In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[Okiebug61]

So I have a high school friend who is moving up in the Mary Kay world she has to do 100 faces before and after by the end of March to move up. She asked if I would come to her studio. She knows I have never worn makeup but they have skin treatment programs only. Not only did I go, I also let her put a light coat of makeup on just to have a good before and after. I did not freak, but felt good that I helped a true friend. The makeup was so light that Red did not even notice! After almost 53 yrs my attitude about boxing myself in has totally gone away. I refuse to be assimilated. I have ten right to be totally free!

[Play]

Originally Posted by Julie

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

When I read this post I understood it for what it truly was, a personal
experience. As a butch lesbian, I'm sorry you have gone through dealing
with that type of attitude. Please don't judge all by the actions of one,
some, or even many. We are all individuals. (As with any subset of the
population there are good and bad.)

The potential backlash one gets from posting their own opinion or experience
is one of the reasons I have avoided these discussions for so long. A frank
discussion with exchange of ideas, opinions, and experiences without
condemnation or judgment would be refreshing to me.

Also, it is damn near impossible to hear "tone" in a post here on the forums.
While my writing style is on the formal side. I am a goofy smartass who is
far more likely to make you laugh than evoke anger.

"Life and let live" "Variety is the spice of life." "It takes all kinds"....
(insert any other cliche here as long as it is accepting and inviting to
continue individual expression)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.

This why, in person, I skip the ID thing completely and just go to the bit that matters to me, that they see themselves as women or genderqueer on some level and that in the bedroom they have at least part time, a dick. Or have fantasies about it and would like to try it. That I am happy to perform all sorts and various things on their vaginas, if they see their bits that way, I am a lesbian as well as a queer, but I tend to say descriptive desire words for them like hard, stiff, etc rather than wet and if that upsets or offends them or makes them feel invisible then we shouldn't be having sex, it's a bad match as I don't wish to make them feel devalued for who they are.

I'm happy to fist, gspot stim, hand use a dildo, vibrator etc, but describing what I'm doing as penetrating a vagina, even though that's what I'm doing and bloody enjoying it, doesn't really get me there. I may enjoy the feeling of wetness with my fingers, but I don't really enjoy the words aurally. I'm also happy to be with certain kinds of stones. I'm pretty inclusive and happy with many types of gender and sexuality. I'm happy I'm fairly flexible about this. I wish I was more flexible with being a sub, but I have learned through trying that tips just not within my capacity, no matter how much I wish I was mostly a domme or a true switch. I would have so many dates if I could hook up easily with brat switch butches (60% brat bottom, 40% service top/Top/Dom)The hills are thronging with them.

Do I feel pressured by femmes to conform? No. When a femme on line talks about the correct way to be femme, I roll my eyes. When a bunch are talking about being treated like a princess or courted and woo'd and swept off their feet and sighing, I feel like an alien species but I know so many femmes in person that are boxers, mechanics, forestry rangers etc and who would find that somewhat absurd. The ones in person I do know like that are Dommes. They want to be worshipped and adored and they will give back in truckloads, all they hot dominant sex a butch could ever want.

On line I just feel very different. In person I sometimes do, but mostly not. A chunk more than I did in London. But really it's the butches that I feel not up to par with. Not the femmes. I watch all the fawning back and forth and feel quite lumpy and Lurch like. Because it seems people "get" that way of flirting in bf on line space. In person I piss ass about and smart ass and laugh and use dark humour. On line... I just can't do the flutter and giggle and shimmy and oh you big daddy you, can I sit on your lap... I just can't. It's so not me. So it looks contrived. It probably isn't for every who is doing it but for me it would be.

And like Martina, I don't describe my experience in life engendered. I don't do things because I'm a femme or because I'm a woman. Having someone tell me "oh you picked that table because you are a woman" makes me very irked. Or telling me the same thing because I'm femme. Equally irked. It is very hard to come back from a place where butch and femme and genderqueer and trans just *is* (something you be) rather than... Placed into the language so so so much. (,something you talk about and define. And talk about some more. And point out. And state. And reference. And attach to ordering coffee).

