It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I heard on NPR last night that even Karl Rove and Jeb Bush thinks it is unconstitutional, the ACLU is bringing suit as well as many others.

Well, that's good and heartening to hear. I have my fingers crossed that this ridiculous law will be quickly overturned.

It just didn't sound right to me and seriously smacks of being unconstitutional.

It's....well.....Un American and seems to go against the very principles that this country was founded on.

~Theo~

[Medusa]

June brings up an interesting parallel.

I did some research on my heritage just out of curiosity over the last few years. After finding several branches of different heritages for my family (that included Ouchita and Blackhawk First Nations, as well as Irish and Scottish descent, and even several African American ancestors), I decided to start researching each branch in order to get a clearer picture of who I am made of.

When I went into depth researching my Irish heritage, I came across an account of a woman who would have been some degree of cousin to me who came over here from Ireland during the famine in 1846 (or thereabouts). People were starving to death, there was no work, and according to what I read, this distant relative of mine was *alone* when she made the journey. She *also* apparently gave birth within a month of arriving here in America, which meant that she was HUGELY pregnant when she was crammed in steerage, rocking on a dirty, disease-ridden boat.

The accounts of what I found are pretty shady for a few years after she arrived but I did find that she somehow made her way to the Virginia area and worked as some type of servant.

There are a LOT of historical writings that talk about the foul treatment of "The Irish" (and many other cultures) who arrived here in America around that time. How they were shaved because of headlice, how they were exploited for cheap labor, how the women were often raped or ended up working as prostitutes to support themselves.

And honestly? "My People" haven't been here that long. Since 1846? Thats about 150 years...NOT a long time. A few generations at most.

I could be considered a white "anchor baby" if this country were full of brown folks in power who were using their privilege and racism to try to keep hold of their power like I see a lot of white people and "The System" doing.

I think that I would personally like to see the Tea Partiers, Republicans, White folks, or anyone else who screams "this is my country" the loudest do a little research on exactly where they came from. Because last I checked? This "country" was inhabited by Indigenous Peoples who were brown before a bunch of white folks started coming over here claiming they "discovered" a continent that had been inhabited by brown folks for thousands of years.

I would like to see all of us remember that this country was built on the premise of immigration and "a better life" for anyone who wanted it. Sure, the immigration system is broken in 100 different ways but a great many of us are only three, maybe even two or one, generation away from "Illegal Immigrant" ourselves.

[MsDemeanor]

Just an FYI....there seems to be a misguided boycott drive against AriZona Tea. That company was started by a couple of guys from Brooklyn, and it's always been in NYC.

AriZona Teal has zero zip zilch to do with the state of Aizona, it just has an unfortunate name.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by theoddz

This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"??

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~

Here is some more info on that:

http://www.nilc.org/pubs/news-releases/nr010.htm

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

I have never driven across the borders, I have always flown or taken trains, it seems to me when we flew, we showed our passports, just as we do in the states, but I don't recall having to do that when we bought tickets to go from Koln to Amsterdam, Paris to Koln.

Perhaps if we had been riding in a van, things would have been different.

When we traveled to Mexico last year, there was a checkpoint to get into the neighborhood enclave on the beach we were staying at, and then when we crossed the Penninsula to go see some ruins. In all cases, the guards had Machine guns. It was an odd feeling to be somewhere that it was business as usual.

I will never go back to Mexico. Sure, it was beautiful, but when traveling from our rented house, we passed by so much poverty, shanty towns built out of whatever people could find. I have never witnessed anything like it here in the US. And I didn't feel like the money we spent down there was actually helping anyone that really needed it.

Is it our fault the Mexican (and other South American) governments are so corrupt and fucked up? No. But as a human being, I have no problem understanding why people want to come here to get away from it. Probably the same reasons some of my ancestors escaped from the crushing poverty of Ireland and Scotland via Steerage, which may have been the equivalent of a Van in the 1800's.

I wish we (the collective we) could put this into a human perspective. It's not like people from South America are doing this as a lark (coming to America), no one with other options would choose to ride in the back of an unventilated truck crammed in with dozens of others, or risk being shot or getting lost while crossing a desert unless they were truly desperate.

This mentality of "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away" makes me sick.

Alas, though you and I personally are not responsible for the poverty to the South of us, it is the fault of the US, both diplomatically and economically.

I don't have time to locate the sources to quote right now, but American Companies looted those countries and the US goverment has meddled way more than the CIA would have you know.

Also, sadly, there are places that poor in the USA, some of them in my state.

I agree completely that no one back in the 1800's or now takes leaving their home to come to the US lightly. I think it sucks to hear that so many people do not/did not welcome them.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

Apoc -- You are right and I totally glossed over this. Let me see if I can get Kat in here, we have had this conversation in our house a few times and she is way more savvy on the ins and outs of international politics than I am. I'm all about the touchy/feely human stuff.

cool!

