only another butch would understand

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Let me just give a personal narrative here:

(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)


I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.

A good example:

When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".

When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".

Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)

So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.

After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.

My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.

Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".

The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

As a butch woman, often referenced and mistaken for male in 3d space (not to mention online), your post truly resonates for me. Butches like me really needed to see so much of what you've said acknowledged, and I can't state enough how much your words are appreciated.

I've been out for 30 years, and only online has this been an issue for me -- not because people don't refer to me as "he" in the real world, but because within my own butch-femme community I never thought I'd have to fight to be seen for who I am. I'm tired of this conversation, and yet I know it needs to take place if only to help butches who are still coming out realize that it's okay to retain a female identity without having their "butchness" questioned, scrutinized, or devalued. (If that identity is what is true for them.) And in no way does that (or should that) discount those who male-ID; it just doesn't allow that to be the default. Do I believe it's a product of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny? Yes, most likely in many cases; however, generally I believe it is more a result of habit. Habits can be broken and should be if they're detrimental. This nasty habit has erased many and created an aritificial, bullshit hierarchy that is detrimental to our cohesion as a community online.

I'm swamped with work presently and should not even be on here reading, let alone posting, but I just had to publicly express my gratitude for your ownership of your actions and your perspective on how this can be addressed.

in admiration and respect,
Beau, who'd really prefer to be "just butch"

[Toughy]

D U S A ! ! !

I love you baby...........thank you so much for speaking up....that was hard to do and I, for one, really appreciate that you did..........the role of femmes in the male pronoun default has always been on my mind.....

----------

e

I will have to come back to you. I am recovering from pneumonia and still have huge amounts of drugs in my system and my brain can hardly put a paragraph together....

oh yeah.....I think I disagree with you..........even after you further explained....

and thank you for the apology.....

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

<snip>
I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

When I first read this post, I wanted to rep you, BullDog, for drawing attention to the importance for all masculine peoples (I'm sticking with the general here) to examine masculinity and how we wear/utilize it. I have spent a number of years consciously examining my masculinity in an effort to better understand the creature that I am, and so that I might more fluidly navigate a world that does not understand me without feeling perpetually ill at ease and misunderstood.

Then I got to this last paragraph. To put it bluntly, I felt a door closing. The door not solely to this thread, but to this site. Now, I know you weren't addressing me in particular and that I should know better than to take your statements personally. But I did. Your statement felt exclusionary. Your statement said, “In this female queer space, you are a tolerated outsider.” (There is a fundamental fallacy in the term “female queer space” in that this is not identified as “female queer space,” but I think that’s already been addressed.) What it feels like is that we (male identified) should have to justify our presence here. I resent feeling like I need to reveal parts of my history in order to be validated; like I should pull down my pants and show you my bits so we can see how “alike” we all are. I struggle constantly with trying to reconcile my life – my history, accomplishments, journies – with where I am today. I believed this was one place – and this is relevant to the thread title – where butches would understand; where I could be accepted as just butch.

What a lot of this feels like to me - this unwarranted saddling of male-id’ed butches with male privilege – is to place us in the position of oppressor.

Really?

Not so much. Because while I don’t disagree that there are circumstances in which female identified butches might feel invisible or have to fight to be seen as who they are, maybe we need to examine who is responsible for that, because, to quote Johnny Cash, it ain’t me, babe.

See, I just see butch. I don’t subscribe to hierarchal thinking, it’s rubbish, and anyone who does subscribe to it needs some serious educating. Not lines drawn, not us/them speak, not victim/oppressor posturing.

Last night, I wanted to ask to whom you addressed the following, “You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are.” Personally, I’m hoping you are fair minded enough to recognize that is a statement that applies equally to butches of all flavors, it is hardly unique to male-id’ed butches.

And then I thought, well, here goes another "butch (inclusive) thread turning into a gender identity war." That hadn't happened here yet. Now, I'm not blaming you for that simply because you were the first person to feel it necessary to draw some sort of line distinguishing "types" of butch. I suppose those of us who take issue with your post could simply have remained silent; just taken our invisibility and sat there quietly with it.

Originally Posted by BullDog

<snip> Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities.

This feels incredibly dismissive to me:

"It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large..."

It's dismissive of male-identified/trans butches who have not one whiff of male privilege out in the world at large, and worse, it's dismissive of the shared experience of ALL butches. This thread, which got off to a rocky start, and may have been ill-conceived to begin with, was about what we relate to among ourselves - as butches. No modifiers necessary.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Let me just give a personal narrative here:

(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)


I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.

A good example:

When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".

When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".

Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)

So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.

After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.

My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.

Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".

The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

Medusa thank you, I truly appreciate what you've expressed in your post... and what you obviously heard... again much appreciation.

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

As a butch woman, often referenced and mistaken for male in 3d space (not to mention online), your post truly resonates for me. Butches like me really needed to see so much of what you've said acknowledged, and I can't state enough how much your words are appreciated.

I've been out for 30 years, and only online has this been an issue for me -- not because people don't refer to me as "he" in the real world, but because within my own butch-femme community I never thought I'd have to fight to be seen for who I am. I'm tired of this conversation, and yet I know it needs to take place if only to help butches who are still coming out realize that it's okay to retain a female identity without having their "butchness" questioned, scrutinized, or devalued. (If that identity is what is true for them.) And in no way does that (or should that) discount those who male-ID; it just doesn't allow that to be the default. Do I believe it's a product of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny? Yes, most likely in many cases; however, generally I believe it is more a result of habit. Habits can be broken and should be if they're detrimental. This nasty habit has erased many and created an aritificial, bullshit hierarchy that is detrimental to our cohesion as a community online.

I'm swamped with work presently and should not even be on here reading, let alone posting, but I just had to publicly express my gratitude for your ownership of your actions and your perspective on how this can be addressed.

in admiration and respect,
Beau, who'd really prefer to be "just butch"

Beau, thanks I totally hear you and get this. I had a whole post in response/concurrence but really you said it quite well already.

I don't know how deep I'll be in these particular conversations, I'm kind of getting into "just being" these days w/o having to explain it at every turn... and a bit tired too. That said I do still feel invested in these particular issues, so we'll see.

Peace,
Metro

[BullDog]

Mister Bent I read your post and wouldn't really even know where to begin. You certainly don't appear to understand at all what I am talking about.

Best wishes to you- sincerely meant.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent I read your post and wouldn't really even know where to begin. You certainly don't appear to understand at all what I am talking about.

Best wishes to you- sincerely meant.

I think I do understand what you're talking about.

I think it's unfortunate that you don't want to take ownership for the power of what you said, perhaps because you can't understand that your statements were as exclusionary as those of which you accuse others? I won't presume to understand your reasons.

You have, however, again been dismissive.

This method of non-discourse and discounting another's ability to understand is a further means by which to exclude.