Do you *want* people to assume you're a man?

[Sweet_Amor_Taino]

I am not a man although I dress male nothing feminine ever !! My mannerism is male. My energy is strong but gentle.
My femme and I enjoy the butch femme dance. Women and man.

I probably when off track but while out in the public if I am referred to as Mr.
I am not offended and once they see I am a women they apologies and I respond it's OK.

[Electrocell]

Originally Posted by stephfromMIT

Fair enough. When it happens, and it doesn't happen often, I just gently correct them, by telling them my name.

LOL my first legal name is Cynthia yet when I went to get my 1st drivers license they put male on it. Had that corrected moved to NM and exchanged TN license for NM they put male on it just left it that way until I moved to Utah I believe.

[Electrocell]

Kinda the way I feel doesn't bother me either way.

Originally Posted by stone4play

I am continuously mistaken for male.... until they see my chest area. Then they backstep and apologize and blah blah blah. I don't dress nor act the part to be seen as male. I am me and I walk the streets as the person that I am comfortable being. If this is what most perceive to be male, then there ya go.... It doesn't bother me in the least to be called sir, buddy or male. I answer to any of it. I leave the interpretation of what is seen to the individual. If it makes the other person more comfortable to see me as male then fine, or female then fine. I know I am a female. I know I appear to be male.

Do I "want" people to assume I am a man? It really doesn't bother me in the least. I've never felt icky about it or bad, sad angry, in fact there are times it feels kinda good. Actually more often than not (when it happens).

[Tcountry]

In my own little world it all depends on context...
Every day with my jeans, boots & bandana ..it could go either way & for the most part I just get the double take looks.
Sometimes checking out of a store, I get the deer in the headlight look when they say "here's Ur change sir" & I just give the a warm smile & say thank u (totally non-masculine voice)...
But when I dress up button up & tie & take an elegantly dressed lady to a nice dinner ...I Like the "sir" in fact I even tip them better than usual...I guess to me it is showing that they understand or at least respect that we are on a date& we will be treated as well as any other couple on a date...no less ....


*tip hat*

[jac]

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

[stephfromMIT]

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

[Electrocell]

Originally Posted by stephfromMIT

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

Well when you get into the real world to work and such it will continue to happen believe me lol.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by stephfromMIT

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

There's a thread for that!


"http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1528][/URL]

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

StephFromMIT,

I've heard people outside the GLBT community ask questions like, "If you like masculine women, why aren't you with a man?" or "Why do they dress like that? Do they want to be men?"

To me, your question, "Do you want people to assume you're a man?" is kind of in that category. It's a question I would never have thought to ask, myself, and have never heard one LGBT person ask another, so it really caught my eye.

Steph, have you known butch women (who were not trans), who wanted people to assume they were men?

It would be interesting to hear about that.

I have never known a butch woman who wanted people to think she's a man.

And so far, no one responding on this thread has said she wants people to assume she's a man, though some have said that when it happens, they aren't bothered.

Thank you for answering my question, above.

Scout

Just a point of semantics not all male-ID'd butches identify as trans (gender/sexual), and yet they may still feel more male than female.

The ID: genderqueer is a good example, and there are many others.

There are as many variations as there are individuals, and along with that, I expect a spectrum of feelings/beliefs/preferences as regards how they are perceived and addressed by the public, by the queer community, by their families, and their co-workers, and their peers, and their partners -- one butch might, in fact, have a variety of different preferences when it comes to IF they are perceived as a man or not, even some female-ID'd butches.

I feel as though your question is rooted in the binary, and that may be *your* experience and *your* peers' experience of butch identity...but I don't think "a butch does not want to be seen as a man" is a truism that applies to all non-trans butches.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by CharmingButch25

I apologize if that reference offended you , I didn't realize but I dont like them being called that either I just didn't know what else they are called, tank tops I guess hope that's better , id take the reference out of my post but cant from my phone.

The official name for those shirts is A Shirt. I always cringe when I hear them being called the more common name, and I do wish people would stop using it, but most people will have NO idea what you're talking about when you say "A Shirt".

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Just a point of semantics not all male-ID'd butches identify as trans (gender/sexual), and yet they may still feel more male than female.

The ID: genderqueer is a good example, and there are many others.

