In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[Cin]

(i know this is way too long, if you're pressed for time or just have better things to do with yours than read my ridiculously long post just jump to the last two paragraphs. I think that is all I really meant to say)

Butch femininity. Interesting term. You don’t hear that much. But to me femininity comes with the territory of woman, a territory where I happily reside. And within the territory of woman resides the identity of butch. So to me femininity and butch seem congruent, although you would be hard pressed to see the two terms used together in a sentence to describe the same person. Mostly we just can’t get enough of that butch masculinity combo. That’s where we usually devote our time and energy.

I have, over the years, spent a lot of time struggling against masculinity, in all its permutations, variations, configurations and presentations. Once upon a time I rejected my own masculinity. I have viewed masculinity as synonymous with misogyny. I believed the term good man was an oxymoron. I had men in my life I loved dearly, I even had a son, but I saw them all as anomalies. They were the few exceptions to the rule that men are patently unpleasant.

In the past to me, generally speaking, men, male, masculine meant nothing good for women, female, feminine, because there was no way to live in this society and not be taught to view male as superior to female. Unless you were raised by wolves or lived from birth under a rock, on some level, consciously or unconsciously, to one degree or another, you would believe male trumped female. And unless you did a whole lot of work on yourself, this notion is stuck in your head. So man, male, masculine will believe he is superior. He is not likely to be evolved. He won’t accept that he has male privilege and that this privilege affects women. He may not be exorcised of his misogyny.

My understanding of the male of the species was that men viewed women as lesser versions of human beings who were, or at least should be, subservient to them. Masculinity has more value, more currency, than femininity to men (and most women as well), and unless men are looking for something to fuck, it is another male whose company they seek. At best they were benevolent oppressors at worst violent and dangerous destroyers. All were dream killers.

No surprise that I found my own masculinity appallingly inconvenient.

I understood these feelings were problematic as well as stereotypical and would mostly alienate me from masculine people (not to mention make them want to punch me in the face). I spent a great deal of time working on this. I try very hard NOT to eliminate 50% of the world’s population from my circle of value based on their sex or gender alone. I am pleased to say that I have been marginally successful to date. Thankfully I no longer believe all men/male/masculine people are the devil (some are his minions though.)

However, easily the most difficult issue for me to deal with was my own masculinity. I went through a variety of head tilting and a plethora of mental gymnastic type strategies to try and be comfortable in my own skin. At one point I decided it was not female masculinity I embodied regardless of what it felt like. I was simply doing woman/female my own way. I decided I would not let the patriarchy define what it means to be a woman for me. I would define woman in my own image. And my definition of myself did not include any masculine identifiers. That worked to a point, but there was always the problem of how I looked. You know the old adage if it looks like a duck? Well, I looked a lot like a duck, still do. Anyway, there were a few other similar issues that arose as well. All of them were of the same general duck theme though.

Not only did I look masculine but I felt masculine in a lot of ways. Not all ways but enough ways so that I could tell the difference when I felt feminine. Which was way less than when I felt masculine. But I always felt female.

Most of the clothes I liked happened to be found exclusively in the men’s department. Not only men’s clothing attracted me though, mostly, but not solely. But regardless of what type of clothes I wore, I did not look like most people’s definition of feminine. Also, lots of the stuff that I enjoy doing is typically considered masculine entertainment, although some things that I enjoy fall squarely on the feminine side of the equation.

I suppose the problem is exemplified by this need to define most things in life using the duality mode of quantification. I think it would be better for everyone all the way around if we could universally as one single minded organism just stop doing that. LIKE RIGHT NOW. But I doubt that will happen. You might be surprised to discover just how ingrained this is in us to do, and in how many different ways we define things using an opposite for clarity and understanding. We understand something to be up because we are clear on what is down. We know how cold it is because we have experienced warmth. In addition to the duality thing, we also use gradation usually in terms of a hierarchy with the most masculine firmly entrenched in the top spot.

