Obama's Health Care Overhaul: Your Opinions

[casey35]

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by casey35

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

So how much faux news do you watch? Did you not just read what Theo posted? That is the actual language of the law, it isn't a bill anymore it's the law. If one makes 250K a year or more, your taxes will go up, but not astronomically. If you make less than 250K a year your taxes will go down. Please stop and read the law before you quote the ignorance of faux news.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by casey35

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

Casey, again, I'm not picking on you, but I do see the fear in your posts, and yes, I want to see our gov't "live within its means" as much as you do. I don't relish the thought of our children, grandchildren, greats and on down the line, have to pick up the tab and be burdened with financial irresponsibility engaged in during our generation's tenure. This isn't what's going to happen with this legislation, however.

Please, PLEASE, read a little more about the financial impact and SAVINGS that health care reform NOW....THIS legislation, in particular, will generate, over the next two to three decades. We'll be saving our economy trillions of dollars.....ya, read that.....trillions. Did you know that many of the points listed in my post above that comprise this law were actually originally proposed by more than one conservative Republican "think tanks" in recent years gone by?? Mitt Romney (conservative Republican), when he was Governor of the State of Massachusetts, revamped that state's health care system by implementing many of these very same principles and required each and every citizen of Massachusetts to purchase health insurance. He did the very same thing that this national law does, only on a state level and it's been extremely successful in that state, not to mention the savings it has made in that state's budget.

I'm not, in any way, trying to discourage your opinion. I think it's wonderful that you have one on this issue, because so many folks are undecided. That's okay. All's I'm asking is that you have an educated opinion, and not one borne of fear, lies and misinformation. Really, research it!!! At least keep an open mind and read more. You might be (pleasantly) surprised.

~Theo~

[Linus]

Originally Posted by casey35

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

What about those that can't work (e.g., many soldiers coming back from various locations are suffering PTSD), cannot find work (many people are more than willing to work but can't even find the simplest of jobs) or have retired from work finally (however, many are going back to work because they can't afford to retire)?



The reality is there will be no one single answer that will address everything nor will it be solved in a year. We cannot end up back in the 1950s where prosperity seemed endless. Society has drastically changed thanks to advertising (increased our consumerism beyond what, IMO, we really need), the internet (communication -- both medium and language -- has changed drastically), cultural advances, etc. I think as long as we don't lose our humanity, things will work out in some manner (we may not know what it is now and it may be vastly different in the future but we should try to avoid losing our hope and optimism in general).

[key]

The saddest part for me is to read on here where another lesbian, another poor person has come to believe that instead of reaching out to help each other we must fight like dogs over the scraps of bone that the fat cats toss us from time to time.

This is exactly how the rich and greedy want us. So desperate that we come to fear that working together, helping each other, yes even sacrificing for another will somehow threaten our very safety, and the little bit of almost nothing that we have to work so hard to get and maintain. Americans attacking other Americans for being "lazy ass." The ole Ronald Reagan Welfare Queen myth alive and well. The other side of that myth is that the rich people among us "earned" all their obscene wealth. (gag)

I was raised to believe that many hands make the load lighter. That I am not an island, that I actually need other people, and that they actually need me. That is called community, society, and working together towards a bigger goal than any one of us could attain on our own it is not a bad thing.

I was raised to believe that the citizens of this country ARE the Government. This great American Experiment of a Government Of the People, For the People, By the People is not some legend. It is alive (though barely breathing thanks to the rich raping and pillaging it for the last 30 years - thanks Reagan and every President since) But we can revive that great American Spirit that founded this country, that ordinary citizens can create a government (many hands working together) that meets the needs of its citizens as outlined in the Preamble.

1)Form a more perfect Union (Federal Standards while respecting states rights)

2) Establish Justice (write and enforce these standards, and have an equal and fair justice system)

3) Ensure domestic tranquility (no prejudice, no hate, minority rights not trampled by majority)

4) Provide for the Common Defense (this is the only one the cons want you know about)

5) Promote the General Welfare (yes, gov. supporting ways to have basic needs met - education, food, shelter, and health care)

6)Ensure the blessings of Liberty (when basic needs are met people are free to experiment, to grow, to innovate, to be entrepreneurial)

Roosevelt said it best when he said. We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

[Kobi]

Thank you for key for breaking the issue down to something we all need to keep in mind.

