Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[Dance-with-me]

OK, I'm going to try and back up and take this in.

First, I apologize for offense taken by the use of the term "generics lesbians." It's a term that a friend of mine and I banter about to describe most of the lesbian community where I live, which consists of women who are largely in the middle in terms of their gender expression and presentation, and who also too well known for being very much against anyone calling themselves butch or femme. The area where I live does not have a generally diverse community -- if you go to any lesbian event, both the women who live locally and the women who attend from out of town will be overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly "fit", overwhelmingly economically privileged, and will also overwhelmingly have short hair and perhaps slightly masculine "sporty" clothing but very frequently with earrings and a touch of makeup and a girlfriend who can be described in exactly the same way. This is not an exaggeration, as others here who have visited this area can verify. If anyone can suggest a non-offensive term to use, I would much appreciate it.

My thoughts on doing this discussion was to start a dialog about gender dynamics and gender presentation within our community, in hopes of at least indirectly addressing the overwhelming amount of anti-butch/femme sentiment in this community -- in particular, the openly anti-butch sentiment that pervades this community, that crosses over into anti-femme sentiments as well, since I've been told many variations on "why do you want a woman who is trying to pretend she's a guy?" or "I don't get why you're into playing roles like that" by folks who will accept (but clearly not get) someone with a strikingly feminine/femme gender presentation (especially if she's with another "lipstick lesbian", but are openly puzzled by or even hostile towards a butch with a clearly masculine gender presentation, or a butch/femme couple who are clearly enjoying that specific dynamic between them.

I am open to all suggestions.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

OK, I'm going to try and back up and take this in.

First, I apologize for offense taken by the use of the term "generics lesbians." It's a term that a friend of mine and I banter about to describe most of the lesbian community where I live, which consists of women who are largely in the middle in terms of their gender expression and presentation, and who also too well known for being very much against anyone calling themselves butch or femme. The area where I live does not have a generally diverse community -- if you go to any lesbian event, both the women who live locally and the women who attend from out of town will be overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly "fit", overwhelmingly economically privileged, and will also overwhelmingly have short hair and perhaps slightly masculine "sporty" clothing but very frequently with earrings and a touch of makeup and a girlfriend who can be described in exactly the same way. This is not an exaggeration, as others here who have visited this area can verify. If anyone can suggest a non-offensive term to use, I would much appreciate it.

My thoughts on doing this discussion was to start a dialog about gender dynamics and gender presentation within our community, in hopes of at least indirectly addressing the overwhelming amount of anti-butch/femme sentiment in this community -- in particular, the openly anti-butch sentiment that pervades this community, that crosses over into anti-femme sentiments as well, since I've been told many variations on "why do you want a woman who is trying to pretend she's a guy?" or "I don't get why you're into playing roles like that" by folks who will accept (but clearly not get) someone with a strikingly feminine/femme gender presentation (especially if she's with another "lipstick lesbian", but are openly puzzled by or even hostile towards a butch with a clearly masculine gender presentation, or a butch/femme couple who are clearly enjoying that specific dynamic between them.

I am open to all suggestions.

Unless a person has an investment in understanding something, they are not going to be open to it. I don't know the purpose of the meetup group, but if you can find a way to speak to what may create an interest for them in this topic, you will be off to a good start. Good luck. You definitely have a tough crowd in that specific community.

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Unless a person has an investment in understanding something, they are not going to be open to it. I don't know the purpose of the meetup group, but if you can find a way to speak to what may create an interest for them in this topic, you will be off to a good start. Good luck. You definitely have a tough crowd in that specific community.

Oh I definitely know that a closed mind is not going to be opened. The topics of their discussion gatherings are publicized in advance, so I'm hoping that anyone who attended would come with an open mind. I planned to ask a B/F couple I know to go with me, if for no other reason than to have a butch present for the discussion. I also would hope that it would be a safe space for others in the group who identify as butch or femme to talk about that - because it really is not a community that otherwise supports it, and I imagine there may be some who ID as butch or femme who have been reluctant to come out.

[BrutalDaddy]

The area I live in isn't too bad, meaning there's a few butches here and there but for most part, straight and lgbtq folks just smile at 'sational and I then go about their business.

Now on the other side of the bay from where we live is a different story. Lol. I still remember when 'sational first came to see me, we went to a local gay bar I hadn't been in and someone had told me we should try it out. Okay, cool. Some place where we can talk and hang out, play pool, and not worry about people giving us sideway looks. Oh how wrong I was. I swear we got nastier dirty looks from the lesbians in that bar then we ever get from straight people! Seriously, it was making us a lil uncomfortable. Lol.

So I can understand kinda where you're coming from, Dance. I hope you're able to figure out how you want to approach it and that you find others who are willing to expand their own minds and views. Good luck.


Grinning At The Haters (in that bar),
Brute.

[Corkey]

As each person is different, we are all individuals living in a society that doesn't respect our personal presentations. Just as there is no single way to describe Butch or Femme, the clothes do not make the ID. It never has and it never will.
We are human beings , each with a path that is different than any other human. I agree with discussing in the *I* and not generalizing.

[Dance-with-me]

Let me try approach this question from a different perspective, sinc I have zero intention of generalizing anyone but clearly not explaining myself effectively:

You live in a community with extremely little diversity in the lesbian community and a lot of open anti-butch/femme viewpoints, even open derision of butches in particular. Within the context of an ongoing lesbian discussion group (with pre-announced topics so no one is surprised) you'd like to open a dialog to discuss gender presentation and expression in the lesbian community, with the hope of both starting some honest dialog and to potentially give potentially closeted butches and femmes in that community a safe space to self-identify and connect.

How would you go about doing that? How would you describe this particular discussion on the schedule?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

Let me try approach this question from a different perspective, sinc I have zero intention of generalizing anyone but clearly not explaining myself effectively:

You live in a community with extremely little diversity in the lesbian community and a lot of open anti-butch/femme viewpoints, even open derision of butches in particular. Within the context of an ongoing lesbian discussion group (with pre-announced topics so no one is surprised) you'd like to open a dialog to discuss gender presentation and expression in the lesbian community, with the hope of both starting some honest dialog and to potentially give potentially closeted butches and femmes in that community a safe space to self-identify and connect.

How would you go about doing that? How would you describe this particular discussion on the schedule?

Invite them to this site. I wouldn't try to open other peoples minds who were genderphobic. It's a waste of energy.

[Dance-with-me]

But I am not assuming that everyone is gender phobic - there is no reason to generalize everyone by the vocalized anti-butch sentiment of others. I am assuming that in this particular meetup group of several hundred women, there are some who are not gender phobic - who perhaps are even butch or femme, or are interested in the topic. Who have perhaps heard much of the anti-butch/femme crap and not known what to say.

[Greyson]

You might meet with the group's facilitator or whomever is the person that sets up the schedule. Ask them to help you word the topic in such a way to be clear on the topic and in a way that does not point toward blame and shame.

I agree with others here that have mentioned masculine and feminine. Neither of these are gender specific. Finally, you might want to start reading about gender, gender presentation, sexuality, gender in the lesbian community to prepare yourself for the discussion and a better understanding of what others may believe and what yourself believes.

Good luck.