<:/

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

Julie, this is so incredibly offensive, hateful, and judgmental it is not even worth responding to.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

That's some ugly shit.

[Julie]

Because I speak my truth based on what I have seen or felt? I think it's really offensive as well to be placed in a box and told you are not welcome places or do not fit it.

Ya, that's some ugly shit.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Because I speak my truth based on what I have seen or felt? I think it's really offensive as well to be placed in a box and told you are not welcome places or do not fit it.

Ya, that's some ugly shit.

Pot, kettle?

Seriously and constructively though, I think it would improve the overall situation if the same degree of "tamping down" on controversial opinions were applied across the board.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Julie, this is so incredibly offensive, hateful, and judgmental it is not even worth responding to.

You did respond Kobi! Though under handed as it might be. Respond you did.

Offensive? Nah. - Just honest about my feelings.

Hateful? I don't hate lesbians. For god sake, I came out as one and celebrate that part of my history. I have just learned from online forums that dykes like me, don't really fit in with the Lesbian culture here, nor do many based upon what many have stated.

Judgmental? Ya, I'm tired of people telling people how to fuck, how to identify based on their fucking and what makes a butch BUTCH or femme FEMME. Not long ago in a far distant land, I read somewhere that femme's are bottoms.

Bulldog, I did not intend to imply that all Lesbians behave this way on this site. I am sorry if it felt like I was boxing all Lesbians together. My issue in the real world with Lesbians is how I have been treated (me) based on having nails or how I dress or the fact my partner is masculine. Or how many of my other friends have been excluded or judged based on their masculinity or how they identify.

And seriously, what is Lesbian sex anyway? I forget.

Play, thank you for recognizing immediately that I am typing behind a computer screen and you are not able to hear my tone.

I used to celebrate that I was a Femme Lesbian, until I was told over and over and over what that meant. Now, I am simply Femme, Dyke or Queer or all three of them wrapped into one. I also am comfortable with simply Gay.

And yes, these are my personal experiences and based on how I have seen others treated. Honestly Play, I could care less what you say about me (not you) at this point. I am so comfortable with how I live my life and love and make love and fuck and communicate. I think it becomes triggery for me, when I read that certain "subset's" of our culture are not welcome.

Imagine being the partner to a butch. You identify as a Femme Lesbian. You have been in this community for 20 years (example) and then all of a sudden, your beloved partner wants to transition. Not only is your partner shunned from the community, but you are now viewed as a heterosexual. This is hurtful and damaging. Who in the world nominated this Lesbian Task Force?

Tapu, who knows. Perhaps because I did not make blanket statements, such as Femme = Bottom. <shrugs>

Julie

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

Pot, kettle?

Seriously and constructively though, I think it would improve the overall situation if the same degree of "tamping down" on controversial opinions were applied across the board.

I prefer a Kettle!

Let's take a sensitivity class together Tapu!

[Medusa]

Ok folks, we are getting reports about this thread.

Julie - It's ok to speak about your own experiences, just don't generalize. You were fine until you said "Lesbians judge how we...".

All - There are some great examples in this thread of people engaging respectfully with Julie on what they thought was problematic about what she said about Lesbians and I'd prefer that if you are having a problem with something someone said, you engage with that person respectfully rather than cyber-slapping them. It's not productive and does nothing to further the conversation.

On a personal note, it is difficult to moderate discussions where people are talking about things they have experienced and how they perceive other people or other groups of people. Sure, people like to go "Well, if you insert "Femme" or "Trans" into that discussion then you'd moderate!!" but it is not that black and white.
This is Butch/Femme/Trans space. It's women's space. It is not exclusively Lesbian space just as it is not exclusively Femme or Trans or Butch space. The intention for this space, however, stands as Butch, Femme, and Trans space and we have GOT to be able to discuss the nuances specific to our community reasonably and as healthy as possible.

We have moderated a fair amount of folks for talking about what they have experienced in the Lesbian community and I have often felt really frustrated by that. Not because I don't think that we need to be very careful about making generalizations (of course this is important!), but because I have felt like it is somehow "taboo" to talk about the very real marginalization that Butches, Femmes, and Transpeople have experienced in the Lesbian community. It's especially frustrating when that conversation gets squashed in Butch,Femme, Trans space. Why? Because that's a very real conversation that is valid, truthful, and important.