Being notoriously behind the times, I was watching Michael Moore's "Capitalism" today. As he probed, albeit drama and all, into the financial sector and its pervasive effect on the government which ends up dumping on the little guy, I was feeling a similar scenario in relation to health care.

The financial sector wanted us to believe that their mortgages and deriatives and other instruments of control over our lives and freedom were beneficial to us. The federal treasury helped the cause and led the bailout when it was on the brink of supposedly collapsing by dipping into the pockets of the taxpayer not once but twice throwing us into unprecidented debt.

Now, we have a President who wants change in health care - a laudable and welcomed idea. And, he turns to financial folks and the health care lobby to devise something plausible for all. Somehow, to me, asking those who created the problem to solve the problem makes me automatically suspect of the process and the final result.

I love the idea of every American having health insurance or the right to be sick without the fear of bankruptcy. But I fear we will be facing the same game playing and slight of hand tactics as we did in the financial industry.
The rich and well to do seldom willingly give up potential profits without some tricks up their sleeves.

Specifically, I expect we will find, if it is not already occuring, our insurance companies taking out life insurance policies on us. They already know what our state of health is. It is a suckers bet to sure up the bottom line with hefty death payments.

The misstatement of costs associated with this program is misleading as well. It is common knowledge that what Congress passed is very similar to what is already in use here in Mass. And the folks in Mass will tell you they had no idea of how quickly the subsidized program would grow. They would tell you that thousands of small businesses dropped their employee coverage. Why? They could have paid $6-10,000 per employee for insurance or a $500.00 per employee penalty. Seems like a no brainer to me and to them. So suddenly the program almost doubled overnight.

With insurance comes the freedom to seek care and seek care is what people did. The cash register was open 24/7.

The costs were growing so fast, and the tax base was shrinking thanks to the economy, so we had a $1.00 a pack increase on smokes, increased the sales tax, increased fees for unrelated programs, upped the premium costs to participants to almost double (still a bargain tho), increased co-pays etc.

Common sense says you can't enact something like this without some financial fallout. And the projections of costs by government pundits looking to ease the pain by manipulating the figures isn't the least bit reliable. It's a vicious cycle....income has been stagnant for decades, costs are skyrocketing, disposable income is an outdated concept. Getting something for nothing aint real folks.

I also fear with the proliferation of gene based illnesses and diseases, that if we can't find a way to fix them, we may seek other, less palatable ways to eradicate the costs associated with them.

And, most of all, the social worker in me, fears that we, as a society, have become very complacent, very willing to look the other way as long as our standard of living remains untouched. We, are willing to remain silent when our officials circumvent the Constitution, when they ignore the laws and checks and balances that were built into the system, and when they deliberately refuse to act when the handwriting is on the wall. And, I worry that we will see more people getting angry with one another rather than putting their anger where it belongs.

I love health care for all. But, I am hesitate to believe all the rhetoric that surrounds what was passed. Time tends to prove one way or another what truth is. Personally, if they had a devirative on the bill and the costs it will impose on society, I'd sink every dollar I have right now into it..... cuz I'm willing to bet there will be a short lived peak before the reality plunges use deeper into debt. And the insiders will make a bizillion bucks both at the peak and during the bailout....just like they did in finance.

Now, I must go temper my rising blood pressure and quell the acid building in my stomach.

[casey35]

Originally Posted by key

The saddest part for me is to read on here where another lesbian, another poor person has come to believe that instead of reaching out to help each other we must fight like dogs over the scraps of bone that the fat cats toss us from time to time.

This is exactly how the rich and greedy want us. So desperate that we come to fear that working together, helping each other, yes even sacrificing for another will somehow threaten our very safety, and the little bit of almost nothing that we have to work so hard to get and maintain. Americans attacking other Americans for being "lazy ass." The ole Ronald Reagan Welfare Queen myth alive and well. The other side of that myth is that the rich people among us "earned" all their obscene wealth. (gag)

I was raised to believe that many hands make the load lighter. That I am not an island, that I actually need other people, and that they actually need me. That is called community, society, and working together towards a bigger goal than any one of us could attain on our own it is not a bad thing.