There are many people who were born female and are quite comfortable in their own masculinity. I wanted to relate but couldn’t. Regardless of all appearances to the contrary, I was not one of the boys. On the other hand I was quite comfortable in my femininity as long as I was allowed to express myself in my own way. Yet as much as I felt female, I would never be considered one of the girls. And there were always plenty of girls to remind me of how far short I fell. I was envious of other butches who were comfortable being fairly synonymous with man. I was never at ease with leaving woman behind. I always identified with being a woman and with other women. I love women. Looking back though, I have to say that overall they haven’t been that fond of me. Most women saw me as masculine and interpreted that as me trying to emulate a man and they hated it. Fortunately femmes find female masculinity hot. However, regardless of whether I was loved or hated, my masculinity would not be denied. I have a better chance of denying my femininity and I suppose upon occasion I have done just that. Femmes may find female masculinity hot but butch femininity, not so much. Although losing either diminishes me

There is a lot in it for a butch to claim their masculinity. Not only does it feel right, but femmes like masculine identified people. Most femmes are attracted to butches as well as a variety of other masculine identified persons. For a lot of femmes it’s female masculinity that is the attraction, or at least it used to be that way. It is changing to include various types of male energy, but there are still a lot of femmes who are attracted to butch energy. And for a lack of a better way to explain that energy, it is generally thought of as female masculinity.

Besides all the reasons that make it is a lost cause for me to deny my masculinity, it is also clear to me that not claiming masculine energy would not make me any less masculine looking to the untrained eye. I often wonder if it is this masculine look and energy that I have that makes it so jarring for others when I do feminine stuff. I have over the years had to remind people that I am indeed a woman, when they express surprise about my feminine attire or my desire to make jewelry, decorate a cake or organize my closet. Then I have to add that even if I wasn’t a woman I could still bake a cake or wear silk blouses.

Butch femininity is a puzzling terminology for me because butch is always a feminine identifier in my mind. But then I no longer shy away from the term feminine. I fought too hard to own it and define it my way. Not just female, but woman and feminine. It’s all mine. My birthright. My sex is female and because of that I am subject to all that means in our society. I wouldn’t have it any other way. My identifying as female was often looked at as suspect, like I was cheating in some way, like I was purposely refusing to display agreed upon conduct or refusing to look a certain way but stubbornly holding onto female as my gender. Because of that degree of difficulty for me to just be female, the identity of woman was always very close to my heart, something I refused to relinquish. There’s a look I sometimes get from guys when they realize I am a woman. They always looked kind of pissed like I was trying to put one over on them. I know if it was possible to strip woman from someone’s identity there are people who would have happily done that to me (either that or beat the masculinity out of me). I guess it just seems greedy to them to keep both.

The thing is it wasn’t purposeful on my part. I never chose to refuse to look like what society has decided a woman should look like. I never refused to do stuff women enjoy just to be stubborn. I had this silly idea I should just be true to myself and that would be okay. I also believed I was female and there was nothing I had to do to be that. I just was that. So being anything other than female just wasn’t an option for me. I am a woman and happy to be so. Consequently upon occasion I will do feminine things. Hell I know some guys that upon occasion do feminine things. Personally I think the problem arises from gendering inanimate objects, thinking processes and emotional responses.

I imagine that there are some people who exclude or distance themselves from butchness because they feel it doesn’t allow for feminine traits as the OP mentions. I certainly have felt I didn’t fit butch comfortably because of the masculine rigidity. Yet there is this undeniable masculinity thing going on with me and it’s hard to ignore. For me butch is kind of a storage space into which I can stuff all my gender variety. I can try it all on and not have to wear any of it permanently. I hate it when it feels like people are trying to shrink the space by not allowing masculine or feminine in it.

And I agree that there is a degree of shaming that is directed toward butches who identify with and are comfortable in their own femininity. I just don’t think it has that much of an impact because if you are butch and still identify with your femininity you are way past being moved by misogynistic bullshit. By necessity you would have developed a degree of self-assuredness that would render you somewhat bulletproof. Of course if it’s from a partner, a woman you are dating, or someone you are interested in, kevlar is not impenetrable.