The other thing that is frustrating is that people like Julie *who identify as a Lesbian* are being silenced from talking about their own community. I would be agog if I, as a Femme (who consequently identifies as a Lesbian as well), was being told by TPTB that I can't call it out when other Femmes marginalize me. Do we really want that in our community? Do we really want a lily-white, washed up for the masses version of history? Do we want sacred cows here?

Look, I'm not saying that Lesbians should be villified, or stereotyped, or generalized as "evil, humorless crustbuckets who slash and burn all things Butch, Femme, and Trans". That's bull and we all know it. We are all worthy of respect and I don't want the Lesbians in this community feeling targeted or disrespected just like I don't want the Butches, Femmes, Transfolks, and intersectionalized identities feeling disrespected.

With that said, can we all please agree that this is a valid discussion worthy of our best choices of words? Worthy of our best effort to speak from our own experience with specificity and in a way that honors this space and the discussion? And can we please follow some of the fine examples in this thread of debating with respect so that this discussion can continue without a bunch of acidity and unhealthy back and forth?

These discussions ("these" meaning any discussion that involves teasing apart gender and idnetity) always run the risk of offending one or multiple people. It's going to happen. We're human and our lenses are all different. Hopefully we can all commit to doing this with as much good will as possible so let's check our "stuff" at the door and work toward understanding one another. K?

Thanks,
Angie

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Tapu, who knows. Perhaps because I did not make blanket statements, such as Femme = Bottom. <shrugs>

Julie

Julie, what you said IS a blanket statement--that's the point some here are trying to make to you. Medusa, among others.

And not to put too fine a point on it, when I made my egregious statement, I was talking purely from my experience--a point I attempted to clarify and I think Medusa got.

[Cin]

I’m really confused. This thread is called “in celebration of butch femininity” and the OP asks about “how certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness. She asked if you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?“

How did this become about lesbians? How do lesbians pressure butches to be more masculine? I’m not saying lesbian should be a sacred cow or anything, but it feels more like they are scapegoats, I just don’t get how a conversation about lesbians fits in this thread. I certainly have never been pressured by lesbians to be more masculine. And this thread isn’t about the different ways that different types of people have pressured people in general. I’m sure I could come up with a list of people who have tried to pressure me into being other than I am but it would have nothing to do with butchness or this thread. Maybe I’m missing something so could somebody explain to me how lesbians pressure butches to be more masculine.

Originally Posted by Julie

I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.

I’m trying to figure out what is meant here. Would Dreamer find it difficult to share hys feminine side here because there is lots of judgment from lesbians, lesbian butches and female identified butches to be more masculine? Is that your experience? And judgment comes from female identified butches who are not secure in their masculinity so they have to pound their chests?

I know in my experience it is the more masculine identified people and those who love them that judge femininity in butches harshly. i have felt pressure from partners but nothing like the judgment i feel from male identified people. It just means more to me from partners. And I have never been pressured to be more masculine from lesbians or lesbian butches.

[Julie]

My quoting tool is not working Miss Tick, so I am going to do my best to reply.

I probably should not have commented on this tread, as I am not butch or trans. That is the first mistake I made.

I also probably should have rethought the statement about Dreamer, because I am not Dreamer. I should have left it at - I get to see that side of Dreamer. Not that it is feminine the way my feminine side is, because clearly we are different and that is what makes the relationship so beautiful for us. And perhaps feminine/masculine energy means something different to all of us. I do not equate male and masculine the same. Our real time friends, which include trans, MI Butches, Stone Butches and FI Butches, have never judged either of us based on our masculine or feminine energy. That really has come (my personal experience) from the Lesbian community that I have encountered. This is all my experience Miss Tick.

Let's say I have a friend who is trans and he lives his life as a male and he is a submissive bottom, there is an automatic judgment that is placed. And I can tell you, it is not made by other transfolk or MI Butches or most femme's for that matter. It is made by the chest pounding Lesbians that want their own space and don't recognize these people as having a right.