I was raised to believe that the citizens of this country ARE the Government. This great American Experiment of a Government Of the People, For the People, By the People is not some legend. It is alive (though barely breathing thanks to the rich raping and pillaging it for the last 30 years - thanks Reagan and every President since) But we can revive that great American Spirit that founded this country, that ordinary citizens can create a government (many hands working together) that meets the needs of its citizens as outlined in the Preamble.

1)Form a more perfect Union (Federal Standards while respecting states rights)

2) Establish Justice (write and enforce these standards, and have an equal and fair justice system)

3) Ensure domestic tranquility (no prejudice, no hate, minority rights not trampled by majority)

4) Provide for the Common Defense (this is the only one the cons want you know about)

5) Promote the General Welfare (yes, gov. supporting ways to have basic needs met - education, food, shelter, and health care)

6)Ensure the blessings of Liberty (when basic needs are met people are free to experiment, to grow, to innovate, to be entrepreneurial)

Roosevelt said it best when he said. We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

Dear Key, what saddens me is that some other person is judging me on my opinion, someone who does not even know who I am. I have opened my home to those who need help no matter who or what they are. I am done discussing this matter. I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by casey35

Dear Key, what saddens me is that some other person is judging me on my opinion, someone who does not even know who I am. I have opened my home to those who need help no matter who or what they are. I am done discussing this matter. I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion.

No one is judging you, get off the pitty party and stand up for what you say you believe in. You espouse that which has been proven to be wrong and now you want to play the I'm being judged card. it doesn't fly. Opinions are a dime a dozen, facts are just that facts.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Corkey

No one is judging you, get off the pitty party and stand up for what you say you believe in. You espouse that which has been proven to be wrong and now you want to play the I'm being judged card. it doesn't fly. Opinions are a dime a dozen, facts are just that facts.

Actually, she was judged. I don't blame her for wanting to step away from the conversation. Her first judgement was that she was racist. She apologized and it wasn't enough.

I have had this conversation on this site before and will not subject my home to it again. Be clear. Not coming to defend anyone. Just noting that yes, she was judged. Please go back and read it all from the beginning.

Sometimes a healthy distance gives us all a better perspective. I try not to judge folks who have a different experience in life than I have had. I try not to judge folks who say things with words that don't sit well with me. I try. Sometimes I fail to make my point clearly or concisely without ruffling feathers. I guess if I put myself out there, then I am due my own lil ass whooping.

If someone tries and feels they have failed and says they need to step aside, that should be honored and enough. Just my opinion.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jess

Actually, she was judged. I don't blame her for wanting to step away from the conversation. Her first judgement was that she was racist. She apologized and it wasn't enough.

I have had this conversation on this site before and will not subject my home to it again. Be clear. Not coming to defend anyone. Just noting that yes, she was judged. Please go back and read it all from the beginning.

Sometimes a healthy distance gives us all a better perspective. I try not to judge folks who have a different experience in life than I have had. I try not to judge folks who say things with words that don't sit well with me. I try. Sometimes I fail to make my point clearly or concisely without ruffling feathers. I guess if I put myself out there, then I am due my own lil ass whooping.

If someone tries and feels they have failed and says they need to step aside, that should be honored and enough. Just my opinion.

If she feels so judged then maybe it's best she remove herself from the thread. The parting shot of " I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion." is pure pitty me BS. It's manipulative and high school angst.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by casey35

Dear Key, what saddens me is that some other person is judging me on my opinion, someone who does not even know who I am. I have opened my home to those who need help no matter who or what they are. I am done discussing this matter. I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion.

You have a right to your opinion. Other people have a right to an opinion *about* their opinion.

If you believe you are right--and you clearly do--then convince us. Show that your position is better thought out, more coherent and has greater internal consistency. People *can* be convinced, but throwing tantrums and crying about your rights to free speech isn't a convincing argument.

[AtLast]

There is NO GOVERNMENT take-over of health-care in the US!! The health-care companies remain the SAME PRIVATELY held and run companies! If you are not covered in the VA system, your health-care is NOT PUBLIC. Yes, we all will be required to buy health insurance and the health-care industry is going to have more restrictions put upon it. Since they make over a 400% profit, I don't think any of this is going to hurt them! Now, the CEO's might have to take home a smaller multi-million dollar (or billion dollar) bonus, but I'm sure they can still pay their bills. Oh, and shell out for lobbying against a public system that would not only benefit everyone, but cost less!!