In answer to the OP’s question about gender pressure from other butches and masculine people, I personally have experienced more pressure to amp up my masculinity from femme partners. Well, not so much to amp up, but I have experienced a degree of anxiety from some partners when I have dressed in women’s clothes. I am prone to do this upon occasion, either for a job or sometimes just because I feel like it. There has never been a time when female clothing has not been a part of my wardrobe, nor has their been a time when male clothing has not been a part of my wardrobe. When I was younger guys’ jeans fit me best because I am not well endowed in the hip/ass department. Women’s jeans used to look like I was wearing riding breeches. I have spread a bit though so I doubt that would be a problem. But anyway the point is gender bending in any form is anxiety provoking for some people to witness. Even if you are simply bending your gender back around full circle.

Anyway it’s probably obvious by the length of this post that I find the topic intriguing. I find any conversation or topic valuable that celebrates the fact that, for many, butch is not simply a synonym for male. Personally for me it has nothing to do with male at all. Masculinity? Yes, of course, certainly, at least to a degree. But that’s been done to death in my opinion. For me, delving into the identity of butch with the quantifiers of female, woman, feminine and/or femininity is always a treat especially because I don’t think it gets looked at with any depth, especially in regard to femininity. Mostly we just skim the surface of butch femininity (if we go there at all). I love exploring the feminine side of butch.

To me femininity isn’t all about looks, I don’t think it is about wearing make up or how you dress or throw a ball or any shit like that. It is about how you think. It’s about how you relate to the world, to yourself, to others. It’s about how you express yourself. I think it is a mindset and one needs to be able to separate truly feminine from what society teaches us to believe feminine means.

You can be female and own a masculine identity, just like you can be male and own a feminine identity. It’s not easy but it’s doable. There is even support and acceptance available from certain communities. But if you are female and claim a masculine identity and want acceptance and the easy road you need to turn your back on femininity. Gender is closely monitored and because of the shit that we have been fed since birth we unconsciously need ways to find congruency in our choices. Male/masculinity is highly valued and well guarded, the borders diligently patrolled so that if you straddle the edges you need to leave your femininity behind. You can gain access even with a vagina but you must denounce it in some way. At the very least you must denounce femininity. You can keep female. Maybe even woman, but you cannot flaunt femininity in the face of masculinity. I mean of course you can do it, but you will marginalize yourself even more than you already are. And we are pretty far out in those margins already. There is little outward reward for a butch to claim femininity. But for those of us who do claim it the personal rewards are well worth the negative experiences. I don’t know if I am being clear enough but this is so long already I probably should stop here.

[ProfPacker]

very poignant and well said. Thank you

[BullDog]

I have thought about this... I honestly don't see myself as very feminine at all. I am not trying to puff out my chest and say I am uber 100% masculine. I just don't see much femininity within myself. Perhaps others do, I don't know. No one has ever mentioned me being feminine or having a feminine side, but perhaps some do see that in me. I am very sensitive. I suppose some might see that as my feminine side. I do not. I am not mechanically inclined at all. A few femmes, including a former femme partner (no one from this site) have ridiculed me for it. If you want me to fix your car or build you a house, you are fresh out of luck. If you want me to prepare and file your taxes or write you a story, that I can do. I do consider myself most definitely female and woman. I am a masculine lesbian/queer female- for me that is what butch is. I definitely embrace my female masculinity and it definitely feels natural (subject of course to all the socialization I have received throughout my entire life). My masculinity is not tied to being male. I don't feel male at all. I am a masculine female.

To me, masculine and feminine are more about energy and mindset (thank you Tick). I don't think masculinity is solely "owned" by men nor femininity "owned" by women. It's hard to talk about because the qualities that I consider masculine are not easy to define, they tend to be fairly amorphous but at the same time unmistakable.

In butch femme communities, it seems there is a tendency to think if an FTM knits, he is an FTM who knits. If a butch woman or female identified butch knits, she must be a soft butch, not as butch as some others. There is nothing wrong if that term resonates with you, but it does seem to me to feel like "butch lite." I just get the sense if you claim female and/or woman there really isn't much room for you to express yourselves in ways that are associated with woman or femininity without getting sent down a few notches on the "butch scale." Of course, not everyone does this, but the butch continuum scale really does seem to be there in the background, and sometimes the foreground, at all times.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

[The_Lady_Snow]

P.S. - Regarding the if an FTM knits he's just an FTM that knits, I don't truly believe that to be true, gawd forbid weatherboi show any sign of doing anything perceived as *feminine* let's say like...

slave to a Femme Dom


He's not just a guy who is owned


He's reduced to sub human, dismissed, ignored, called a half of a person, so no sometimes even FTM's.boys.bois get shit for even having an ounce of perceived , assigned or imposed *femininity* It makes me irritable when it's broad stroked so much in these convos, I think we should leave that seperate because it's different kinds of struggles...

