In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[The_Lady_Snow]

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

[The_Lady_Snow]

P.S. - Regarding the if an FTM knits he's just an FTM that knits, I don't truly believe that to be true, gawd forbid weatherboi show any sign of doing anything perceived as *feminine* let's say like...

slave to a Femme Dom


He's not just a guy who is owned


He's reduced to sub human, dismissed, ignored, called a half of a person, so no sometimes even FTM's.boys.bois get shit for even having an ounce of perceived , assigned or imposed *femininity* It makes me irritable when it's broad stroked so much in these convos, I think we should leave that seperate because it's different kinds of struggles...

[Stronghealer]

My opinion : I do not like boxes- in any form.
I do not like when attributes are masculinized or feminized


I get that it is difficult to be a victim of society : it is scary to be yourself, especially with all these social constructs.
Be brave.
Be yourself.
Ask for support.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

When I was venting on the stereotypes thread, it was mostly about the expectations butches have placed on me. Not entirely, but mostly. I think that when butches who date femmes write, it's mostly about femmes.

Gender presentation is something we are desired for. We all want to be desired. And the people we date sometimes would like to make a few changes so we better fit their desires. Never a good thing, but quite common. Those are the times most of us feel gender policing or at least the times when it can wound most deeply.

So, I am going to have more stories about butches, and butches who date femmes are going to have more stories about femmes.

I do have stories about femmes who have policed me too. Again, when I first dated a femme in the r/t San Francisco butch-femme community, it was as if I had poured chum into a shark tank.

[Cin]

One of the things I find interesting about femininity is even if you just look at the straight community, not all women are thrilled to be called feminine. But I can’t say I’ve met a man who had a problem with being called masculine.

And for me it isn’t that only femmes perpetuate the problem, it’s that I only hear them. I don’t care that much what some guy says. When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me. Much more so than something a masculine identified friend would say. I could have phrased that better in my post. I certainly don’t think femmes or women are the problem. I think we are all victims of a patriarchal society. Women are harmed much more by misogyny than are men. It would be cruel and counter productive to lay the blame for misogynistic beliefs at the feet of femmes or women in general for that matter.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So is it competition?

Why is it that feminine gets squashed down and not celebrated?

I should of said the online common denominator so far in this thread is Femme's, if we (Femme's) are putting expectations of gender presentation and femininity is being squashed, isn't that a problem we should discuss?

Butches perpetuate it when they adopt very specific *masculine* markers as well. no?

Am I reading wrong? I only have these kinds of confusing conversations online about how butch is or should be, out here in real time butch is, well butch.

Wearing lip gloss doesn't take away from that, here (online) it seems to be different, it's almost like an anomaly in this venue, it's baffling, hence my earlier questions...

[Martina]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

] it's almost like an anomaly in this venue, it's baffling, hence my earlier questions...

Yeah, HB and Bulldog were talking about how it's only online. I do not -- or did not -- find that. I found some of all this in the r/t community -- though much less.

Example of r/t being better -- I attended a few femme posse meetings in the SF Bay area many years ago, and I know they had politics, but I was pretty unaware. What I did see was a new femme come into the group who had never worn makeup, but wanted to learn how. No judgement, lots of help. Lots of fun. A lot of those women had been andro dykes at one point. Many had not, but their world was full of people of every possible gender -- it's SF -- so there was no judgement.

Example of it being worse -- the incredible -- INCREDIBLE -- amount of "ewwing" and gagging and insulting comments I got when I dated a femme and continued to attend events -- it was mind-blowing. I don't care anymore, so I guess that's forgiveness, but I will never forget. Trashy behavior like I had never seen back home. People calling each other out on public streets. Fights over who talked to whose boyfriends/girlfriends. These folks weren't kids either. I don't know. There is some connection in my mind between extreme performance of gender and this drama-soaked environment. I didn't see it as much in leather or among dykes outside that community. Maybe it was chivalry gone bad.

[Play]

"Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine
people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to
*qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on
self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself
pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is
natural?"

In repsonse to the original post...

