The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

What a great thread!

I am really enjoying it.

What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men?

I bump up against this one a LOT. Because my main sexual attractions are towards transmen, I experience the difficulties of trying to "explain" why that is. To some degree--it just IS. I just say my main attractions/orientation is towards transmen. Why are any of us attracted to the type of people we are attracted to? I've gotten the hackles up of more than one transman trying to explain it, and you know what? It's the way I'm wired and I don't feel I really HAVE to have some sort of explanation for it.

If a Femme lesbian is attracted to woman ID Butch lesbians--is she making any commentary on whether or not a Butch woman is a BETTER kind of woman, a more VALID kind, or are those not attracted to Butch women saying they are LESSER? Not really. We are on a site for crying out loud DEVOTED to a group of people who experience pretty specific sexual attractions, no?

For me, it's an energy of a certain TYPE of transman. I am attracted to transmen who usually identify as Queer, have ties with the Queer community, and who find an analogous Femme/FTM dynamic that is similar to Butch/Femme. An FTM that identifies as heterosexual is far less likely to float my boat.

Not for nothing--but I have NEVER in my entire life met a straight cis man who understands me like trans men do. EVER. Do I have some logical formulaic answer to that? Not really. And I have known a number of Femmes who have similar attractions to my own--and all I have to say is that I think it's a valid form of Femme sexuality. I know it can be a slippery slope to explain and I have been accused of fetishizing and otherizing before.

One thing that has occured to me, to throw out there--is WHY are Femmes even expected to justify this shit? I'm pretty sure that having "GIRL" slapped on your ass when you are born because of whatever junk you were born with gives a man a different lived experience in the world than if they had "BOY" slapped on their ass from day one. I don't know how ANYONE could deny that. What is so wrong about being drawn to men with that particular experience? As far as my trans* partners have been concerned--not a damn thing. And that's what matters to me most.

I belive it's important to be respectful and careful in use of language--but I do NOT believe I have to justify my sexual attractions. Which I guess is a really long answer to your question LOL. I just say it. "My main attractions/my sexual orientation is towards transmen." And leave it at that.

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I bump up against this one a LOT. Because my main sexual attractions are towards transmen, I experience the difficulties of trying to "explain" why that is. To some degree--it just IS. I just say my main attractions/orientation is towards transmen. Why are any of us attracted to the type of people we are attracted to? I've gotten the hackles up of more than one transman trying to explain it, and you know what? It's the way I'm wired and I don't feel I really HAVE to have some sort of explanation for it.

If a Femme lesbian is attracted to woman ID Butch lesbians--is she making any commentary on whether or not a Butch woman is a BETTER kind of woman, a more VALID kind, or are those not attracted to Butch women saying they are LESSER? Not really. We are on a site for crying out loud DEVOTED to a group of people who experience pretty specific sexual attractions, no?

For me, it's an energy of a certain TYPE of transman. I am attracted to transmen who usually identify as Queer, have ties with the Queer community, and who find an analogous Femme/FTM dynamic that is similar to Butch/Femme. An FTM that identifies as heterosexual is far less likely to float my boat.

Not for nothing--but I have NEVER in my entire life met a straight cis man who understands me like trans men do. EVER. Do I have some logical formulaic answer to that? Not really. And I have known a number of Femmes who have similar attractions to my own--and all I have to say is that I think it's a valid form of Femme sexuality. I know it can be a slippery slope to explain and I have been accused of fetishizing and otherizing before.

One thing that has occured to me, to throw out there--is WHY are Femmes even expected to justify this shit? I'm pretty sure that having "GIRL" slapped on your ass when you are born because of whatever junk you were born with gives a man a different lived experience in the world than if they had "BOY" slapped on their ass from day one. I don't know how ANYONE could deny that. What is so wrong about being drawn to men with that particular experience? As far as my trans* partners have been concerned--not a damn thing. And that's what matters to me most.

I belive it's important to be respectful and careful in use of language--but I do NOT believe I have to justify my sexual attractions. Which I guess is a really long answer to your question LOL. I just say it. "My main attractions/my sexual orientation is towards transmen." And leave it at that.

This is exactly what the rub was in my earlier post. i can't say why i have certain attractions. It is impossible to explain. i am attracted to women of any type and transmen as well. There is no good way to explain it. Thanks for the great post.

[Apocalipstic]

Yes and yes!

CCB, I just figured out who you are and am so happy to see you here! Long time no see!

When I think of the Highs and Lows of visibility or labels at all, I am fine with tossing it all out the window...except for labels can be useful when trying to put in words what I might be looking for sexually. Does that make sense?

Even with the label "Femme" come so many expectations of who I might or might not be...and what sort of person I might seek.

Really at this point, even I am not sure.

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Yes and yes!

CCB, I just figured out who you are and am so happy to see you here! Long time no see!

When I think of the Highs and Lows of visibility or labels at all, I am fine with tossing it all out the window...except for labels can be useful when trying to put in words what I might be looking for sexually. Does that make sense?

Even with the label "Femme" come so many expectations of who I might or might not be...and what sort of person I might seek.

Really at this point, even I am not sure.

labels have always divided. When i was young i was queer. The word Dyke came along a few months after i identified myself as queer. Now i had two names. Lesbian was a nit later and it was my new identity. Oh but wait i now cut out the rest of the queers. i became a specific kind.
When the movement began we were all one now we are LGBTPQ and so on.
Each letter divides us more and more. I would love for us to all go back to being just queer.

