Do you *want* people to assume you're a man?

[Lazy Daze]

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by Lazy Daze

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.

Not to highjack....

I am grateful that Stoney is so gracious, patient and kind about how people experience who Stoney is. This is not easy nor is it Stoney's job to be so patient with folks. People don't get it quickly when gender presentation isn't binary. I have experienced that my friends want to be respectful and use the right "pronoun" and even understand. And the patience gives them space to formulate their questions. I find questions can lead to understanding.

Specifically related to Stoney... my experience of hym is that hy values people getting to know hym. The pronoun matters not. Hy lets people get to know hym and expresses (looks, says, dresses, etc...) as hymself with out reservation.

Now of course I use hy when referencing Stoney on the planet but that is what we've talked about.

[jac]

Originally Posted by spritzerJ

Not to highjack....

I am grateful that Stoney is so gracious, patient and kind about how people experience who Stoney is. This is not easy nor is it Stoney's job to be so patient with folks. People don't get it quickly when gender presentation isn't binary. I have experienced that my friends want to be respectful and use the right "pronoun" and even understand. And the patience gives them space to formulate their questions. I find questions can lead to understanding.

Specifically related to Stoney... my experience of hym is that hy values people getting to know hym. The pronoun matters not. Hy lets people get to know hym and expresses (looks, says, dresses, etc...) as hymself with out reservation.

Now of course I use hy when referencing Stoney on the planet but that is what we've talked about.

I was sleeping but woke with this post in the forefront of my mind and wanted to elaborate on it a little bit.

I absolutely appreciate that my Spritz sees it as not my "job to be patient with folks." In some ways I totally agree and in other ways, I like to think that I do have a role in being patient and educating others with something they don't understand or are struggling with to accept. I'm a rather complex individual, ya know, and even knowing me personally requires one to understand me wholly.

I can be a rather sarcastic person but, for the most part, it's in play and with those that already know me. Those that can appreciate my sense of humor. Or at least tolerate it. If someone on the street looks at me with a questioning look/stare I don't take offense, I just smile to ease the tension and confussion. If it persists I greet them with hello and go about my business. This is the person they need to see and appreciate... Me, the kind and respectful individual that acknowledges them for being an active member of my day.

I believe that everyone is brought into our day for a reason. I also believe that prior to coming to this Earth plane it was agreed upon that I and you, and you and you (generalized) would have our interaction and it would go in such n' such a way. Lessons will be learned. You, the individual, will be an asshat and I will deal with it... because without this interaction how am to know and appreciate a more loving and respectful interaction if I don't know the opposite. (Guess this is all for another thread.... sorry... rambling)

Anyway, should someone question or ask about who I am and why I am and what, and where, and when and and and... I answer their questions... with compassion. And if I walk another block and it happens again... I answer again and again and again. It truly doesn't bother me for people to question and ask... and nine times out of ten they walk away satisfied with the answers and a smile on their face as I say to them - have a nice day!

It's really just that simple...

[Mrs Arcstriker]

Arcstriker told me about this thread but was afraid to post to it after our last flap...

That said, and I can speak for my husband...he doesn't WANT to pass as male, it just happens. He cannot help who he is anymore than I can help who I am. In the end, we both just want to be judged by our character.

I love that he passes as male, because that is what turns me on...but make no mistake about this...I KNOW exactly who he is and how he was born, and that just makes him sexier to me.

[Bleu]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I was sleeping but woke with this post in the forefront of my mind and wanted to elaborate on it a little bit.

I absolutely appreciate that my Spritz sees it as not my "job to be patient with folks." In some ways I totally agree and in other ways, I like to think that I do have a role in being patient and educating others with something they don't understand or are struggling with to accept. I'm a rather complex individual, ya know, and even knowing me personally requires one to understand me wholly.

I can be a rather sarcastic person but, for the most part, it's in play and with those that already know me. Those that can appreciate my sense of humor. Or at least tolerate it. If someone on the street looks at me with a questioning look/stare I don't take offense, I just smile to ease the tension and confussion. If it persists I greet them with hello and go about my business. This is the person they need to see and appreciate... Me, the kind and respectful individual that acknowledges them for being an active member of my day.

I believe that everyone is brought into our day for a reason. I also believe that prior to coming to this Earth plane it was agreed upon that I and you, and you and you (generalized) would have our interaction and it would go in such n' such a way. Lessons will be learned. You, the individual, will be an asshat and I will deal with it... because without this interaction how am to know and appreciate a more loving and respectful interaction if I don't know the opposite. (Guess this is all for another thread.... sorry... rambling)

Anyway, should someone question or ask about who I am and why I am and what, and where, and when and and and... I answer their questions... with compassion. And if I walk another block and it happens again... I answer again and again and again. It truly doesn't bother me for people to question and ask... and nine times out of ten they walk away satisfied with the answers and a smile on their face as I say to them - have a nice day!

It's really just that simple...

Thank you, that was truly beautiful to read.

[BullDog]

There are a lot of great posts, awesome conversation!

Like Parker said, one of the main reasons many butch women do want to be seen as women is because when we are not, our type of woman is invisible. There are many ways to be woman and we would like that to be seen. You can't control how someone is going to perceive you and that's ok, but we stretch the definition of what woman is and can be. Many of us also do want to be treated as women because that is what we are.

I don't really have the issue of passing as male and I am happy about that. If people do think I am, it is usually just a temporary mistake. If someone calls me sir at the grocery store or something I don't tend to correct them, I just let it slide.

Sometimes kids will ask me if I am a boy or girl (they tend to use that rather than man or woman). I will smile and say girl. You see them thinking and that makes me smile. They don't really care either way, they are just curious. If they do call me he and we are friends, I don't correct them. They find their own way just fine.

I do agree with Kelt that I would prefer our society wasn't so rigidly gendered. Why does it matter if a store clerk says ma'am or sir? Why do we have to have an F or M on our driver's license? Why do people get so extremely uncomfortable if they can't tell right away if someone is female or male?