No, I do not feel pressure from butches or femmes to be anything other
than who I am. This could be due to the fact that my personality leaves
no room for criticism from others as to how I "do me". Not to imply that I
am insensitive to the feelings of others, but I am more sensitive to being
true to myself. I wouldn't be open to anyone projecting their ideals of how
I should act or dress onto me.

Come to think of it, I have made judgment of someone's "butchness".
After reflection, it really wasn't about "butchness" at all. But it had more
to do with how they morally or ethically conducted themselves instead of
appearance or mannerisms. Of course, that is a people issue not a
butch/femme one. As someone who relates the OFOS butch school of
thought, I find that label to be more relatable to people closer to my
age (50, very soon). With age and experience I find labels mean less and
less to me. In my interactions with folks, I look for the intent in their hearts.
When I was younger I might look at the outward appearance first....but now
I am more inclined to realize that the exterior has very little to do with whom
I am attracted to or connect with.

[BullDog]

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BullDog

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

I specifically did not quote you so not have this happen, I bounced off your post and I should of clarified (I usually do but I got lazy, that won't happen again)

I'm only trying to make sure that it's clear like you have above how masculinity/femininity are traits behaviours that do not belong to ANY specific gender.

Having one more than the other does not take away from whatever you (general) are.


I wanted to clarify, in case you were confused and thought my post was directed *at you*, it wasn't..

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

I don't know. I raised 3 sons and all of my son's had baby dolls and doll houses. They also had trucks. Bennie loved pink and wore it proudly. Jacob took dance lessons and Isa loved dresses. All three of my son's cry. They each show emotion. Two out of three are straight and one is a Marine. And my Marine still cries openly.

And I agree with many... This is an online thing happening. In the real world, does this really exist? I am sure for many - but not in my world. I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.

I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic).

[Okiebug61]

So I have a high school friend who is moving up in the Mary Kay world she has to do 100 faces before and after by the end of March to move up. She asked if I would come to her studio. She knows I have never worn makeup but they have skin treatment programs only. Not only did I go, I also let her put a light coat of makeup on just to have a good before and after. I did not freak, but felt good that I helped a true friend. The makeup was so light that Red did not even notice! After almost 53 yrs my attitude about boxing myself in has totally gone away. I refuse to be assimilated. I have ten right to be totally free!

[vagina]

I love for Butch to be all woman and to me that is femininity. That a Butch can be a woman and be proud of herself.

The muscles, button-up shirts and guys clothes and it's that the femininity that attracts me.

[stargazingboi]

"When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me."

Very true...the closer we are to someone the more the words touch us. Their words can build us up or break us down. Reflecting on my past, I indeed have many stories of comments made to me by femme's that hit me harder than things I observed in social settings because the relationship was closer with that person than the others. It is for that reason I would most likely be apt to use one of those stories as an example, because this topic is so personal.

However, I'm not sure that I personally can say that I have more stories of one than the other. I tend to think I personally have witnessed an equal number of masculine and feminine folks making judgmental comments regarding gender expression.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

When I see "perpetuating a problem" and "enabling expectations", what I am hearing is "blame". I may again be misunderstanding you but this is what is behind my response.

No one is responsible for my identity but me. I am who I am based on a combination of innate factors and life experiences. Life experiences have helped me to both define and refine that identity as I encounter things that feel right to me for me, and encounter things that dont feel right to me and for me.

Having said that, we still send messages to one another thru the things we say, how we say them, and where we say them.

What I find in the butch femme community is a blurring of sorts. We have mixed genders, and mixed sexual orientations. We also have a desire to be inclusive and accepting of diversity which, it seems to me, is supposed to be accomplished by blending into something generic rather than having respectful boundaries for distinct differences.

If we want to address it as a community, it seems to me, we need to be willing to walk the talk. If we want to celebrate peoples diversity, our language and behavior needs to reflect this. Not all butches are male. Not all butches are female. A transman is not the same as a female id butch, or a male id butch, or a transgender person. How can we celebrate diversity when we call them all "butch"?

Being respectful of boundaries is another way to address this community wide. We all need and deserve our own space regardless of how we id. There are issues that are unique to us and that space should be respected.

