Senators warned of terrorist attack on US by July

[AtLast]

Probably a very ideological take on this, but when do Western nations transform the basis of what we stand for to Muslim nations as a means to thwart terrorist attacks?

[Andrew, Jr.]

Toughy,

The one point you stated is that we should say no to the body scans. I don't understand how the avg. joe can have a body scan at any airport, but for medical reasons is denied. That to me is just wrong. I do understand that.

As for the 3 packs of matches being allowed on a plane? I had no idea that was now allowed.

Heck, anytime I fly, I literally have to strip, and have some guy in security wond me. So, being body scanned would be much faster for me compared to stripping in the airport, then redressing and running for a plane.

Most of the time now, I fed. express my luggage ahead. Carryon is the bare min. I have to have. And I know with fed. exp. nobody is going thru my luggage.

Andrew

[Bit]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Probably a very ideological take on this, but when do Western nations transform the basis of what we stand for to Muslim nations as a means to thwart terrorist attacks?

When we start electing common-sense people to all high offices.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Probably a very ideological take on this, but when do Western nations transform the basis of what we stand for to Muslim nations as a means to thwart terrorist attacks?

Could you clarify what you mean here? There's a lot of different ways to read this and I'm not sure precisely what you mean. Specifically, what do you mean by "transform the basis of what we stand for..."

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Could you clarify what you mean here? There's a lot of different ways to read this and I'm not sure precisely what you mean. Specifically, what do you mean by "transform the basis of what we stand for..."

Cheers
Aj

You bet!

In saying "transform the basis of what we stand for...", I am speaking to the long-term negative, anti-Muslim stance of western nations perceived (and, to me, often, rightly so) by the Muslim world. Our lack of knowledge and down right refusal to become educated about Muslim life and religious perspectives feeds into so much of what fundamentalist Muslim terrorist organizations use to promote strikes agains us and many other western nations.

I in no way can accept the sexist nature of Muslim findamentalism, but also know that we cannot (and should not) be involved in trying to change belief systems of others or their social and political systems.

I honestly feel that in order to get to a place in which we can in part, thwart attacks, respect, knowledge and diplomacy must be utilzed. Having world religion curriculum in our schools is essential in order to combat stereotyping and hatred of Muslims (and other groups, worldwide). Community outreach is essential.

I do believe that we live in a dangerous world concerning terrorism and that taking steps with technology and intelligence gathering is critical. I just don't believe this is the entire answer.

I am riminded of this almost daily as I shop and do other business with Muslim businesses around me (and those with Muslim employees) and witness the obvious hatred of some of the other customers.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Probably a very ideological take on this, but when do Western nations transform the basis of what we stand for to Muslim nations as a means to thwart terrorist attacks?

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

You bet!

In saying "transform the basis of what we stand for...", I am speaking to the long-term negative, anti-Muslim stance of western nations perceived (and, to me, often, rightly so) by the Muslim world. Our lack of knowledge and down right refusal to become educated about Muslim life and religious perspectives feeds into so much of what fundamentalist Muslim terrorist organizations use to promote strikes agains us and many other western nations.

This isn't the basis of what Al-Qaeda and other fundamentalist Muslims are angry about. The root cause is ultimately Israel and our inital and ongoing support of that state.

"In 1998, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri co-signed a fatwa in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders which declared the killing of North Americans and their allies an "individual duty for every Muslim" to "liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Mecca) from their grip"."

This, of course, is the Reason That We Dare Not Name. The creation of the state of Israel in 1947 left thousands of Palestinians homeless, stateless, wounded, and dead. This has continued to the present day. They (and many other Arabs/Muslims) are very very angry about the whole Israel thing, and they are very very angry with us for being their staunchest ally.

Of course, this is all terribly oversimplified. Since 9/11, our entry into Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, Abu Graib, Guantanamo, et al, has given the average Muslim any number of things to be outraged by, without even taking Israel into consideration.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

You bet!

In saying "transform the basis of what we stand for...", I am speaking to the long-term negative, anti-Muslim stance of western nations perceived (and, to me, often, rightly so) by the Muslim world. Our lack of knowledge and down right refusal to become educated about Muslim life and religious perspectives feeds into so much of what fundamentalist Muslim terrorist organizations use to promote strikes agains us and many other western nations.

