The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

... As a Femme, for me it has been a slow and wonderful evolution, I have found and embraced my femininity 100% and that was a slow and painful process …It took years for me to watch, learn, get to know, and accept all kinds of femme's…

I ooze masculinity in my everyday life…tend to think a lot more like a guy, like more male perceived oriented things and probably have more male presenting…I don't have any rules, I don't have any gender expectations and I don't assign man as default to my butch counterparts…

I don't know where I fit on the scale of Femme I know I am one… I am a Power Femme, my power comes from within, it's a natural part of my dominance… Femme is femme… it's not a scale of low and high, it's my gender, and I don't see gender as something you can put a scaled value, it should have *value* period, not fucking degrees of it…

This will be a great thread if we can all come from our Femme experience and without a *set* of guidelines on what femme is, because honestly what I have learned that within our Queerdom is we are so fluid all of us in gender that it evolves every day, and instead of doing the better than thou thing, we should celebrate that maybe one day gender isn't just about the F or the M we are assigned, and that it's perfectly fine to live out of the binary and for fucks sakes that EVERYONE should fuck till they are sweaty, cotton mouthed, and a lil bloodied if that so pleased you!!!

Lady_Snow sorry i cut and pasted your lovely post to what seemed relevant and necessary for my response. i bolded a few lines which fit my conundrum well.

i like you, don’t know where i fit on the scale of femme. i am not even certain i am one. i have been in a wrestling match with me in terms of my gender and sexuality for a decade. Every time i think i come to grips with myself, i find a new twist. i know three elements are consistent no matter how the rest of the package looks.
1. i am 100% a masochistic submissive, in every way shape and form. It is a raw requirement in my life. It is as necessary as breathing.
2. i am demisexual as it is very difficult to have a sexual relationship without all the trimmings. i need the full package right down to the love. Even under these specific rules it is very difficult for me to reach a climax.
3. i am gynesexual/romantic and a relationship with a straight male is absolutely out of the question. A transman, butch, boi, daddy what have you does not count as a straight male and so it still works for me. i can fit and be for them as easily as a femme.
Since i first discovered i was queer years before Stonewall i have always struggled with the appearance of femme for myself. i hated dresses. i hated the shoes. i hated the makeup. No way was this me. i am very much attracted to these qualities though. i have had relationships with both sides, butch and femme. Yet my main relationship has been with a Domme femme. We have walked much of our lives together in one way or another.
Our relationship is poly and has been since the 70’s. This is how we have managed to stay connected for so long. Back to the point, i have been torn by the myth of gender. i see gender as nothing more than a societal interpretation of a role model. You have a vagina so you should fit this reality. You have a penis so you should fit this role model. It is the way is and has been and should remain according to culture and society. Is gender more than our physical being? Is gender more a mental process? Well now that we can transition into either physical gender via surgery what really is gender? Are there only two? Some cultures have as many as ten. This boggles even my questioning mind. i have never felt particularly female. I have never felt male. i am in the body i am in and so be it. i have no wish to transition. It never even caught my attention. i am actually jealous of those who have the desire to transition and do. They have a gender home or identity. (i hate that word)
So here i sit on the cusp of a gender. Female boy and many thought processes fit the feminine role. But I do not fit that role. i do not fit that masculine role either. i found comfort in fitting in what is known as Third Gender or out of alignment with either.
When i look at the butch femme roles i see an image of the heterosexual normative. Is this who we are as queer women? Do i need to find my place in one of these gender roles within the queer women of the world? i do not fit these roles. i sit in a no woman’s land. i embrace the female in me and embrace the masculinity in me. i identify with some of what you say Lady_Snow. i would like to celebrate my gender but what exactly is my gender. Are some of doomed to wander aimlessly without a place to anchor. i can reason that i have a vagina and like woman i must be a lesbian. Does anyone else experience this sort of gender and sexual dimorphism?

