kelt]

Interesting thread

I am seeing two types of answers
a) what do we want
b) what do we get

Ok, a third
c) how do we feel about the match/mismatch between the two

I'm enjoying seeing the variety in the answers so far. I'll toss in my two cents with the up front codicil that I am only relating my opinion and fully respect the opinions of others that differ from mine.

What I want for myself is to just be a person. No gender label need be applied, no preferred pronouns. Just a person/human/being. A while back someone else coined the term gender-free and I like it. I happily answer to things like my name, or even "Hey you!"

Yeah well, we don't live in that world. What I get labeled by others seems to be as dependent on location as much as anything else. I noticed this especially on a road trip I took by myself last summer. Where I live now has a high percentage of gay population, very liberal politics, and folks are used to looking before speaking. I am usually addressed as female. When I was out driving through a variety different towns of varying sizes and political climates, mileage varied. I chose a route of "blue roads", two lane highways with some mid-sized and many small to tiny towns along the way. My experience was that the mid sized towns yielded the most blunder type incidences of being called Sir and if noticed we would just have a bit of a laugh. (I try to put people at easy and really don't care anyway). The small towns, pop. over say 1000, were where I encountered the most real confusion and the folks seemed defensive, even if I said nothing, and a couple of times I encountered open hostility. I found it interesting in light of that, the tiny towns pop. less than 500 down to 39, seemed to find my appearance totally normal. I think maybe because these were ranch and farm towns where everyone was in "work" (male) clothes and no one thought twice about it. Even my crew cut didn't phase anyone and I was referred to as female. Of course this only applied to this one person on a trip that only covered three states and one province.

So, for me it varies. As far as match/mismatch goes, they both kind of bother me because I don't see a need for assigning gender in general public settings. Is "Good morning miss, ma'am, sir, fella" somehow better or more appropriate than just "Good morning"?

Recognizing I am probably in the minority on this, just wanted to toss my hat in the ring.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Interesting thread

I am seeing two types of answers
a) what do we want
b) what do we get

Ok, a third
c) how do we feel about the match/mismatch between the two

I'm enjoying seeing the variety in the answers so far. I'll toss in my two cents with the up front codicil that I am only relating my opinion and fully respect the opinions of others that differ from mine.

What I want for myself is to just be a person. No gender label need be applied, no preferred pronouns. Just a person/human/being. A while back someone else coined the term gender-free and I like it. I happily answer to things like my name, or even "Hey you!"

Yeah well, we don't live in that world. What I get labeled by others seems to be as dependent on location as much as anything else. I noticed this especially on a road trip I took by myself last summer. Where I live now has a high percentage of gay population, very liberal politics, and folks are used to looking before speaking. I am usually addressed as female. When I was out driving through a variety different towns of varying sizes and political climates, mileage varied. I chose a route of "blue roads", two lane highways with some mid-sized and many small to tiny towns along the way. My experience was that the mid sized towns yielded the most blunder type incidences of being called Sir and if noticed we would just have a bit of a laugh. (I try to put people at easy and really don't care anyway). The small towns, pop. over say 1000, were where I encountered the most real confusion and the folks seemed defensive, even if I said nothing, and a couple of times I encountered open hostility. I found it interesting in light of that, the tiny towns pop. less than 500 down to 39, seemed to find my appearance totally normal. I think maybe because these were ranch and farm towns where everyone was in "work" (male) clothes and no one thought twice about it. Even my crew cut didn't phase anyone and I was referred to as female. Of course this only applied to this one person on a trip that only covered three states and one province.

So, for me it varies. As far as match/mismatch goes, they both kind of bother me because I don't see a need for assigning gender in general public settings. Is "Good morning miss, ma'am, sir, fella" somehow better or more appropriate than just "Good morning"?

Recognizing I am probably in the minority on this, just wanted to toss my hat in the ring.

Gets it, and has been saying for a few years, we're all Human, that's my label, the rest is how I see myself, not how the world sees me.

[Hack]

What is always interesting to me when I am called "sir," which I don't mind at all, btw, is when the person goes to correct him- or herself, they immediately say, "Oh, it was the haircut." I just nod and grin and assure them, "It's ok." But I always think...you had time to study my hair and assume I am male (and that's cool), but what then tipped you off I wasn't? Maybe I should start asking.

Hmmmm.

[BullDog]

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.

Ami stares back at them and will yell Boo! LOL stops them dead in their tracks. They often plow into other things n people, it's hilarious to watch!