I agree in part. Our ignorance of the Muslim world is disconcerting. However, I also think that there's a trap that we could unknowingly stumble upon. I read Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" because I was curious what he could have said that would make someone put out a fatwa on him. While the book is irreverent there was nothing in there worthy of him having a death sentence put on his head. I did not see the Van Gogh movie that got him murdered in the street but all he did was make a movie about honor killings. And then, of course, there's been the various rows about cartoons showing the Prophet Mohammed. We should be very careful that we do not let others cow us into abandoning a core value.

I in no way can accept the sexist nature of Muslim findamentalism, but also know that we cannot (and should not) be involved in trying to change belief systems of others or their social and political systems.

I have to split the difference with you here. I think we have to be prepared to say "this is wrong, I don't care that it's a different culture but mutilating the genitals of young girls is wrong, full-stop". I think we MUST be prepared to do this and it concerns me that perhaps, we are not and, quite honestly, it scares me and makes me a little sad. Can you imagine, for instance, someone saying that Jim Crow was just part of Southern Culture and that while they are glad they don't have to live under that system in, say, Boston we cannot and should not be involved in trying to change that belief system? I can. I can very well imagine it and imagine how different my life could have been. That is why, although I may be called a Western Imperialist for this, I believe that there ARE truly universal human rights and that HUMAN rights trump CULTURES every time. So if some culture X engages in some behavior Y that, if my own culture did the same thing I would be out screaming in the streets (think honor killing, think female genital mutilation), then to be at all consistent I must condemn it in that other culture and take the heat that someone may call me an imperialist. That doesn't mean we invade other nations over their cultural practices but it *does* mean that don't make apologies for it either.

I honestly feel that in order to get to a place in which we can in part, thwart attacks, respect, knowledge and diplomacy must be utilzed. Having world religion curriculum in our schools is essential in order to combat stereotyping and hatred of Muslims (and other groups, worldwide). Community outreach is essential.

I think that will work for the people who aren't interested in attacking us. I think it might even dissuade some people from joining the camp of those who want to attack us. I don't think it will do *anything* for the people who already want to attack us.

I do believe that we live in a dangerous world concerning terrorism and that taking steps with technology and intelligence gathering is critical. I just don't believe this is the entire answer.

Here I would agree. It's not the entire answer but we should be prepared for those situations where it *is* the answer and when it is, we should admit that it will be messy, ugly and painful.

I am riminded of this almost daily as I shop and do other business with Muslim businesses around me (and those with Muslim employees) and witness the obvious hatred of some of the other customers.

I would agree with you again although, honestly, I think that hatred of the West in the Muslim world has more to do with US foreign policy and with our rather libertine culture than with how individual Westerners treat individual Muslims in their midst.

Cheers
Aj

[Words]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

Yes, in fact I do.

Read on......

http://bit.ly/czAUMW

Hardly a wave.

Anyways. There has indeed been an increase in the number of suicide attacks carried out by womyn. Perhaps the real question here though isn't how many but why.

Words

[wolfwalker]

Originally Posted by Toughy

the comments found after this article just reminded me how ignorant some people are.........and sadly they live in this country.........

If you want security on a plane..........do whatever the Israelis are doing..........nothing happens on their planes.

Say NO to body scans............ignorant crap in the same vein as take your shoes off and putting all your liquids in 3oz bottles in baggies......oh yeah and no bic lights but you can have up to 3 packs of matches.......

the israelis don't play around with bullshit. they know who you are before you get to the airport. you must be at their terminal 3 hours preflight. no exceptions. they check all baggage, loaded or carried on. they check you. ID and so on. they double check all information. If the slightest thing is not right.you do not get your ticket and you do not board that plane. and this is their philadelphia terminal. Once you land in Israel, you are checked again. there are armed soldiers everywhere. they are non threatening and quite friendly. however they are not to be fuked with.

add to that, every flight has security personal on board every plane. They take security very seriously.

once out of the airport. there are security check points and armed soldiers on the streets. again, non threatening and friendly but i would not play with them.

I spent 2 weeks in Israel. it was a wonderful trip. I had a very nice time but you become ever mindful of personal safety and security.


wolfwalker

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Words

Hardly a wave.

Anyways. There has indeed been an increase in the number of suicide attacks carried out by womyn. Perhaps the real question here though isn't how many but why.

Words

The why is easy--we don't expect it. If you know your enemy expects you to come by land, drop in by air or come by sea. If you know your enemy expects you to come through the door, go in through a window. If you know your enemy is expecting a man, send a woman.