[Stronghealer]

My opinion : I do not like boxes- in any form.
I do not like when attributes are masculinized or feminized


I get that it is difficult to be a victim of society : it is scary to be yourself, especially with all these social constructs.
Be brave.
Be yourself.
Ask for support.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

When I was venting on the stereotypes thread, it was mostly about the expectations butches have placed on me. Not entirely, but mostly. I think that when butches who date femmes write, it's mostly about femmes.

Gender presentation is something we are desired for. We all want to be desired. And the people we date sometimes would like to make a few changes so we better fit their desires. Never a good thing, but quite common. Those are the times most of us feel gender policing or at least the times when it can wound most deeply.

So, I am going to have more stories about butches, and butches who date femmes are going to have more stories about femmes.

I do have stories about femmes who have policed me too. Again, when I first dated a femme in the r/t San Francisco butch-femme community, it was as if I had poured chum into a shark tank.

[Cin]

One of the things I find interesting about femininity is even if you just look at the straight community, not all women are thrilled to be called feminine. But I can’t say I’ve met a man who had a problem with being called masculine.

And for me it isn’t that only femmes perpetuate the problem, it’s that I only hear them. I don’t care that much what some guy says. When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me. Much more so than something a masculine identified friend would say. I could have phrased that better in my post. I certainly don’t think femmes or women are the problem. I think we are all victims of a patriarchal society. Women are harmed much more by misogyny than are men. It would be cruel and counter productive to lay the blame for misogynistic beliefs at the feet of femmes or women in general for that matter.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So is it competition?

Why is it that feminine gets squashed down and not celebrated?

I should of said the online common denominator so far in this thread is Femme's, if we (Femme's) are putting expectations of gender presentation and femininity is being squashed, isn't that a problem we should discuss?

Butches perpetuate it when they adopt very specific *masculine* markers as well. no?

Am I reading wrong? I only have these kinds of confusing conversations online about how butch is or should be, out here in real time butch is, well butch.

Wearing lip gloss doesn't take away from that, here (online) it seems to be different, it's almost like an anomaly in this venue, it's baffling, hence my earlier questions...

[stargazingboi]

"When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me."

Very true...the closer we are to someone the more the words touch us. Their words can build us up or break us down. Reflecting on my past, I indeed have many stories of comments made to me by femme's that hit me harder than things I observed in social settings because the relationship was closer with that person than the others. It is for that reason I would most likely be apt to use one of those stories as an example, because this topic is so personal.

However, I'm not sure that I personally can say that I have more stories of one than the other. I tend to think I personally have witnessed an equal number of masculine and feminine folks making judgmental comments regarding gender expression.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

When I see "perpetuating a problem" and "enabling expectations", what I am hearing is "blame". I may again be misunderstanding you but this is what is behind my response.

No one is responsible for my identity but me. I am who I am based on a combination of innate factors and life experiences. Life experiences have helped me to both define and refine that identity as I encounter things that feel right to me for me, and encounter things that dont feel right to me and for me.

Having said that, we still send messages to one another thru the things we say, how we say them, and where we say them.

What I find in the butch femme community is a blurring of sorts. We have mixed genders, and mixed sexual orientations. We also have a desire to be inclusive and accepting of diversity which, it seems to me, is supposed to be accomplished by blending into something generic rather than having respectful boundaries for distinct differences.

If we want to address it as a community, it seems to me, we need to be willing to walk the talk. If we want to celebrate peoples diversity, our language and behavior needs to reflect this. Not all butches are male. Not all butches are female. A transman is not the same as a female id butch, or a male id butch, or a transgender person. How can we celebrate diversity when we call them all "butch"?

Being respectful of boundaries is another way to address this community wide. We all need and deserve our own space regardless of how we id. There are issues that are unique to us and that space should be respected.