As a woman and a lesbian, I find it very intrusive when male id people find the need to make their presence known in a thread for lesbians. It has nothing to do with them. As a woman and a lesbian, it feels like a violation, voyeuristic, and indicative of male privilege and entitlement.

I feel the same way when I see male ids make their presence known in femme threads. Do you really want to have sexually suggestive comments made indiscriminately when you are talking about what makes you feel sexy? Or when you are sharing lingerie pictures?

I also feel the same for the trans threads. Transfolks do not need my opinions on their experience. It is their experience not mine.

Another way we can address boundaries, is to be mindful of the info we are sharing and its appropriateness to the topic at hand. Again, I am mindful of lesbian space, so when someone comes into a thread about the lesbian experience, addresses it, and then has to bring other ids into their response, it sends a message. To me, it is a "yeah but" message. "Yeah but" is an invalidating message.

Sometimes it is important to pull something apart, to see where its origins lie. I dont know that this is one of those things. Sometimes we just need to be mindful that everything we do and say or dont do and say sends a message to other people. What may be more important is are we aware of the message we are sending? And, are we sending the message we want to send?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I see "perpetuating a problem" and "enabling expectations", what I am hearing is "blame". I may again be misunderstanding you but this is what is behind my response.

No one is responsible for my identity but me. I am who I am based on a combination of innate factors and life experiences. Life experiences have helped me to both define and refine that identity as I encounter things that feel right to me for me, and encounter things that dont feel right to me and for me.

Having said that, we still send messages to one another thru the things we say, how we say them, and where we say them.

What I find in the butch femme community is a blurring of sorts. We have mixed genders, and mixed sexual orientations. We also have a desire to be inclusive and accepting of diversity which, it seems to me, is supposed to be accomplished by blending into something generic rather than having respectful boundaries for distinct differences.

If we want to address it as a community, it seems to me, we need to be willing to walk the talk. If we want to celebrate peoples diversity, our language and behavior needs to reflect this. Not all butches are male. Not all butches are female. A transman is not the same as a female id butch, or a male id butch, or a transgender person. How can we celebrate diversity when we call them all "butch"?

I have never equated butch to male or imposed male on butches, so if you could be clear who is perpetuating this?

Being respectful of boundaries is another way to address this community wide. We all need and deserve our own space regardless of how we id. There are issues that are unique to us and that space should be respected.

I am a fan of respected space.

As a woman and a lesbian, I find it very intrusive when male id people find the need to make their presence known in a thread for lesbians. It has nothing to do with them. As a woman and a lesbian, it feels like a violation, voyeuristic, and indicative of male privilege and entitlement.

I believe when this happens we have options to report or ask the people to leave or exit the convo, I know I have done this in the past in certain Femme threads.


I feel the same way when I see male ids make their presence known in femme threads. Do you really want to have sexually suggestive comments made indiscriminately when you are talking about what makes you feel sexy? Or when you are sharing lingerie pictures?


Honestly Kobi, this particular problem is just as much a butch problem as it is a male problem, the butches are no less guilty than the male id folks when it comes to being sexually inappropriate. I have been known to call on that, and it doesn't make me popular..


I also feel the same for the trans threads. Transfolks do not need my opinions on their experience. It is their experience not mine.


Another way we can address boundaries, is to be mindful of the info we are sharing and its appropriateness to the topic at hand. Again, I am mindful of lesbian space, so when someone comes into a thread about the lesbian experience, addresses it, and then has to bring other ids into their response, it sends a message. To me, it is a "yeah but" message. "Yeah but" is an invalidating message.

This particular issue is difficult for me because who gets to police who is lesbian or not? I know I was policed, so I chose dyke, how do we keep lesbians who are lesbians but other lesbians do not see them as lesbians out?

Sometimes it is important to pull something apart, to see where its origins lie. I dont know that this is one of those things. Sometimes we just need to be mindful that everything we do and say or dont do and say sends a message to other people. What may be more important is are we aware of the message we are sending? And, are we sending the message we want to send?

My questions and thoughts are in bold...