[femmeInterrupted]

Originally Posted by fayedoll

[COLOR="Blue"]

i am gynesexual/romantic and a relationship with a straight male is absolutely out of the question. A transman, butch, boi, daddy what have you does not count as a straight male and so it still works for me. i can fit and be for them as easily as a femme.

You have a vagina so you should fit this reality. You have a penis so you should fit this role model. It is the way is and has been and should remain according to culture and society. Is gender more than our physical being? Is gender more a mental process? Well now that we can transition into either physical gender via surgery what really is gender? Are there only two? Some cultures have as many as ten. This boggles even my questioning mind. i have never felt particularly female. I have never felt male. i am in the body i am in and so be it. i have no wish to transition. It never even caught my attention. i am actually jealous of those who have the desire to transition and do. They have a gender home or identity. (i hate that word)
So here i sit on the cusp of a gender. Female boy and many thought processes fit the feminine role. But I do not fit that role. i do not fit that masculine role either. i found comfort in fitting in what is known as Third Gender or out of alignment with either.
When i look at the butch femme roles i see an image of the heterosexual normative. Is this who we are as queer women? Do i need to find my place in one of these gender roles within the queer women of the world? i do not fit these roles. i sit in a no woman’s land. i embrace the female in me and embrace the masculinity in me. i identify with some of what you say Lady_Snow. i would like to celebrate my gender but what exactly is my gender. Are some of doomed to wander aimlessly without a place to anchor. i can reason that i have a vagina and like woman i must be a lesbian. Does anyone else experience this sort of gender and sexual dimorphism? [/I][/SIZE]

I'd like to gently respond to a piece in your post that I take issue with...specifically with the issue of a male with a transsexual experience, (transman) not 'counting' as a straight male. Regardless of his orientation, queer, bi or heterosexual, dismissing a Transman as not counting is entirely problematic. More so because it is also this belief that keeps women of transsexual histories and experience ( Transwomen) in a state of being 'othered' and not being seen or perceived as 'a real woman' also. Using genitals to make this distinction is also problematic. I assume that is what you meant when you said "gynesexual'? So a Transman without bottom surgery is still seen a 'really a woman' because ..... ? You can see how potentially disrespectful and derogatory that can be to a male who has transitioned. On the flip side of that, a woman who for what ever reasons cannot or does not have reconstructive bottom surgery is no less a woman for it. This is the pussy police crap that Michigan Women's Fest and other gate keepers use to oppress and discriminate out of ignorance.

I think there is a vast difference between sex and gender. There is biological sex. There is brain sex. Gender in and of itself is a social construct. It's an important distinction because identifying as gender queer, or gender fluid, or anywhere on that spectrum, is NOT the same thing as having a transsexual experience or history. In transitioning, people are aligning their bodies with their brains. Making right ( or right as possible) an often painful discrepancy between who they 'are' and what their bodies 'did'. I am not speaking for Transwomen here, but the women I know who have transitioned identify as WOMAN first and foremost. Then as lesbian or straight or bi, femme, butch, (or not at all) vegan, feminist, etc etc. It is very important for me, as an ally, to voice this distinction because it's easy for the most marginalized voices to get lost.

This is an interesting article about brain sex
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rain-scan.html

I appreciate your post and your presence here, and wanted to speak up about that which bothered me respectfully, which I hope I have done.

In Solidarity,
j.

[Apocalipstic]

What a great thread!

I am really enjoying it.

What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men?

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

What a great thread!

I am really enjoying it.

What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men?

Thank you i always have difficulty trying to clarify where i stand and try not in anyway offend but alas it does happen. Hugs

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by fayedoll

Thank you i always have difficulty trying to clarify where i stand and try not in anyway offend but alas it does happen. Hugs

I struggle with choosing correct wording as well.
Language is not keeping up with our diversity!

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I struggle with choosing correct wording as well.
Language is not keeping up with our diversity!

No it is not. It makes understanding hard and divides us when we should be striving for unity. i have always had a hard time discussing that topic with the limits of words and the understanding of human differences at the cerebral level. i can not explain why i am such. it is just as difficult to explain why i am queer. i have no idea why, i just am and accept it.