[Parker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.

Oh god, the staring .... I sometimes wonder if they realize how rude they are being by staring or if they are so preoccupied with wondering "what" I am that they dont even notice their behavior.

[Bard]

I know what I am I am a woman a strong Butch woman yes I get the stares at time and get called sir and don't get me started on the bathroom issues lol I scare little old ladies... My daughter however does not find it funny she has been known to stamp her little foot and say "that's my MAMA" and the guys I work with get very upset when we are in a stop or dealing with a suspect and they call me sir.. they are protective

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.

,,,,,im glad you chuckled, so many people butches and transguys get angry when people stare or do a double take - i just see it that if you look different (in any way) or people arent sure what to make of you, people are naturally curious, staring is rude of course but before I passed as male, lots of people stared and i just used to smile back because i understood.
I had one incident where a guy actually stopped me and told me when I was very much looking like a woman in a suit and tie, which i never wear now, he said "you look fabulous" - which was a lovely thing to say and i appreciated it at a time when I was trying to find my way in the gender confusion I was experiencing - I used to wear suit, tie and - wait for it - "makeup"!!! Dont you just love the mascara...lol!
http://

BIG DIFFERENCE NOW- no suit and NOOOOOOOOOO makeuphttp://

[Sweet_Amor_Taino]

I am not a man although I dress male nothing feminine ever !! My mannerism is male. My energy is strong but gentle.
My femme and I enjoy the butch femme dance. Women and man.

I probably when off track but while out in the public if I am referred to as Mr.
I am not offended and once they see I am a women they apologies and I respond it's OK.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

StephFromMIT,

I've heard people outside the GLBT community ask questions like, "If you like masculine women, why aren't you with a man?" or "Why do they dress like that? Do they want to be men?"

To me, your question, "Do you want people to assume you're a man?" is kind of in that category. It's a question I would never have thought to ask, myself, and have never heard one LGBT person ask another, so it really caught my eye.

Steph, have you known butch women (who were not trans), who wanted people to assume they were men?

It would be interesting to hear about that.

I have never known a butch woman who wanted people to think she's a man.

And so far, no one responding on this thread has said she wants people to assume she's a man, though some have said that when it happens, they aren't bothered.

Thank you for answering my question, above.

Scout

Just a point of semantics not all male-ID'd butches identify as trans (gender/sexual), and yet they may still feel more male than female.

The ID: genderqueer is a good example, and there are many others.

There are as many variations as there are individuals, and along with that, I expect a spectrum of feelings/beliefs/preferences as regards how they are perceived and addressed by the public, by the queer community, by their families, and their co-workers, and their peers, and their partners -- one butch might, in fact, have a variety of different preferences when it comes to IF they are perceived as a man or not, even some female-ID'd butches.

I feel as though your question is rooted in the binary, and that may be *your* experience and *your* peers' experience of butch identity...but I don't think "a butch does not want to be seen as a man" is a truism that applies to all non-trans butches.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Just a point of semantics not all male-ID'd butches identify as trans (gender/sexual), and yet they may still feel more male than female.

The ID: genderqueer is a good example, and there are many others.

There are as many variations as there are individuals, and along with that, I expect a spectrum of feelings/beliefs/preferences as regards how they are perceived and addressed by the public, by the queer community, by their families, and their co-workers, and their peers, and their partners -- one butch might, in fact, have a variety of different preferences when it comes to IF they are perceived as a man or not, even some female-ID'd butches.

I feel as though your question is rooted in the binary, and that may be *your* experience and *your* peers' experience of butch identity...but I don't think "a butch does not want to be seen as a man" is a truism that applies to all non-trans butches.

Thanks, Sparkle, for your post.

I didn't mean to imply that all male-ID'd butches are trans. I'm not new to the b-f world or the GLBT world, etc. I've dated all kinds of butches and also dated transguys at many different levels of transitioning, including one with top and bottom surgery—not that those experiences mean I am not ignorant of the things you are explaining to me.

And no, I'm so not rooted in the binary.

Clearly my post was disastrously unclear, and did not accomplish what I was hoping it would, but you responded so thoughtfully, and I appreciate it.

[Corkey]

There's a thread called "Bravehearts----" started by Linus, for those of us who are not transitioning. I think that male id'd guys like me are not always going to transition, we're still Butch some of us, some are genderqueer, some Transgendered and not in transition. We're all still human with human needs and feelings.