[imperfect_cupcake]

That's the thing. I like butches who are women. I like butches who are their own gender. I just can't equate sex (female or male) with gender (man, woman, butch, femme, bear, genderqueer, trans as gender). I personally get that a lot of my exes did not want to embrace the term "masculinity" because they felt it came with too much baggage. They wanted another word that was just for them and their gender. Which I get. I still personally have a residual twitch with the word myself. No, masculinity doesn't belong to men. The swastika actually doesn't belong to the nazis, it's eastern. But no matter how much I know that it means other things, the very first thing I think of when I see it, is hitler.
It's really hard, no, next to impossible, for me to say masculine without the same thing happening to me in my head. Probably why some butches struggle with the concept of being called feminine. They can't imagine femininity as any other thing than _______.

I tend to see most things as Nongendered to be honest. There are some things I cant help seeing as masculine but it's more an interplay between doer and item. than an actual "thing" ... I don't believe in "energy" or anything like that. I think it's a cop out word. What people talk about is movement, interaction. The way the body holds it's self we read as masculine or feminine. Because we were taught that. No other reason.

So my concept of "grace" like say the way Peter o Tool moved, crossed his legs, smoked and laughed, to me is ungendered but to someone else with a different back ground, less understanding of upper class British training of poise perhaps, would call it "faggy" or "effeminate" (feminine). Or tell me he has a "feminine energy about him" (argh... No he doesn't. You are talking about something you see, not an essentialist notion of being because it subjective. And if it's subjective, it CANT be essentialist)

Sorry bulldog I'm leaping off a word you used, not to get up your ass about it, but I see this "energy" word used all the time here used to describe and essentialist ideology about a persons being... And it's just not. It's the way they are viewed and for a reason the view has a bias toward. For example, the kids at school see me as having a "masculine" energy where as my friends see me as having a highly feminine "energy"

The kids at school mean : I'm assertive, I like to piss about with the boys, I like to talk about adventures, I laugh loudly and openly, I swear and am very confident about taking up space.

My friends mean: I dress very feminine, I flirt in a feminine style, I move my body in a feminine way. The kids at school don't see so much of that.

So which is it? Do I carry a masculine energy or a feminine energy? Could it be I don't have either and it's just how people have grown up with concepts and seeing those at the forefront of my behaviour? Probably.

I personally see myself as highly feminine because of certain traits and my love of feminine ritual.

I never put down a partner for doing anything they want that may be considered feminine. Go for it. Embrace it. Make it butch. I've seem butches pull off tiger striped bras and lip gloss. She also wore a disco silver lame soft ball jacket. She had MASSIVE huevos, that one lol... And no one Who knew her was ever in dispute about her being Butch. She has a presence of authority over herself. She dripped sex. Woof.

But yeah I have seen femmes and butches do it. Butches to the femmes and femmes to the butches. Mostly not with intent but sometimes incredibly so.

Mostly I feel pressure to be old school in my dating rituals in order to be desirable. I'm not. So I know my relative dateableness scale number is quite low. If I was more demure, quiet, giggled more, acted embarrassed and wanted someone to kiss me slowly and wrap their big strong arms around me and protect me...

I'm sure it would be easier. Alas. I am brassy, loud, and if anyone tell me what to do when I'm not naked, I get arsey. Plus I don't accept protection and care from people unless they have proved to me we have a caring friendship and hot sex. Oh well. My luck.

But yeah, I do feel a lot of pressure to conform in order to be desirable. So I get it.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My questions and thoughts are in bold...

I have never equated butch to male or imposed male on butches, so if you could be clear who is perpetuating this?

I believe when this happens we have options to report or ask the people to leave or exit the convo, I know I have done this in the past in certain Femme threads.

Honestly Kobi, this particular problem is just as much a butch problem as it is a male problem, the butches are no less guilty than the male id folks when it comes to being sexually inappropriate. I have been known to call on that, and it doesn't make me popular..

This particular issue is difficult for me because who gets to police who is lesbian or not? I know I was policed, so I chose dyke, how do we keep lesbians who are lesbians but other lesbians do not see them as lesbians out?

Those were your points.

What I hear in every one is "yeah but", "yeah but" "yeah but" and "yeah but".

Sometimes we lose sight of the forest because the trees are in the way.