As my old commanding officer used to say "never assume that the other guy owes you the favor of being either stupid or insane". Having women carry out the attacks that men were carrying out is very good tactics on their part.
Always do that which your opponent isn't expecting you to do and which is within your capabilities to pull off.

Cheers
Aj

[Words]

Originally Posted by wolfwalker

once out of the airport. there are security check points and armed soldiers on the streets. again, non threatening and friendly but i would not play with them. wolfwalker

Unless you happen to be a Palestinian in which case expect to be stopped every 500 meters or so 'just because'. Blue (Jerusalem ID)? You might get away with a frisking and a lil' bit of taunting. Orange (West Bank) ID and no permit? God help you.

[Words]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

The why is easy--we don't expect it. If you know your enemy expects you to come by land, drop in by air or come by sea. If you know your enemy expects you to come through the door, go in through a window. If you know your enemy is expecting a man, send a woman.

As my old commanding officer used to say "never assume that the other guy owes you the favor of being either stupid or insane". Having women carry out the attacks that men were carrying out is very good tactics on their part.
Always do that which your opponent isn't expecting you to do and which is within your capabilities to pull off.

Cheers
Aj

AJ,

With all due respect, that's too easy an answer. Yes, more womyn are being recruited to carry out attacks for strategic purposes, but surely you have to ask yourself not only why some womyn are agreeing to do it but also why some womyn are even volunteering to do it. No?

That's the 'why' I was talking about.

Words

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Words

AJ,

With all due respect, that's too easy an answer. Yes, more womyn are being recruited to carry out attacks for strategic purposes, but surely you have to ask yourself not only why some womyn are agreeing to do it but also why some womyn are even volunteering to do it. No?

That's the 'why' I was talking about.

Words

Why does anyone agree to do it?

Why do our men and women sign up for the armed services?

Because they so firmly believe in something that they are willing to fight for it.

I was in a Violence and Terror class, once, and then a course on the Psychology of Terrorism. One of the most serious things I took away from that course was the following exchange.

We were asked to raise our hands if there was something we would kill for--a person, an idea, an object.

Then, we were asked if there was something we would die for, or to protect.

Then, we were asked if they were the same thing.

If what you are willing to kill for and what you are willing to die for are the same. . . You have the potential to be a suicide bomber.


It's all in how you look at things. . .

[Words]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Why does anyone agree to do it?

Why do our men and women sign up for the armed services?

Because they so firmly believe in something that they are willing to fight for it.

I was in a Violence and Terror class, once, and then a course on the Psychology of Terrorism. One of the most serious things I took away from that course was the following exchange.

We were asked to raise our hands if there was something we would kill for--a person, an idea, an object.

Then, we were asked if there was something we would die for, or to protect.

Then, we were asked if they were the same thing.

If what you are willing to kill for and what you are willing to die for are the same. . . You have the potential to be a suicide bomber.


It's all in how you look at things. . .

I agree. Add to the above the sheer desperation factor and you end up with stories like these...

http://www.aztlan.net/women_martyrs.htm

[apretty]

i think the only obvious answer is to start building bomb shelters.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by apretty

i think the only obvious answer is to start building bomb shelters.

It's definitely ELEVATED here.

[Words]

Dress,

What I'm getting at is that the West is treating the symptoms of the disease called terrorism not the cause. Which of course, it will never do because as someone has already pointed out, right at the center - amongst other things - you find the situation in Israel. And so the attacks continue.

I don't approve of suicide attacks. Hell, I don't approve of violence in any form. But I do understand, having lived amongst people who literally have nothing to live for, why they happen.

Words

[Dominique]

Read about a woman who tells the story of how her father tried to make her into a suicide bomber.

http://news.bbc.co.uk

Article is under features on front page.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Words

AJ,

With all due respect, that's too easy an answer. Yes, more womyn are being recruited to carry out attacks for strategic purposes, but surely you have to ask yourself not only why some womyn are agreeing to do it but also why some womyn are even volunteering to do it. No?

That's the 'why' I was talking about.

Words

Ahh, I thought you were asking the operational 'why' question and not the psychological 'why'. As you and a number of others have pointed out, the motivation appears to be identical to the motivation of male suicide bombers.

Cheers
Aj

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Words

I don't approve of suicide attacks. Hell, I don't approve of violence in any form. But I do understand, having lived amongst people who literally have nothing to live for, why they happen.

Words

agreed, the most dangerous man is one with nothing left to lose. (which i'm pretty sure is why we/any country gives just enough aid to not make much of a difference.)