I can certainly see where my writing was confusing, in retrospect after reading, it confused me. So I thank you for asking. Sometimes I get a bit passionate and like all of us am not always concise in how I communicate. I thank you for not jumping down my throat and asking thoughtful questions.

As far as generalizing "All Lesbians," early in my writing. Not fair on my part to do so and I own this. Again, coming from an emotional and not a logical stance. I own it and I will learn from this.

Julie

[C0LLETTE]

I've been reading this thread and I am now utterly confused.
I come from a time when being a "lesbian" was a good and proud thing. When did this change and would someone please define "lesbian" for me so Ill know what to watch out for.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

I've been reading this thread and I am now utterly confused.
I come from a time when being a "lesbian" was a good and proud thing. When did this change and would someone please define "lesbian" for me so Ill know what to watch out for.

Ms Collette that is a WHOLE other thread....

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

I've been reading this thread and I am now utterly confused.
I come from a time when being a "lesbian" was a good and proud thing. When did this change and would someone please define "lesbian" for me so Ill know what to watch out for.

Kernerman English Learner's Dictionary

lesbian(noun)ˈlɛz bi ən
a woman who is sexually attracted to other women

Wiktionary

lesbian(Noun)
A homosexual female, a female who is sexually or romantically attracted to other females.
lesbian(Adjective)
Homosexual; preferring female romantic or sexual partners.

A non-chest-pounding lesbian here.

Honestly, I had been feeling really good about the acceptance I was feeling on the Planet for everyone the last few months.

For everyone.

[C0LLETTE]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ms Collette that is a WHOLE other thread....

Ok. Is there such a thread or does everyone else here just know what everyone else means when the term "lesbian" is bandied about. I see it here in this thread quite often and seemingly with only negative connotations so I began to wonder if that was central to the definition. I'd be happy to read up on this if you can suggest an appropriate thread.

[Parker]

I was going to write out a post, but since I am one of those dreaded female ID'd butch lesbians, my post probably would have been too judgmental, since, you know, all butch lesbians are judgy and shit.

Damn!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Kernerman English Learner's Dictionary

lesbian(noun)ˈlɛz bi ən
a woman who is sexually attracted to other women

Wiktionary

lesbian(Noun)
A homosexual female, a female who is sexually or romantically attracted to other females.
lesbian(Adjective)
Homosexual; preferring female romantic or sexual partners.

A non-chest-pounding lesbian here.

Honestly, I had been feeling really good about the acceptance I was feeling on the Planet for everyone the last few months.

For everyone.

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Ok. Is there such a thread or does everyone else here just know what everyone else means when the term "lesbian" is bandied about. I see it here in this thread quite often and seemingly with only negative connotations so I began to wonder if that was central to the definition. I'd be happy to read up on this if you can suggest an appropriate thread.

I know *I* would never be allowed to claim lesbian, and have been told I am not one, so I am unsure how this conversation is going to roll. I think that is what the problem is, some lesbians are being erased, or at least their pasts are or something is going on.

It's being policed, it has been policed and I believe that is a problem. *ME* personally, I don't care anymore, I gripped dyke claws and all and no one is taking that too, my gender (Femme) isn't gonna be erased. I use gay, and queer, but I always feel like I can never ever claim lesbian because I may fit the noun version, but sometimes I don't fit the adjective cause I like to fuck/date across the gender spectrum.(unless you are cisgender male then no way)


It's a tough one.

[BullDog]

Well, the way I see it there are chest thumpers in every group. I have faced more judgement and hostility in BF online communities than I in real time lesbian communities (have faced some there too)- most of it hasn't been from lesbians. There are judgmental people in every group. If you are going to get some hurtful feelings it's probably going to be from your dating pool and people who don't id the same way as you. It's not right no matter who does it.

It seems when lesbian complain about blanket statements, we are then told there needs to be room for people to talk about there experiences. I don't see any lesbians saying that all lesbians are perfect or that no lesbians have ever been judgmental. I don't get why it is taken to such extremes. There's people in every group that are judgmental and there plenty of very accepting and nice people in every group as well.