There are as many variations as there are individuals, and along with that, I expect a spectrum of feelings/beliefs/preferences as regards how they are perceived and addressed by the public, by the queer community, by their families, and their co-workers, and their peers, and their partners -- one butch might, in fact, have a variety of different preferences when it comes to IF they are perceived as a man or not, even some female-ID'd butches.

I feel as though your question is rooted in the binary, and that may be *your* experience and *your* peers' experience of butch identity...but I don't think "a butch does not want to be seen as a man" is a truism that applies to all non-trans butches.

Thanks, Sparkle, for your post.

I didn't mean to imply that all male-ID'd butches are trans. I'm not new to the b-f world or the GLBT world, etc. I've dated all kinds of butches and also dated transguys at many different levels of transitioning, including one with top and bottom surgery—not that those experiences mean I am not ignorant of the things you are explaining to me.

And no, I'm so not rooted in the binary.

Clearly my post was disastrously unclear, and did not accomplish what I was hoping it would, but you responded so thoughtfully, and I appreciate it.

[Corkey]

There's a thread called "Bravehearts----" started by Linus, for those of us who are not transitioning. I think that male id'd guys like me are not always going to transition, we're still Butch some of us, some are genderqueer, some Transgendered and not in transition. We're all still human with human needs and feelings.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

How I feel as a partner....
When my partner reacts to the assumptions with easy and even humor I relax. In general I feel protective of my sweeties feelings and wish them to be seen how they feel. I am not one that is good at in the moment corrections of other peoples behavior. I will give a touch that says "I know who you are" in the moment.

Beyond being assumed male by strangers or in passing... I support how the person wants to handle it.

[starryeyes]

Originally Posted by stephfromMIT

Island-I have many Militia teamates who are butch, though I don't think they male ID.

Do you talk do your butch teammates? Seems you may need some sense of community. Make some friends and find out who you are and where you fit! We are great people here and you will learn bunches, but real life community connections are equality important.

Good luck.

[Lazy Daze]

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by Lazy Daze

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.

Not to highjack....

I am grateful that Stoney is so gracious, patient and kind about how people experience who Stoney is. This is not easy nor is it Stoney's job to be so patient with folks. People don't get it quickly when gender presentation isn't binary. I have experienced that my friends want to be respectful and use the right "pronoun" and even understand. And the patience gives them space to formulate their questions. I find questions can lead to understanding.

Specifically related to Stoney... my experience of hym is that hy values people getting to know hym. The pronoun matters not. Hy lets people get to know hym and expresses (looks, says, dresses, etc...) as hymself with out reservation.

Now of course I use hy when referencing Stoney on the planet but that is what we've talked about.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

my partner identifies as butch and male (he is trans). he lived as a butch woman for a long time before transitioning. now he doesn't pass and it is a huge problem for him that he is constantly misgendered - it's really upsetting to him.

i'm a pretty protective person and i have a lot of friends who are trans*, genderqueer, or who otherwise don't fit gender norms. i tend to be pretty assertive about other people respecting the ids and pronoun choices of all the people in my life (and sometimes that means having to be patient and explain or educate, which i don't like having to do but i will). that means if someone i am with doesn't id as male and is perceived as male, i would politely try to correct or remind the other person that they are or support the person i am with doing that, if they are comfortable addressing it. same with if the person i am with is perceived as female and doesn't id that way, or ids as something else altogether. i respect the choices of the person i am with too...i know it's not my "job" to swoop in and save anyone - but i also know that for a lot of my friends it's helpful to have allies who will step in and correct people or say that's not okay, so they don't always have to be the ones doing it.

i'm the same way with my partner. i will correct people and confront them if they try to start any shit about it, although i try to respect that he worries about my safety and doesn't want to put me in a situation where that might lead to things being unsafe.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

for *me* i don't like it. i want to be a visible femme with my female butch partner.

[Hack]

What is always interesting to me when I am called "sir," which I don't mind at all, btw, is when the person goes to correct him- or herself, they immediately say, "Oh, it was the haircut." I just nod and grin and assure them, "It's ok." But I always think...you had time to study my hair and assume I am male (and that's cool), but what then tipped you off I wasn't? Maybe I should start asking.

Hmmmm.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

My partner is a she, is identified as a she and is referred to as a she. But, really, it's not about me and what i feel. It's about how my partner feels.

If someone mistakenly called her he (which i've never seen happen) she would be the one to straighten them out. And rather quickly i would think.

If for some reason she couldn't speak, i would be happy to straighten them out. I wouldn't have a problem doing that either.