Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[Dance-with-me]

But I am not assuming that everyone is gender phobic - there is no reason to generalize everyone by the vocalized anti-butch sentiment of others. I am assuming that in this particular meetup group of several hundred women, there are some who are not gender phobic - who perhaps are even butch or femme, or are interested in the topic. Who have perhaps heard much of the anti-butch/femme crap and not known what to say.

[Corkey]

If in the "hundreds of lesbians" you find even a handful of Butches and Femmes who claim that gender identity for themselves you will have found a minority. The vocalized anti Butch Femme is something to pay attention to, because those are the genderphobic, I never said all of them were. Personally I have no time for those types of people.
Butch and Femme are a minority in a minority. I wouldn't say anything to people who are anti any group, I just wouldn't associate with them. Under my breath I may say a whole shipload of stuff, but I tend to ignore those who show their a@@'s publicly.

[Dance-with-me]

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

I am in that un diversified boat of a town. That's why I said invite them here. I don't have any choice, it's either here or nowhere. I don't associate with people who are genderphobic, that's a personal choice. And in this town here is all I have.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

I'm wondering about why you feel so determined to be a part of this group of people??

I understand how it is to not have any *like* people around. We live in lower Alabama. We have either people who are gay who don't "approve" of us or straight people who don't "approve" of us. We stick with people who DO "approve." All our interactions of a personal matter are with straight people who have grown to know and love us for individuals. I mean, we know NOBODY here that is gay, of any gender. But that's ok......for US.

Do you need to be a part of this group?? Could you maybe find a few people who you click with and start with that? I understand wanting to change how people view things but I've learned that when I come in *trying* to change hearts and minds, it never works. Feelings get hurt and usually they are mine.

I try to find individuals and connect one on one. Maybe you could try to start smaller. If you keep putting yourself out there, and be true to who you are, you might just make more progress than you'd think. One of our best friends is a man who used to be a high ranking KKK member. By spending time with us, he's had some sort of awakening. He's our biggest chearleader and protector. All we did was speak our truth and we now have a serious supporter and a voter for gay marriage.


Don't try so hard. Unless for some reason you HAVE to. It would make me exhausted to try to change all those minds. PHEW!


Take Care,
julie

[Martina]

I think it's a perfectly good choice to want to hang out with other dykes or non-butch-femme queer folk. It does require some educating. *yuck*

But I have had to do that with straight people re queer stuff and with queer and straight people re leather stuff.

I find leather people to be, in general, cooler about gender. I have to admit that non-butch-femme leather dykes do tend to be more judgmental even though they see butch and femme all over the place. That's my personal experience.

I had a bisexual Dominant who was much cooler about gender than a dyke Domme. I was wearing more make-up and jewelry back then, and she wanted me to not wear it because it didn't please her. That was entirely fair given our connection. BUT it didn't please her because she thought of femininity as pandering to men, as something shameful. A proud woman, in her mind, did not need that stuff. It's hard to educate from below, and I am not sure I did. That relationship did not last long.

AND as a femme who doesn't do much dressing up or wear much make-up or jewelry, I have gotten WAY WAY WAY more shit from my butch-femme community than I have from straight folks. And that hurts a hell of a lot more.

So, it seems to me there's always a battle.

Anyway, I totally totally get wanting to be among queer folk.

[Dance-with-me]

My motives are far more self-serving than to just attempt to educate the hostile.

It's about wanting to be among queer folk in my community. I am part of some fantastic online communities - and am beginning to count this one among those. And I have made some life-long and deep, lasting friendships among people that I've met online. But online and long-distance doesn't give you someone to play cards with on Saturday nights, or go out to dinner on your birthday, or help you move all the shit around in your house after your ex finally moves out then holds you as you cry then forces an extra martini or four into you and makes you laugh your ass off. And my only good friends around here are moving 100 miles north, and after that I will have only friendly acquaintances. If I want real friends, I'm going to have to put some work into it. This is just one layer and one direction for that work.

It's about wanting to provide a safe space for those who are butch and femme to speak out about it because *I* need a safe space to speak out about it. I am fully out about being gay - who I love - in my personal life and at work. But being Femme is... a level more personal than that for me, because it's so enmeshed with my sexuality, and it's pretty obvious from who I am and how I look and act and who I chose to be with and how he looked and acted (though YES, there are butches and femmes who do not look/dress as we might expect, but I do, and my ex did). And I want real friends who can get that or at least accept that about me. And I have to believe that hidden among this community are some potential members of my tribe.

I may do this discussion and NO ONE will come. I may do this and the only people who come will be clueless or hostile. OR I may do this and two people show up, one who is open to thinking outside the box she's lived in with regard to gender expression and one who is thrilled to find other butch/femme-identified folks in our community.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

My motives are far more self-serving than to just attempt to educate the hostile.