Most of the problems the US has now are self created which for me is why I makes me even more brokenhearted when people like you said think "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away"

[Kat]

I've read so many excellent pieces about the rise in "illegal" immigration from Mexico, resulting from the many inherent flaws in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), signed into law by my buddy, Bill Clinton, in 1994.

Unfortunately, my powers of recall are virtually non-existent. But I do know that NAFTA essentially forced Mexico to import more agriculture products from the U.S. like corn, soybeans, wheat, etc. that they grow themselves just fine, but that happen to be HEAVILY subsidized by the U.S. government, and thus are much, much cheaper.This basically wiped out the already-struggling poor Mexican farmers, which is one of the primary causes of increased immigration in the last 16 years. Before Bill Clinton...I mean, NAFTA...you didn't hear about people dying in the desert in the hope of making it to the land of hope and dreams for a better future. Nobody was talking about building walls to keep people out, either. NAFTA definitely started the ball rolling...

(Pretty good summary of NAFTA and its flaws from CounterPunch this past January: http://www.counterpunch.org/gallagher01012010.html)

But the fact that Arizona has been one of the states hardest hit by the U.S. housing collapse has led directly to this crazy new law there. Folks in AZ have lost their houses at an alarming rate, and who is always to blame at times like this, when everything is going to hell? THOSE people -- "it's THEIR fault I don't have a job, it's THEIR fault my house has lost 75% of it's value! Them and the GAYS! Let's get 'em!" A story as old as time itself...

(Article from Salon yesterday about the British Prime Minister calling a constituent a bigot, but makes a broader point about how bad economic policies lead some people to lash out at others different from them, and also mentions Arizona: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...ion/index.html)

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you Kat! Yes indeed.

But US meddling goes wayyyy father back.

The US and US companies have meddled in pretty much all of South and Central America since there has been a US.

United Fruit Company, UFCO, owned huge tracts of land in the area of now is (to mention a few) the Bahamas, Cuba, Costa Rica, Columbia, Ecuador, Jamaica, Guatemala, etc. They built and controlled 100% of transportation and communication in these countries and established who ran them and who got to work.

The Panama Canal, we took the land from Columbia and created the Canal Zone, which only recently was allowed it's independence.

Cuba? Between UFCO and organized crime (Mafia), Cuba is now communist because of the US. Period.

Honduras?

Nicaragua?

Chile?

Argentina?

The CIA and the US government in my lifetime has been all up in coups and trying to run everything.

The raping of these countries has gone on for 200 years, and we now want to harass everyone with brown skin who "might" be from a country we destroyed for their papers. Papers some think it should not be a big deal for them to carry and use as examples Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and North Korea.

I really am almost (heh) speechless.

OK OK, I actually could go on and on about why the problem of undocumented workers from Mexico, the Caribbean, Central & South America is the fault of the USA.

The US created the mess and the US needs to fix it.

The war on drugs in not the answer.

The war on undocumented workers not the answer.

War makes it sound like there is an enemy which should be defeated...but the enemy is and has been the US in this disaster.

Don't make me pull out my US Diplomatic History textbook now....

[UofMfan]

We could start a whole new thread on what Kat and Apocalipstic have brought up.

I have one author to recommend, Noam Chomsky, the man is a genius, if anyone wants to expand their horizons and see how far back this began.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

We could start a whole new thread on what Kat and Apocalipstic have brought up.

I have one author to recommend, Noam Chomsky, the man is a genius, if anyone wants to expand their horizons and see how far back this began.

Or we could go back to my ill fated thread on why it is arrogant for people in the US to call ourselves "American", like we are the only ones who are.

Sorry for the derail!

I hope this new law is stomped out as unconstitutional as quickly as possible, and the people of Arizona can get back to their lives.

[Soon]

Immigration is Most Definitely a Feminist Issue

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Or we could go back to my ill fated thread on why it is arrogant for people in the US to call ourselves "American", like we are the only ones who are.

Sorry for the derail!

I hope this new law is stomped out as unconstitutional as quickly as possible, and the people of Arizona can get back to their lives.

Oh God no I almost lost my lunch in that thread.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Immigration is Most Definitely a Feminist Issue

What a great article, thank you so much for posting it. I have been so angered by all te other elements of this, that I have forgotten the feminist angle and how women are more targeted and way more likely to be raped.

Also, it talks about the history of the Southwest.

Very interesting! Thanks again!

[Andrew, Jr.]

It was announced on the local 5pm news here that the same law that was signed in Ariz. is being considered to be a new law in Maryland. There is going to be a poll taken by the state senate next week. Fuck.