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

What a great thread!

I am really enjoying it.

What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men?

I bump up against this one a LOT. Because my main sexual attractions are towards transmen, I experience the difficulties of trying to "explain" why that is. To some degree--it just IS. I just say my main attractions/orientation is towards transmen. Why are any of us attracted to the type of people we are attracted to? I've gotten the hackles up of more than one transman trying to explain it, and you know what? It's the way I'm wired and I don't feel I really HAVE to have some sort of explanation for it.

If a Femme lesbian is attracted to woman ID Butch lesbians--is she making any commentary on whether or not a Butch woman is a BETTER kind of woman, a more VALID kind, or are those not attracted to Butch women saying they are LESSER? Not really. We are on a site for crying out loud DEVOTED to a group of people who experience pretty specific sexual attractions, no?

For me, it's an energy of a certain TYPE of transman. I am attracted to transmen who usually identify as Queer, have ties with the Queer community, and who find an analogous Femme/FTM dynamic that is similar to Butch/Femme. An FTM that identifies as heterosexual is far less likely to float my boat.

Not for nothing--but I have NEVER in my entire life met a straight cis man who understands me like trans men do. EVER. Do I have some logical formulaic answer to that? Not really. And I have known a number of Femmes who have similar attractions to my own--and all I have to say is that I think it's a valid form of Femme sexuality. I know it can be a slippery slope to explain and I have been accused of fetishizing and otherizing before.

One thing that has occured to me, to throw out there--is WHY are Femmes even expected to justify this shit? I'm pretty sure that having "GIRL" slapped on your ass when you are born because of whatever junk you were born with gives a man a different lived experience in the world than if they had "BOY" slapped on their ass from day one. I don't know how ANYONE could deny that. What is so wrong about being drawn to men with that particular experience? As far as my trans* partners have been concerned--not a damn thing. And that's what matters to me most.

I belive it's important to be respectful and careful in use of language--but I do NOT believe I have to justify my sexual attractions. Which I guess is a really long answer to your question LOL. I just say it. "My main attractions/my sexual orientation is towards transmen." And leave it at that.

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I bump up against this one a LOT. Because my main sexual attractions are towards transmen, I experience the difficulties of trying to "explain" why that is. To some degree--it just IS. I just say my main attractions/orientation is towards transmen. Why are any of us attracted to the type of people we are attracted to? I've gotten the hackles up of more than one transman trying to explain it, and you know what? It's the way I'm wired and I don't feel I really HAVE to have some sort of explanation for it.

If a Femme lesbian is attracted to woman ID Butch lesbians--is she making any commentary on whether or not a Butch woman is a BETTER kind of woman, a more VALID kind, or are those not attracted to Butch women saying they are LESSER? Not really. We are on a site for crying out loud DEVOTED to a group of people who experience pretty specific sexual attractions, no?

For me, it's an energy of a certain TYPE of transman. I am attracted to transmen who usually identify as Queer, have ties with the Queer community, and who find an analogous Femme/FTM dynamic that is similar to Butch/Femme. An FTM that identifies as heterosexual is far less likely to float my boat.

Not for nothing--but I have NEVER in my entire life met a straight cis man who understands me like trans men do. EVER. Do I have some logical formulaic answer to that? Not really. And I have known a number of Femmes who have similar attractions to my own--and all I have to say is that I think it's a valid form of Femme sexuality. I know it can be a slippery slope to explain and I have been accused of fetishizing and otherizing before.

One thing that has occured to me, to throw out there--is WHY are Femmes even expected to justify this shit? I'm pretty sure that having "GIRL" slapped on your ass when you are born because of whatever junk you were born with gives a man a different lived experience in the world than if they had "BOY" slapped on their ass from day one. I don't know how ANYONE could deny that. What is so wrong about being drawn to men with that particular experience? As far as my trans* partners have been concerned--not a damn thing. And that's what matters to me most.