It's about wanting to be among queer folk in my community. I am part of some fantastic online communities - and am beginning to count this one among those. And I have made some life-long and deep, lasting friendships among people that I've met online. But online and long-distance doesn't give you someone to play cards with on Saturday nights, or go out to dinner on your birthday, or help you move all the shit around in your house after your ex finally moves out then holds you as you cry then forces an extra martini or four into you and makes you laugh your ass off. And my only good friends around here are moving 100 miles north, and after that I will have only friendly acquaintances. If I want real friends, I'm going to have to put some work into it. This is just one layer and one direction for that work.

It's about wanting to provide a safe space for those who are butch and femme to speak out about it because *I* need a safe space to speak out about it. I am fully out about being gay - who I love - in my personal life and at work. But being Femme is... a level more personal than that for me, because it's so enmeshed with my sexuality, and it's pretty obvious from who I am and how I look and act and who I chose to be with and how he looked and acted (though YES, there are butches and femmes who do not look/dress as we might expect, but I do, and my ex did). And I want real friends who can get that or at least accept that about me. And I have to believe that hidden among this community are some potential members of my tribe.

I may do this discussion and NO ONE will come. I may do this and the only people who come will be clueless or hostile. OR I may do this and two people show up, one who is open to thinking outside the box she's lived in with regard to gender expression and one who is thrilled to find other butch/femme-identified folks in our community.

Then do it. There is no one telling you not to. Right now there are people from this very site doing a reunion, where everyone is welcome, no matter where they fall in the circle (I hate the spectrum analogy because it infers liner). Community is what we make of it, no matter who shows up.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Martina

I was wearing more make-up and jewelry back then, and she wanted me to not wear it because it didn't please her. That was entirely fair given our connection. BUT it didn't please her because she thought of femininity as pandering to men, as something shameful. A proud woman, in her mind, did not need that stuff. It's hard to educate from below, and I am not sure I did. That relationship did not last long.

I was told this *exact* same thing by my second queer partner. I thought she would LIKE when I dolled it up a bit. Um, not so much. I was floored when she put a baseball cap and one of her oversize flannel shirts (I am not shitting you) and and proceeded to tell me hot I looked.

I *thought* b/c she was more on the andro/masc. side, she would appreciate my more traditional markers of femininity. I had NO idea (based on my limited experience), that she was, in fact, turned off when I did my hair, put on makeup and wore skirts/dresses/heels etc.

Didn't last long, either.

Btw, I totally GET what this thread is about and the OP's need for community as well as, perhaps, for discussion in regards to gender and butch/femme topics in some lesbian circles.

ETA: God, I wish these discussions would happen in the straight community, too. The word "butch" is perceived as an ugly, insult by many.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

Dance-with-me, It is worth the effort! GO for it! Keep us posted on your progress! Educators like you are much needed!

...edited to add, and people who like to bring others together are much needed!

[Red Dirt Girl]

Originally Posted by Corkey

If in the "hundreds of lesbians" you find even a handful of Butches and Femmes who claim that gender identity for themselves you will have found a minority. The vocalized anti Butch Femme is something to pay attention to, because those are the genderphobic, I never said all of them were. Personally I have no time for those types of people.
Butch and Femme are a minority in a minority. I wouldn't say anything to people who are anti any group, I just wouldn't associate with them. Under my breath I may say a whole shipload of stuff, but I tend to ignore those who show their a@@'s publicly.

On one level I completely agree with Corkey's sentiment of “no time for those types of people”. I don’t want to feel pressured or required to explain myself or my partner or my preferred interpersonal dynamics romantically, sexually, fill-in-the-blankly, etc. just because someone is uncomfortable or doesn’t get it. If they are living in a majority kind of universe, I don’t think it’s common for them to be asked to explain or defend the way they live. But I also don’t want to assume that perceptions can’t change, that growth can’t occur, that understanding can’t settle into the space once occupied by fear/anger/disgust/whatever. I don’t think it’s a waste of energy to try to pry open a mind, especially when doing so has the potential to ultimately make the world a safer, happier and more free place for me (you, them, we, us…) to live in. In my experience, it is the talking about and being open with the difficult/personal/mind-your-own-business stuff that affords folks the opportunity to change their perceptions. It’s obviously not our job to do this, and it’s certainly not everyone’s cup of tea, but if we are able to safely be out and visible and vulnerable and communicative, we might find more minds opening than we expected. (I finally came out to my 87 year old, relatively conservative aunt who now asks about my partner on a regular basis! Go Aunt Lill!!)