[Dean Thoreau]

i love noam chomsky.....thank god he is not in arizona

I don't understand....why do people automatically assume that illegal immigrant= Hispanic person????

there are plenty of canadians who r living in the USA illegally to avoid taxes, or because they have not paid their taxes,,,plenty of individuals from ireland, germany, austria, korea, china, vietnam, ....

well anyway, I am not fond of the law, but something needs to be done to stop the influx of illegal immigrants brought in to the USA by corporations so they can pay slave wages and exploit workers; tho i do think it would be better to fine the corporations so much they have to lower their stock dividends....but John McCain would not like that,,,his wife might lower his allowance.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

i love noam chomsky.....thank god he is not in arizona

I don't understand....why do people automatically assume that illegal immigrant= Hispanic person????

there are plenty of canadians who r living in the USA illegally to avoid taxes, or because they have not paid their taxes,,,plenty of individuals from ireland, germany, austria, korea, china, vietnam, ....

well anyway, I am not fond of the law, but something needs to be done to stop the influx of illegal immigrants brought in to the USA by corporations so they can pay slave wages and exploit workers; tho i do think it would be better to fine the corporations so much they have to lower their stock dividends....but John McCain would not like that,,,his wife might lower his allowance.

Very good point! There are undocumented workers from all over.

I don't know about Arizona, but in my state they don't pull over anyone for looking Canadian though.


I do not agree that we need to stop people from immigrating to the US, but I do agree that the huge corporations need to be fined for their hiring practices and their penchant for using indentured slaves.

[BornBronson]

I won't be boycotting them.Things got so bad,specially near the borders that something had to be done.Gov.Brewer did what she thought was necessary in order to gain attention to this serious immigration problem,because it is a huge problem in this county.God knows that Mr.Obama isn't doing much to solve it,well,he might if it gets him another 4 years in office.Actually,that may be what he's planning now.Oh,to have the latino vote,good call Mr.Obama.

We as Americans have to go by the law,what is so wrong with wanting people to go by the law?.Yes,there will be a few racist assholes out there,but you can't say the every law officer in Arizona now is a racist cop because he or she is pulling over those they suspect are in this country illegally,they are just doing their jobs,right?,right.

I have Mexican blood running through my veins.I have black hair and brown eyes and skin.If I get pulled over in Arizona someday because of that,trust me,I will have my camera rolling and I will be taking names and badge numbers.The lawyers will love me.But I have this gut instinct that they'll be having fun regardless if that day ever comes.

But I do understand why the good state of Arizona was 'forced' into this law.

This is just how I feel and I know not everyone will feel the same way,so be it.

[apretty]

ANYway....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BornBronson

I won't be boycotting them.Things got so bad,specially near the borders that something had to be done.Gov.Brewer did what she thought was necessary in order to gain attention to this serious immigration problem,because it is a huge problem in this county.God knows that Mr.Obama isn't doing much to solve it,well,he might if it gets him another 4 years in office.Actually,that may be what he's planning now.Oh,to have the latino vote,good call Mr.Obama.

We as Americans have to go by the law,what is so wrong with wanting people to go by the law?.Yes,there will be a few racist assholes out there,but you can't say the every law officer in Arizona now is a racist cop because he or she is pulling over those they suspect are in this country illegally,they are just doing their jobs,right?,right.

I have Mexican blood running through my veins.I have black hair and brown eyes and skin.If I get pulled over in Arizona someday because of that,trust me,I will have my camera rolling and I will be taking names and badge numbers.The lawyers will love me.But I have this gut instinct that they'll be having fun regardless if that day ever comes.

But I do understand why the good state of Arizona was 'forced' into this law.

This is just how I feel and I know not everyone will feel the same way,so be it.

I too have Mexican heritage, therefore why I give a shit..... I love my culture, I live my people, I love how hard we work, how deep we are, and how passionate we are.. So therefore when I see my people being targeted with more shit than they already put up with, I wanna be there front line with them.

[firie]

Originally Posted by BornBronson

We as Americans have to go by the law,what is so wrong with wanting people to go by the law?.Yes,there will be a few racist assholes out there,but you can't say the every law officer in Arizona now is a racist cop because he or she is pulling over those they suspect are in this country illegally,they are just doing their jobs,right?,right.

See, I beg to differ. If they assist in implementing racist laws, and take a paycheck for it, and don't speak out against it, or try to impact change, then they are indeed very racist cops.

And no, not all American citizens have to "go by the law", nor do they get busted for it when they are not following it. Millions upon millions of white people cross into the US through the Canadian borders illegally each year, and we will never ask our police to yank them out of cars and send them back to their country. Never. I don't suspect cops will be looking for British "illegals" (I quote that because we are very quick to point out Mexican "illegals" but never the ever so pale Brits!) when they are trying to "follow the law." It will be their own personal biases which are used to truly carry out the law, and, I am quite sure, as I said, white people (and there are millions but that is never highlighted because we are a racist country, and so we don't mind white immigration) won't be harassed, or jailed and then shipped up and out of here.

US Immigration "issues" or "problems" are always about brown and black skin and never, really ever about white skin--despite the millions who are here.