As a woman and a lesbian, I find it very intrusive when male id people find the need to make their presence known in a thread for lesbians. It has nothing to do with them. As a woman and a lesbian, it feels like a violation, voyeuristic, and indicative of male privilege and entitlement.

I feel the same way when I see male ids make their presence known in femme threads. Do you really want to have sexually suggestive comments made indiscriminately when you are talking about what makes you feel sexy? Or when you are sharing lingerie pictures?

I also feel the same for the trans threads. Transfolks do not need my opinions on their experience. It is their experience not mine.

Another way we can address boundaries, is to be mindful of the info we are sharing and its appropriateness to the topic at hand. Again, I am mindful of lesbian space, so when someone comes into a thread about the lesbian experience, addresses it, and then has to bring other ids into their response, it sends a message. To me, it is a "yeah but" message. "Yeah but" is an invalidating message.

Sometimes it is important to pull something apart, to see where its origins lie. I dont know that this is one of those things. Sometimes we just need to be mindful that everything we do and say or dont do and say sends a message to other people. What may be more important is are we aware of the message we are sending? And, are we sending the message we want to send?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I see "perpetuating a problem" and "enabling expectations", what I am hearing is "blame". I may again be misunderstanding you but this is what is behind my response.

No one is responsible for my identity but me. I am who I am based on a combination of innate factors and life experiences. Life experiences have helped me to both define and refine that identity as I encounter things that feel right to me for me, and encounter things that dont feel right to me and for me.

Having said that, we still send messages to one another thru the things we say, how we say them, and where we say them.

What I find in the butch femme community is a blurring of sorts. We have mixed genders, and mixed sexual orientations. We also have a desire to be inclusive and accepting of diversity which, it seems to me, is supposed to be accomplished by blending into something generic rather than having respectful boundaries for distinct differences.

If we want to address it as a community, it seems to me, we need to be willing to walk the talk. If we want to celebrate peoples diversity, our language and behavior needs to reflect this. Not all butches are male. Not all butches are female. A transman is not the same as a female id butch, or a male id butch, or a transgender person. How can we celebrate diversity when we call them all "butch"?

I have never equated butch to male or imposed male on butches, so if you could be clear who is perpetuating this?

Being respectful of boundaries is another way to address this community wide. We all need and deserve our own space regardless of how we id. There are issues that are unique to us and that space should be respected.

I am a fan of respected space.

As a woman and a lesbian, I find it very intrusive when male id people find the need to make their presence known in a thread for lesbians. It has nothing to do with them. As a woman and a lesbian, it feels like a violation, voyeuristic, and indicative of male privilege and entitlement.

I believe when this happens we have options to report or ask the people to leave or exit the convo, I know I have done this in the past in certain Femme threads.


I feel the same way when I see male ids make their presence known in femme threads. Do you really want to have sexually suggestive comments made indiscriminately when you are talking about what makes you feel sexy? Or when you are sharing lingerie pictures?


Honestly Kobi, this particular problem is just as much a butch problem as it is a male problem, the butches are no less guilty than the male id folks when it comes to being sexually inappropriate. I have been known to call on that, and it doesn't make me popular..


I also feel the same for the trans threads. Transfolks do not need my opinions on their experience. It is their experience not mine.


Another way we can address boundaries, is to be mindful of the info we are sharing and its appropriateness to the topic at hand. Again, I am mindful of lesbian space, so when someone comes into a thread about the lesbian experience, addresses it, and then has to bring other ids into their response, it sends a message. To me, it is a "yeah but" message. "Yeah but" is an invalidating message.

This particular issue is difficult for me because who gets to police who is lesbian or not? I know I was policed, so I chose dyke, how do we keep lesbians who are lesbians but other lesbians do not see them as lesbians out?

Sometimes it is important to pull something apart, to see where its origins lie. I dont know that this is one of those things. Sometimes we just need to be mindful that everything we do and say or dont do and say sends a message to other people. What may be more important is are we aware of the message we are sending? And, are we sending the message we want to send?

My questions and thoughts are in bold...