I belive it's important to be respectful and careful in use of language--but I do NOT believe I have to justify my sexual attractions. Which I guess is a really long answer to your question LOL. I just say it. "My main attractions/my sexual orientation is towards transmen." And leave it at that.

This is exactly what the rub was in my earlier post. i can't say why i have certain attractions. It is impossible to explain. i am attracted to women of any type and transmen as well. There is no good way to explain it. Thanks for the great post.

[Apocalipstic]

Yes and yes!

CCB, I just figured out who you are and am so happy to see you here! Long time no see!

When I think of the Highs and Lows of visibility or labels at all, I am fine with tossing it all out the window...except for labels can be useful when trying to put in words what I might be looking for sexually. Does that make sense?

Even with the label "Femme" come so many expectations of who I might or might not be...and what sort of person I might seek.

Really at this point, even I am not sure.

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Yes and yes!

CCB, I just figured out who you are and am so happy to see you here! Long time no see!

When I think of the Highs and Lows of visibility or labels at all, I am fine with tossing it all out the window...except for labels can be useful when trying to put in words what I might be looking for sexually. Does that make sense?

Even with the label "Femme" come so many expectations of who I might or might not be...and what sort of person I might seek.

Really at this point, even I am not sure.

labels have always divided. When i was young i was queer. The word Dyke came along a few months after i identified myself as queer. Now i had two names. Lesbian was a nit later and it was my new identity. Oh but wait i now cut out the rest of the queers. i became a specific kind.
When the movement began we were all one now we are LGBTPQ and so on.
Each letter divides us more and more. I would love for us to all go back to being just queer.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Yes and yes!

CCB, I just figured out who you are and am so happy to see you here! Long time no see!

When I think of the Highs and Lows of visibility or labels at all, I am fine with tossing it all out the window...except for labels can be useful when trying to put in words what I might be looking for sexually. Does that make sense?

Even with the label "Femme" come so many expectations of who I might or might not be...and what sort of person I might seek.

Really at this point, even I am not sure.

I personally get really frustrated. Especially when it comes to cultural translation of those IDs. When I came home I was meeting lots of lesbians that to my southern english definition certainly qualified them as to being garden variety butch women. I recall one gal had an argument with my own personal definition because she didn't act like a lumberjack. In my experience she was a very romantic old fashioned stone butch. But because she painted her toe nails green and cried during movies she did not see herself as "masculine."
I told her that in my own personal opinion butches have their own thing, not masculinity, but their very own vibe that makes them just who they are. She paused at that and nodded and said she could get on board with that.

I'm used to a decade of seeing things that way. so to come home to west coast woo and fashion for butches being a clean pair of jeans and a black t-shirt without any stains on it, no make up and big huge boots... I kinda felt a loss for the myriad of diversity that was london. And thus a pretty diverse understanding of what it was to be who you were.

And to my suprise, what was considered bog standard girly dress fashion I was now being slapped with a qualifyier of "High Femme" - I hate qualifiers. I'm not even sure I particularly care for the term femme anymore because it's so loaded over here with expectations. I shrug at that. If that's how people see me, whatever. That's fine. But the second they start expecting me to be a particular way just because I hate flats, I love make up and wear a corset every chance I get, then I balk. And people do have expectations.

So I personally just call myself a girly girl or a dolly. Maybe a skirt sometimes. I find femme becoming to loaded now to deal with. When I was in a couple, it was fine. It didn't matter. But now that I'm single... I find people project a whole lotta "that's not me!" onto that word simply because their definitions come from their experiences and many people, their experiences are limited to a particular demographic locality.

Sometimes I opt for saying "women who are also boys -for lack of a better word- for me to expand on that would require discussions of concepts about their sexual preferences, sexual-self concepts, sex acts and habits." when people ask what I'm attracted to. Or if I'm in a mood to not expand, I just say "boyish-androgny with a bit of smart ass thrown in." I figure that covers it.