Overall, I am not against a profit-driven industry. However, what is it that some do not understand about the relationship of an inflated profit margin in the health-care industry to the continuing increase of medical care? And how this actually ends up in higher taxation and a larger national deficit in the long-run? I am in no way an economic wiz at, but even I can put this together. Also, the private healthcare industry will be receiving millions more customers under this reform plan without any competition from a public system at all. Not really a lot of reform going on. I guess some will twist this around in terms of existing programs such as MediCare. Funny how the likes of tea baggers don't want anyone messing with their MediCare!!!

The GOP and major private heal-care companies has done an excellent job of brainwashing, haven't they? You know, the elected Republican folks sitting in DC are also part of the GOVERNMENT!! In fact, they have quite a nice benefit package that we all pay for and will continue to do so when they retire. They do have Cadillac health-care benefits paid for by taxpayers directly. So, the rest of us shouldn't have this same coverage and access?

I just can't stand it that there still exists people that believe that health-care reform is a government take-over!! If you only want the private sector involved in health-care, OK, just say so and demonstrate the economic and social advantages, but stop all of the anti-government conspiracy BS.

I pay my way too and have no problem with chipping in taxes for the greater good. Sure, I don't like those that take advantage of things, but, frankly this is a very small number!! A healthier population leads to a healthier economy! And now there is actually some kind of mechanism requiring people to get healh insurance and leveling out things some.

And I am fed-up with swipes about people don't work! As someone else stated, poor people work harder than ought to be allowed! Hell, these days, look at how many people are working 2 or 3 jobs to make-up for job loss. And I'll gladly support someone that is getting themselves clean and sober in going to school or getting other employment training.. and I'll help foot the bill for their kids, too!

[Toughy]

Aj........I am always astonished at your ability to break it down............

I think the crux of the question is this:

Is health care a right or a privilege?

I think it is a right, therefore I think a single payor (government financed) system is the only Constitutional way to provide health care.

Each individual pays taxes.........those taxes pay for what we believe are rights............roads, the library, police, fire, infrastructure which used to be sewer, electrical, prison, roads, communication, and shit I can't even imagine (remember the internet was not on my radar 25 years ago).

Medicare has some serious issues..........that's because Republicans don't believe government works or is a good idea and they set up Medicare Part D to fail and to bankrupt Medicare. Republicans have been passing laws that insure the government will fail since Reagan. If you set it up to fail............it will fail............

By the way...........I am one of those single payor beneficiaries ............a recipient of true socialized medicine.......I get my health care from the VA.......

if the VA system is good enough for me and my sister and brother veterans...........then it's good enough for Joe the fucking fake plumber..........

mmmmmmmmmmmm................not sure where I am/was going with this...........so......I'm out for now...........

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by casey35

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

I'm curious, how much are you willing to cut defense spending? How many years are YOU prepared to spend away from YOUR family and friends fighting in some country that you may not have known existed a year before you got shipped there? Because someone is doing that job, and it most likely isn't you, and you ARE depending upon someone else to do that.

Why is it that we can spend any amount of money you mention on defense but we begrudge even public education!

And our country was *not* founded on 'self-reliance'. You will not find self-reliance in the Constitution nor will you find self-reliance in the Declaration of Independence (yes, I checked). If we were founded on self-reliance may I ask why the Benjamin Franklin said, "we must all hang together, or surely we will all hang separately". Doesn't sound very "I got my liberty, too bad about yours you lazy ass" to me. If we were founded on self-reliance, why did the founders create a postal service or the first public library system? If we were founded on self-reliance why did we create a public education system?

We are not orangutans, Casey. If we were, your philosophy would be perfectly in keeping with the nature of our species. Orangutans have minimal contact with one another and spend most of their time alone. But we aren't orangs. We are a social primate.

Years ago, E.O. Wilson, the great entomologist, was asked what he thought of communism. His response was, "great idea, wrong species". Well, I would say that the same applies to libertarianism, great idea, for orangutans, but not the right system for our species.