[LeftWriteFemme]

Sometimes this is the problem with being femme

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by LeftWriteFemme

Sometimes this is the problem with being femme

Yes.........

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Yes and yes!

CCB, I just figured out who you are and am so happy to see you here! Long time no see!

When I think of the Highs and Lows of visibility or labels at all, I am fine with tossing it all out the window...except for labels can be useful when trying to put in words what I might be looking for sexually. Does that make sense?

Even with the label "Femme" come so many expectations of who I might or might not be...and what sort of person I might seek.

Really at this point, even I am not sure.

I personally get really frustrated. Especially when it comes to cultural translation of those IDs. When I came home I was meeting lots of lesbians that to my southern english definition certainly qualified them as to being garden variety butch women. I recall one gal had an argument with my own personal definition because she didn't act like a lumberjack. In my experience she was a very romantic old fashioned stone butch. But because she painted her toe nails green and cried during movies she did not see herself as "masculine."
I told her that in my own personal opinion butches have their own thing, not masculinity, but their very own vibe that makes them just who they are. She paused at that and nodded and said she could get on board with that.

I'm used to a decade of seeing things that way. so to come home to west coast woo and fashion for butches being a clean pair of jeans and a black t-shirt without any stains on it, no make up and big huge boots... I kinda felt a loss for the myriad of diversity that was london. And thus a pretty diverse understanding of what it was to be who you were.

And to my suprise, what was considered bog standard girly dress fashion I was now being slapped with a qualifyier of "High Femme" - I hate qualifiers. I'm not even sure I particularly care for the term femme anymore because it's so loaded over here with expectations. I shrug at that. If that's how people see me, whatever. That's fine. But the second they start expecting me to be a particular way just because I hate flats, I love make up and wear a corset every chance I get, then I balk. And people do have expectations.

So I personally just call myself a girly girl or a dolly. Maybe a skirt sometimes. I find femme becoming to loaded now to deal with. When I was in a couple, it was fine. It didn't matter. But now that I'm single... I find people project a whole lotta "that's not me!" onto that word simply because their definitions come from their experiences and many people, their experiences are limited to a particular demographic locality.

Sometimes I opt for saying "women who are also boys -for lack of a better word- for me to expand on that would require discussions of concepts about their sexual preferences, sexual-self concepts, sex acts and habits." when people ask what I'm attracted to. Or if I'm in a mood to not expand, I just say "boyish-androgny with a bit of smart ass thrown in." I figure that covers it.

One gal told me "oh I'm boyish. I don't like shopping."
"neither do I darlin' and as you can see I'm quite feminine but I loathe it (clothes shopping)."
She kinda lost whatever it was she wanted to say and wandered off. Don't qualify it hun, it will only get you into hot water with double standards of gender task expectations.

just be it. You don't have to call yourself anything. I'll see you.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I hate qualifiers. I'm not even sure I particularly care for the term femme anymore because it's so loaded over here with expectations.

It has become a bore. I hate explaining that I am not who you think I am when I share the ID.

[imperfect_cupcake]

aurgh. you know people say shit like "oh ha ha ha, where's your purse?"
"oh but darlin, *you're* my purse." is how I sometimes gracefully step out of that while I silently judge the hell out the person for being a fucking moron.

you know... I may be pretty large city urban in my visual presentation of femininity but

1) fucking haaaaaaaaaaaate clothes shopping but I love scavanging for junk on the beach or the shores or the Thames
2) I never ever wanted to plan my own wedding. when my mother in law and sister in law wanted to "make suggestions" and "get involved" I said "you want it? take it. Please. I don't care what you do, I'm sure it will be beautiful. just leave me to make the cake and pick my dress, that's it." I was so happy to not have to deal with "a girls dream of planning their wedding." No way, thanks, I'll go piddle about with my mates and glue weird stuff into a lump that lights up.
3) I don't carry a purse if I can help it. If I do, it better have a mail bag type strap on it.
4) I am the one saving people from bugs.
5) you can do your own house work or get a house cleaner, I don't hoover and I'm not touching your dirty clothes.
6) I have always been the person in charge of the house finances, bills, contracts, repairs etc. I call the repair people, negotiate prices, argue with the phone company, keep the files and ensure the banking is done on time.
7) I am the one that sets up camp. The vast majority of my exes have never even put up a tent before. bugger off and quit hovering. Go get firewood (that's the dead stuff on the ground, yeah? Put that fucking hatchet down before you take your ankle off) or roll in some mud or carve your name into a tree or something.
8) I've been an apprentice white water guide, I've tramped through mangrove swamps chasing monkeys and getting shat on, AND I can open a beer bottle with my teeth. so ner, big boy.

I'm super pleasant. This is also why my exes have also been the type to roll their eyes and groan and tell me I love you babe but shut the fuck up. HAHAhahaha....

So just like any other gender, it does not dictate anything but an accent through which my body speaks.

I don't know if femme really is a useful term for me anymore. I wish it was, it's part of my history and my coming out, but I find it far more restrictive in other people's points of view. And it's really hard to keep telling people I'm an elephant when everyone on this side of the atlantic thinks that means I have fur and whiskers.

I don't know, I'm just having real doubts about using an ID in a way most people don't understand. there isn't much point.

[Licious]

I am enjoying this thread.

I also find that there seems to be a load of expectations with the term femme. Like I can't have a sort of tomgirlie side who likes to dig in the organic garden, or I have to be in heels all the time, event though where I live, most femmie straight girls live in sandals and jeans, as I do. Like I have to keep my nails long even though they bug me when I type and so I tend to keep them shorter. And so forth.

Subscribing!