One gal told me "oh I'm boyish. I don't like shopping."
"neither do I darlin' and as you can see I'm quite feminine but I loathe it (clothes shopping)."
She kinda lost whatever it was she wanted to say and wandered off. Don't qualify it hun, it will only get you into hot water with double standards of gender task expectations.

just be it. You don't have to call yourself anything. I'll see you.

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by femmeInterrupted

I'd like to gently respond to a piece in your post that I take issue with...specifically with the issue of a male with a transsexual experience, (transman) not 'counting' as a straight male. Regardless of his orientation, queer, bi or heterosexual, dismissing a Transman as not counting is entirely problematic. More so because it is also this belief that keeps women of transsexual histories and experience ( Transwomen) in a state of being 'othered' and not being seen or perceived as 'a real woman' also. Using genitals to make this distinction is also problematic. I assume that is what you meant when you said "gynesexual'? So a Transman without bottom surgery is still seen a 'really a woman' because ..... ? You can see how potentially disrespectful and derogatory that can be to a male who has transitioned. On the flip side of that, a woman who for what ever reasons cannot or does not have reconstructive bottom surgery is no less a woman for it. This is the pussy police crap that Michigan Women's Fest and other gate keepers use to oppress and discriminate out of ignorance.

I think there is a vast difference between sex and gender. There is biological sex. There is brain sex. Gender in and of itself is a social construct. It's an important distinction because identifying as gender queer, or gender fluid, or anywhere on that spectrum, is NOT the same thing as having a transsexual experience or history. In transitioning, people are aligning their bodies with their brains. Making right ( or right as possible) an often painful discrepancy between who they 'are' and what their bodies 'did'. I am not speaking for Transwomen here, but the women I know who have transitioned identify as WOMAN first and foremost. Then as lesbian or straight or bi, femme, butch, (or not at all) vegan, feminist, etc etc. It is very important for me, as an ally, to voice this distinction because it's easy for the most marginalized voices to get lost.

This is an interesting article about brain sex
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rain-scan.html

I appreciate your post and your presence here, and wanted to speak up about that which bothered me respectfully, which I hope I have done.

In Solidarity,
j.

Thank you for the very polite and lovely post. i appreciate it.
i have done much reading on the myths of gender and the sociological construct and agree this is what gender is. Our sexuality is our mental makeup. If you look i myself identify as Third Gender. I do understand what you are saying.
i have not gone to the Michigan Women's Fest in eons because they are the gender police. i am totally against their policy.
Gynesexual and Gyneromantic means i relate only to females. i do not relate in either way to males. i do agree that transmen are fully male. i will stand behind that 100%. Something though inside of me allows me to go there. i cannot explain this. It is one of those mysteries of the mind and sensory nature of individuals human beings and how and what they process. i have been with fully transitioned transmen. i can't tell you or explain this in my nature. i can't say that it is something about personality. i can't say this is because of some chemical makeup. i have no idea.
i can say that i have had very bad experiences with a number of straight males in my life. A number of friends have experiences as bad or worse. Many women have and see life through a different lens than i do.
i do see where you are coming from and do agree transmen and transmen are every bit the gender they are before and after transitioning. i disagree with the idea of gender police.
i am sorry if this somehow seems offensive as i do agree with all you have said. Though i stand with you there is something which allows me to experience a transman in a sexual nature. Perhaps it will all come out in my ongoing walks through therapy.
i hope you can understand my particular quark. i mean no disrespect to transmen or transwomen. In fact i never or rarely use those terms and see everyone as the gender they state. ON sites like this i will use SYR, hym hy and so on but i do believe these separate our community rather than unite us. Though i do not believe there are only two genders i think the only people who should be called by these gender neutral terms are people who are outside of either gender or Third Gender/Gender=nul/Agender/genderqueer and so on. Anyone trans IMO should be called whatever gender they are.
i have rambled enough and say this in respect to the post you so lovingly crafted.
If you have any questions i am more then happy to respond and thank you
sincerely,
fayedoll