[imperfect_cupcake]

That's the thing. I like butches who are women. I like butches who are their own gender. I just can't equate sex (female or male) with gender (man, woman, butch, femme, bear, genderqueer, trans as gender). I personally get that a lot of my exes did not want to embrace the term "masculinity" because they felt it came with too much baggage. They wanted another word that was just for them and their gender. Which I get. I still personally have a residual twitch with the word myself. No, masculinity doesn't belong to men. The swastika actually doesn't belong to the nazis, it's eastern. But no matter how much I know that it means other things, the very first thing I think of when I see it, is hitler.
It's really hard, no, next to impossible, for me to say masculine without the same thing happening to me in my head. Probably why some butches struggle with the concept of being called feminine. They can't imagine femininity as any other thing than _______.

I tend to see most things as Nongendered to be honest. There are some things I cant help seeing as masculine but it's more an interplay between doer and item. than an actual "thing" ... I don't believe in "energy" or anything like that. I think it's a cop out word. What people talk about is movement, interaction. The way the body holds it's self we read as masculine or feminine. Because we were taught that. No other reason.

So my concept of "grace" like say the way Peter o Tool moved, crossed his legs, smoked and laughed, to me is ungendered but to someone else with a different back ground, less understanding of upper class British training of poise perhaps, would call it "faggy" or "effeminate" (feminine). Or tell me he has a "feminine energy about him" (argh... No he doesn't. You are talking about something you see, not an essentialist notion of being because it subjective. And if it's subjective, it CANT be essentialist)

Sorry bulldog I'm leaping off a word you used, not to get up your ass about it, but I see this "energy" word used all the time here used to describe and essentialist ideology about a persons being... And it's just not. It's the way they are viewed and for a reason the view has a bias toward. For example, the kids at school see me as having a "masculine" energy where as my friends see me as having a highly feminine "energy"

The kids at school mean : I'm assertive, I like to piss about with the boys, I like to talk about adventures, I laugh loudly and openly, I swear and am very confident about taking up space.

My friends mean: I dress very feminine, I flirt in a feminine style, I move my body in a feminine way. The kids at school don't see so much of that.

So which is it? Do I carry a masculine energy or a feminine energy? Could it be I don't have either and it's just how people have grown up with concepts and seeing those at the forefront of my behaviour? Probably.

I personally see myself as highly feminine because of certain traits and my love of feminine ritual.

I never put down a partner for doing anything they want that may be considered feminine. Go for it. Embrace it. Make it butch. I've seem butches pull off tiger striped bras and lip gloss. She also wore a disco silver lame soft ball jacket. She had MASSIVE huevos, that one lol... And no one Who knew her was ever in dispute about her being Butch. She has a presence of authority over herself. She dripped sex. Woof.

But yeah I have seen femmes and butches do it. Butches to the femmes and femmes to the butches. Mostly not with intent but sometimes incredibly so.

Mostly I feel pressure to be old school in my dating rituals in order to be desirable. I'm not. So I know my relative dateableness scale number is quite low. If I was more demure, quiet, giggled more, acted embarrassed and wanted someone to kiss me slowly and wrap their big strong arms around me and protect me...

I'm sure it would be easier. Alas. I am brassy, loud, and if anyone tell me what to do when I'm not naked, I get arsey. Plus I don't accept protection and care from people unless they have proved to me we have a caring friendship and hot sex. Oh well. My luck.

But yeah, I do feel a lot of pressure to conform in order to be desirable. So I get it.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My questions and thoughts are in bold...

I have never equated butch to male or imposed male on butches, so if you could be clear who is perpetuating this?

I believe when this happens we have options to report or ask the people to leave or exit the convo, I know I have done this in the past in certain Femme threads.

Honestly Kobi, this particular problem is just as much a butch problem as it is a male problem, the butches are no less guilty than the male id folks when it comes to being sexually inappropriate. I have been known to call on that, and it doesn't make me popular..

This particular issue is difficult for me because who gets to police who is lesbian or not? I know I was policed, so I chose dyke, how do we keep lesbians who are lesbians but other lesbians do not see them as lesbians out?

Those were your points.

What I hear in every one is "yeah but", "yeah but" "yeah but" and "yeah but".

Sometimes we lose sight of the forest because the trees are in the way.